Slashdot Mirror
Dealer-Installed GPS Tracker Leads To Kidnapper's Arrest in Maryland
New submitter FarnsworthG writes A news story about the capture of a kidnapper mentioned that he was caught because a car dealer had secretly installed a GPS device on his car. Apparently this is becoming common for "buy-here-pay-here" dealers. The devices are sold by Spireon, among many others. Raises interesting privacy questions. FarnsworthG also points to this Jalopnik article condemning the practice, when it's done without disclosure. The kidnapping itself, of Philadelphia nursing assistant Carlesha Freeland-Gaither, was captured by a surveillance camera.
I think this is a pretty shady practice, don't get me wrong, but it's not quite as "secretly" as the summary made it out to be.
In the article is the statement:
"McDougall said the customer is required to sign a form acknowledging there's a GPS unit in their vehicle. If the car buyer tries to remove it, the dealer is alerted."
Thus it seems likely maybe the perp was informed about the tracking device.
Now the task is to find a hole deep and dark enough for this vile predator.
The world will kill you unless you let everyone track everything you do every day! Repent!
And if we allowed the police to search our homes, cars, and persons on a daily basis, a whole lot more criminals would be caught. I'm glad a scumbag was caught before something worse happened, but let's not pretend that one positive outcome justifies personal tracking, stops-and-frisks, and other countless increases in violations of unreasonable search and seizure in our society.
There's always some child molester caught/charged or person saved by some new'' technology the government would like to see on 'everyone; this is pushed/promoted and used to mitigate the privacy issues.
So whaqt's coming/here already? trackers in every pocket(cell phone), remote shutdown/control of all vehicles(coming 2017?).
etc etc etc
...somewhere in the contract paperwork where you agree to allow them to do it until you pay off the car.
the dangers of the police state pale in comparison to what 40 years of declining wages and eroding worker's rights have done. When it comes right down to it money is freedom. The rich don't worry about stop and frisk....
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Just think of all of the crimes we can prevent or solve, if we place the entire American population in prison camps, with 24/7 monitoring, restricted movement, restricted access to information, and public displays of punitive punishment.
Why is this not being done? Won't someone please think of the children?
North Korea has show the world the way to the future, with our increasing plutocratic societies in the west with decreasing human rights.
Informative? Seriously? It's not just "the left" that is concerned with privacy, and desiring privacy has nothing to do with wanting criminals to escape.
The left is not concerned with privacy. Neither are the neocons. I just want my due process rights, privacy, and money back, thanks. Any such devices like this would be removed from any car I buy, law be damned. I don't care. I will not be treated like cattle.
If you want the rights of ownership, buy the freaking car or have a non-"dog-shit" credit score and be able to get a loan from a bank.
This guy DID NOT own the car.
He was making payments on it with a "Buy Here, Pay Here" lender --- these people finance high risk loans no one else will do and have restrictive terms as a result.
There was so offense against anyone's rights here.
He had horrific credit so had to do "Buy Here, Pay Here" --- which is better than "having to hoof it".
If you want full property rights, you need to actually purchase the property.
Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
what cock? I don't see anything
Except how do you know such a device is installed on your car? Do you examine it everywhere, and compare what is there with photographs of a know-safe car? Or against the wiring diagrams from the manufacturer? Don't forget behind or inside of other things, like behind the glovebox?
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
That does not make it a good idea. That this makes the news just shows how exceedingly rare such a "success" is. With sane laws, a practice like this would send the dealer to prison for a few years.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Umm no, you use a bug sweeper device that beeps louder the closer you get to a radio source. Just like in the movies, except for real.
There are only so many places where always-on 12V power could be tapped into, and it wouldn't be that difficult for an electronics nerd to figure out what circuit the draw is on by doing a DC amperage test at the fuse panel(s), or to check the few places that could tap into the wiring harness before the fuse panel.
