Slashdot Mirror


Living On a Carbon Budget: The End of Recreation As We Know It?

Lasrick writes Dawn Stover looks at unrealistic expectations and the distribution of limited energy resources: 'This is a question that should move from the fringes of the energy debate to its very heart. Economists and energy experts shy away from issues of equity and morality, but climate change and environmental justice are inseparable: It's impossible to talk intelligently about climate without discussing how to distribute limited energy resources. It's highly unlikely that the world can safely produce almost five times as much electricity by 2035 as it does now—which is what it would take to provide everyone with a circa-2010 American standard of living, according to a calculation by University of Colorado environmental studies professor Roger Pielke Jr. The sooner policy makers accept this reality, the sooner they can get to work on a global solution that meets everyone's needs. First, though, they need to understand the difference between needs and wants.' Not something most people even think about.

29 of 652 comments (clear)

  1. Lots of cheap carbon stuff by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Hiking, working out, having sex.

    Also, I bet computer gaming uses a lot less carbon than most pre-computer leisure activities.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Lots of cheap carbon stuff by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can see individual power consumption coming down a lot in the next decade. The next computer I buy is going to have a 5 watt CPU in it, because that's all I need. The computer I have now has a CPU that requires 65 watts. I'm slowly replacing my light bulbs with LED ones as the old ones burn out. My old 27 inch CRT TV is gone, and now I have a 50 inch TV that uses a fraction of the power. More enjoyment, and I'm using less power than ever. Even reading a book on an eReader would probably be much more carbon friendly than reading a book would have been 20 years ago. 20 years ago, it would have required a 40 watt lightbulb. A modern eReader provides it's own backlight and probably runs on less than 5 watts.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Lots of cheap carbon stuff by mjm1231 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually you only need to pear the population down by about 20 million. The top 2% of the world's population consume something like 90-95% of the resources, they are extremely expensive to have around. Remove them and everyone's standard of living jumps significantly.
       

      Except standard of living = energy consumption (or nearly so). So removing the top 2% to increase someone else's standard of living doesn't solve the problem, it just changes who is causing it.

      --
      Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
    3. Re:Lots of cheap carbon stuff by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Children are and should be a decision made by a woman

      It actually takes two to create children. The fact that 9 Months is taken residence in the womb (and subject to termination right up and sometimes passed delivery), is simply a liberal convenience. Two Males cannot create a child, neither can two females. Both are inconvenient biological facts liberals don't actually like (its unfair, you homophobic bastard).

      And children tend to do much better with two parents actively involved in raising them to adulthood, everything else equal. While a single woman COULD raise a child, typically most women do not have the luxury of means to provide for a child by themselves. So, unless you're talking about just the 9 months of pregnancy, I would suggest that children should be a choice made by a man, and a woman together in mutual agreement whenever possible.

      Yeah, I am a hater for wanting the best for children.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Lots of cheap carbon stuff by swillden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Instead, we'll probably breed right up to the edge of capacity and then die in billions when something unexpected happens.

      No, we won't. The developed world is already zero or negative in population growth. Even better, it appears that this fact is primarily caused not by a cultural decision to have fewer kids, but by economics. It appears that the primary determining factors in the growth rate of a society are health and wealth: If children are likely to survive, people don't feel the need to breed lots of replacements, so they have fewer kids and invest more in them. Also, if people are wealthy and have a high standard of living, then maintaining that standard of living for a small family is much easier than for a large family.

      So, the developed world is already not growing in population -- much of Europe is negative, and the US is at zero growth when you remove immigration -- and the developing world is rapidly getting healthier and wealthier. In fact, the numbers show that we've already passed "peak child", meaning the year in which the most new babies are born, and the birth rate is already beginning to decline, globally. The population is still growing because right now the world's population is heavily weighted toward the young, with almost half of the population under 25. But with about two billion people being born in each new generation, and a lifespan of approximately five generations, it appears that we're on track to peak at about 10B people, before we start declining.

      That's if we don't change anything, of course. What we know for sure is that things will change, but we don't know what.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    5. Re:Lots of cheap carbon stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two females can most certainly create a child, thanks to the large number of college males willing to jizz in a cup for beer money. Given that scenario, the male involved is really irrelevant to the "decision" and anything thereafter. That's strong enough to say the men don't matter.

