HYREL 3-D Printers Were Developed by 3-D Printer Users (Video)

HYREL 3-D had a display Timothy spotted at last month's Maker Faire Atlanta. They're not trying to hustle Kickstarter donors; they exceeded their $50,000 goal by over $100,000. Their main pitch was (and still is) that they are making high-reliability 3-D printers that can run many hours without breaking. Project spokesperson Daniel Hutchison says he and other people he knows who were making prototypes and short-run parts in the Atlanta area were continually disappointed by the poor reliability of available 3-D printers, which is why they decided to make their own. Open Source? Somewhat, partially, kind of... but they have a bunch of proprietary secret sauce in their software, too. Daniel goes into this in more detail in the video, so there's no need for us to repeat his words when you can hear them (or read them in the transcript) for yourself. (Alternate Video Link)

Comments

Re:Slashvertisement

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a Luigi post.

Inception!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, "Yo, dawg, I heard you like printers..."

But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought 3D printers pay for themselves in a year?!?

This sounds like they are still a niche, expensive toy for nerds?

And why do you need a precision ground ball screw? Isn't machining ... a Luddite technology? If we all still used precision machining, we'd all still be living in caves! Techno fanbois told me so!!

Oh who to believe!??

Re:But but but

[ArcadeMan]

A ball screw for a 3D printer really is overkill, considering that the best prints I have seen so far come from a Tantillus that uses fishing line for its drive system.

Re:But but but

[cdrudge]

And when that fishing line eventually wears out and snaps, what happens to whatever axis that fishing line was supporting? It comes crashing down. With a Hyrel 3D printer, it looks like the Z-axis lifts up and is made of metal. That means there's a decent amount of weight that is being supported. I'm not sure a "professional grade" 3D printer should damage itself when a fishing line would break.

Advantages for a ball screw is lower friction losses over an ACME or other lead-screw designs and for a use like this, is essentially maintenance free and will outlast the rest of the printer.

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Velleman-built K8200 (of shoddy initial quality, but I have tuned it thoroughly and well). Ordinary linear bearings. Ordinary timing belts for X and Y. Ordinary threaded rod for Z. It can do 13-hour print runs, no problem. No proprietary stuff needed, thank you very much. The only thing which makes me curse is the filament snapping and breaking under tension, when it stands idle for more than 24 hours. The filament coming from the reel is obviously too curved, but a bigger reel would be less practical (PLA would absorb significant moisture before the reel is used up).

Re:But but but

[crioca]

And when that fishing line eventually wears out and snaps, what happens to whatever axis that fishing line was supporting? It comes crashing down.

Why wouldn't you replace it before that happens?

Re:But but but

[GrpA]

Depending on your perspective and use, 3D printers can pay for themselves in a single day, and if you use Shapeways as your yardstick, they can pay for themselves with as little as a single roll of plastic ( Sub $1000 printer + 1 Kg of plastic vs $1 per gram standard post-print charge )

I use an UP Mini - I've reliably put about 15 to 20 Kg of plastic through it already, and it's still working... It did start to fail once, so I put some silicon grease on the linear bearings and all was good. One day I'll get the next model, but this one has paid for itself 15 times over in about 2 years, and people buy entire arrays of Up Mini's to run as limited production - they are very reliable and rarely fail to print correctly. It's been about 4Kg since I had my last misprint...

GrpA

Re:But but but

[ShieldW0lf]

Stratasys have been making reliable rapid prototyping machines for many years, and that making another one isn't a noteworthy achievement.

The compelling thing about 3D printing is that there are open source, non patent encumbered implementations available.

Making an open source non patent encumbered 3D printer that is significantly more reliable would be newsworthy. This isn't.

Re:But but but

[FatdogHaiku]

...The filament coming from the reel is obviously too curved, but a bigger reel would be less practical (PLA would absorb significant moisture before the reel is used up).

