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The Other Side of Diversity In Tech

An anonymous reader writes: We frequently discuss diversity in the tech industry, and all the initiatives getting underway to encourage women and minorities to enter (and stay in) the field. The prevailing theme is that this will be good for companies, good for innovation, and good for the future of technology. While that's true, greater representation will also be good for the individuals themselves. Erica Joy has been in IT for a long time, and she's worked in many of the industry hotspots. She's written an insightful article on how the lack of diversity has affected her throughout her career. An excerpt: "Unfortunately, my workplace is homogenous and so are my surroundings. I feel different everywhere. I go to work and I stick out like a sore thumb. ... I feel like I've lost my entire cultural identity in effort to be part of the culture I've spent the majority of the last decade in."

26 of 441 comments (clear)

  1. Assumptions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The summary says that increasing diversity will be good for innovation and technology, with no stated reason as to why. So I'll ask: why will increasing diversity be good for technology and innovation?

    1. Re:Assumptions? by Karmashock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Diversity of that kind has nothing to do with sex or race however. It has more to do with different ways of thinking about things.

      Five white guys that are all between the ages of 35 and 45 are not necessarily similar.

      They could for one thing be from very different cultures. They could also have completely different work backgrounds. They might have completely different beliefs about everything. They might has distinct psychologies.

      This obessession with sex and race quotas are counter productive if your goal is better work. If you want greater diversity then look for a diversity of talent, mentality, and psychology.

      I am for example a white man. However, I have a very unusual psychological profile. I am literally 1 in 100,000. Am I unique or superior? No. But I am unusual. I experience the world in a different way. I interact with people in a different way. My value systems are different.

      And on any project I am on, my distinctiveness arrives at options and conclusions that no one else considers. Are my ideas always good? No. Sometimes they're terrible. But they're different.

      Now... how does dumping me for someone that is more normal then I am... but checks some bullshit diversity box helping anything?

      It doesn't. Stop wasting society's time with this horseshit.

      Discrimination is bad. Prejudice is bad. Bigotry is bad. And that includes judging people that you don't know by the color of their skin or their gender.

      You don't know me. You don't get to say my work environment lacks diversity because there are too many white guys in it. You don't know what that even means.

      I would literally change my race tomorrow to anything you like... so that everyone only saw that race when they looked at me. It would only help me. That's a fact. I am clever, educated, and have proven job skills. You give me some race or gender check box next to my resume and I'm a golden fucking god.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    2. Re:Assumptions? by splodus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree. I think though there is something of a business case in that, once you've got a good core team (if the team is large enough) there's something to be gained by broadening the experiences of new team members.

      But that's not really my point. It's more about 'why is diversity a good thing?' And it's a good thing becuase you don't want to exclude good people for arbitrary reasons.

      Now if you start from today, there's only so much you can do, because a great many potentially very good people have already been excluded. They were excluded by parents, teachers, the media and every other influence that helps to convince girls (and perhaps ethnic minorities, I'm not sure) that tech is not for them. I don't think it's done deliberately, it's just where we are.

      I think I'm beginning to see that the reason what I wrote was seen as trolling might be because it was assumed I was being politically correct?

      In fact it's a business case issue for me. You want the best people for your industry, you want the largest pool of talent from which to recruit. To get the largest pool of talant you want schools pushing those with an aptitude for engineering towards the topics at which they excel (assuming that's what the individual wants).

      If you're (inadvertantly) steering a future mathematics prodigy into humanities because 'girls don't do that sort of thing' you're harming everyone.

      That's what diversity is about - not excluding people based on race, gender or sex. And that surely is not controversial?

  2. The new progressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We frequently discuss diversity in the tech industry, and all the initiatives getting underway to encourage women and minorities to enter (and stay in) the field. The prevailing theme is that this will be good for companies, good for innovation, and good for the future of technology.

