NASA Pondering $1.5 Million Stratospheric Airship Competition

coondoggie writes: NASA this week said it was contemplating a public competition to build airships capable of reaching the stratosphere where they could remain for a period of time gathering astronomical data or watching environmental changes on the ground. Airship Challenge's goals (PDF) include: a minimum altitude of 20km, maintained for 20 hours; successful return of payload data as well as cargo up to 20kg; and a demonstration of the airship's scalability for longer/larger missions.

Comments

Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[Hussman32]

From the article:

A requirement is being considered that competitors must independently gain FAA approval for their airships and provide a location for demonstration.

How would you get these approvals and location for anything close to a million dollars?

Re:Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[Ol Olsoc]

From the article:

A requirement is being considered that competitors must independently gain FAA approval for their airships and provide a location for demonstration.

How would you get these approvals and location for anything close to a million dollars?

It's not actually that hard.

You aren't the only person who thinks this way.

When I was trying to drum up interest for stratospheric balloon launching in my Amateur radio club, I made a presentation on meeting night, with concepts and descriptions and websites plus photos and RF data, the Old farts to a man completely deied that it was possible to be allowed to launch any balloons at all, that it was against the law.

Having done the research, it is in short, submit a plan, of what you are going to do, have a radar reflector as part of the payload, and where you plan to launch.

Assuming you aren't launching in the flight paths of an airport, it's approved. The day of the launch, you call them, then again the moment of launch, then when the balloon leaves airspace at 65 Kfeet. Then again when the balloon returns to airspace. After that, you're done except for retrieval.

No cost.

Re:Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[Dereck1701]

As long as your balloon is unpowered I'm sure you're right, I think I've seen where unpowered lighter than air craft have wide latitude to function (mostly for the purposes of grandfathering in weather & hot air balloons). Put ANY kind of propulsion on it and I think things change very quickly. I know there was an individual a while ago trying to create kind of a personal heavier than air blimp (a kind of flying car) in the US and the FAA wouldn't give him any clearances so he was testing it out at/near ground level in the hopes of persuading them to do so. And with the current restrictions on "drones" I believe it does become virtually impossible (NO commercial use, maybe you could argue that NASA prize money wasn't commercial though).

Re:Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[ihtoit]

getting clearance doesn't cost, but getting your aircraft certified costs a fucking fortune - particularly if it is *capable* of carrying a human-sized payload (I'm not talking life support gear here, I'm talking about it being able to cause a two hundred pound human being to leave the ground, period). For a home built aircraft, you have to show shed time (several hundred hours for a balloon or airship) with full construction logs and blueprints, and part of the certification for a balloon is a tethered flight over sixty minutes to a controlled landing (for which read: turnaround less than 24 hours and relaunch using the same canopy).

source: built my own PHAB (personal hot air balloon, slightly larger than a hopper but still too small to warrant a basket - it got a bucket seat harness instead) between 2000-2003, got it certified and flew it six times, scoring 11.5 hours not including certification flights.

Re:Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[Jane Q. Public]

Amateur rocketeers routinely get approval for their launches.

Re:Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[Gavagai80]

More likely he was testing his flying car at ground level to con investors into thinking it'd work by pretending the FAA was the problem.

Re:Not sure of the cost benefit of this

[UnderCoverPenguin]

This group has flown an "airship" to 95,000 feet (over 28.5 km or over 17.9 miles): http://www.jpaerospace.com/Tan...

yeah right

[Noah Haders]

where they could remain for a period of time gathering astronomical data

eye roll

or watching environmental changes on the ground.

double eye roll

Re:yeah right

[sexconker]

NASA really needs to stop being a fucking global warming shill organization and get back to putting people into space (fucking space, not the upper atmosphere).

Re:yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

You are missing the fact that they are called the National AERONAUTICS and Space Administration. The AERONAUTICS part even comes BEFORE the space part.

Re:yeah right

[sexconker]

And NATIONAL comes first! Why do they care about GLOBAL warming? We have to stop AMERICAN warning FIRST!

Re:yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nice. Regardless, the organization is still called the National AERONAUTICS and Space Administration, no matter how much you would like to disregard the 'aeronautics' portion.

Re:yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

where they could remain for a period of time gathering astronomical data

eye roll

I'm not sure I understand your sarcasm. It sounds like they are basically trying to come up with the next generation of the Kuiper Airborne Observatory. High altitude astronomy produces ground-breaking results. Do you have some sort of objection to investment in basic science research?

or watching environmental changes on the ground.

double eye roll

You're not one of those guys who thinks that global warming is some sort of liberal conspiracy, are you? Again, this is about basic research. Why would you object to that? Perhaps you could explain a bit more about your thinking on this?

Re:yeah right

[Dorianny]

Sending people on glorified joyrides is about the biggest waste of money I can think of.

