Slashdot Mirror


Is LTO Tape On Its Way Out?

storagedude writes: With LTO media sales down by 50% in the last six years, is the end near for tape? With such a large installed base, it may not be imminent, but the time is coming when vendors will find it increasingly difficult to justify continued investment in tape technology, writes Henry Newman at Enterprise Storage Forum.

"If multiple vendors invest in a technology, it has a good chance of winning over the long haul," writes Newman, a long-time proponent of tape technology. "If multiple vendors have a technology they're not investing in, it will eventually lose over time. Of course, over time market requirements can change. It is these interactions that I fear that are playing out in the tape market."

26 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. Shyeah, right. by jra · · Score: 4, Informative

    Magtape is the only viable medium for things which are actually "backups" as that term is understood in the professional IT arena. Every other possible medium for backups has faults which cripple it for one or more of the requirements which backups are required to fulfill -- primarily that's length of storage, but there are lot of other fun failure modes.

    Sure, spinning magnetic storage, optical media, and flash drives each have some advantages for specific purposes.

    But go pull the post-close EOY General Journal from 1996 off of one, I dare you.

    And if you think that's an overly strict requirement, a) you're probably wrong, and b) I can come up with lots more that you won't.

    My commercial backup guidelines are these:

    You need it backed up on at least 4 pieces of media, of at least 3 different types, in at least 2 different cities, in at least 1 different state; bumping each of those numbers up by 1 is not unreasonable.

    Only one backup can be on optical media; only one can be on spinning magnetic media, whether it's powered or not (this includes the cloud, and local external HDD backups, whether powered 24/7, alternating, or pulled and shelved).

    Flash media is right out, as are SSDs.

    I can pull 20 year old DC3000 tapes off my shelf and read them -- as long as I have a SCSI interface for the computer in question.

    GNU tar is great that way.

    1. Re:Shyeah, right. by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Informative

      I still have SDLT tapes that are still readable after 15 years. Hell I have Bernoulli disks that are still readable. The one working like new drive was packed with it along with an assortment of SCSI cables and a current working SCSI to USB adapter and a linux driver on a CD. hopefully if anyone needs to read that data in the future they will figure it out.

      I actually did the same thing 3 years ago for a friend. he arrived with a stack of 9 track tapes and a desktop tape drive. Luckily I was able to find an older PC with an ISA slot and installed the card linux had drivers for it and even had the tools to convert the data to standard ASCII. Read all 20 tapes and handed him a DVD disk with the contents of all the tapes. Made a cool $2000 for sitting and watching tape spin. it was cool.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Shyeah, right. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      in at least 1 different state

      Are you expecting an entire state to disappear? I mean, I've heard jokes about California falling into the ocean, but a requirement of having backups in two different states seems kind of extreme.

      But I guess it could happen. That's why I always insist on keeping at least one backup in low Earth orbit and another on one of the moons of Jupiter. This way, if Galactus shows up and eats the Earth, I'll still be able to pull my post-close EOY General Journal from 1996. Or at least I will be if SpaceX can ever figure out this manned space flight thing.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Shyeah, right. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hell I have Bernoulli disks that are still readable.

      Nothing beats clay tablets.

      The Babylonians can still pull up their post-close EOY General Journal from 2759 BC if they need it.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:Shyeah, right. by sconeu · · Score: 5, Funny

      How did they know to put "BC" on the EOY General Journal?

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    5. Re:Shyeah, right. by brokenin2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree.

      We used to use LTO, and it was OK for a while, but we switched to using removable hard drives and rsync a long time ago and haven't regretted it one bit.

      We're every bit as paranoid as the next guy (there *might* be some more paranoid, but not many).

      We've pulled 10 year old hard drives off the shelf before and recovered things no problem. Our rotation won't ever require us to actually do that, but we have tested it a number of times and things worked great.