      And I agree that it's better to raise a child with two parents. Since there are (and will forever be) parents who aren't actually good at raising children, and since sometimes those kids are put up for adoption, there are also households with two dads that qualify as two parent households as well.

      If you want the best for children, let any loving couple willing to sire or adopt raise them. Until there are no kids left in the foster care system, your "kids need a mom and a dad" argument is both scientifically and morally unsound.

    6. Re:Lots of cheap carbon stuff by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It actually takes two to create children.

      That hasn't been true for a few decades.

      The fact that 9 Months is taken residence in the womb (and subject to termination right up and sometimes passed delivery), is simply a liberal convenience. Two Males cannot create a child, neither can two females.

      You haven't been keeping up with science and technology.

      Both are inconvenient biological facts liberals don't actually like (its unfair, you homophobic bastard).

      Ah yes, liberals. Of course, a discussion about population and procreation is best framed in the context of political leanings.

      And children tend to do much better with two parents actively involved in raising them to adulthood, everything else equal. While a single woman COULD raise a child, typically most women do not have the luxury of means to provide for a child by themselves.

      Really children tend to do much better with a village actively involved in raising them to adulthood, everything else equal. While a mere couple COULD raise a child, typically most couples do not have the luxury of culture to provide for a child by themselves.

      You choose to draw the line somewhere between "single mother" and "both biological parents". However, this is arbitrary and ignores things like the efficacy of adoptive parenthood as well as what we know about traditional childrearing (as was practiced by humans prior to the green revolution). That's fine, but don't pretend that your arbitrary distinction is the only "correct" distinction. Different ways of raising children work differently, and simply because you deem one method to be sufficient or ideal does not mean that this is true for all parents or all children.

      So, unless you're talking about just the 9 months of pregnancy, I would suggest that children should be a choice made by a man, and a woman together in mutual agreement whenever possible.

      You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not making a convincing argument by setting them forth without identifying a reasonable basis for having them.

      Yeah, I am a hater for wanting the best for children.

      And of course, you know what's best for children. Everyone else, they're just idiots. Or worse still, liberals.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  2. Navel gazing by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While environmental studies professors continue to pump out ready excuses for imposing increasing economic feudalism in Europe and North America, China and India are going to build out nuclear power and produce energy. I doubt they'll be dissuaded from trying because of anything this professor says.

    When people like this say, "the world can't" remember that they actually mean, "we aren't going to let you."

    1. Re:Navel gazing by halivar · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Speaking as a non-libertarian, I don't think you know what a libertarian is.

    2. Re:Navel gazing by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Speaking as a Libertarian who has run for office, Ill say he has no idea what a libertarian is!

    3. Re:Navel gazing by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1, Insightful

      While environmental studies professors continue to pump out ready excuses for imposing increasing economic feudalism in Europe and North America, China and India are going to build out nuclear power and produce energy. I doubt they'll be dissuaded from trying because of anything this professor says.

      When people like this say, "the world can't" remember that they actually mean, "we aren't going to let you."

      This. I wish I had mod points today to mod this up.

    4. Re:Navel gazing by bigpat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not this libertarian. A free market requires freedom not feudalism. And the only way capitalism is an efficient system is when capital is spread out into as many hands as possible. Capitalism is meant as the economic form of democracy in the sense that many hands will most often make better decisions than central planners or kings. Free Market Capitalism isn't meant as a winner take all sport of who can accumulate the most capital in order to buy Hawaii... ie Larry's World. For Free Market Capitalism to work as a system there have to be high taxes on the most rich and/or on vast estates as a way to periodically re-level the playing field and keep some equity in the system.

      In the case of nuclear power I think we need a government subsidized build out to insure longer term stability of our energy supply in a carbon free future rather than leave it up to short term whims of profiteers. With nuclear materials the risks and benefits are just too high to leave it to the free market alone.

    5. Re:Navel gazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm all for individual rights, but not for deluded Libertarian ideals. Limiting government and moving the power to private entities (AKA corporations, families and clans, owners of resouces) is demonstrably not the way to go. Because self regulating corporations have such a shining and spotless history.

      Individual rights are worth diddly if I am poisoned with every breath I take, every sip of water I drink and every bite of food I eat due to an absence of government oversight (yeah right, sure the corporations will make sure my air, water and food is clean)

      Individual rights are worth diddly if I have to leave my house armed and in a bulletproof vehicle because the entire population is walking around with automatic weapons and the courts have been so emasculated that it's impossible to convict anyone for using their weapon.

