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Hacker Threatened With 44 Felony Charges Escapes With Misdemeanor

An anonymous reader writes: It's no secret that prosecutors usually throw every charge they can at an alleged criminal, but the case of Aaron Swartz brought to light how poorly-written computer abuse laws lend themselves to this practice. Now, another perfect example has resolved itself: a hacker with ties to Anonymous was recently threatened with 44 felony counts of computer fraud and cyberstalking, each with its own 10-year maximum sentence. If the charges stuck, the man was facing multiple lifetimes worth of imprisonment.

But, of course, they didn't. Prosecutors struck a deal to get him to plead guilty to a single misdemeanor charge, which carried only a $10,000 fine. The man's attorney, Tor Eklund, said, "The more I looked at this, the more it seemed like an archetypal example of the Department of Justice's prosecutorial abuse when it comes to computer crime. It shows how aggressive they are, and how they seek to destroy your reputation in the press even when the charges are complete, fricking garbage."

219 comments

  1. The charges are complete garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But he still need to pay ten thousand dollars?

    1. Re:The charges are complete garbage by dywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the whole point in throwing the boko at someone and then extracting a plea deal.
      To get you to admit guilt, even if there is none, to aoid the possibility of spending a lifetime behind bars if you should lose an actual court case.
      Our jails arent overstuffed because of trials and convictions, but because of plea deals.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    2. Re:The charges are complete garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the whole point in throwing the boko at someone and then extracting a plea deal.
      To get you to admit guilt, even if there is none, to aoid the possibility of spending a lifetime behind bars if you should lose an actual court case.
      Our jails arent overstuffed because of trials and convictions, but because of plea deals.

      Without plea deals the system would grind to a halt. On the upside, that would result in a lot of people who shouldn't be behind bars being loose; on the downside, a lot of people who have no business going unpunished would be free.

      There should be more conditional plea deals--you plead guilty but still maintain the right to some sliver of justice. They do this a lot for certain fourth amendment violations, but if you did it more, it could be a sort of workable middle-ground. You plead guilty but still get to have a mini-trial on just one or two really important points to your case, that kind of thing.

      Most defendants are guilty, it's just that the law is massively overreaching, so they're guilty of something that shouldn't be punished the way it is.

      Some defendants are innocent. It's rare but far from unheard of. It's the few people who are innocent and plead innocent and refuse to take a plea who break your heart, because they go to jail for decades.

    3. Re:The charges are complete garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the system grinds to a halt without plea deals then the system is irredemably fucked up and is in need of deep reform.

    4. Re:The charges are complete garbage by yacc143 · · Score: 2

      Well, without a trial, how do you know they are guilty?

      They admit guilt, because the punishment for the trumped up charges is so out of relation to the crime that happened for real. (Which does not mean that the defendant did the crime, or even a real crime happened, it's just the "visibile" thing) Now we've already concluded that many people take the plea deal to avoid that risk. (Hint: Because of minimum sentencing standards yet another safety valve has been disabled, e.g. the judge sentencing you for a dozen guilty counts to 40 hours social services, because he can see the real scope of the "crime").

      So without that coerced admission of guilt how do you know that these guys are guilty? Just because the prosecutor (which risks nothing if he puts an innocent on death row, actually, getting the gulty verdicts even if they are turned over a decade later might be a career boost) says so?

      One of the relevant outcomes of the American revolution was the right to a jury trial to avoid these kinds of abuses. The government has managed to void this right by putting an incredible high price (e.g. risk to spend your life in prison for something that might be a misdemeanour worth of a $500 fine. Or not even that.)

      One last thing, yes, jury trials are a load for the system. But somebody is creating the load. Notice that many of these "small stuff" in most European countries would have been handled (as being dropped, converted to an "voluntary" reparation) much earlier, e.g. at the police level.