      What we do though, is periodically update our archived copies to newer media when we update our removable drives.. Often times, this allows us to merge old archive media onto fewer drives saving us a lot of space in the long run. We do have multiple copies, including 3 sets that are permanently online in different locations, and a number of offline sets.. As our backups age, we reduce the number of copies we keep offline, but never go below 3 offline copies of any given data.

      The real reason that this is fantastic though, isn't that it backs up so much faster (it does, because after a drive has rsync'd once, there usually aren't many changed files compared to the bulk of the rest of the data). The real reason that this is fantastic isn't because we save space and reduce our need to have old hardware with SCSI interfaces etc (it does though). The real reason this is fantastic isn't because when you take older/smaller drives out of the loop, you can actually repurpose them (you can though.. what are you going to do with a bunch of left-over too small LTO tapes).

      The real reason that this is fantastic, is that in the event of a catastrophe, you can get things up and running very quickly. If you're really in a panic, you can boot off of the drive that is that backup disk because we add an OS to them when we prep the drives. You just need any old POS PC with SATA on it and a copy of the file used for decryption, and you can be up and running in minutes. Even for the lighter weight emergencies random access to your data is still quite priceless. You can go directly to the file you need, or even multiple versions of it, instead of waiting for tape media to scan.

      In short, yes. LTO is dead whether it knows it yet or not.

    6. Re: Shyeah, right. by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      The poster auto-converted the date for them. A favor.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    7. Re:Shyeah, right. by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Hate to burst your bubble but magnetic bits on plastic are magnetic bits on plastic whether tape, disc or flash drives. Don't become confused with old tapes being reliable, they are reliable temporarily because they were a low density storage format and over years as the storage density increase, just like hard disk drives they tended to become less reliable. Flash media is happy sitting in the dark for a very long time, it wears out with multiple writes not multiple reads or very rare reads. The advantage of course with say flash media is that via a mass storage adaptor, your storage system could provide you instant read only access to all your stored archives at what would be now a reasonable price. You can actually build a storage array of thousands of flash drives, which of course is what a SSD drive technically is. So the balance is the cost of archive storage media, the cost of storing that media, the cost of the storage facility and the cost of accessing that data. Companies will find spending much more on storage media will achieve major savings in all other areas. Inevitably flash type storage will win out, it is only a matter of continuing development time, simplicity of writing data to them and later accessing it from them gives that medium a huge advantage.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    8. Re:Shyeah, right. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      The orbital mechanics can get a bit tricky; but interplanetary distances open the possibility of reviving good, old-fashioned, delay-line memory...

      Just think of how much data you could keep in-flight if you just replaced Pluto with a nice orbital mirror and told your vendor "GIVE ME AN XFP MODULE OF TERRIBLE POWER."

      For real archiving, of course, you'll need to look at siting your mirror outside the solar system for a longer round trip.

    9. Re:Shyeah, right. by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I used to use tape for backup. The reason I stopped was that it stopped being cost effective. There was a time when you could buy one-generation-before-current tape drives, back your entire hard drive up more than once on a tape, and if you bought more than a dozen tapes, you spent less money overall than buying hard drives for those backups.

      For about the last decade, tape has lagged so far behind hard drives that this hasn't been the case. You couldn't back up a high-capacity hard drive on last-generation tape. In fact, the current-generation LTO-6 only holds 2.5 TB uncompressed, so in the worst case, you can back up any hard drive built before 2010 (when the first 3 TB hard drives came out). And that tape technology didn't come out until 2012.

      And you'll spend almost $3k on the drive, plus $45 per tape, or $18 per terabyte. Hard drives are currently running at $30 per TB. So ignoring differences in risk between a hard drive on a shelf and a tape, the break-even point is at a whopping 250 TB—almost an order of magnitude more than is reasonable for most businesses, much less consumers. Unless you're doing data warehousing, this break-even point is simply too high to be practical. Yet this is the smallest tape drive that is practical for any serious use, because one-generation-old drives (LTO-5) take 2–3 tapes just to back up an average desktop hard drive once, and the break-even point at $33 for 1.5 TB is still over 200 TB. That's just nuts. If you're willing to use ten tapes per drive, you could use LTO-3, but at $30 per terabyte plus the cost of the drive, you never break even at all.