    There was a time when we said that race and sex don't matter. That you should be inclusive, at least in the sense of not being prejudiced, because its right and moral to not judge based on these attributes, which are uncontrolled and doled out at birth. Now we say otherwise, that they do matter? Which is it? Is it irrelevant that you were born with a certain set of physiological characteristics, or are people truly intrinsically different? Because here I thought I was being progressive by thinking the latter notion, in whatever form you wish to give it, was what we were fighting against. I miss the old progressives. The new ones have stared into the abyss so long they're becoming part of the problem.

    1. Re:The new progressive by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't hear many people joking about this shit. They're putting serious pressure on the tech companies to be more "diverse". Or rather, the tech companies are tending to do it themselves rather than let someone preempt the discussion, because they're terrified of being labeled as racist or sexist. The fact remains that there are very few qualified black or female applications for many of core tech jobs, like those that actually program software.

      Instead, as a reaction, these companies will likely favor less represented demographics in non technical roles to get their overall numbers to balance out, so that they can claim to be more "diverse". The result? If you're a white male, good luck getting an HR or designer job at a tech company. Oh, except for the ones at the top of the power structure, because... well, we can't sacrifice all *those* jobs to balance the numbers, of course.

      Look, I'm not trying to complain about the "poor white male". It's not like there won't be opportunities elsewhere. It's just the absurdity of failing to see what's pretty obvious to everyone except those who are trying to stay within politically correct lines. For whatever reason, many more women than men are simply not interested in or pursuing careers such as software development. Newsflash: there are also very fewer female composers, sound engineers, mathematicians, physicists, and imbalance remains in many other highly technical fields.

      Why? I don't know - I happen to be a white male, so I have no perspective on what a black woman goes through in life. I became a programmer because I was fascinated by computers and how they worked at an early age, simple as that. Why not ask women why they didn't become programmers rather than focusing on the end of the process, where the damage has long been already done?

      The uncomfortable answer may be this: maybe they just aren't interested. People don't want to hear that, because it really doesn't leave much room for a solution to the problem, except to try to force feed tech to girls early in life in the hopes they find it interesting and later fix the imbalance.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:The new progressive by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There was a time when we said that race and sex don't matter. That you should be inclusive, at least in the sense of not being prejudiced, because its right and moral to not judge based on these attributes, which are uncontrolled and doled out at birth. Now we say otherwise, that they do matter? Which is it?

      It's neither, your assumptions are wrong. It was never that race and gender didn't matter, it has always been that all races and all genders are equally valuable as human beings and equally worth having in organizations.

      Maybe you were confused by that Michael Jackson song where he said "it don't matter if you're black or white". What he meant was that neither is a disadvantage, not that your heritage and culture are meaningless.Clearly at the time most black people had very difference experiences and opportunities in life to white people, generally speaking. He was talking about outright racism and discrimination.

      Fortunately we are mostly past the racism and sexism now, but there are still cultural problems. The organizations mentioned in TFA are probably not sexist, they don't actively discriminate on gender, it's just that the work environment is disadvantageous for women.

      To be absolutely clear, hiring should still be done on merit. It's just that companies should try to advertise jobs in ways that attract more female applicants, and create a work environment that facilitates them. Think of it like not putting in a ramp for wheelchair access. It's not actively discriminating like putting up a sign saying "no cripples" would be, but it puts disabled people off working there because they either have to struggle or keep asking for special equipment to be installed just for them.

      Understand now?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  3. No, you're not crazy by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The author of this blog article (and that's what Medium is, it's livejournal 2.0) is flat out complaining that it's wrong for people to like things she doesn't like. It's not good enough that people accept her doing her own thing, they have to NOT do theirs. It's unacceptable that everyone else enjoyed playing rock band and a sign of horrible discrimination and exclusion that she should ever become part of another culture or group instead of everyone else changing to suit her exact tastes and preferences.

    And she wonders why she feels like people walk on eggshells around her and why she feels like she makes people uncomfortable. As usual these days Susan Sons' article on girls and software should be mandatory reading.