      And before you cry, I live in big city, and I can walk the dog in the "worst" part of the city at night, don't carry, and the expected outcome is that I'll just get home, and the dog might be slightly tired. (Not the expected value for some US cities, where I was told by locals, no you cannot carry that expensive looking stuff in the subway). So while our mild justice system can be frustrating from time to time (because you often have the feeling that the perp is getting of easy), it seems to work better than the harsh system (walked the street with a red light, oops, it's 3rd strike, so it's mandatory life in prison).

  2. He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So the prosecutors 'won' in the end...

    1. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They didn't even pay their own salaries with that fine.

    2. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This. The "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks so we can negotiate a plea bargain to avoid a real trial" methods of prosecutors in what passes for the modern criminal justice system is just sickening.

    3. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      So, systemically, how do you combat that? I'm on board with supporting reform, but complaining isn't the same as reform.

      Keep in mind actively punish prosecutors for procedural violations won't happen for political reasons.

    4. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      I don't know if I buy that prosecutors throw *everything* they can at you. I was charged with shoplifting once, and I didn't even get a public defender. Instead had to argue my case with the prosecutor directly, and she herself filed a motion to dismiss, which the judge approved. She said her goal was justice.

      Just prior to that (I had to sit in the court room and watch her and other prosecutors argue their case against other defendants until it was my turn) I watched her tell the judge that she wasn't offering any kind of plea deal against the previous defendant and that she wanted to go to trial with him, which I'm guessing in his case she had some pretty clear cut evidence for conviction.

      (I went home very relieved that day as I had just gotten done watching the BOOK getting THROWN at people by the judge for similar crimes just prior to the judge smiling at me and telling me my case had been dismissed and I may leave.)

    5. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not just modern. This isn't anything new. Prosecutors don't want justice, they're evaluated based on % of convictions, not the % of accused people receiving fair treatment.

    6. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      You gotta elect people who will rewrite the law. Or you can call a constitutional convention. Either way, it's pretty straight up. If you vote for garbage, don't complain when you get garbage, and especially when you all reuse the same garbage for 20-30 years in some cases. And please, save me all the bullshit about money. Just tune it out.

      Now, since we are dealing with a vast majority(98% at present) who will dance to anything, maybe it's time to consider alternatives to majority rule. Some sort of lottery system that would make political campaigns and party affiliations obsolete, and put an end to the career in public service. Everybody over 35 or 40 is subject to being conscripted in. Give them some time to experience life first. Make it like the military, do your three years, and then GTFO, with a small severance, of say six months pay, which would also be reduced to a less obscene level.. You'll still get the occasional Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin, Pelosi, and Cruz, but they won't have the powerful financial alliances and the time to cause any irreparable damage. Regardless of what system you use, if you don't apply proper oversight, you are farting into the wind..

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    7. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about not allowing prosecutors to change the charge depending on the plea bargain?

      If the prosecutor thinks a person is guilty of X, don't allow them to accept a plea for Y. The most they should be able to offer is a recommendation to the judge of non-maximum sentence.

    8. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You fight it in court and then take out a civil action against the department for malicious prosecution.
      You can't file a malicious prosecution against criminal attorneys but you can go against their bosses who green-lighted the case and the plea offers. You could also prosecute them for selective prosecution if you feel you were singled out from a group to be prosecuted.

    9. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm on board with supporting reform, but complaining isn't the same as reform.

      Unfortunately, complaining is all I am good for. I do not have any ideas on how to combat this, I am not smart enough.

      But that does not mean I cannot recognize that it is bullshit that needs fixing.

    10. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by wormparoxysm · · Score: 1

      Obviously he pled rat.

      That's the more obvious explanation and is standard m.o. of law enforcement dealing with private hacker chatrooms.

    11. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by almitydave · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, there are plenty of public servants who are motivated by a desire to, you know, serve the public, but they don't make headlines or get famous so you don't hear about them much. They could very well be (and probably do) constitute the vast majority.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    12. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by knightghost · · Score: 0

      Good point. The DoJ needs it's budget cut by at least 1/3.

    13. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by knightghost · · Score: 0

      Local prosecutors have to follow ethics rules. Federal prosecutors do not.