If I didn't find something starting there, I'd pull the front kick-panels, the glove compartment liner, and the lower dash knee bolster on the driver's side, and look for things that don't seem right. Since there are only so many ways to tap into a wire quickly and cheaply, they'd probably use quickconnects of some kind and those would stand out relative to factory wiring. Behind the A-pillars, I'd check the wiring for the trunk light. Just about everything else is switched.
On a really modern vehicle it's even worse in some ways (for the person hiding an accessory) because just about everything, both switches and devices, runs back to the body control module, so one can't really tap off of any of that stuff and must go back to the fuse panel.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
For those of us who don't know, or those of us who aren't in the states if this is a USA thing, what's a "buy-here-pay-here" dealer?
How is it different from any other dealer?
There are only so many places where always-on 12V power could be tapped into
Why always-on? The GPS devices only to squawk their location info periodically, and it's not likely to change if they vehicle is turned off. Usually though, you'll an obdii port splitter used, which means the unit is tucked under the dash somewhere on the drivers side.
The suspect knew the vehicle was being tracked as he signed a document stating that fact. He just forgot that fact when he kidnapped someone.
I used to work for a company that tracked vehicle fleets. Every driver knew his truck was tracked yet a driver was convicted of murder when his truck was logged near the site where the ex-girlfriend was last seen and near where her body was found. Another vehicle, different client, was noticed stopped far from it's route in a bad neighborhood. The police were sent and the driver was found selling product out of the back of the vehicle.
People are stupid.
PS. I have no problem with installing the tracker with the knowledge of the purchaser.
...Any such devices like this would be removed from any car I buy...
Agreed! But the key work here is 'buy' - the implication being you buy it outright, and are the owner.
On the other hand, if you are financing through the dealer, the RO (registered owner) is the dealer, not you.
If you look at the Spireon tracking company's site, it states the purpose of the tracker:
"Like auto dealers, vehicle finance companies are turning to GPS vehicle tracking in order to offer loans to subprime buyers while minimizing their risk."
There are only so many places where always-on 12V power could be tapped into, and it wouldn't be that difficult for an electronics nerd to figure out what circuit the draw is on by doing a DC amperage test at the fuse panel(s), or to check the few places that could tap into the wiring harness before the fuse panel.
Why would it have to be always on? Only really needs to operate while car is moving, ie 'ignition on', and could always carry a small backup battery...
If I didn't find something starting there, I'd pull the front kick-panels, the glove compartment liner, and the lower dash knee bolster on the driver's side, and look for things that don't seem right. Since there are only so many ways to tap into a wire quickly and cheaply, they'd probably use quickconnects of some kind and those would stand out relative to factory wiring. Behind the A-pillars, I'd check the wiring for the trunk light. Just about everything else is switched.
In a modern car there is usually a bunch of unused plugs for various options/variants, because it's cheaper to manufacture/stock one somewhat more complex harness than multiple slightly different ones. No reason they couldn't use one of these and a reasonably OEM looking connector if they know in advance what car it goes into. Again, I fail to see why it couldn't run off a switched circuit? - even tapping into the break lights I would expect be enough to keep it functional in most cases quote>On a really modern vehicle it's even worse in some ways (for the person hiding an accessory) because just about everything, both switches and devices, runs back to the body control module, so one can't really tap off of any of that stuff and must go back to the fuse panel.
Past the switch, solid state or mechanical, 12V power to a load is just that. Why couldn't a unit run off of say the rear lights, plate lights or even brake lights, if battery backed?
Because every article I have seen mentions nothing about a warrant.
The life of the victim trumps the need for a warrant.
In law enforcement and law, hot pursuit (also known as fresh or immediate pursuit) [is] the urgent and direct pursuit of a criminal suspect by law enforcement officers. Particularly under common law, such a situation grants the officers powers they otherwise would not have.
In 1939, Glanville Williams described hot pursuit as a legal fiction that treated an arrest as made at the moment when the chase began rather than when it ended, since a criminal should not be able to benefit from an attempt to escape.
Hot pursuit
A month before Delvin Barnes grabbed a woman off a street in Philadelphia, he hit a [sixteen year old teenager] with a shovel in Virginia and stuffed her into the trunk of a car, authorities say.