      Individual rights are worth diddly when the mega-wealthy oligarchs that will inevitably take over in the power vacuum created by a lack of strong government. I would rather be a slave to an inept federal government in far away Washington than to the very real and very vicious local warlord who knows where I live, when my wife is at home alone and is immune from prosecution for just accidentally having me killed because I annoy him.

      Stop deluding yourself. If the libertarian ideal world ever come to pass you will cry yourself to sleep wishing you had it as good as you do now. What you are aspiring for already has a name by the way. That name is in the news a lot: Afghanistan.

    6. Re:Navel gazing by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In Liberal World, you'll have the individual right to do whatever the Central Planners tell you. Because they know what's best for you.

    7. Re:Navel gazing by Dutchmaan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ..and in a conservative world, you do what the resource "owners" tell you.. and they're telling you to work a 70 hour work week for them just to survive.

  3. Good luck with that. by T-Bucket · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yep, good luck convincing everyone that they should live on only what they "need" to survive, because the mud-hut dwellers in third world countries "deserve" to live like 2010-era Americans.

    1. Re:Good luck with that. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A typical american could use 1/3rd or down to 1/4th of the energy he uses and the whole country could cut down to 1/10th and no one would realize any difference.
      You only have to invest in devices that use less power.

      Why exactly do you think germans or frensh or british or italian or spanish or norwegian or finnish or swedish or ... insert random country ... have a lower standard of living than you americans have? Why do you believe a guy from Bangladesh will need as much power than you do, instead of going the european way and use our technology?

      My power usage in a 100 square yards flat (yeah, you use square feet ... I hope it is easier to calculate from square yard to square feet than it is for me to calculate from square meter to square feet) is about 1700kW/h electric.

      Not impressed? Was not meant to impress you. That is per year not per month.

      Anyway, at some point in time your energy will be green, and your energy demand will drop and then you have to fight the power companies about: why can it be that my electricity is so expensive when YOU get it for 'free'?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  4. Re:Haves and Have-Nots by itzly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Another thing to keep in mind is that living on 2010 American standard doesn't necessarily require 2010 American levels of energy consumption.

  5. Communism Inspired Tyranny by xdor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First, though, they need to understand the difference between needs and wants.

    i.e.

    We the central planners will determine what you need, because anything you think you need, is just a want -- at least that's what we think -- and since we're in charge, we decide. This is just not something you little citizens think about enough!

    1. Re:Communism Inspired Tyranny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the end result is always the same: Extreme scarcity except for those who happen to be in charge.

  6. Re:Not my problem by NotDrWho · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Shit, I *WISH* I could live like Al Gore. The guy has a fleet of SUV's, a mansion with a power bill that makes mine look like a joke, and closets full of nice clothes, rooms full of expensive shit, etc. Were that we could *ALL* live as "sustainably" as environmentalists like Al Gore or Leonardo Dicaprio.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  7. Nuclear power--the no carbon solution by NotDrWho · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's highly unlikely that the world can safely produce almost five times as much electricity by 2035 as it does now

    We could if environmentalists and NIMBY's would stop blocking new nuclear power plant construction.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  8. Re:Conservation and smart practices by hawguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Guess what? Your consumption and all the other houses in your area are just a rounding error.

    And where will these LEDs and insulation come from when the fossil fuel fiesta stops?

    You better get used to insulating with animal hair and mud, if you can afford to raise animals by candlelight, that is.

    Ahh, but fossil fuels won't just suddenly 'stop', they'll just get more and more expensive as it becomes harder and harder to extract from the ground. As fossil fuels rise in price, making changes to use less fuel becomes more attractive. Of course, it's much cheaper and easier to make the switch now while fossil fuels are plentiful, but there's no reason to believe that fossil fuel production will suddenly stop and we'll all be raising animals by candlelight.

  9. s/Recreation/Procreation/g by iamacat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most forms of recreation don't consume much natural resources compared to production of food and other basic necessities. On the other hand, unchecked population growth is the most fundamental cause of today's social and environmental problems. We need to get serious in combatting religious and cultural superstitions that prevent billions of people from using effective birth control. Then wealthy nations need to make access to condoms and birth controls pills free and ubiquitous worldwide. Then we just have to desperately hope this will work, else the future is tens of billions of people living and dying in misery.