    --
    A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
  4. Tech Up Bringing? by Dragon+Bait · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I feel like I've lost my entire cultural identity in effort to be part of the culture I've spent the majority of the last decade in.

    Translation: I want to impose my culture on my team mates.

    Frankly, I'm tired of hearing people bitch about diversity in the tech field and then blaming employers. Out of the 200 people in my freshman CS class, two were black. By my senior year, one of them was left in the program -- and his major semester project failed all tests (the test being automated were completely color blind).

    Let's ignore race for a moment. What's the percentage of people in tech who came from a single parent home? Ditto for the population at large? How many people in tech had welfare crack whores for mothers? The population at large? What's the percentage of people in tech where education was a priority for the family? The population at large?

    If you want to bring race into it, turn around and ask the same questions and throw racial demographics into it. Perhaps the problem isn't with the tech companies, nor institutions of higher learning,nor primary or secondary education. Perhaps the problem lies with the family dynamics.

    1. Re:Tech Up Bringing? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I feel like I've lost my entire cultural identity in effort to be part of the culture I've spent the majority of the last decade in.

      Translation: I want to impose my culture on my team mates.

      No, more like I am always acutely aware of my differences and it can be uncomfortable. Until you have been their it is hard to understand but one day you may find yourself there even if your just "the old guy."

      Let's ignore race for a moment. What's the percentage of people in tech who came from a single parent home? Ditto for the population at large? How many people in tech had welfare crack whores for mothers? The population at large? What's the percentage of people in tech where education was a priority for the family? The population at large?

      the real question is "how do we identify and support talent that may not be able to reach their potential without help?" It is easy to dismiss people but the reality is if someone cares and helps people can overcome the odds.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:Tech Up Bringing? by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many people in tech had welfare crack whores for mothers?

      Dude. Your dog whistle is broken. Everyone can hear it.

  5. Commonality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So different teams, different bosses, different roles, different companies, different locations, different time periods and they all sucked, she was always the outsider... the only commonality was the author. Her attitude is the problem, not the rest of the world.

  6. Re:It's all your fault whitey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The continual assumption on the part of the "progressive" crowd that, as a white male, I am obviously a racist hate-filled bastard, is actually starting to turn me into a racist, hate-filled bastard.

  7. The thesis has been debunked already by Karmashock · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The assumption is that there is no diversity because of discrimination. An analysis of the women in college demonstrates that fewer are hired in tech because fewer train for that field.

    Therefore the burden is on the college not the tech company.

    The College will respond that the burden is not on them because the student chooses what they want to study.

    Which either means women have to take responsibility for this or we regress back into their history blaming their high school, their grade school, their parents, or society...

    And I wish you all a hilarious time with that little journey. I'll be over here in the real world just getting on with it.

    *rolls up window and drives on*

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:The thesis has been debunked already by Karmashock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A women feeling uncomfortable because there aren't a lot of women around is not a sign that I am discriminating against her or showing her disrespect.

      That is merely her personal response to a situation.

      You want to say people feel uncomfortable in given situations?

      Okay, lets say I tell you that I am made uncomfortable by a woman that wears sexy clothing and yet doesn't want me to stare at her. She's sexy. I want to stare at her. But I can't because that would be rude and creepy. So she's walking around wearing this stuff and it makes me feel uncomfortable.

      Now if I point this out, I am apparently slut shaming or victim blaming or some other stupid buzz word that means she isn't responsible for my impressions of things she's doing.

      Okay.

      Then I'm not responsible for her feeling uncomfortable by the mostly male work environment.

      Either sort out the hypocrisy in this idiocy or concede that it doesn't make any god damn sense.

      I am too logical and too rational to be distracted by this psychobabble. If you want to push this stuff... Go for it. I eagerly await the attempt.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  8. Irony by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I laughed at their terribly racist and sexist jokes

    I've lived and worked in the South my entire life and worked on teams that were overwhelmingly white. I've never heard coworkers make "terribly racist and sexist jokes" at work. What this leads me to believe is that either her West Coast or New England coworkers were much more inclined toward racism and sexism (a possibility, since New England is actually more racist than much of the South today) or she was indirectly proving why they felt the need to walk on egg shells around her (the habit of certain people to find racism and sexism where it doesn't exist).