She was taken to the home of the suspect's parents in Charles City County, where she was sexually abused, authorities said.
While there, the suspect showed the teen pictures of other girls he said he had abducted, authorities said.
Two days later, the suspect allegedly brought the then-naked girl into the backyard, poured bleach and gasoline on her, burned her clothes and dug a hole.
When he was briefly distracted, the girl fled into the woods. Two miles away, she stumbled onto a business, and employees brought her inside.
Barnes is charged with abduction, forcible rape and malicious wounding with a chemical, among other charges.
"I just want to kill him -- just want to kill him," the girl's mother told CNN affiliate WWBT.
The mother says Barnes allegedly told her daughter that he was going to kill her.
After all that her daughter suffered, the mother said, she ''didn't look like herself'' She called it ''devastating.''
Police: Philadelphia suspect also seized woman in Virginia
And who will they elect instead? A Republican who will ignore the constitution and violate our fundamental liberties about as much as Obama and his buddies? People who don't recognize that the 'two' parties are alike in so many ways that actually count are part of the problem. Left/right doesn't matter; it's authoritarian scumbags vs people who care about freedom.
It's already offered as an option for those who are willing to sacrifice their privacy for access to preferential pricing.
Rates go down when insurance companies can reduce risk. The ability to monitor things like driving speeds can do that.
Mandatory compliance is probably a decade or so away.
Who would mandate this compliance? The state can not as it would be considered unreasonable search as has been shown in a few recent court cases. Some insurance companies may but there will always be at least one who will not. There will always be a customer base who prioritize privacy over rates and there will always be at least one company to serve that client base.
...Any such devices like this would be removed from any car I buy...
Agreed! But the key work here is 'buy' - the implication being you buy it outright, and are the owner.
On the other hand, if you are financing through the dealer, the RO (registered owner) is the dealer, not you.
Not quite true. The seller has a lean on the vehicle but you are the owner. If the dealer was still the legal one that could open them up for liability in the event of an accident, etc.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
"Except how do you know such a device is installed on your car? Do you examine it everywhere, and compare what is there with photographs of a know-safe car? Or against the wiring diagrams from the manufacturer? Don't forget behind or inside of other things, like behind the glovebox?"
Or your wife/husband/'friend' might have installed one, some of them cost less than 50 bucks with a prepaid card on it they are even able to listen in on what's being said in the car.
http://www.aliexpress.com/whol...
In europe even if you are financing thru the dealer, it is the financing ONLY which is done. The car is still your belonging. Financing does not mean you are not the owner. Financing only means that somebody loan money to you, maybe with the car as collateral. But the ownership of the car is still yours, with all the privcy implication of not being followed by GPS.
Eh, this depends on whether your state subscribes to Title Theory or Lien Theory.
But the point is, I see a whole generation of potential Sith Lords emerging, all getting their crack in hardware by building a scanner to find the tracker installed by the Jabba-the-Car-hut dealerships.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Actually it's deep... inside... Rosie Palmer... while you fantasise about his mum.
If you work on your own cars (and friend's cars), then an out of place device is pretty obvious. I can tell you the function of every part. If there was some mystery part, it would definitely get my attention. Trackers require visibility of the sky, and power.
If you want to know how weak GPS can be, play Ingress for a while. My phone mounted up on the dash always has a good lock. The phone of a passenger holding it in their hand frequently loses it's GPS data, or it's not accurate enough to play. Passengers riding in the middle of the vehicle can have a really hard time playing. We've all learned the tricks, like waving our phone by the window to (hopefully) get a location.
A device behind the glove box may be a valid receiver, and may get data service to upload telemetry data. It will probably never get GPS data.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
The media conveniently leaves certain things out of its reports. The use of these tracking devices are disclosed in the terms and conditions that people sign without reading. Honestly, this a good use of technology to give people who have fallen on hard times, access to a car. Should we pass a law simply because people will sign a document without reading it?
