Fusion and Fission/LFTR: Let's Do Both, Smartly

TheRealHocusLocus writes: Disaster preppers have a saying, "two is one and one is none," which might also apply to 24x7 base load energy sources that could sustain us beyond the age of fossil fuel. I too was happy to see Skunkworks' Feb 2013 announcement and the recent "we're still making progress" reminder. I was moved by the reaction on Slashdot: a groundswell of "Finally!" and "We're saved!" However, fusion doesn't need to be the only solution, and it's not entirely without drawbacks.

All nuclear reactors will generate waste via activation as the materials of which they are constructed erode and become unstable under high neutron flux. I'm not pointing this out because I think it's a big deal — a few fusion advocates disingenuously tend to sell the process as if it were "100% clean." A low volume of non-recyclable waste from fusion reactors that is walk-away safe in ~100 years is doable. Let's do it. And likewise, the best comparable waste profile for fission is a two-fluid LFTR, a low volume of waste that is walk-away safe in ~300 years. Let's do it.

Why pursue both, with at least the same level of urgency? Because both could carry us indefinitely. LFTR is less complicated in theory and practice. It is closer to market. There is plenty of cross-over: LFTR's materials challenges and heat engine interface — and the necessity for waste management — are the same as they will be for commercial-scale fusion reactors. To get up to speed please see the 2006 fusion lecture by Dr. Robert Bussard on the Wiffle ball 6 plasma containment, likely the precursor to the Skunkworks approach. And see Thorium Remix 2011 which presents the case for LFTR.

Comments

LFTR

[Pollux]

I love the idea of LFTR. Honestly. A thousand years of cheap and plentiful fuel, simplified nuclear design, smaller physical footprint, lower risk of cataclysmic meltdown & resulting fallout, waste having a much lower half-life, no CO2 emissions...

But it's still an idea. After Oak Ridge, there's been no government-led development of LFTR reactors in the states. Our only hopes at present are either with the Chinese or a private company called Flibe Energy that's trying to gather investment funds to build LFTE reactors for army bases.

Re:Fission is Dead

[ShanghaiBill]

What exactly is "the public"?

It means the American voters, because many Americans think that only America matters. Fission reactors are unpopular in America. They are also unpopular in Japan, Germany, Britain, and other countries. But there are also plenty of countries where nukes have public support, including France, China, India, Russia, etc. Fission power is far from dead.

Re:Fission is Dead

[AK Marc]

So far every "inherently impossible" to meltdown design has been proven to be susceptible. The pebble reactors were meltdown-proof, until it was shown that the pebbles will, over time, change in a way that would eventually guarantee a meltdown, shortening the useful life, and greatly increasing the risk.

We've heard it before. So why should we believe it this time?

Of course, the proponents claim the problems are overblown, but nobody wants to find out. The only approved reactor was put on permanent hold. So we may never find out for sure.

I agree with this sentiment.

[Chas]

There's almost zero reason we should put LFTR and Fusion into an adversarial relationship.

LFTR is closer to market right now, and fuel for it is ridiculously plentiful. It can easily power this planet for hundreds of years.

At the same time, Fusion is around the corner (though it's been "around the corner" for several decades).

Still, instead of dealing with:

* Nasty, polluting fossil fuel generation
* Solar/Wind/Hydro installs that fuck up the local ecology
* Dirty, ancient solid-fuel fission tech

Take the first step forward with LFTR and MSR fission.

Yes, we'll have waste still. But it's FAR easier to design storage/depletion facilities that last 100-300 years. Current fission plants are producing stuff that'll be hot for tens or hundreds of thousands of years. And, quite simply, we can't guarantee anything we engineer will last that long. The oldest (mostly intact) megastructures on this planet are the Egyptian pyramids. And they're only about 4500 years old. Mostly because they're just a giant pile of stone.

Still with LFTR/MSR, we can lower emissions and give ourselves time to grow and improve the grid while we get the kinks out of Fusion technology.

With portable, modular solutions like Boeing's fusion skunkworks project, we can put cheap, safe power generation capacity just about ANYWHERE.
When more power's needed? Just drop another unit next to the first and keep adding until your requirements are met.
And when it's time to decommission a unit? Simply truck it away!

And both of these technologies are engineered, from the get-go, to be inherently safe.

With LFTR/MSR fission. If power is cut, you don't get a runaway reaction. By design, the reactor dumps the medium into dump tanks, away from the reagent.

With fusion, you turn off power to a fusion reactor or change the dynamics inside the reactor, and the process shuts down naturally. Snuffed like a blown out candle.

But, will all the "nuclear = bombs" hysterics ever allow this to go through?

Hell no!

Both yes, but as Fusion-Fission hybrid

[DumbSwede]

What is really needed is a fusion/fission hybrid, which has been theorized for decades, but somehow never makes it past initial design phases. Gives a bridge to pure fusion, burns nuclear waste and/or thorium. Far fewer unknowns and engineering problems to overcome than pure fusion. What’s not to love?

Re:Um

[lgw]

There's no reasonable solution today for non-fossil baseload generation. I personally have no problem with natural gas, but lots of people do. And we shouldn't abandon coal/gas/ancient nuclear for just one replacement technology, lest the unexpected bite us.

I also really like orbital solar following PG&E's design strategy, but it's still in shadow many hours each day. I doubt we have the tech yet to make the Asimov Orbit practical ("hovering" over the poles, thanks to solar sails), but that's also an eventual option, and might be practical before fusion, if fusion's history is any guide.

We need Nuclear here! Fission and fusion.

[zildgulf]

Here in Georgia we are having a heck of a time jumping through the political hoops to build two new much needed pressurized water nuclear (fission) plants in east Georgia. We also have a boiling water nuclear (fission) plant in south Georgia that probably needs to be decommissioned due to age and the problems of radioactive leaks in boiling water reactors inside the reactor containment bunker...er...building.

P.S. How can you call an airtight, air-locked, negative-pressured, yards thick of specially hardened reinforced concrete, enough to survive at least 2 9/11 style airplane crashes, "building" anything but an above ground bunker?

I have to say that where we built our nuclear plants geologically, population-wise, and climate-wise, are the best places to put such nuclear plants. Far better than in the crowded Northeast US or on the West Coast.

In Georgia we have no single "go-to" on alternative energy for base electric generation, no desserts for large scale solar projects, like Nevada, nor massive amounts of land for large scale wind farms, like the Plain states, and we lost much of our hydro capacity in the last 30 years or so. Natural Gas and Nuclear are our go-to for large scale base electric generation and our chance to break from coal. We use too way much coal here in Georgia our air quality has suffered immensely for it. At least nuclear plants do not create millions of tons of CO2 and makes our air cleaner.

I sincerely hope that the fusion plants can be built here.