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Apple Said To Team With Visa, MasterCard On iPhone Wallet

An anonymous reader writes with news about a possible partnership between Apple and major credit card companies. Apple plans to turn its next iPhone into a mobile wallet through a partnership with major payment networks, banks and retailers, according a person familiar with the situation. The agreement includes Visa, MasterCard, and American Express and will be unveiled on Sept. 9 along with the next iPhone, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private. The new iPhone will make mobile payment easier by including a near-field communication chip for the first time, the person said. That advancement along with Touch ID, a fingerprint recognition reader that debuted on the most recent iPhone, will allow consumers to securely pay for items in a store with the touch of a finger.

33 of 187 comments (clear)

  1. As much as I hate Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This will be good because it might finally get businesses serious about exception NFC transactions. As long as it's not some proprietary bullshit on Apple's end, of course.

    1. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Isomorphic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is not really a surprising move from Apple. It was more or less a given once they rolled out TouchID.

      On the flip side, I've been listening to various Internet commentators go on and on about how Apple "has to have NFC" (reason: "because Android does"). Meanwhile, I've had an RFID credit card for approximately five years now, and, despite attempting to use it at numerous terminals marked with the RFID symbols, have only been successful in using it less than five times. Apparently no one running a retail payment terminal cares.

      Even if you are a hater, you have to admit Apple's entry into this market will help spur businesses to roll out NFC terminals, or switch on NFC on their existing terminals, or just make sure the NFC works.

    2. Re:As much as I hate Apple by ccguy · · Score: 4, Funny

      The "as much as I hate Apple" line is getting old. That's like a sentence that starts with "I'm not racist but...".

      Quite the opposite. It would like a sentence as "I'm a racist, but that nigger is right..."

    3. Re:As much as I hate Apple by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I use NFC for payment every day without issue. It's a mature, reliable technology, at least in most places. I think where there have been issues it's usually due to retailers insisting on using certain companies with new tech, instead of established ones.

      The real problem is the lack of standards. Japan has e-wallets, there is Google Wallet and now it looks like there will be a third and incompatible Apple wallet. What are the chances that other payment providers will be allowed to use NFC on Apple hardware for their own systems? Could you ditch the Apple wallet and install Google Wallet instead?

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:As much as I hate Apple by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Apparently no one running a retail payment terminal cares.

      Virtually every walmart, walgreens, CVS, and mcdonalds I've seen has one.

      This is a long time coming IMO, but I can still see the tinfoil hat crowd rejecting it. Too much FUD goes around about RFID (like those little credit card faraday cages that some infomercials sell) to make it seem somehow dangerous (I remember when the internet itself was considered dangerous by these types...anybody remember the Sandra Bullock movie "The Net"?)

      In reality though, RFID payment, at least in the Android implementation I've seen, is by far more secure than magnetic strips as it isn't susceptible to skimming or any other type of replay attack.

    5. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Camembert · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hahahaha! You're proud of being overcharged?

      That Stockholm syndrome is some really powerful shit...

      Clearly you are a hater. But why waste the energy? I use an iphone 4S since 3 years and I don't mindwhen others use whatever Android device. Good for them. Good for me.

    6. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Pieroxy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, in all honesty, Apple still has the best selling smartphone, undisputed. Granted, the 127 different models Samsung produces are selling more, but Apple makes three phones in the top 6, just like Samsung. The iPhone 5c is the #1.

      http://news.yahoo.com/apple-sa...

    7. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 2

      Maybe your bank has a poor implementation, Hong Kong has had a universal contactless payment through the Oyster card since the 90's. We've had it here in Australia for a couple of years and it works well (I use it every day for everything - packet of gum, glass of beer, groceries etc, and am starting to phase out my wallet). When the bugs are ironed out in your system, this will be the way transactions are done.

    8. Re:As much as I hate Apple by jonwil · · Score: 2

      I am in Australia and have Visa PayWave attached to my card yet I never use it (using EFTPOS instead) because there are fees attached to PayWave but not EFTPOS (with my bank at least) and because EFTPOS transactions show up faster and better on my online banking.