There are only so many places where always-on 12V power could be tapped into, and it wouldn't be that difficult for an electronics nerd to figure out what circuit the draw is on by doing a DC amperage test at the fuse panel(s), or to check the few places that could tap into the wiring harness before the fuse panel. If I didn't find something starting there, I'd pull the front kick-panels, the glove compartment liner, and the lower dash knee bolster on the driver's side, and look for things that don't seem right. Since there are only so many ways to tap into a wire quickly and cheaply, they'd probably use quickconnects of some kind and those would stand out relative to factory wiring. Behind the A-pillars, I'd check the wiring for the trunk light. Just about everything else is switched. On a really modern vehicle it's even worse in some ways (for the person hiding an accessory) because just about everything, both switches and devices, runs back to the body control module, so one can't really tap off of any of that stuff and must go back to the fuse panel.
So, tell me something, after you've disabled the smoke alarm and lit up your cigarette, how do you plan on leaving the smoke-filled bathroom to get back to your plane seat unnoticed?
Point here is just about anyone is smart enough to find a GPS tracking device and disable it. The hard part here is explaining to the company you signed a legal document with why you disabled it.
Of course, that would be after they repo their "malfunctioning unit" back.
Good luck.
Eh, this depends on whether your state subscribes to Title Theory or Lien Theory.
Correct! But either way the financing dealer could:
A. Attach the GPS to protect his/her property (Title)
B. Attach the GPS to secure his/her loan collateral (Lien)
(Here, I admit I haven't read through a car finance contract, but...) I imagine they could stipulate the GPS as part of the loan terms.
I'm sure it makes repo'ing easier.
What? A black woman was abducted and Jesse and Al were silent?
Can someone explain that to me?
The only thing that needs visibility is the antenna. Tap into the car radio antenna and the problem is solved.
The original point of privacy was made and while I agree with that point there is the point that you don't own the car until it is fully paid for. That and the fact that this guy had major credit problems, enough for the loan guarantor to suspect they would have to resort to repossession, they deemed it necessary to track the vehicle. Lastly, my bet is his contract for the loan stipulated that the car was being tracked until the loan was satisfied buried deep in the legalese and removal of the device would constitute breech of contract enacting the repossession clause.
This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
I think that in today's environment you can safely assume that there is something in any car you buy that enables the loan company to find it. I believe it's a no-brainer. The temptation to do this has to be overwhelming for these people as it solves a huge problem for them. If you know it's there then you can find it. All GM vehicles for years have had OnStar which means the capability was built in. I think that it's wrong for them to install it without informing the buyer but absent a law preventing the practice you know it's going to happen.
>Not quite true. The seller has a lean on the vehicle but you are the owner. If the dealer was still the legal one that could open them up for liability in the event of an accident, etc.
The dealer still holds the title until you pay teh car off. That makes them the owner.
Exactly. In most cases you don't need the GPS running when the car is off. This will let you know the last location the car stopped. The obvious exception is if the car is towed you won't know but you will know as soon as the car is started up again.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
It is a common technique among used car dealers who are selling to someone with bad or poor credit. It is intended to aid in recovery and repossession. The purchaser is aware it is installed. And, it is removed when the vehicle is paid off.
The device our company made and sold ( when I worked for them) could be activated with a court order. Activation was not in the hands of the car dealership because of the privacy implications.
If you do not find it under the gps logo-ed dash port, I doubt the car has one. It is probably just stacked like: Radio, GPS; or GSP, radio.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
The implication here is that everything does not belong to the government and these will not be are already not illegal to remove.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
There are only so many places where always-on 12V power could be tapped into .........
On a really modern vehicle it's even worse in some ways (for the person hiding an accessory) because just about everything, both switches and devices, runs back to the body control module, so one can't really tap off of any of that stuff and must go back to the fuse panel.
Depends on the car. Some modern cars have a 12v ring main running round the car, and also a light signal cable, both visiting all devices. The signal cable tells the devices when to turn on and off. It saves running heavy cables alongside each other to the various rear lights, for example, and hence the total cost of wiring. So plenty of places to tap that 12v.