      To make a long story short, tape died the moment they stopped building tape drives targeted at normal consumers. As with all specialized products that are too expensive for normal people to afford, over time, cheaper, more consumer-friendly technologies begin to take advantage of their dramatically higher sales volume to drive R&D that allows them to eventually become "good enough" to be used in place of those niche "professional" products for their least demanding customers, thus causing the market to get smaller and smaller. As demand drops, prices then increase, causing even more potential customers to start looking for alternatives, until eventually the death spiral reaches its ultimate and inevitable end: a market that has dried up completely. This same scenario has played out in industry after industry over the years, and anybody who didn't see the writing on the wall more than a decade back must not have been paying attention.

      Want me to stop saying tape is dead? Prove me wrong. Ship a consumer-grade LTO-6 drive for $300. Make tape a feasible backup medium for consumers and small businesses. Short of such a drastic step, tape is pretty much doomed to fade into obsolescence. At this point, I'm firmly convinced that the only real question anyone should be asking is how best to handle backups and archiving in a post-tape world; without a giant cash infusion and a radical change in the leadership of companies that build these products, it's not a matter of whether, but rather a matter of when.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    10. Re:Shyeah, right. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      The idea is that your backups should be far enough apart that they won't be caught in the same natural disaster.

      Oh, OK. That makes sense. Like if you were in the Northeast when Hurricane Sandy hit. You'd probably want it like several states away to be safe. Maybe one in New Jersey and one in Chicago, where the only natural disasters are the Cubs and Bears.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:Shyeah, right. by PaddyM · · Score: 3, Funny

      the reels on the tapes go
      click clack clink
      click clack clank
      click clack clunk
      the reels on the tape go
      snip snap break
      all through the head

      The real backups go
      to the cloud
      to the cloud
      to the cloud
      The real backups go
      to the cloud
      all through the tubes ... or in iTunes

      Right? Barbara Streisand... do do do do do do

    12. Re:Shyeah, right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Texas is definitely a different state.

    13. Re:Shyeah, right. by RenHoek · · Score: 2

      If you think 250TB of backup is a lot, then you don't need tape.

      I currently backup about 1PB and data storage is growing exponentially here (gene sequencing data). Tape is the only cost effective solution for us.

      I do agree though that tapedrives are ridiculously expensive but it's a sellers market. Tapedrives don't sell in massive quantities so the price stays up, mainly because there just aren't that many suppliers.

      On the other hand. I called a shop a while ago to see what they'd give for our 5x LTO4 tapedrives since we upgraded to LTO6 and they only offered us 30 euros per drive. So if you don't need the latest drive out there, you can save a lot of money by buying second-hand.

    14. Re:Shyeah, right. by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes I do, when he is making money off of my work, I get paid. Let me guess you are one of those complete scumbags that expect friends are your slaves?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  2. Re:its all about selling Autoloaders by jra · · Score: 4, Informative

    LTO-9 goes to 25TB/cart, LTO-10 goes to 48TB.

    Already announced.

    And wouldn't it be interesting to know if that study was based on cartridge count or capacity?

    Of *course* the cart count is going down, not *everyone's* data storage needs expand without bounds, and newer larger sizes imply some catch-up.

  3. Re:its all about selling Autoloaders by bored · · Score: 2

    The T10kd which came out over a year ago, puts 8.5TB uncompressed on a tape (reusing the previous generation's media no less). So, basically the vendors are holding LTO back for unspecified reasons, probably in a vain attempt to recoup the last generations investment, or maybe to boost sales of their "enterprise" drives (T10kd, 3592).

  4. Tape Culture Fallacy by daive · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a fan of tape backup when managed responsibly, but there's a fallacy that goes with recommending tape for backups: because you can train semitechnical users to dutifully change tapes and carry them offsite (e.g. on a bank run to a safe deposit box), tape gets recommended for businesses who don't have dedicated IT. But the duty of of maintaining the backup gets delegated from the original trained user, and changing the tapes becomes the whole of the backup maintenance: no one actually verifies that the backup job is running properly. I've been on calls to clients who've diligently changes their tapes nightly, but the backup software has been crashed for months...

