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New Research Casts Doubt On the "10,000 Hour Rule" of Expertise

First time accepted submitter Scroatzilla writes What makes someone rise to the top in music, games, sports, business, or science? This question is the subject of one of psychology's oldest debates. Malcolm Gladwell's '10,000 hours' rule probably isn't the answer. Recent research has demonstrated that deliberate practice, while undeniably important, is only one piece of the expertise puzzle—and not necessarily the biggest piece.

13 of 192 comments (clear)

  1. Agreed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I mastered masturbation in far less time.

  2. In our time and age? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you want to succeed in anything, forget practicing and start networking.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  3. What Malcolm Gladwell REALLY Said About The 10,000 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Gladwell never said you needed 10,000 hours to be an expert...
    http://problogservice.com/2012/03/15/what-malcolm-gladwell-really-said-about-the-10000-hour-rule/

  4. So many practice doing it wrong by raymorris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The article had logic approximately like this:

    Doing it for a long time doesn't always make you an expert.
    Therefore, it's genetics that make you an expert.

    All around me, I see my co-workers doing it _wrong_ for a long time. I just discovered that one guy who has been in the same job for over ten years was completely unaware of some of the most basic concepts anyone starting in the field should know. This is a database administrator and developer who didn't understand that there is a difference between the number zero, the empty string, and null. He just had never heard of null, it seems. After I explained the idea of null to him, he said our database system (DB2) doesn't support nulls. DB2 has supported nulls since it's first release in 1983. This is a guy who has spent 10-20 years as a professional DB2 developer.

    He's had lots of practice, but apparently never opened a book, including the manual. So he's been practicing it wrong for 10-20 years. Surprise, he's not an expert!

    1. Re:So many practice doing it wrong by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's why there's a difference between 20 years experience and 1 yar experience repeated 20 times. Too bad that escapes too many (hr in particular)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  5. Re:Gladwell by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't agree. I think Gladwell is the master of thought-provoking oversimplified perhaps-sort-of obvious but counter-cultural idea. For example, in this case, although we have the saying, "practice makes perfect", our culture is disposed to believe that some people are simply better than others, and if you're not gifted, you just shouldn't try. Gladwell sets off on an argument that, no, if you spend enough time practicing you can be great. He oversimplifies the whole thing, but probably (I haven't read this book, actually) puts some admission that practice isn't *everything* and people do also have innate gifts. If you really researched it, you'd probably find that he has an interesting point that isn't complete enough to be "the truth".

    At least, this is the pattern I've noticed in his other books. And... I don't really mind it. It would be unwise to just read Gladwell's books and take everything he's saying on faith, but I'm not sure that's what he expects you to do. I think he might just be shooting for "thought-provoking", and in that, he's successful.

  6. Re:The difference between skill and talent by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Funny

    You can train a skill, but you cannot learn talent.

    And Justin Bieber is proof that a lack of both doesn't correlate with success.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  7. Re:Gladwell by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Gladwell sets off on an argument that, no, if you spend enough time practicing you can be great.

    The problem is that this is nonsense. Unless you have a LOT of innate talent, you are unlikely to be "great" at anything. When I was in 7th grade, I joined the school band, and I practiced and practiced and practiced. One day the school music teacher took me aside, and advised me to quit. She explained that I basically sucked at music, and no amount of practice was going to make much difference. She suggested that I go join the computer club instead. That was the best advice I ever had, and it changed my life.

  8. No rule by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hate hearing described this supposed "10,000 hour Malcom Gladwell rule". There's no such thing. Gladwell has long been trying to explain that the 10,000 hour rule was not a recipe for success, only a requirement for mastery. The fact is that mastery is no guarantee of success.