    Much of her argument comes down to the fact that she wants to work with people who look and act like her, not like me. That's fine, but let's call it what it is. She prefers her own and in white people that's called "racism" by the left. But as we know from the left's vanguard, minorities cannot be racist since you have to have power to be racist and minorities allegedly have no power.

  9. Re:It's all your fault whitey by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 4, Insightful

    According to current social justice theory being a white male, especially a heterosexual white male, is a privilege you need to be ashamed of.

  10. The last statement sums it up by Tyr07 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know this: I am not my job. I am not my industry or its stereotypes. I am a black woman who happens to work in the tech industry. I don’t need to change to fit within my industry. My industry needs to change to make everyone feel included and accepted.

    Excuse fucking you? No wonder people felt like they had to walk on eggshells around you.

    Let me rephrase that for you to for exactly what was said here, as I don't feel the need to walk on eggshells. "White people do not have the same background as I do as a black person, I feel more comfortable and included by black people. White people have to change what they're doing to be more like black people so I can feel included without changing who I am"

    People do not need to be your friend, they don't need to like you. I did read some disgusting behaviors in there by coworkers and managers, that was exceptionally inappropriate, however, you do not need to be included in social aspects of work.

    That goes with people having similar interests and background. I don't get to come to work as a white guy to talk to other white people and demand I feel included because we're all white with white backgrounds. If I have different interests in my co-workers, which I often do, I'm not part of any secret communications, or making fun of other people. In fact, I don't care to gossip at work at all so I'm likely the target of some of the gossip, and I don't get invited to these 'things'

    I am a white male. My responsibilities in the work place to my co-workers; I must respect them, they are human beings. Their gender does not matter. If I can reconfigure our cisco routers, any women of any race with the same knowledge and expertise can do the same thing. I will provide them equal respect for this as I would a caucasian male. I will treat them professionally without discrimination. I will include them in any work related activities on a business level of productivity and participation within the company.

    I do not have to like you. I do not have to be your friend. I do not have to embrace your values, or way of life, or anything about you in a non professional manner. I am in my full rights to keep a strictly professional relationship with you, regardless of your race and gender.

    As with any co-worker, that is likely the case, I do not engage socially beyond work related social interaction with most people. On occasion, I run into person of who happens to share similar interests and behave the way I do. These people I may end up calling friends.

    You cannot hide behind the mask of racism and gender discrimination to force people to like you and want to be your friend. The opposite will happen.

    My final comment on this - I'm sorry you experienced some assholes who were disrespectful to you. They were assholes, and it's not a reflection of the entire industry, progress is being made on that front, and here is the biggest shocker of all. White men have to deal with these assholes too, sometimes they just don't "us" either, and we get treated with shitty condenscending comments where we're shocked we didn't punch them in the face for it and what they said is HR worthy.

    1. Re:The last statement sums it up by silas_moeckel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Their failure to integrate is a perfectly fine reason to be passed over. I've managed women and people of color in the IT workplace and some fit in just fine it's no different than a white male who is a school snob or otherwise fails to gel with the rest of the team, they have to be outstanding to make up for the failures in their soft skills. In general if you have a prissy attitude or otherwise a chip on your shoulder you wont fit in because you choose not to that is a failure solely on them. People are free to make that choice but do not complain when it adversely affects you.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
  11. Re:Would you look at that by splodus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I found it a very interesting and quite moving post.

    I'm a white male from a relatively privilaged background, yet I have felt like an outsider many times over the last thirty years of my career. Yet if I choose to I can put on a cheap suit and smile and most people's first impression of me will be 'he's one of us'.