    9. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Bogtha · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Market share isn't the important factor though. iPhone sales have grown every year. Apple's profits have grown every year. They are the most profitable phone vendor by a long way. If that's failing, I'd love to fail as hard as Apple are.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    10. Re: As much as I hate Apple by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      More importantly, the underlying technology is totally different. VISA Europe is not at all the same as VISA USA. VISA in Europe is a coalition of banks, VISA USA is a private company. America has never rolled out EMV, making its banking industry a ridiculous joke compared to, well, everywhere else. You don't get reports of major European supermarket chains getting their PoS systems hacked and magstripes skimmed like you do in the US, because EMV is a much more secure system.

      The NFC payment cards that are rolling out around the world (outside USA) now are basically a variant of EMV/Chip and PIN. The underlying crypto is the same. The card signs a challenge from the terminal. They're upgrading to elliptic curve crypto at the moment actually, not sure if all NFC cards do that or not but it would not surprise me. NFC as tried by Google in America is actually a very minor variant on just sending your magstripe data via radio. I believe the CVC code rotates (three digits of entropy lol) and the tech is based on a Secure Element hard-wired to the NFC radio. But the phone has minimal control over the actual payment transaction, thus doesn't add much value beyond being a big battery, and that's why the tech largely stalled. Also they screwed up the compatibility testing and the terminals were full of bugs that meant transactions just sort of randomly failed.

      So don't be fooled. The "NFC payments" that we know outside of North America is totally different to what they call "NFC payments", which is an unfortunate piece of linguistic confusion.

    11. Re:As much as I hate Apple by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 2

      Your card was declined because they're totally different and incompatible technologies. NFC payment cards from outside the USA aren't the same as "NFC payments" inside the USA (which require mobile phones as far as I can tell).

    12. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Camembert · · Score: 2

      Boogeyman 'samsung' isn't out to get your device, just like 'IBM' wasn't out to get your mac.

      This was in fact exactly my point.

    13. Re:As much as I hate Apple by wbr1 · · Score: 2

      That sounds like it should be in Blazing Saddles.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    14. Re: As much as I hate Apple by jrumney · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some of my best friends use Macs...

    15. Re:As much as I hate Apple by Bogtha · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're really setting up a no win situation here. If they don't perform positive ethical acts, then they are unethical. If they do, then it's just "brand management bullet points".

      It's funny though, how we have two people here - one calling them unethical, and one pointing out ethical things that they have done - and you perceive this as "there's somebody here worshipping the brand". Not two people with different opinions. One person with a suspect opinion. That's an odd perception.

      Also, if anybody is astroturfing, I'd lay my money on the anonymous coward and not the person with a Slashdot account that is several years old with excellent karma.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    16. Re:As much as I hate Apple by EzInKy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only fair price to enable spending your own money is zero.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    17. Re:As much as I hate Apple by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

      The real problem is the lack of standards. Japan has e-wallets, there is Google Wallet and now it looks like there will be a third and incompatible Apple wallet.

      There are standards. Japan is its own world, but the Google Wallet and ISIS (a consortium of mobile network operators and banks who created the ISIS wallet -- yes they're looking for a new name) relies on standard EMV payment protocols -- slightly modified by the US Visa, MC, AMEX and Discover organizations, but not incompatibly so. Apple will follow the EMV standards as well, or they'll get nowhere, because retailers are a slow-moving, cost-conscious group.

      Visa and MasterCard announced two years ago that they'll implement the "liability shift" the end of 2015, which means that from 2016 onward 100% of fraud will be charged to whichever entity in the chain (merchant, merchant acquirer, clearing house, issuer) does not have the EMV smart chip technology implemented. Since merchants get stuck with 98% of fraud, and other links in the chain are moving slowly, this will provide a huge incentive for merchants to install EMV-capable point of sale terminals. That doesn't require them to deploy NFC-capable terminals, but they will, and many of them are.

      Not even Apple is capable of creating an entirely new payment ecosystem. They'll play ball with the banks and card associations, or they'll go nowhere.

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    18. Re: As much as I hate Apple by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

      The users are winning, because they're not being roped into a monoculture.

      In the non-Apple PC market, users are losing. The only distinguishing feature between different PCs is the price, so we have a race to the lowest price. This may be helpful to some degree to people without money, but most people end up with a rubbish PC, even if they could afford something much better, because they just can't buy it.

      Apple is now making more than 50% of all profits from computer hardware sales. Because nobody else manages to create and sell a product that people would be willing to pay good money for. When people buy a MacBook Air to run Windows on it, you see how pathetic the PC hardware market has become.