A car's radio antenna doesn't work at GPS frequencies. That's why cars with GPS always have a separate antenna for it.
Here's a typical disclosure that a GPS will be installed in the car. Not exactly fine print or any trickery involved. Police had plenty of reason to suspect the driver of that car had committed a serious crime.
Easy fix there. Just add a cheap motion detector that activates the GPS. Car gets towed, sensor knows it, starts GPS, it transmits like usual until car stops moving for 20 minutes.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
You license them until the vendor decides you don't anymore.
The dealer owns the car. He's entitled to add stuff to it and not required to disclose that when you buy it.
Easy fix there. Just add a cheap motion detector that activates the GPS. Car gets towed, sensor knows it, starts GPS, it transmits like usual until car stops moving for 20 minutes.
That doesn't fix the always on problem. If you're not getting power except when the car is running, a motion sensor set to activate when the car is being towed is useless.
In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
It's probably not a problem worth fixing in most cases.
The lien holder is different from the owner. The owner owns the car and can do what ever he wants with it. The lien holder is just that, a finance company who holds legal rights to take the vehicle back if it's not paid for. While the lien holders hold the Title of the car, the owner is the registered owner at the DMV and for all other purposes.
If you are still making payments on a car, as the owner, you still have the right to modify the car however you wish. If you want to paint the car, fix it up to make it faster, add new stereo equipment, whatever, you can and don't need permission from the Lien holder. If the Lien holder were the actual owner, you would need permission from them to do this.
This is also why a lien holder can't just report the car as stolen if they want it back, they have the right to repo it back, but they can't just file a police report and say the car hasn't been paid for and therefore is stolen. If they could, I'm sure they would do this as it would be easier and cheaper for them to have the police track it down as a stolen car then hire repo men to find it and get it back. But they don't.
Are you describing a situation where the car isn't paid for yet, or are you trying to tell me that if I pay in full for a new car, I still don't actually own it?
Not so. You are the registered owner. The dealer (if they did their own financing - otherwise the loan holder) has a lien.
Are you describing a situation where the car isn't paid for yet, or are you trying to tell me that if I pay in full for a new car, I still don't actually own it?
This topic was within the context of "rent to own" type purchases or contracts where someone would legitimately place a GPS device in your car, in which you were describing all of the ways to find and disable or destroy it.
If you're having to dig through a personally owned vehicle to search for unauthorized or unknown tracking devices, well I'd say you certainly have bigger issues than predatory lenders and fine print.
I think you're just denying the problem exists because you don't agree with the solution!
How they work is the are hidden under the dash, usually with a Y cable running off the OBD2 port just for the power feed. Just plug and play, about a 5 minute install. The devices cost around $100. For a bit more you can get one with a battery back-up, so if the car is left abandoned, it will signal the dealer the vehicle battery is now dead and here is the location. usually once a day (often 23 hours apart) they send their location, so after a few weeks you know the car's typical location day and night.
Many times the customer is not told at all. It's still a grey area if this is legal since the car is property of the dealer. Once the car is paid off the device (and monthly service charge) is disabled. If the customer is told, it's not made clear what the device is used for. There will be a line in the sales contract saying - your vehicle may include an anti-theft device - That's all. What's not said is the anti-theft device only benefits the dealer, and will be used so the repoman can come pick up your car.
In the dealer defense, buy here - pay here customers are the bottom of the credit barrel and no big name dealer would touch them. They will have 1 or more repossessions, maybe 5 or more accounts in collections, a bunch more of charged off accounts they just gave up on and maybe an eviction from their last apartment. So the dealer knows they don't like to pay for things they buy. There is only about a 50% chance they will actually pay off the car they are buying.
That works against a crude audio bug which is transmitting continuously at a fairly consistent level.