    And lately, Gladwell has been giving a much greater emphasis to the notion of love for what you're doing being a more direct quality of those who are successful. And it's more than really just "love". There's an element of intent and desire and yes, love. What made Michael Jordan shoot free throws for hours and hours after it had gotten dark when he was 12 years old? And continue to do so when he was 27 and already a world champion? Why did Charlie Parker disappear for three years and practice 13 hours every day after he had been so badly embarrassed on the bandstand for not knowing how to play in more than one key? Part of it was his desire to "show those guys" after his earlier failure. And part of Michael Jordan's incentive was his famous (or infamous) almost pathological competitiveness. But those things are never enough. Because spite and desire can only take you so far, and they both have negative effects. They'll eventually eat you up (as may have been the case in Bird's example, because clearly his drug use and self-destructiveness would seem to indicate that something was eating him up). But to put the time in requires love. Doing something because it's something you can't imagine not doing. Because that's how you see yourself - that's who you are. The possible financial rewards are not nearly certain enough for that to be the sole motivation. I will bet that Michael saw himself as a basketball player and Bird as a jazz man well before they were on their way to success.

    There's no guarantee for success, but there are recipes and the ingredients are often kind of specific. The good news, is that if you really love doing something, it improves the chances the recipe will be successful. Kind of like garlic and butter. There's no guarantee that a dish will be delicious, but if you start with garlic and butter, the odds improve, you know?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  9. Is 10,000 your personal peak, perhaps? by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps 10,000 hours is what it takes to reach your personal level of mastery. The average or the genius - once you've put in your 10,000 (or 6000 or 14,000; 10,000 is only one significant digit), you've essentially gotten as good as you will every get, down to some number far to the right of the decimal.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Is 10,000 your personal peak, perhaps? by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, Beethoven for example continued improving his skill until near his death. Long after he'd written pieces of great genius.

      Gladwell's observation was that people who achieve greatness work 10,000 hours.....which doesn't mean that you will reach greatness if you work 10,000 hours, but that if you don't, you certainly won't. More interestingly, he observes that working 10,000 hours is a greater indicator of success than IQ.

      I remember reading somewhere also, that it helps to have a master teacher who knows how to guide you through those 10,000 hours. Otherwise you might be swinging with the wrong golf club for half those hours.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  10. Re:More eugenics propaganda? by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    meh.

    My interpretation of the article: You can't teach height, but tall untrained basketball players can be beaten by shorter experts. To be the "world's best" you need both.

    There is a difference between "expert" and "world's best".

    When it comes to expert, guided practice and training is generally enough. Even if you are short I can still teach you to be an expert at basketball. Others can still teach you how to block, how to dribble, how to pass, how to shoot, how to referee, how to coach, and how to be an expert.

    When it comes to world's best, sure, there is often a genetic component. Most people, no matter how much you train them, will never become the world's best. They can be expert and still judge and teach and work the field, being expert is not the same as being world's best. Similarly, some people, no matter how much they try to work with numbers, struggle to handle them intuitively. Given enough effort they can be taught all the way through college math and become experts, but that doesn't mean they'll become the world's expert on mathematics. Just because someone is tall doesn't make them a world-class basketball player, training is still needed. Just because someone has a pretty voice doesn't make them an automatic world's best vocalist, just because someone has a more intuitive grasp of spatial representations doesn't make them a world renown mathematician, training is still needed.

    You can become expert with guided practice, even without much natural ability. To become world's best you need both guided practice AND a genetic predisposition.

    --
    //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  11. Re:In my experience most mastery is at the start by rioki · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually the article is trying to discredit the notion that "you can take anybody, let them practice 10k h and you get an expert." What they are basically stating is what everybody knows intuitively, some people pick up a skill easier than others (up 22x) and they affirm that is is genetic in nature. (if one twin can draw well, so can it's sibling.) What remains is, no mater what talent you have you still need to invest much time (e.g. 10k h) until you will master the craft.

    Oddly, I think few people believed the original formulation, that you could take anybody and make a master. Nevertheless the 10k hour rule is in essence correct, even if the actual number may differ. You need to practice much to master a craft. The thing that distorts the picture is that only people with a minimum level of talent and passion will actually be willing to invest the time. You can not really compare someone with 10k practice with someone with 2k practice, since both probably have above average talent.