    14. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by almitydave · · Score: 1

      In a democracy (or representative republic), ultimately the buck stops with the voters. Prosecutors aren't kings, they answer to somebody who answers to somebody (who answers to somebody...) who answers to you, the voter.

      Find out who in your municipality or jurisdiction has to power to appoint or censure prosecutors, and if they're doing a bad job, then complain, vote against them, start a public campaign; hell, run for office yourself if you have to.

      The American system of government requires a populace that pays attention and holds their leaders accountable (clichéd, but true), and a press that responsibly covers the things that matter so voters are informed. Like the other cynics here, I believe that parts of this system are damaged; however I don't think they're beyond repair. People will always care about justice, and when things get bad enough, change happens.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    15. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by almitydave · · Score: 1

      Whoops, that was supposed to be in reply to the comment above.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    16. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      This is the kind of thing I like to get out of these conversations. This could work at solving the problem, now all we need is a large political apparatus to push it.

    17. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Nyder · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know if I buy that prosecutors throw *everything* they can at you. I was charged with shoplifting once, and I didn't even get a public defender. Instead had to argue my case with the prosecutor directly, and she herself filed a motion to dismiss, which the judge approved. She said her goal was justice.

      Just prior to that (I had to sit in the court room and watch her and other prosecutors argue their case against other defendants until it was my turn) I watched her tell the judge that she wasn't offering any kind of plea deal against the previous defendant and that she wanted to go to trial with him, which I'm guessing in his case she had some pretty clear cut evidence for conviction.

      (I went home very relieved that day as I had just gotten done watching the BOOK getting THROWN at people by the judge for similar crimes just prior to the judge smiling at me and telling me my case had been dismissed and I may leave.)

      I have been arrested mainly times in my life. I was a no good junkie who supported my habit by shoplifting. During my stupid 15 year drug addiction, I've gotten in to a lot of scrapes legally, some of which I wasn't guilty of, just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Most the shit I was guilty of.
      The problem? Because I could no afford to pay bail, or get a decent lawyer, I was always stuck with public defenders. During probably 20 court trials, I have had only 1 good public defender that actually tried to get shit done, rest the time, they didn't give a fuck. And because I didn't want to stay in jail till trial (which would of been at least 6 months of jail time), I'd take guilty pleas so I'd end up staying in jail a week or so.

      TL;DR I did bad shit, I went to jail for it. Because I was poor and couldn't ever bail out, I would of spent years in jail waiting on trials for crimes that don't ever carry more then a month in jail. So I plea bargained because otherwise I'd spend more time in jail trying to prove my freedom, then actually taking the guilty plea and time served.

      Fucked up system.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    18. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jopsen · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, there are plenty of public servants who are motivated by a desire to, you know, serve the public, but they don't make headlines or get famous so you don't hear about them much.

      True... I suspect the only reason a governor like Chris Christie is even being talked about with respect to 2016 is because he is in the media.
      Granted I don't follow American politics closely, but it seems to me he is only in the media because he is borderline crazy...

    19. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      This. The "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks so we can negotiate a plea bargain to avoid a real trial" methods of prosecutors in what passes for the modern criminal justice system is just sickening.

      I agree. It makes me wonder. If they threaten you with thousands of years of imprisonment and millions in fines and you plead guilty to some small violation that you didn't do in order to avoid the possibility of all that punishment for the other crimes you didn't commit, can they then bring you up on charges of perjury for lying in court and saying you committed a crime when you did not?

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    20. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The easiest way to combat prosecutorial abuse would be:
      Providing for compensation for charges being lost in court. Something like a 1/3rd rule, that is someone disproves 1/3rd of the charges against them the rest are dismissed by the judge. Create a penalty for overcharging.

      Less drastic. Strengthening the grand jury system to make it more like an inquisitorial system trial ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... ). Good quality analysis so that indictments represent the community and not just prosecutors gaming the system.

      Even less drastic. Elect prosecutors who are moderates or liberals on crime. Many DAs are elected offices or answer to attorney generals that are elected. Those aren't elected often need to go through a confirmation process by elected officials.

