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German Court: Google Must Stop Ignoring Customer E-mails
jfruh writes If you send an email to support-de@google.com, Google's German support address, you'll receive an automatic reply informing you that Google will not respond to or even read your message, due to the large number of emails received at that address. Now a German court has ruled (PDF) that this is an unacceptable response, based on a German law saying that companies must provide a means for customers to communicate with them.
Update: 09/12 15:47 GMT by S : Updated to fix the links.
Did a mod even check the link to see if it went to what it claimed?
The link in the article goes to something completely different (free wifi laptop).
from what i understand of the definition of "customer", a "customer" means "someone who is paying for a service". here, there's no payment involved, therefore there is no contract of sale. i would imagine that it's fairly safe to say that we're most definitely *not* quotes customers of google quotes.
if on the other hand these individuals are actually _paying_ google for service and are not receiving a response, _then_ i could understand.
Is a web site visitor a customer? Or does some form of payment for services need to be made? What about android users, does having an android device make someone a customer or would google need to sell the OS for that to count?
It sounds like the Judge ruled that any person who uses a google service is a customer even if that service is free. It seems like that is a win for the consumer, but I have to wonder if that was the correct decision in this case. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to need to be a paying customer for a company to expend resources to adequately respond to your communications. Some questions can cause hours of follow up work to send a reply.
If Google decides to discontinue all Google services in Germany as a result, would that really be a "win" for the German consumer?
The only difference between Google and most customer service today is that at least Google are honest about it and tell you that you will be ignored. Most other companies will just ignore your email and not tell you or leave you in a call queue for so long that you end up having to hang up and go do something else.
Sure they are customers. They are paying with their personal data, which Google hords and then sells to third parties. Without the people who use Google's free services, Google wouldn't earn a cent.
No, Google cannot.
Translation:
You can hardly more clear than that. And if Google answers:
Google will not respond to or even read your message
it definitely breaks the law, since this is not even a one sided communication.
You should ask for your money back.
You should ask for all your data back.
However, Google has quite a strong monopoly. That will make their case a lot weaker.
On the surface this sounds like a great decision for the google users in Germany. But do you really think Google is going to change their ways? Or spend one dime to appeal this ruling? Nope! They'll just change their automated reply to "Thank you for your issue/concern. We'll look into it and get back to you if necessary."
If they don't act, they will be fined. However, in Germany being fined doesn't mean you paid for what you are doing wrong, it means the court did something to get your attention. So if after being fined they don't act, the fine will be increased until they act. There isn't really a limit, because not changing their ways tells the court "this fine was so small that we can afford to ignore it, fine us more!".
In the US, if you receive something of monetary value in exchange for a service, you have received income, and that income is taxed. If Google is not being taxed on the data it receives for its free services, then the government itself is saying there is no monetary value on that data. No value means no sale, and thus no customer. Just because you have a contract does not require that one party be a customer.
WOW! New all-time record. You didn't even read the TITLE!
The users have not in fact brought any custom to google. They're receiving a free good or service and should not be entitled to anything.
German law disagrees.
A customer is someone who receives a service from a company, even if the (monetary) price for that service is zero.
That doesn't make you a customer. That makes you a charity recipient.
In any case the general relationship between Google users (as opposed to paying advertising clients) is that the user is properly thought of as a vendor or supplier. We supply data to Google in exchange for in-kind services (email, search etc) which Google then turns into a product which they sell to their paying customers. Customers are people who pay you and vendors are people you pay. Google "pays" users for their data with online services which is a sort of barter really. They then process that data into a product they can sell to their customers which generally are advertisers.
What sometimes confuses people is that Google also sells IT services (like data storage or corporate email) but what that simply means is that someone can be both a vendor and a customer depending on the specific transaction. This is perfectly normal. It's not at all uncommon for companies to sell stuff to each other and have both a vendor relationship and a customer relationship but they can be only one or the other for a given transaction. The key distinction to determine whether they are the vendor or customer is (generally) the direction of the cash flow for the particular transaction in question. In cases in-kind exchanges its a little fuzzier so you have to look at what they do with the item received.
Of course I'm one of slashdot's customers. Slashdot would be out of business if we (the customers) stopped coming to their website.
I'm an accountant.
Unless you are sending cash to slashdot, your relationship to them is most accurately described as that of a vendor or a supplier if you prefer that term. You provide data to slashdot in exchange for entertainment which is a form of in-kind exchange. Slashdot then uses that data to sell advertising to their paying customers. From an accounting perspective by providing this forum to you, you would be on slashdot's books as either Cost of Goods Sold or more likely some kind of Operating Expense. This effectively makes you a vendor to them, not a customer because they don't sell you anything.
It can get a little murkier if you have a paid subscription but they still advertise to you because then you become both a customer and a vendor. Which you are depends on the transaction in question. Logically it would make sense to have the subscription be treated as a contra-expense because then you don't have to have this dual relationship. But it's more likely that they would book it as income and have the user on the books as both a customer and (indirectly) as a vendor.
Your attitude does not matter. What matters is that Google could face fines and may, in the ultimate consequence, be forbidden to do any more business in Germany. I am pretty sure they would care about that.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Which incidentally the court ruling states. Seems there are still quite a few functionally illiterates on Slashdot.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I am mostly pro-Google and against many weirdnesses we have here against companies with our laws. I try to explain what is going on here.
In Germany a company which has a web presence needs to have a so-called "Impressum" with essential business data and a way to contact them in a reasonable time. When there is a phone number, it needs to be answered. Emails need to be answered soon, too, when there is only email address as contact possibility. The impressum is regulated very stricty to prevent fraud and anti-competetive practices. So it is generally not that bad, except that it abolishes anonymity.
My opinion here: In fact, Google is avoiding its users. Have you ever tried to contact them? In this case it might be a good idea to give people the possibility to contact Google somehow.
And to the people joking about Slashdot. Yes, also Slashdot would need to have an Impressum page when it had a subsidiary in Germany.