    19. Re:As much as I hate Apple by mjwx · · Score: 2

      I am in Australia and have Visa PayWave attached to my card yet I never use it (using EFTPOS instead) because there are fees attached to PayWave but not EFTPOS (with my bank at least) and because EFTPOS transactions show up faster and better on my online banking.

      Australian here, I'll explain this one.

      In Australia you have three options when you pay by card, Savings, Cheque and Credit. These define what network the transaction goes through and that determines what fees and charges are applied to the transaction.

      Savings and Cheque are part of the EFTPOS network and have a small per transaction fee (usually in the vicinity of A$0.20) that the merchant absorbs. This network is Aus/NZ specific and is not related to similarly named networks overseas.
      Credit routes the transaction though the Visa/Mastercard network. This has a per transaction fee plus a percentage of the transaction taken as a merchant service fee (anywhere between 0.5-4%, some high end cards like Amex have a 6% feee). It is entirely legal for a merchant to pass on this fee in Australia (and the Visa/Mastercard terms of service dont override Australian law). Now even if the merchant absorbs this fee, you end up paying in the form of higher prices (that are already too damn high in Oz)

      Paypass/paywave automatically routes through credit, so you automatically get the higher fee.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  2. Bad timing, Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Considering iCloud was hacked and massive amounts of nude celebrity photos were taken from it, people probably aren't too trusting of your security at this point.

    1. Re:Bad timing, Apple by Bogtha · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's just 4chan rumours at the moment. No point in taking them seriously unless there's confirmation.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    2. Re:Bad timing, Apple by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      It appears to be confirmed now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/...

      Worryingly some of the affected claim that the images which were leaked had been deleted years ago. If you want your iCloud account deleted rather than just made inactive you have to call Apple and get a tech to call you back.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  3. Nothing really new by Stormwatch · · Score: 2

    What's the big deal? Mobile payment exists since the late 1990s.

    1. Re:Nothing really new by bogaboga · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's the big deal?

      Hundreds of millions of potential customers will have this technology on Apple's [single] platform. Keyword: "Single."

      Now don't talk of Android because we know it's all fragmented.

      Blackberry? Well, this is of no consequence.

      Microsoft? It still doesn't matter.

      Who else? Got your answer: Anyone cares about this? I doubt.

      Mobile payment exists since the late 1990s.

      Yes, but Apple's gonna finally do it "right."

    2. Re:Nothing really new by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Android fragmentation is irrelevant. The number of NFC enabled Android phones vastly outnumbers the number of Apple NFC enabled phones, which is currently zero. Even if the iPhone six sells as well as the iPhone 5 before it the market for Apple vs. Android payments (and all NFC enabled Android devices support it, regardless of OS version) will probably force Apple to be compatible at some stage.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Nothing really new by c · · Score: 2

      Hundreds of millions of potential customers will have this technology on Apple's [single] platform. Keyword: "Single."

      Seeing how NFC typically needs hardware support, it would be starting with this generation of devices, and unless Apple does something different from the usual "downgrade existing top tier models and drop the bottom" then only the top end and most expensive models for the next couple years will have it.

      Unless they sell a lower-priced iWatch or some other dongle that "expands" the existing iPhone range to support NFC (which would actually be pretty smart of them, so I wouldn't be surprised) or unless the last couple generations of devices have sold with disabled NFC hardware buried inside, it's not unreasonable to say that there will be NFC versus non-NFC fragmentation for at least another year.

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  4. It is time someone belled the cat. But wish.. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Informative
    I am really glad something like this is long over due. But I wish we are not jumping from duopoly to a monopoly.

    The cost of handling transactions is steadily diminishing. There was a time it would cost you something between 49$ and 149$ to place a single trade. It dropped to well below 10$ when I was still trading. Would not be surprised if they give you money to place a trade or something now. Compare it to the debit card transaction.

    When it comes to creditcard I would not begrudge the 2% to 5% fee charged to the merchants. The credit card companies are essentially advancing an unsecured loan, and it would cost the individual merchants much more to check and advance credit to their customers. (Of course it there is some real competition the percentage might come down). But it is the debit card transaction that is atrocious. Money comes from the bank, there is no risk involved. There was a very nice system, including PIN numbers to manage the POS terminals. Way back when stock trade was 49$, it was 25 cent per transaction irrespective of the size of transaction. This should have become zero. But that is not what happened.