    When people start to get to know you they pick up, of course, on the things you do and say that are not quite what they expect, and some will dislike that, and some of those people will turn to harrassment and bullying.

    Now, I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to begin at the point where one or two people have taken to bullying, and the rest are reticent about chatting and socialising. It certainly can't be easy (well it could be, I suppose, if you're a sociopath and simply don't care what others think of you).

    If you spend long enough somewhere, and you are basically a good person, then of course you will end up with friends who like you for who you are. But getting to that point takes time, causes stress for many, even when you feel welcome and people are supportive. Getting to that point when you already feel you don't belong must take tremendous strenght of character, and I know there's no way I could have gotten through what she has.

  12. lack of self-awareness by joe545 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    She doesn't like that she conformed to the group she was in and feels that is a bad thing. But yet recognises that she feels much comfortable amongst people who "share her cultural upbringing" and doesn't think that's a bad thing. There's inconsistency there.

    But then when she talks about joining a group at work who enjoy going out to have a beer or two and then complains that they she doesn't like beer and that they should do something else. Not very appreciative of views diverse from her own there!

    At one point she mentions that she was the only black women in her team of two. As opposed to what, being two black women alone in the same team? That's not very diverse now, is it?

  13. Re:Having read the article; I can relate by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem is really the boundary of the culture. It's got very little to do with the externalities as much as natural human grouping and cliques.

    I work in schools. In my most recent workplaces, I feel incredibly out of place. The reason being that they have been private schools.

    I was educated in a state school, in a very working-class area. I have a "common" accent. I drop my H's and sound very working-class. Even some of the maintenance guys are former "boys" of the school and correct my English. They mean no harm, it's just the way they were brought up and there's a friendliness there anyway. We get on very well.

    As such, there's a divide, however. You can spot other "working-class" people in the school. They become your friends more easily, you have more in common, you have a common "enemy" in your "you'll never guess what happened today" chats, even.

    But you can feel it. The divide is there. It's definitely present. And the same is in all schools anyway (I guarantee you that teaching staff do not mingle with "admin" or "facilities" staff naturally - you can see the divide in office, staffrooms, social events, etc.).

    And, yes, I have been mistaken for everything from a parent to a cleaner to an outside engineer. It happens, purely because of people's assumptions and the mental categorisations they make. And it happens with both children and adults. The polite ones, you might not notice because, well, they're just polite to everyone anyway. That's an issue of basic manners, not to talk down to someone that you might perceive as "lower" than yourself. It's really a function of such manners - it doesn't matter who you are if you're not accepting of others and try to find commonalities.

    And there is no workplace where there's not a divide - none that I've ever seen anyway. The tech guys go over there, the admin people sit over there, the management huddle together and then force themselves to "do the rounds" to the other cliques but never linger, etc. It's how people work. It's a human trait. We do it for good reason - to surround ourselves with people we feel comfortable with, can talk to, can sympathise with, can help out. I can't help out the headmaster of a private boarding school socially - we're in different worlds. So long as we're both accepting, we get on fine, however. I'm never going to come to a wine-tasting, and he's never going to come dig through the dusty network cabinets and hold cables for me. But it doesn't mean that we ignore each other, or talk down to each other, or wouldn't hold the door or give the other a hand with something heavy.

    I absolutely do not condone racism or any other discrimination in any way. I could never do so in my workplace and I constantly feel that my generation are stupid if they continue the mistakes of the previous generations.

    But there will always be groups, cliques and social circles. It's human - and animal - nature. When I go to a social event, unless there are other IT guys there, it's the maintenance guys that I end up leaning towards. They talk on the same level as myself, have the same expectations, have similar experiences and histories, and I identify more with them.

    As such, when someone without those properties is trying to ingratiate themselves into my social circle, it's more difficult for them.to do so, no matter how welcoming we are. It's literally time for them to smile awkwardly and pretend they sympathise or know what we're talking about (especially in IT!).