Re: yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

Global warming has fuck all to do with aeronautics. Planes will still fly.

Re:yeah right

[Noah Haders]

I see I was too oblique. The govt obviously wants a spy platform with more flexibility and resolution than a spy satellite without the hassle of flying planes, but they are too cheap to do it themselves and so instead want to"crowdsource it" because they read that term online once. This way it can spy on us better.

Re:yeah right

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

If that was so, this would be sponsored by DARPA not NASA. DARPA does these contests all the time too...

Re:yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

I see I was too oblique. The govt obviously wants a spy platform with more flexibility and resolution than a spy satellite without the hassle of flying planes, but they are too cheap to do it themselves and so instead want to"crowdsource it" because they read that term online once. This way it can spy on us better.

Ah, so you are a nutter conspiracy theorist then. It must be a sad, scary world you live in where everyone in the government is out to get you and oppress you. When you manage to venture back into reality you will find that sometimes the government also likes to fund basic research too. Granted, the government too often does want to overreach in its "security" mission, but thankfully this is not one of those times.

tl;dr: you can take your tinfoil hat off now.

Or provide wide-area wireless/cell coverage

[xmas2003]

Seems like this would make a pretty darn good wide-area wireless/cell "tower"

Re:Or provide wide-area wireless/cell coverage

[Anonymous Coward]

If the average cellphone could even transmit that far

Re:Or provide wide-area wireless/cell coverage

[ThePackager]

Line of sight - check; Above most clouds for isolation: energy source; Cash flow to sustain upkeep and program expansion; Robot piloted? Deployable anywhere; How can I invest?

Re:Or provide wide-area wireless/cell coverage

[Immerman]

All cellphones transmit to the far edges of the universe - the only question is whether the receiving antenna is sensitive enough to pick up the signal.

Re: Or provide wide-area wireless/cell coverage

[Anonymous Coward]

I talked to Star Command HQ just l last night.

the wheels

[MakersDirector]

And the wheels on the bus go round and round. round and round. round and round....

And remain in one area...

[Anonymous Coward]

The story description left out the most important part of the goals: That the airship has to maintain it's position within a 5km diameter area, or travel between to points for the Tier 2 prize.

Otherwise you could do all of this with existing balloons.

Hot air balloons

[penguinoid]

It's time to reach for the stars like it's 1783.

Cause rocket science is hard.

Re:Hot air balloons

[Selur]

> High Altitude Platform Stations
>
> STRATXX's 'High Altitude Platform Station (HAPS) technology allows payload equipment to be lifted and maintained in the environment prevailing at high altitudes > (low temperature, low air density, high radiation). The concept combines modules that are relatively inexpensive to produce, assemble and operate.
>
> The X-Station is unique due to its innovative design, rapid deployment-redeployment characteristics, upgradeability and modular design. The technology is packaged in a simple, modular and upgradeable product range. By using emission free propulsion systems, there is minimal environmental impact. Furthermore, its perfect line-of-sight minimises electro-smog at ground level.
>
> The X-Station will be made from super-strength and super-light materials. With this novel technology developed by STRATXX our clients can communicate with a fixed "on station" platform 21 kilometres above the Earth.
>
source: http://www.stratxx.com/product...
doesn't sound too bad, but it's not build in the U.S.A. (not sure if this is a plus)

Re:Hot air balloons

[WindBourne]

doesn't sound too bad, but it's not build in the U.S.A. (not sure if this is a plus)

I suspect, or hope, that it is a requirement. NASA is NOT part of the UN.

Re:Hot air balloons

[WindBourne]

Apparently, foreign teams, or teams with foreign members will NOT be eligible for money.

Teams foreign and domestic may compete in the challenge, although teams that include foreign nationals who are not permanent residents of the United States may not receive prize money for these competitions. The sole exception is for U.S based educational institutions, which may have up to 50% foreign national students on their teams. No team members may be from countries listed on the NASA list of designated countries.

I know I said rocket are shit...

[Anonymous Coward]

but I didn't mean NASA should start using blimps.

Re:I know I said rocket are shit...

[Immerman]

Why not? The airship-to-orbit folks have found solutions for 7 of their 10 impossible obstacles, and if they can solve the remaining three (plus any unexpected obstacles) their approach promises to eventually reduce the cost to orbit to pennies a pound, while removing the risks inherent in riding a giant bomb into orbit. Can they do it? No idea, but given the payoff it's certainly an approach worth pursuing. If they have a large enough prototype Dark Sky Station to handle the payload I'm hopeful they will be able to win this competition and enough funding to make a serious attempt at their second stage dark-sky to orbit hypersonic airship.