A small incandescent bulb might relax the filament with a touch of radiated heat...
You might need to add a reflector or back reflector depending on the size of the area but I'd start with just a night light blub.

Re: But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been watching, and so far I have noticed three separate commercial applications of 3D printing in the wild. Two were instances where they printed an original of a thing and made moulded plastic copies of it, and one was an accesory to a somewhat obscure piece of sporting equipment I got from Amazon.

Re:But but but

[gl4ss]

well sure the advantages outweight, especially if you're able to sell a 2000$ PLA only printer.

hyrels stuff is cool but dang it's expensive, closed design and did I mention expensive and aimed at more industrial use.. in which case,they better run hundreds of hours not not hours. even typical home reprap prints are hours. I'm tweaking a POS 500 $ pla+abs machine now that runs just fine on the 60-70 bucks electronics it has, for hours.

oh and on tantilus, if the line breaks? nothing will break as the bed crashes down. the head doesn't crash into the bed. besides than that, on tantilus the bed doesn't move in xy.

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as overkill

Re:But but but

[floodo1]

These guys are practically falling over themselves to stress how robust their printer is and you are actually suggesting fishing line? Stop trolling please.

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

I have tried post-print filament treatment with a heat blower, so far without success... but thanks for the tip, will try anything since feeding new filament into the extruder is a pain in the ***. :)

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

> There is no such thing as overkill
Sure there is. That's when you shoot a guy in the head, then a few more times in the chest, take an axe and cut off his head, then drop it in a vat of acid. You know, just to be sure.

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

But that model looks pretty solid, and it also looks like you can add a heat bed later.

The problem I see with the DIY 3D printer market is that there's far more effort put into making them cheaper than there is to make them better in other measures, and people that buy on price alone wonder why they're having a hard time, especially when they bought a $30 controller and a $30 hot end, and using $0.50 bearings on soft rod stock. There's not a whole lot of reputable pre-built machines for under $2000.

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

Because inertia is a wonderful thing !

Re:But but but

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as overkill in machine building. Solid frame, linear guides, ball screws and proper encoder feedback and drives. A xyz robot is not hard to build by any measure, especially if it runs as slow as these ones and doesn't need micrometer accuracy, but if you cut costs on really basic mechanics and control systems you end up with garbage. Open loop control, belt drives, wobbly frame, these things just don't cut it.

How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are indeed reliable and opensource, at least opensource enough so you can repair whatever breaks in day-to-day usage.

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

What else do you own that breaks in day-to-day usage? Sounds like these 3D printers are a weird fad. At least they pay for themselves in a year, right?

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[cdrudge]

What else do you own that breaks in day-to-day usage?

Everything can break in day to day usage. It doesn't break day-to-day, but it's the usage day-to-day that may cause it to break.

Sounds like these 3D printers are a weird fad.

Then don't participate.

At least they pay for themselves in a year, right?

Do you really need to make the same reply over and over?

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would be unable to build the robots that I build today, without the printer that I have. I would be welding and machining aluminum a lot more, a lot more slowly, and sometimes I would be totally unable to produce the shapes that I currently can.

That's my perspective anyway.

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[AndyKron]

Each has it's place, but ya. SolidWorks helps a lot, too.

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

What "robots"? You mean articulated toys with motors? We had Robo Sapiens almost ten years ago in stores, I fail to see robot butlers walking the streets... Face it, you have a hobby, it's not a revolution.

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[50000BTU_barbecue]

"Each has it's place, "

So does an apostrophe. That wasn't it.

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[AndyKron]

Finger memory :-)

Re: How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

So? Let him have his hobby and leave him alone. He stated that this category of product is useful to him. Who are you to tell him he's wrong?

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the person whom he replied to.

Articulated toys are neat. Consider for example this articulated toy. There is practically no way except 3D printing for a poorly equipped workshop to produce the joints of an icosahedron. If you try it with an ordinary drill press, you'll go mad soon after.

http://actu.epfl.ch/news/gimball-a-crash-happy-flying-robot/

However, my company does not supply customers with articulated toys. It supplies them with articulated warehouse machines. It is not a hobby. And sadly, developments like that will cause the next revolution (or the next one after that). Because our society can't figure out how to transition to communism (or does figure it out, but picks the centralized variety).

Yours sincerely, an anarcho-communist entrepreneur.

Re:How about Ultimaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything breaks eventually, everything wears out eventually. Being able to source or replace parts can be a factor. I thought this was one reason why geeks wanted open hardware.

Pay for themselves depends on their usage. If it's a hobby, nothing really pays for itself except as an amusement and passing time.

Ultimaker is a reputable machine from a reputable company.

Business skills missing

[PoiBoy]

What's missing with all these low-cost printers is a management team that can actually plan ahead, maintain inventory, and ship when you order. I hate the idea of having to pay a deposit, get on the waiting list, then (hopefully) get it a month or two later. Why don't they build inventory before flaunting their wares?

I ordered an Ez3D Phoenix back in May, got asked to pay the remaining half of the invoice in September, and still haven't gotten it. Fortunately it wasn't expensive. Otherwise I'd be tempted to sue for fraud just to make their lives miserable.

Seriously, these outfits need to learn how to run a business.

Re:Business skills missing

[Anonymous Coward]

" these outfits need to learn how to run a business."

They did. They suckered in uncritical gee-whizz 3D propeller-heads.

It works.

Re:Business skills missing

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you get asked to leave restaurants? No, not McDonalds, I mean a place that is so good that you have to wait a month for a reservation? I bet if you did call them up and start giving them your whiny blast of ignorant, they would politely send your money back and tell you not to come back.
Sure, cheap people like you who get their customer service from India and your sneakers from Wallmart can get away with being jerks because the operators need your money. These guys probably don't care what you think. Maybe somebody will pass your info to the shipping guy who will cancel your order, just to prove the point. The reason people like me charge $65/hr is so we can tell people like you to shop somewhere else.

Re:Business skills missing

[Anonymous Coward]

When donating to a kickstarter or purchasing an item from a startup that is trying to offer a new product, some delays should be expected. If your not willing to accept it then you should either wait until the company is around a few years and has inventory or purchase it from the big boys. I suspect that you won't because you either don't want to pay the larger price or the new product has some advantage that the competitor doesn't. The entire point of the kickstarter is to get new idea's and products funded. If they already had the inventory then why would they kickstart?

What's missing with all these low-cost printers is a management team that can actually plan ahead, maintain inventory, and ship when you order.

Also the fact they don't have a management team is why they can keep cost so low.

Re:Business skills missing

[gl4ss]

buy through amazon.

anyhoo, there's plenty of 3d printer kits on the market that are well known designs, with 20 sources for the parts, that are shipping in a day or two of ordering. basically you're waiting 6 months to save 100 bucks(usual price for a prusa i3 kit nowadays it seems is ez3d + 100 bucks..).

good

[vodafonesertac]

oww very nice

I Want

[Anonymous Coward]

A 3d printed 3d printer.

Re:I Want

[crioca]

Those exist, they're called Repraps. http://reprap.org/

Green vomit

[AndyKron]

Please don't use the Sony Vegas soundtracks anymore. I've heard them so much in my own editing I'm ready to throw up green vomit.

Exactly why!

[MindPrison]

he and other people he knows who were making prototypes and short-run parts in the Atlanta area were continually disappointed by the poor reliability of available 3-D printers, which is why they decided to make their own.

This is exactly why I've waited years to purchase a 3D printer even though I really want one.
I'm going to wait another 5 years before the prices are right, and the usability is where it should be.

Cartesian? Na mate, not reliable.

[thatkid_2002]

A cartesian (like RepRap Mendel or this HYREL) based design always rattles itself apart and has very high stress on parts which increases as print speed increases. A SCARA (RepRap Morgan) or Delta (RepRap Rostock) have far lower stresses involved and shock from head movement is shared among multiple axis which decreases resistance/absorption problems and allows for higher print speeds.

They go on about design, and yet they failed to analyze what was the root cause of the faiures and opted to apply bandaids instead.

Re:Cartesian? Na mate, not reliable.

[floodo1]

If you're going to talk about design and machines rattling themselves apart then you might look to the design of mills for cutting metal.

Re:Cartesian? Na mate, not reliable.

[delt0r]

Normal mechanical design can and does easily deal with this. You may not be able to make it fast with 8020 and crappy 3d printed plastic. But you get what you pay for.

Re:Cartesian? Na mate, not reliable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not a matter of axis configuration, its a matter of engineering. RepRap doesn't rattle apart because its a cartesian configuration, it rattles apart because its made of ducktape, spit and hope.

Re:Cartesian? Na mate, not reliable.

[thatkid_2002]

The same approach could be applied to a SCARA or Delta design for better results again - and likely still be cheaper.

Re:Cartesian? Na mate, not reliable.

[delt0r]

There is a reason high end machines rarely have these designs. Its not because all the engineers working on it are stupid either. When you get down to the details that matter, like getting .01mm repeatably, vibration and flexure analisis. Basic Cartesian systems win out over large numbers of joins and hinges. The few machines that have been developed are not better nor are they cheaper. Which is why there really are not many of them.

Many hours

[Anonymous Coward]

"that can run many hours without breaking." That is awesome. If I can just get 5 hours, that would b great!

Show us the results

[RogueWarrior65]

This thing was funded and supposedly delivered almost two years ago. Let's hear from people who have one.

There's reliability and then there's reliability.

[mark_reh]

It seems their idea of reliability is mainly based on the lifetime of the machine, which I get, but the real reliability problem with FDM printers isn't machine longevity, but the ability to start a print and know it will finish. My machine is built using 8020 frame- no laser cut plywood, and no 3D printed parts in the structure of the machine. I have been working to eliminate reliability problems from the beginning because I want to print full size human skulls from CT scans. Such prints take anywhere from 24-48 hours. The extruder has been the #1 reliability problem- it usually has some problem about 15 hours or so into the print. I've also had some problems with filament tangling on the spool. Slicing software has problems that occur with some STL files and not others.

CAN buses are nice, but I'm not sure that does much unless youre setting up a shop with 20 machines on a network. Show me an extruder than can run without fail for 48 hours at a time and I'll throw some money at it.

Re:There's reliability and then there's reliabilit

[delt0r]

Right now the stereolithography method has become much more viable for this sort of thing. The UV curing resins are now much cheaper and are comparable in price to to plastics used in FDM machines. With modern UV LEDs or laser didoes and a over simpler mechanical construction as well as better resolution. Personally i am looking at making one with a hacked tablet and a UV led array.

Commercial models are still a bit pricey. But the DIY market is starting to get stuck in.

I don't think this is noteworthy!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is incredibly expensive for what it is: $1995 for their LOWEST END MODEL.
This machine is equivalent to a Printerbot, which costs $599 assembled: http://printrbot.com/shop/assembled-simple-metal/

That said, Delta/Kossel printers are 2-3x faster, have larger build areas, less drawbacks, have less problems with wear, and are much more accurate.
Also, most Delta/Kossel designs are open source -- you can download and print the parts yourself, and make improvements and derivatives of them as you see fit.
This printer is closed source, and you're pretty much overpaying for a 3 year old, out of date design.

Here is a good, open sourced Delta/Kossel printer design for $650: http://www.ultibots.com/kossel-250-v-slot-3d-printer-diy-kit-beta/

PS. I've built 4 Kossel printers and examined a lot of other ones. I typically print extremely clean parts at 90mm/sec, with 200 micron layers. Try that with a cantilevered Cartesian design! :-)

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When I First Saw the Title

[ComputersKai]

I thought they'd created a 3-D printer using a 3-D printer.