    1. Re:Tape Culture Fallacy by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2
      It is normally impassible due to time constraints to do a restore check after every backup.

      I thnn you mean "impossible",

      You dont need to check restore after every backup, but you most certainly need to do it quarterly, after every OS upgrade, and probably any time hardware is modded/reconfigured, or tampered with.

      DO NOT USE PROPRIETRY BACKUP SOFTWARE FOR ARCHIVE - EVER! When you want the data back, the company will be dead and buried, and any documentation of the tape format will not relate to the version you were using. I used to work for a company that made popular tape backup software (it was very fast). For 8 months the restore function was seriously defective and not a single customer reported it. (OK, it was in the days of QIC02).

      If the data has any long term value, use tar. Tar from RSX11 days is still readable on FreeBSD - I have tried it. Not using Unix? It is safe to assume you don't need the data anyway!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  5. Offsite storage farms by Webmoth · · Score: 2

    Tape media's greatest benefit is its long storage life. Providing you have the equipment to do it, you could read a tape created 25 years ago.

    Tape media's greatest liability is its long storage life. Will you be able to find equipment to read it 25 years from now? If not, you have what we call write-only media.

    I think that tape is going to disappear as a viable storage medium, at least in the small business sector. The equipment and media is expensive, and most small businesses don't have the resources to employ someone trained in proper media management.

    The replacement is going to be offsite storage farms, whether from a third-party cloud provider, or farms owned by the company that needs the backups. As the per-byte cost of disk storage continually and rapidly falls and wide-area network (Internet) bandwidth increases, offsite/online backups are becoming more and more feasible. Data deduplication and image management software technologies mean that a company can have daily backups completely automated and available as far back as they want. Restoring a file or two from these backups is quick and easy. My company already supports several small businesses using this backup technology; as existing tape drives fail they are seldom being replaced with more tape hardware.

    The downside of offsite/online backups is that bare-metal recovery of a failed system from those backups is still extremely time-consuming. Eventually the bandwidth will become available to make it viable; until then tape still seems to be the best option for bare-metal recovery.

    --
    Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
  6. Re:So how is the price... by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When measuring the cost of backups, the cost of the media is often a small footnote. The cost of off-site storage can end up costing way more depending on how frequently they pick up, how long you store the tapes, and how frequently you need to do emergency restores.. Note that you left off the "time" component of the AWS cost structure -- the cost is *per month*. Still, AWS has some serious advantages over tape -- like the cost of robotic tape drives and the housing and maintenance costs that go along with them (if you have that sort of need). Plus, if you are a big enough customer, those 1 cent/GB/mo costs go down quite a bit.

    --
    the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
  7. Re: I would buy... by iluvcapra · · Score: 2

    It's the LTO drive itself that kills you, the drive and the SCSI card will set you back a couple $K to start.

    It starts to make sense once the "backup bandwidth", the frequency of backups times the size of the archive, exceeds a couple TB/week, but it just makes no sense to spend $2K to keep a backup of $500 worth of drives, particularly in a situation where you just don't need to have the weekly tapes from two years ago and the last working tree is the only one worth keeping.

    If you take the MTBF for a large hard drive, the averaged cost of failure per year might be like $50 per TB per year. (Total POOMA numbers, but it's probably the right order of magnitude.) HDDs have low fixed costs but a higher cost per gig, tapes have a much higher fixed cost but lower cost per gig, so wether one or the other is more economic depends on how much you're backing up, the level of reliability you need, so many different factors.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  8. Science by chuckymonkey · · Score: 2

    Working in climate science I can tell you that tape for us isn't going anywhere. Our investment gets larger in it every year, at least monetarily and capacity wise. Several of our groups have growth curves that scale linearly with the output of the supercomputers, meaning our growth is almost exponential. Most of this data is static and doesn't really change once it's been produced, but it does need to be read from time to time. There's no other solution out there that takes little to no power to store, no cooling, and can keep the data for years with minimal loss of integrity. We have data that goes back to the 1940's that we have to keep almost forever, this historical data is hugely important in how we create the models and cannot be lost. So we have to have somewhere to store all that data for the long haul, LTO is the medium of choice because it's vendor agnostic, fast enough, cheap, and large enough to handle what we need it to handle.