It's likely to be much less effective against a location bug that transmits periodically in very short bursts and possibly only when significant movement is detected.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
If you're out to disable the tracker, it's also likely you're out to make off with, or hide, the vehicle. But otherwise, if it's on its own fuse, (or on a non-critical line), you could simply place a burnt fuse in its slot. That would give you time to do what you need to do, as well as plausible deniability.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
Wrong. When I buy it I own it. Now if I lease it that would be entirely different. Having said that I will say that in this day and age if I buy anything from a dealer I'm going to go over it with a fine tooth comb. I always assume dealers are out to fuck you because.....they are.
...Any such devices like this would be removed from any car I buy...
Agreed! But the key work here is 'buy' - the implication being you buy it outright, and are the owner.
On the other hand, if you are financing through the dealer, the RO (registered owner) is the dealer, not you.
If you look at the Spireon tracking company's site, it states the purpose of the tracker:
"Like auto dealers, vehicle finance companies are turning to GPS vehicle tracking in order to offer loans to subprime buyers while minimizing their risk."
No, if you finance a car then the financier is the lien holder, not the registered owner of the vehicle. There is no way in hell that any financial institution would want to be the registered owner for Joe Blow's vehicle. The bank could be held liable if Joe Blow drove drunk and killed a school bus full of children or something insane like that.
TV magic doesn't work the same as the real world.
At one job, I was tasked with coordinating the installation of that kind of unit in our fleet vehicles. It wasn't a secret that we were installing them, but we had to install them so they weren't in the way. We were using the "GE Security NavLogix".
The control box was generally zip tied to or near the steering column. It had a combined GPS receiver and cell antenna. The GPS receiver puck was put on the dash, usually in the front left corner. That let us avoid putting extra holes in the body and/or introducing leaks.
New drivers had no problem identifying and defeating them. "Defeating" was usually "accidentally" putting a foil bag over the GPS puck. That way they couldn't get in trouble for speeding.
If a vehicle wasn't tracking properly, half the time it was the control unit failed. The rest was the driver defeating it. We couldn't really tell if an intermittent failure was intentional or not, except when tech came in with foil still over the puck. I didn't really care. I'd just tell the driver "move the foil before someone sees it." We had enough units that were flaky, we couldn't tell which was which.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
A motion sensor that doesn't need a continuous energy feed could be incorporated, using some sort of pendulum to activate it. The part of the sensor that then activates the GPS could run off a button battery that doesn't feed from the car's system at all. And when the GPS is active, it could disable that circuit to keep the battery from being run down while the car is being used normally.
I'm not saying that is how they would build such a device, but it could be done if your objection is the main problem.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
An obvious truth is flamebait.
I bought a salvaged car (04 grand prix) and whoever the previous owner was, they apparently had an arrangement similar to this guy's. While putting a new stereo in, I found a tracking device inner the dash on the driver's side, kind of behind where the A/C controls where. It was around the size of a pack of cigarettes, had LEDs for GPS and TX/RX if memory serves, it also had a SIM card, which I removed immediately. I looked it up by googling the FCC id number and found the company's web site. I was kind of spooked when I found it until I realized it was probably put there by a dealer catering to high credit risk customers, or perhaps it was a used rental car or something. I eventually just cut the wires and pulled the whole thing out.
The left is not concerned with privacy. Neither are the neocons. I just want my due process rights, privacy, and money back, thanks. Any such devices like this would be removed from any car I buy, law be damned. I don't care. I will not be treated like cattle.
If you have a decent credit rating, you don't have such a device on your car, unless you have OnStar or similar.
The buy here, pay here car sales are quite bluntly, for deadbeats with shitty credit ratings. This is not about privacy, but the reality that a deadbeat is likely to default on their loan. That's why they go to those places to buy a car. High credit rates, and lots of risk. When it is repo'ed, it's a big help knowing where the vehicle is.
All that is needed is the deadbeat knowing there is a tracker on their vehicle, and it is contingent on their getting the loan.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
That works against a crude audio bug which is transmitting continuously at a fairly consistent level.
It's likely to be much less effective against a location bug that transmits periodically in very short bursts and possibly only when significant movement is detected.