    Nobody asking those people to change. Nobody should make me change to make them more comfortable. We should be accepting of others but also understand that, you know, sometimes the guy in the same department doesn't want to go for a drink with the rest of you after work. It's not offensive, he just doesn't fit in, or want to fit in, or has his own plans etc.

    The problem only comes when people FORCE acceptance. Then you end up with a secret social group that excludes others anyway, and a faux fron

  14. Re:It's all your fault whitey by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "social justice" is based on the extremely faulty assertion that everybody is the same and that absolutely every trait or preference you may have is culturally constructed. Once you take on board the basic concept that men and women are different and that on average their college major and career preferences reflect this difference, it's not hard to understand why there's less "diversity" in technology businesses.

    Straw Man indeed.

  15. Don't walk on eggshells by MikeRT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm still trying to figure out what my comment about Joan -- white Joan -- had anything to do with Kelly. Yes, I walked on egg shells around Kelly from then on.

    It's called solipsism. You can't really negotiate with a solipsistic person since even abstractions that obviously are intended to show them things about others invariably, in their minds, come back to them.

    Word of advice, though, from experience in dealing with these types of people. The best defense is to make it clear you are a hard target. By hard I mean, you will defend yourself and make it costly even if they nominally win the fight. No one wants to suffer at best a pyrrhic victory.

  16. Re:It's all your fault whitey by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It used to be about equality of opportunity. But now we have equality of opportunity it has morphed into equality of outcome. This is a very different thing indeed.

  17. Discriminated White dude by mrhippo3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was working at a software firm that tried to implement diversity, by hiring the wives of "star" male employees. These women had neither the background, the skillset, nor the ability to learn. Nominally a Marketing Writing Manager, my boss was a HS English teacher. There is some irony in her on-line profile where she has downgraded her job to make it look like she was a worker bee. She could not write commercially, talk with either vendors of customer (the product was engineering analysis software), or even create an outline. Her best efforts were freely plagiarized. She lifted paragraphs -- entirely unedited for context or tense or any trace of grammatical comparability and strung these random bits into an "article." Granted the opportunity to write the press release that defined the company's future (all revenue would shift from "big iron" to workstations and smaller boxen) she, "Was too busy selecting literature for the upcoming trade-show." Yet, she was immune from criticism. Any doubts on her abilities were cast as sexism. A parallel boss (of equal "wife" status) stiffed Sun Microsystems in the 1980's when she refused to pay shipping charges -- part of her attempts cover up her incompetence. Sun (one of the top revenue producers for the firm -- this was millions in revenue) stopped paying attention the software firm, because the boss stiffed them of $1,800 that the spouse had agreed to pay. It is with great joy that neither "boss" has ever had a follow-on job with ANY staff. The writing boss did some work, but only onsey-twosey and little repeat business (too many small jobs in way too many big companies). If you are any good you become "captive" and write a lot for one department.I have recovered and left writing and now am the second in command at a small manufacturing firm. My boss in the family run firm is a competent woman. She does her job well and we get along great.

  18. Re:The answer by NotDrWho · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because people who know different stuff know different stuff.

    "Hello Team! This is our new team member, Ug. Ug is actually an unfrozen stone-age caveman who we brought in to add some diversity and new ideas to the development of our game. Now, keep in mind that Ug doesn't know anything about programming, or games, or how to use a toilet, or anything like that. But we're hoping that his fresh new perspective can really help us rethink some of our cultural assumptions about game development. So we need you to treat him as an equal and really listen to what he has to say. Are there any questions?"

    "Yeah, what does Ug think of the game so far?"

    "Well, when we showed it to him, he screamed, attacked the monitor, and yelled something about a vision from the thunder gods."

    "So we should strive to make the game more sensitive to those who may not understand how electricity works?"

    "EXACTLY! And we should probably also avoid any sudden movements in the game. Sudden movements REALLY seem to make him uncomfortable. Do you have anything to add, Ug?"

    "Ug happy to be part of team tribe, Ug honor team chief, no kill his son or take his woman."

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.