And attach a usable WiFi,LTE,Internet transceiver

[Anonymous Coward]

So Facebook, Google, and Yahoo can get fire R&D funds from the gov't for their 'Internet to everyone' pet projects.

first problem to overcome

[ihtoit]

at 20km up it's going to be fucking cold. Whatever you build your airship out of it's got to be able to withstand that without cracking (like mylar or PTFE would).

sounds like a pinky and the brain episode

[CaptainStumpy]

.. No Pinky. We enter the contest, and design our pirate airship to control all other contestant's airships. After successfully maneuvering all of them into the path of the sun, thereby blocking out all sunlight, we hold the world hostage until the everyone recognizes me as their unquestioned leader! Yes!

Bingo!

[Anonymous Coward]

We have a winner. This is why.

JP Aerospace

[JoeSilva]

Maybe a good fit for JP Aerospace and their Airship To Orbit project

Re:JP Aerospace

[Immerman]

My thought exactly. I do hope they enter and win, I'm sure $1.5M would help them take a serious stab at their second stage ascender, maybe even get it working well enough to secure a more reliable funding stream. Seems like they've already secured a funding stream for the first stage and Dark Sky Station development - those are the realistic goals with short-term payoff potential.

just below freezing. Latex weather balloons.

[raymorris]

The top of the stratosphere is a little below freezing. Weather balloons often hit the lower range of the stratosphere and burst only because they don't have a pressure release valve.

Mylar is good to about -150C.

Re:just below freezing. Latex weather balloons.

[ihtoit]

not to burst your balloon (snap), but according to the ICAO 1964 specification (international standard atmosphere, dry air), temperature at 20km is a balmy -56.5C.

Mylar is a polyester, which is a thermoplastic. While the monatomic metal layer does a little for its intrinsic hygroscopic properties, it doesn't do enough (water absorbed this way still freezes and expands, causing the material to crack), and because mylar is gas permeable it is little use on its own as a single-layer envelope material for any but short flights. According to the datasheet from DuPont that I have in front of me, mylar becomes brittle at -100F (-73C). This is easily achieved at altitude with high velocity polar wind currents.

Re:just below freezing. Latex weather balloons.

[Immerman]

You are aware I hope that wind chill doesn't actually affect the temperature? It only effects the human-perceived temperature (roughly the rate of heat loss of a non-cooling object). -56C with a 60C wind chill factor will still only cool things to -56C. And actually friction from the wind will cause some heating, so you won't even all the way to the still-air temperature.

Moreover, 20km is the *minimum* altitude for the challenge, and the coldest part of the atmosphere until you climb into the ionosphere at around 70km. Climb to 40km and you're up to -23C. As it happens the airship-to-orbit team have already reached and maneuvered at 28km, and their plan calls for permanent transfer stations to remain at the even balmier 42km.

The primary purpose

[Anonymous Coward]

... where they could remain for a period of time ...

As low-flying spy and communication satellites. Get a better picture and get it 30% faster.

Re:The primary purpose

[Immerman]

Cheaper, I don't know about better though - an orbital camera doesn't have to deal with air turbulence, though a gyroscopic stabilizer can probably compensate for most of that. I have a hard time imagining such things *not* being used for surveillance though - and not just in military regions. What social power conglomerate *wouldn't* want a 24/7 eye-in-the-sky swarm to help keep the peasants in line?

For communications though - talk about your obvious solution! At less than 1/5 the minimum quasi-stable orbital distance transmission powers will be less than 1/25 what is necessary for even the closest satellites - and actually within range of standard cell phone transmissions: At 35 km maximum cell range that gets you roughly 30km radius at the surface distance with a "tower" high above it. Wonderful for providing coverage in mountainous areas. Improve the "tower" for longer range and raise it to 40km or so and you've got line-of-sight over something like a 400km radius. If solar power is sufficient for station keeping cell towers could become a thing of the past.

And none of that detracts from the scientific value, especially considering those altitudes have been almost completely unexplored. If anything it improves it, since commercial applications will tend to drive down the cost of equipment and allow more researchers to afford it.

And hey, eventually they'll probably get cheap enough that private citizens can afford their own spy "satellites" with which to watch the watchers. Quadcopter drones are already starting to get in on the action.

starts to, usable to -250

[raymorris]

If you have the thermal datasheet in front of you, you see it says the physical properties START to change at about -75, and it remains usable to -250, depending on the application. -56 sounds a bit low, but there is a cold layer before it starts to warm up with increasing altitude, so you could hit -56, I suppose.

What it really Translates to is

[Anonymous Coward]

After the current political years round of shenanigans over the budget Nasa is holding a contest to think about thinking about a contest to build airships.

But what about bombing?

[doom]

if you can't use it to drop bombs, what good is it?

Re:But what about bombing?

[Anonymous Coward]

who said bombs? figure out a smart munition (basically a steel dart with guidance fins, and it is like having a sniper always present. quality over quanity.