A spectrum analyzer should find something, then an oscillator around the frequency should suffice to scramble the device when it phones home.. A real clever person could spoof the GPS signal also if they could get their hands on the device
But we gotta remember, your signal disappearing will be a warning somethig is wrong, plus that could be breaking the law anyhow. Plus the people who have a tracker installed by a dealer are not likely to be rocket scientists. They are likely to be deadbeats who own't otherwise get a loan. So if the signal goes away, that will probably set repossession wheels in motion.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Are you describing a situation where the car isn't paid for yet, or are you trying to tell me that if I pay in full for a new car, I still don't actually own it?
There would be no reason to track a car you own outright. It's so the lender knows where the car is when the person defaults.
I believe the person should know there is a tracker. But if that is a condition of getting the loan, then I have no problem with it.
This is not anything that is done with a normal car loan.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Wrong. When I buy it I own it. Now if I lease it that would be entirely different. Having said that I will say that in this day and age if I buy anything from a dealer I'm going to go over it with a fine tooth comb. I always assume dealers are out to fuck you because.....they are.
They call it rent to own. They own it until you make the last payment.
But otherwise, there are plenty of good reasons to disable OnStar, as they still listen in even if you don't pay for the service: http://www.consumerkarma.com/2...
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/0...
Presumably they backed off......
http://www.cnet.com/news/onsta...
Um, I do not believe it for a second. If it is there, it will be used, and possibly abused.
This mandatory tracking is the main reason I stopped buying GM Vehicles.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Nope. They sold it with a lien (based on TFA). They don't own it any more than the bank or the government owns your house.
Learn to love Alaska
On the other hand, if you are financing through the dealer, the RO (registered owner) is the dealer, not you.
Nope, the owner is the buyer, the dealer has a lien. There is a difference.
Learn to love Alaska
They aren't the owner. As the owner, I can replace the engine, paint it a new color, and the dealer has no say in the matter. They only have say in the matter if I sell it, in which case I must pay them off before I can transfer title to the next owner.
Learn to love Alaska
This is also why a lien holder can't just report the car as stolen if they want it back, they have the right to repo it back, but they can't just file a police report and say the car hasn't been paid for and therefore is stolen. If they could, I'm sure they would do this as it would be easier and cheaper for them to have the police track it down as a stolen car then hire repo men to find it and get it back. But they don't.
That's why the lowest tier of ownership in the US is "rent to own" whether it's furniture or cars.
Learn to love Alaska
I'm presuming they installed the tracking device before they sold the car.
I've found that walking is a great way to maximize privacy. Anyone can do it and there is no regulatory oversight. A hat with a wide brim, or a hoody, reduces the chance of one's face being caught on street surveillance cameras. If everyone wore hats, they wouldn't be necessarily be distinctive, either. Just buy the hat everyone else buys. If you live near where you work, walking is a great option.
Only boring people are ever bored.
That's not how these buy-here-pay-here places work. They usually set things up so that they lease the car to you, with some stipulation that the ownership of the car transfers to the buyer at the end of the lease if the buyer makes all their payments on time. Hence, you literally "rent to own". So in that case, they do own the car for the duration of the "rent" period. This also means that if they repossess the car, the buyer loses everything no matter how much or little they still "owed" on the car. It's not the same as your normal car dealers, where you actually buy the car by taking out a loan and using the car as collateral.
The BH,PH places I found didn't give any terms online, but implied a sale, not a rental agreement. The RTO places make the rent to own agreement explicit.
It's not the same as your normal car dealers, where you actually buy the car by taking out a loan and using the car as collateral.
The Wiki page on it implies that BH,PH is a regular loan, but that it's given by the dealer. There is nothing more to it than that. Dealers can bump up the price and lower the payments with that freedom. High interest, insane long terms, and low payments is something a regular bank wouldn't do, but a dealer-owned finance company can do it. BH,PH is predatory lending. RTO isn't "lending".
Learn to love Alaska
The detailed News Articles on this event pointed out that purchaser of the vehicle was informed of the presence of the GPS tracking device. It was apparently a condition of the loan because of the background of the purchaser. I agree that installing such a device without knowledge is bad, but this person was informed.