    The Visa and Mastecard combined to discourage ATM cards and the POS terminals and undermined the system. They made debit and credit card to go through the same system. And the merchants were forced to pay 2% transaction fees on risk free money transfer from one bank to another.

    The time is ripe, with prepaid cards and stored value cards for really cheap and free micro transactions. It took the clout of Apple to hit the music executives on their head and make them wake up, smell the coffee and realize the days of selling single track with 10 more useless tracks for 19$ per CD are gone. It might take such a juggernaut like Apple to make the bankers come around the bend and give up their 2% commission on risk free transactions.

    But I wish we are not going from the duopoly of MC + Visa to a monopoly of AppStore. Well one thing at a time. Once the bankers get used to lower fees commensurate with the cost of transactions, may be alternatives to AppStore might emerge, and the system might become more open.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:It is time someone belled the cat. But wish.. by Mr_Silver · · Score: 2

      There was a very nice system, including PIN numbers to manage the POS terminals. Way back when stock trade was 49$, it was 25 cent per transaction irrespective of the size of transaction. This should have become zero. But that is not what happened.

      The 25 cent transaction fee is charged by the acquiring bank, not Visa and Mastercard - whose fees for debit are typically 1 cent per transaction as they are a volume based business.

      The reason that acquirers charge is because they incur costs associated with that transaction (including, but not limited to, interchange fees). If they didn't charge, it would fail as a viable business model.

      Pre-paid cards still have to use Visa or MC to get the request for the money from the acquirer (who has the relationship with the merchant and typically provides the terminal) to the card issuer (the bank that supplied the pre-paid card).

      Regarding AppStore vs MC+Visa, in order for Apple to be able to accept payments directly they would have to get an e-money licence so they could issue virtual debit or credit cards for use on their phones. By doing so, they'd still need the rails that Visa and MC provide - unless they really want to get into the business of connecting themselves to all the banks worldwide (aka becoming a payment processor).

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  5. Re:ugh by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

    easily lost stolen hacked phone equipped with a radio broadcasting your CC info 24/7

    Easily hacked? How would you go about hacking an iPhone?

  6. Re:Why? Nobody uses NFC payments by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 2

    NFC payment cards in Australia/Europe cryptographically sign a challenge from the terminal, using basically standard crypto. It's EMV all the way. In-person magstripe payments are carefully controlled and risk analysed to ensure they only occur if, for example, the card is broken - or outright banned.

    NFC payments in the USA involve the phone sending regular magstripe data to the terminal, with only the CVC code being some kind of cryptographic derivative - a three digit number (less than 1000). The reason for this crazy setup is so merchants don't have to update their backend/PoS systems that still expect magstripe data. There is no plan to perform a complete upgrade thus old style transactions cannot be phased out. It's a dramatically less secure system.

  7. Re:Why all the negativity by frnic · · Score: 2

    The negativity is because this is Slashdot. The second reason is that it is about Apple.

    "Nothing new" - yeah, and cell phones existed years before iPhone - how did that work out.

    Haters will hate.

  8. Next Step, iChip! by docwatson223 · · Score: 2

    The recent Cartoon Channel show, 'Chippy', conceived and sponsored by a joint effort between Apple, the Department of Homeland Security and the Internal Revenue Service, has reached a critical mass in terms of viewership according to a recent media rating survey by the National Government Network. The show, which promotes the implantation and use of the Apple iChip and shows DHS agents busting unregistered gun owners, smugglers, drug dealers, black market medical personnel, Constitutionalist terrorists, and non-'Chippers' has become a significant PR success and increased the demand for chip implementation in the core demographic of 8-12 and, surprisingly, adults as old as 70. The show's tagline 'Chippy is your friend!' has spawned t-shirts, window stickers, screen savers, and a host of DRM-free online episodes as well as a counter-culture of subversive anti-Chippie paraphernalia. From the Pacific White House in Hawaii, the President declared the show a clear success and commented that the revised chip requirement under his Affordable Care Act was 'a keystone in the future of healthcare and commerce in the United States'. In a related story, Apple CEO Tim Cook announced that the next revision of the iChip will include wireless and cell phone connectivity and a new basic neural interface along with further enhancements to it's current healthcare, credit, commerce, and GPS abilities. The iChip has boosted Apple stock to well over the $1100 mark as of the close of yesterday's announcement at Mac World San Francisco.