    --
    "Some books contain the machinery required to create and sustain universes."-Tycho
  9. R&D: Only three companies left by scsirob · · Score: 3, Informative

    Tape is great for archive purposes. It would be a shame if LTO dies.
    The biggest threat to LTO is the lack of vendors developing drives. At this time only very few companies do R&D for tape devices. IBM, HP and Oracle are the only serious players.

    Oracle develops only Enterprise class drives (T10K), not LTO. The market for those drives is quite small, which means the R&D cost needs to be recovered from a relatively low volume. That makes them bl**dy expensive.

    HP develops LTO. They have to do R&D for LTO only, as they have no enterprise class drives. LTO is considered commodity so margins are too low to spend a lot on R&D. They will therefor struggle to be cost effective.

    IBM develops both an enterprise class (Jaguar) and LTO tape drives. From a tech perspective, IBM are in the best position, as they can develop new technology for their enterprise drives, recoup cost in that segment, and then commoditize the technology in their LTO drives. Unfortunately IBM no longer wants to be a hardware company.

    This does not bode well for tape technology in general. I've made a good living from it writing software for tape drives, but I guess all good things come to an end.

    --
    To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
  10. Remember the Y0K Fiasco? by See+Attached · · Score: 2

    Didn't you get that papyrus-memo? Everyone wanted to require a Negative number on all the clay tablets. The scribes were looking forward to the overtime, the Donkey cart guys were in favor of shipping em from Helios mountain DR site, but Ceasar said no and settled on AD for Go-Forward only.

    --
    Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
  11. Re:So how is the price... by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 2

    AWS perhaps even a bit cheaper. But any and all benefit is gone the instant they needed to restore anything substantial.

    What counts as substantial? Pulling a number out of my ass, but 1/4 of all of your data?

    To do this, you'd basically want to overnight to AWS some HDDs and restore your data to S3 while your HDDs are on the way to AWS. Charges:

    Restore 12TB of data in a day from Glacier: ~$3600
    Handling fees on 3 external HDDs: $240
    Data loading: $100, or so. This is for eSATA.
    Shipping: Figure, what, $75 or so?

    So to retrieve 12TB from glacier in 3 business days, you're looking in the $4000 range. I've never actually done this, but I'm calculating 3 days as 1 day to get the drives to AWS, AWS loads your data that day, and then returns the drives to you via 2 day return shipping.

    Note that this cost goes down significantly if you don't need the data so quickly. If you can restore the data from Glacer over a period of a week, the restore portion (line 1 above) will cost only $500 instead of $3600.

    I'll grant you that all of the above are still pretty big numbers, but they certainly are not multiples of $10k.

    All that being said, if you ever have to restore so much data from Glacier, either your business has suffered a serious disaster, in which case spending $4000 to get your data back is probably not a big deal, or you are not using Glacier as it was intended. I.e. you don't load today's backups into Glacier. You archive one of last year's backup snapshots into Glacier. Glacier is for data that you never want to see again, but may be forced to see again for some reason.

    An example use of Glacier: a relative of mine is a retired doctor who kept his office space only for medical records storage in case he got sued at some point in the future over something and needed to get a record back. I told him he could save a ton of money if he got those records scanned and archived to the cloud. Together, we found a company that would scan all of the 35+ years worth of records, organize them, encrypt them, store them in Glacier, and shred the originals. I forget what the $ worked out to, but it was a huge savings. He'll probably never get sued and will probably never need those records again, but if he does, he can still get what he needs.

    --
    They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock