Slashdot Mirror


Liking Analog Meters Doesn't Make You a Luddite (Video)

Chris Gordon works for a high-technology company, but he likes analog meters better than digital readouts. In this video, he shows off a bank of old-fashioned meters that display data acquired from digital sources. He says he's no Luddite; that he just prefers getting his data in analog form -- which gets a little harder every year because hardly any new analog meters are being manufactured. (Alternate Video Link)

32 of 155 comments (clear)

  1. Analog displays are better in some situations. by RingDev · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Especially when you don't need to know the exact number and you need a visual indicator that can be recognized at a glance.

    Speedometers, tachometers, load balance reporting, etc...

    I don't need to know the exact mbps that is currently getting pulled off my server, I need to know at a glance if my load is going into the red. I don't have the time to take my eyes off the road to read that I am traveling at 55.4 MPH @ 2571 RPMs, I just need to know that my needle is pointing up and left, and that my tach isn't pointing straight up.

    That said, I want digital values for all of those things, streaming in real time through the appropriate systems, feeding logs, and populating data warehouses for later analysis.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    1. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by Joviex · · Score: 5, Informative

      But your point is just about the GUI.

      Digital meters can be made to look Analog and provide that exact same feedback.

      For a super stupid example, the windows task manager in the sys tray shows CPU load via a veritcal bar, exactly like an Analog vertical meter would.

      So it seems to be less about the medium and more about the designed controls.

    2. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by jenningsthecat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Digital meters don't have the slow response that d'Arsonval meter movements have, unless extra circuitry is added. The inertia and magnetic delay of old-fashioned electro-mechanical meters naturally filter fast variations in the signal, and can result in a useful reading in cicumstances where the average digital meter produces a garbage reading. Of course, it's also good to know when a signal is noisy or jumpy...

      I use digital meters exclusively these days - they're convenient, rugged, light, and have a higher input impedance and better resistance reading capabilities than all but the very best of the old analog FET-VOM's. But every once in a while I wish I had a well-damped analog meter to save me from dragging out the scope.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    3. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by BitterOak · · Score: 2

      You can make low pass filters in the digital domain, just as in the analog domain. It's fairly easy, in fact. Instead of having the digital meter display the direct digitized signal, have it display an average over the last n samples. You could even make the value of n user-selectable, so you can control the amount of "slowness".

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    4. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The other place analog (or analog-style) gauges shine is when the rate of change is more important than the value. Speedometers and tachometers are good examples: You usually care more if you are speeding up, slowing down, or keeping the same speed than whether you are going 65 or 66mph.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    5. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      as a guy over 50 who has analog meters (triplett, simpson, stuff like that) that are nearly as old as I am, I can say with confidence that you have no idea what you are talking about.

      digital meters tend to fail more! they are more complex, and unless you buy very good ones, they will suffer 'cap problems' (esp. if made in china, which nearly all things are, these days).

      otoh, buy a used meter of the type I described and as long as it was not hit by a truck, it will likely work and out live YOU.

      springs fail? never saw that happen. bushings fail? again, never saw that happen.

      I would guess, based on your very high UID that you are a youngster and never really used or lived with such gear before.

      probably better to just remain silent than to speak up and tell everyone how much you don't know.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    6. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by mirix · · Score: 2

      Hey, don't make assumptions like that. I've got tube voltmeters that are older than you!

      One of which the meter failed on. Something in the movement let a sliver go, which stuck to the movement's magnet, which the coil was then jamming on / binding with. Ended up sorting it out, but it was like brain surgery. This was on a Hickok 209A, circa 1940, with a gigantic 9" meter on it.

      I'll stick with my 80's vintage fluke bench meters for most things. They don't look quite as cool as the Hickok, though.

      I do use the $5 china special DMMs, but only for abuse in the garage, car, etc.

      I can luddite with the best of them, but I know my limits!

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    7. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by wagnerrp · · Score: 2

      If you need rate of change, why not actually display rate of change?

    8. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the average human being can actually read it better off of a changing analog-style dial than they can understand a bare number. It has to do with us being well developed at judging distances for throwing and jumping. (And an analog dial allows you to read both off of one instrument.)

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    9. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by itzly · · Score: 2

      A low pass filter can be made in one line of code. Not in any sense more complicated than making a good analog meter.

    10. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, in your long life with analog meters, I take it there was not a single occasion where you had tap a meter with your finger to correct it ?

    11. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by vtcodger · · Score: 2

      Almost everything electronic has been replaced with higher complexity, yet still higher reliability,

      Half right. Stuff does tend to become more complex over time. But not necessarily more reliable or more usable. For example, some of our kitchen appliances are indeed more usable than those I grew up with in the 1950s. Some are cluttered with unnecessary, weird, or incomprehensible "features". There are a couple of companies whose products I won't even consider any more when making purchasing decisions because of the loathsome controls they have inflicted on the world in the past.

      Reliability? Thanks largely to the Japanese -- who actually care about such things -- Automobiles actually have become more reliable over time. Kitchen appliances. Not so much. Electronics? Look no further than the shambles that the internet has become.

      Complexity is not necessarily good. I suspect that if the newer is better school had their way, hammers would weight 20 kilos, have an incomprehensible control panel, 17 moving parts, three circuit boards and would require both power and internet connections. And you'd need to log into them

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    12. Re:Analog displays are better in some situations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He is also looking at survivor bias.

      Most electronic equipment has about 3 forms of life.

      1) Burns fast. Usually within warranty. This is usually some sort of manufacture defect. Lifetime of 1-2 months.
      2) Med burn. Just stops working something in it busted out of warranty (usually by 1 day ;)) Lifetime of 4-10 years
      3) old timers. These things do not stop working. They last decades.

      When you look at old equipment you usually only come across old timers. As the first two categories were junked decades ago. Med burn is where most things are designed for. So you end up with 'they dont make them like they used to'. It is like that light bulb in that firestation it is well over 100 years old. That is an anomaly most bulbs of that timeframe burned out long ago.

      Also some people have this unholy ability to break things. I seem to have the opposite effect I can't. Back when everyone had CDs I would see people with CDs that have zillions of scratches all over them. I would have well used CDs that did not have 1.

  2. "He says he's no Luddite" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah, and although I weigh over 300lbs that doesn't mean I'm obese... because I say so...

  3. Claim is BS. by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's plenty of analog meters being made every year. Just look at any automobile dashboard. They experimented with digital dashes back in the 80s and quickly abandoned them. Even Teslas, which have an LCD screen in the dashboard, have analog meters; they're just done in software, no different that a phone or PC that has an icon of an analog clock face.

    Interestingly, though, modern cars with analog meters actually have them driven digitally; the indicator is really a servomotor, driven by digital information over a vehicle bus.

    The reason analog instruments still prevail is because they can be interpreted easily at a glance (by looking at the position of the needle, rather than reading numerals and having to decide if those numbers are within a good range), and also because they show trends and rates of change which digital gauges do not.

    1. Re:Claim is BS. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      nopee. an analog dash is nice and classy and it always will be.

      Analog gauges' fate is sealed by two things. The first thing is that they are larger, heavier, and more prone to failure than an LCD display, and more difficult to replace as well. They also take up more space in the warehouse. The second thing is that they are now "old" because they are too slow for the fastest-revving cars. Even aircores can't keep up with the RPMs. This doesn't matter in the average car, but the absolutely highest-performance cars have to have a digital tacho. The highest-luxury cars (and some of the highest-performance once) are now merging entertainment and navigation functions into the gauges as well.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Claim is BS. by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A dash doesn't need to be analogue. It just needs to appear analogue.

      Case in point have a look at the well designed cockpit of an A380. Gauges everywhere... err no, 4 big LCD monitors displaying gauges everywhere.

    3. Re:Claim is BS. by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      No one, outside of some small specialty manufacturers (including some old-time avionics makers), makes analog meters implemented mechanically any more, if you mean something where a cable turns some gears which turn a needle. They're all electrical and digitally-controlled now, and have been for some time, and for good reason: mechanical meters simply aren't as reliable or accurate.

    4. Re:Claim is BS. by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      No, it's an analog meter. It's receiving digital information, and using that to control a servomotor to position a needle, and looks a lot like old-time all-mechanical meters, but it's still analog in the sense that it's displaying information in an analog fashion, rather than as a numerical readout.

    5. Re:Claim is BS. by SpankiMonki · · Score: 2

      You are absolutely correct. And I should have read your original post more closely.

      Cheers!

  4. Value of Analog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I like analog meters because most digital meters suck. Digital meters sample, and most of them sample poorly. Good ones sample much faster than they update the display, and average per display update.

    Analog meters, on the other hand, mechanically integrate and give some information about the frequency and range of a rapidly varying input. Additionally, they noticeably twitch better than many digital displays and give a much better awareness of rate of change than do digital gauges.

    All of these problems are taken care of in good digital gauges. Not at all ironically, the good ones aggressively emulate analog gauges. The newer 747s I fly have tapes and gauges on glass that work very, very well. I have no complaints about them. Outside of aviation, though, the only digital gauges that don't suck are digital speedometers, and that's with a ton and a half of dampening.

    1. Re:Value of Analog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      These are all good reasons to prefer analog gauges over crappy digital readouts. Somewhat hysterically, this guy misses all that with his "analog meter" - which is a clapping monkey toy.

      "Now today our monkey here is tied to the Intel stock price, so that every time the stock has gone up since the previous refresh cycle, he will clap for you, but if the stock price has gone down since the previous refresh, then his eyes bug out, he bares his teeth and starts screeching. So you know things are headed in the wrong direction."

      The "meter" isn't analog at all - it only represents three states, with no continuum in between. It's simply a periodic binary readout that uses an electric monkey instead of pixels on your screen.

  5. Improvement versus fads by Livius · · Score: 2

    Liking the command-line doesn't make someone a Luddite either.

  6. Human Machine Interaction Science by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is very interested to watch trends in HMI design over many years, especially in the process industry.

    In the 60s it was all about chart recorders. The exact pressure / temperature didn't matter, what was critical was a short term trend and operating roughly in the right place. They were easy to interprate and somehow entire refineries were run without fancy control systems.
    Jump to the 80s and it was all about dotting numbers all over a screen in the name of progress.
    At the turn of the century the numbers started getting longer. The worst case I saw was a differential pressure transmitter which displayed flow through a pipe in kg/h to 6 significant digits (yeah right).

    In the last 5 years there's been a rise of what the industry is calling "High Performance HMI". And it's taking everything back to basics, back to what it was before some vendor gave people the option of plastering pretty graphics and numbers on a display. The move is now about removing all distractions, removing the colours, displaying short term graphing trends, limiting the numbers to only essentials and never more than 2 decimal places unless it's critical.

    The inspiration of HpHMI is .... the airline industry. The A380 cockpit has 8 large LCD displays, yet what they display on them are analogue gauges.
    Analogue gauges ignore the exact number in favour of quick and easy glances at current operating states. More importantly analogue gauges provide one thing that digital gauges never will, quick and easy rate of change information. Rather than calculating in your head you can simply see the needle move. It's an important bit of info that can't be shown any other way.

    Take a look at any cockpit.
    The autopilot heading: digital. The exact number is important. It doesn't change quickly. If it does change quickly then it's not important to know about it because likely something else is currently going wrong.
    The altitude: analogue. The exact number is not important. Its rate of change is important.

    We need to go thaw some designers from the 50s and 60s and put them back in charge to kill this obsession with numbers that seems to have crept in in the past 30 years.

  7. Analog advantages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are two things that analog meters do very well that (most*) digital meters do either not at all or very badly.

    One is rate of change. An analog meter in a wild overload condition will begin traveling very very fast, potentially giving you the opportunity to shut down before catastrophe occurs A digital meter will simply update its display a few times without any of the sense of urgency, and it's kaboom.

    Another is getting a reasonable estimate from a dithering signal. A digital meter dithering between 100.2 Vdc and 99.8 Vdc will be almost unreadable if it updates too fast, and useless if it updates too slowly, but an analog needle hovering is an easy read. One can also mentally average "where the needle spends most of its time" much easier as well as seeing very short sharp drops.

    And yes, I have an analog oscilloscope and a digital oscilloscope, and each have their advantages (I have lots of meters. I do electronics for a living).

    AC

    * - Fluke, and I suspect some more high-end brands, have a 'pseudo-analog' part of their display that does exactly what an analog meter does - Changes very fast, but not particularly precise. And it does work. AC
    .

  8. Huh? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

    he likes analog meters

    I thought they were called "yards."

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  9. Digital imitaing analog != Analog by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Even Teslas, which have an LCD screen in the dashboard, have analog meters; they're just done in software, no different that a phone or PC that has an icon of an analog clock face.

    That's not analog strictly speaking. That is a digital device imitating an analog display. Nothing wrong with that but it isn't the same thing. To be an analog device it has to operate on analog (continuous) signals. Digital devices by definition cannot do more than an approximation of a continuous signal. Possibly a very good approximation but an approximation nonetheless.

    Interestingly, though, modern cars with analog meters actually have them driven digitally; the indicator is really a servomotor, driven by digital information over a vehicle bus.

    If they are doing that then the meter isn't actually analog. Analog means something rather specific. If you run an analog signal through a A->D converter and then through a D->A converter you do not end up with the exact same signal you started with. It might be very useful to do that but you could accomplish the same end by simply using an analog device in the first place and not bothering with the conversions at all.

    The reason analog instruments still prevail is because they can be interpreted easily at a glance

    We use analog instruments to interpret analog signals because it is economical and sensible to do it that way. We can display the same information digitally in basically the same format if we desire to but in many cases this adds a lot of cost for little/no added benefit. It is simply often more cost effective to use analog devices to measure analog signals when practical. It's a keep-it-simple sort of philosophy. There is a time and a place for both digital and analog and that line can get pretty blurry sometimes.

    1. Re:Digital imitaing analog != Analog by smpoole7 · · Score: 2

      > That's not analog strictly speaking. That is a digital device imitating an analog display.

      Technically true, but I think you're missing the point. In fact, the arguments here about whether this meter is "true analog" or that one is "digital" miss what the original poster was trying to say.

      Whether I play my guitar and record it directly, or use a digitized sample or even a modeled guitar sound, the end result sounds like a guitar. Likewise, it's entirely possible to emulate an analog meter with digital techniques. While I might prefer the real thing when recording (and I do), my eyes truly couldn't care less whether the meter that I'm looking at uses a magnetic moving vane, or is just a clever simulation done digitally. (The operative term is "clever;" if it's a bad simulation, that's different.)

      On most of my transmitters, even the all-solid-state ones, the power meters are moving vane analog types. I actually prefer them. Nautel (the manufacturer) now does all-digital displays on its latest boxen, but you can also have analog-style bargraphs.

      When we rebuilt a 50KW AM directional back in 1999, I installed a then-cutting-edge all-digital antenna monitor to measure current ratios and phases. At first, I was excited ... but when I saw how the displays jumped and toggled around, I found myself longing for an older analog-style meter. (Call me a dinosaur.) :)

      Again: I wouldn't care if it was an excellent simulation done digitally. Something that gives me a smooth, "averaged*" response, is all I care about.

      One popular audio meter nowadays is the Dorrough Loudness Monitor (www.dorrough.com). It has the best of both worlds: a little peak LED that flies off to the right, showing the instantaneous peak levels, and an "averaged" LED indication of the perceived loudness. Is that "digital" or "analog?" I don't care. It's blamed useful. :)

      (* technically, I guess you'd say "RMS," but that's not really accurate for what we're doing, either.)

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
  10. Looks are irrelevant by sjbe · · Score: 2

    It's receiving digital information, and using that to control a servomotor to position a needle, and looks a lot like old-time all-mechanical meters, but it's still analog in the sense that it's displaying information in an analog fashion, rather than as a numerical readout.

    If it is receiving digital information then it is by definition a digital meter. What it physically looks like is irrelevant. That's like saying my iPod is analog because it's playing music in an analog fashion. It's not the same thing. If it isn't working directly with an analog signal it is NOT an analog device regardless of how old-timey it looks.

  11. Re:Analog! by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 5, Funny

    Digital! When arbitrary precision is mistaken for accuracy!

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
  12. Slashdot Video by PPH · · Score: 3, Informative

    Liking Flash instead of supporting HTML5 video doesn't make you a Luddite.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Slashdot Video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Maybe not, but it does make you evil.