  10. Climate change, not climate destruction. by Vellmont · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We need to stop thinking of this like a disaster that's suddenly going to happen. There's no magic date where the climate is going to be "destroyed". What's going to happen is the climate is going to change, and much of our way of life and infra-structure is going to suffer because of that. We can't "destroy" the climate, we can only make it harder on ourselves and have to do a lot of work to adapt. But there's not exactly an armageddon that's going to unfold. Food production is going to be harder, and the places to grow crops are going to shift.

    The article itself is a little silly. Climate scientists don't debate whether global warming is real, and human caused. But they DO debate like hell about what's going to happen, how much carbon is "too much", etc. So to make any decisions about "30 more years" or making some silly prediction about everyone living like Americans in just 20 years is incredibly stupid, and counter-productive. Those issues are FAR from settled, unlike the clarity that the article presents.

    As far as wants and needs, that'll be settled like it always has, through cost. It's already happening. The SUV craze of the 90s through the 2000s is already on the wane. Gas is more expensive and is going to remain so for a while, and that gas-guzzling Suburban is not only expensive to fuel, it makes you look like a bit of a pig now. People in European countries aren't somehow more altruistic, and care about others more than the US (and therefore drive smaller cars), it's just that gasoline is quite expensive, and the streets are smaller. So the giant car thing is totally impractical. Eventually Americans are going to start driving smaller cars just like they do in much of Europe.

    --
    AccountKiller
  11. Allocation of Scarce Resources, Oh My! by Bob9113 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Living On a Carbon Budget: The End of Recreation As We Know It?

    Oh my god! Whatever will we do?!? We'll have to come up with some way to allocate scarce resouces based on competing wants! If only there were a science that studies economic activity to gain an understanding of the processes that govern the production, distribution and consumption of goods and services in an economy. If we had that, then it would imply we already have an enormous, global system for handling this exact problem.

    Not that it doesn't need tweeking, and we need to internalize the cost of carbon emissions, but this isn't just a solved problem; it is one of the most intensely studied and tested fields of sociopolitical theory that there is. And it doesn't mean we banned recreation. As it turns out, some recreation is actually good for the system, because it increases productivity.

    And can we produce five times as much energy? Ummm, yeah. Real easy. There is a shitload of energy falling out of the clear blue sky at all times. If we have the resources, we can grab more of it. So that completes the whole "productivity" loop back to increasing production of energy.

  12. Re:Conservation and smart practices by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The number one investment you can make is in insulation. Most homes throw away over half of all the heat they generate or have to cool FAR too much because of heat let in during the summer. You should not even think of doing PV work until you have done the insulation work. Insulation pays back faster and does not have the same kinds of damage issues as PV does.

    The second investment would be in more efficient devices. Most furnaces are fairly bad and most electric devices in the house are pretty bad. Why run your AC more in the summer because your refrigerator is doing more to create heat than it should?

    PV is the last step I would take not the first. First insulate the hell out of the house, then make devices more efficient. Depending on climate an attic fan is a great investment to clear out the extremely hot air in the summer. PV mostly just looks flashy but that is about all it is.

    --
    Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
  13. Re:Haves and Have-Nots by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Am I correct in assuming here that YOU have absolutely no intentions of lowering your own standard of living?

    As to striving for American 2010 standard of living, what the world should be doing is aiming higher than that, rather than lower than that....

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  14. Bullshit and other animal feces by mi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's highly unlikely that the world can safely produce almost five times as much electricity by 2035 as it does now—which is what it would take to provide everyone with a circa-2010 American standard of living

    In 1890 a similar egg-head "predicted", Manhattan will be feet-deep in horse manure by 1930. A similar prediction was made for London of 1950 — the number of horses required to bring in supplies necessary for the growing population and its growing demands was calculated, along with the amount of excrement the beasts produced. The volume was then divided by the area of the city's streets to produce the depth of "coverage". An easy mathematical problem, a high-schooler solve it, so it had to be correct — and any attempts to argue against the conclusions were, of course, "anti-science".

    Of course, as we know now, the automobile arrived to save the environment. But the fear-mongering did not cease...

    Why exactly is humanity "highly unlikely" to be producing as much electricity as it wants to by 2035? Even today's technologies allow for that, and in 20 years we are bound to see improvements in both electricity production (higher) and consumption (lower).

    I for one refuse to feel guilty about my recreation.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.