    21. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That systems exists in a lot of European courts. It is very bad because in that situation the defendant almost never has a reason to cooperate. At best they plead no contest. Since you never get a full confession you have no check on whether people did the crime.

    22. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      can they then bring you up on charges of perjury for lying in court and saying you committed a crime when you did not?

      Yes. Not only that they can bring the prosecutor up for pressuring you to perjure yourself if your confession was clearly false to a reasonable person of his skill.

    23. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by stinerman · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. If the crime you're charged with carries a maximum month sentence, you should be out on bail after the month automatically.

      I'm also glad to hear that you've turned your life around. Well done, sir.

    24. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by meerling · · Score: 2

      Some prosecutors have ethics and follow the rules.

    25. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Whereas in the American system, the accused has an incentive to provide a false confession.

    26. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are too many people who are too busy making ends meet. There are to many people afraid of losing their toys. We need a critical percentage of people who have nothing to lose. Apart from that, nothing will change.

      It's pitting life and property against liberty.

    27. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I'd agree. Good point. Perhaps the best thing would be the American system plus a lengthy detailed confession requirement.

    28. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      Yo that's a pretty solid idea.

      Prosecutors decide what crime you violated, and then after that their hands are tied. If they can't nail you for that then their options are exhausted. This would have good and bad effects but maybe the good would be the greater portion. I'd have to think about it but it's at least a pretty good idea.

    29. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 3, Informative

      That systems exists in a lot of European courts. It is very bad because in that situation the defendant almost never has a reason to cooperate. At best they plead no contest. Since you never get a full confession you have no check on whether people did the crime.

      But in the current US system you get confessions in about 10% of the cases where we know that people were actually innocent (the innocence project tracks this).

      We don't have plea bargains in Sweden and on balance I can't say I look forward to having them. If they were ever introduced I think they should be capped at (say) max 10% or 15% or some such. I.e. none of that "I'm seeking 99 years in prison, but I'll settle for six months" as is currently not uncommon with US prosecutors. By stopping the prosecutor from lowering the sought penalty more than a reasonable percentage, you could balance the system to where it would be both worth to cooperate, but also not possible for the prosecutor to extort the defendant by skewing the risk/reward calculation to the extent that is common today.

      P.S. And of course, in Sweden, if the state prosecutes you, they pay for your defence (i.e. the lawyer of your choice, reimbursed at a proper rate), and prosecutors are appointed, not elected. Last place I want a bloody politician...

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    30. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's probably because you're a white male out of a white middle class family. If you had been black, you'd have gone to prison.

    31. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2

      The defendant should not have a reason at all to cooperate and should be allowed to remain silent. It's the duty of the prosecutors to prove the crime, and if they have no solid evidence to start with then the case should never have gone to court.

    32. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 0

      For a justice system to function guilty people need to have reason to confess their guilt and engage in a process of reconciliation with the community. You are talking about creating a strong incentive to lie. It is also much too expensive to administer.

    33. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's a good solution potentially.

          So say we cap it at a 50% reduction. How can you enforce that?
      Prosecutor changes X with crimes A carrying L years, B carrying M years and C carrying N years. With L M,N. He decides that X is not guilty of B and C and drops the charges. How is that prevented?

    34. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That should be L < M,N. Didn't realize I had to use HTML there. Sorry.

    35. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That just makes you a fool.

      At arraignment they intentionally put the more serious cases on the docket before yours because they wanted to intimidate you.

      You have a Constitutional RIGHT to a quick and speedy trial by an impartial jury of your peers. prosecutors like you to believe they don't have to follow that, and they don't SO LONG AS YOU DON'T OBJECT.

      Remember, lower laws do not trump higher laws. The highest law in the land prevails over all, regardless of anything they say to you.

      Remain silent, but tell the judge at your arraignment that you do not waive ANY of your rights, and you wish to exercise your right to a quick and speedy trial by jury.

    36. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      plus a lengthy detailed confession requirement.

      I sure the police will be more than happy to help with that. We had a case in Germany with a lengthy confession that put a whole family into prison, excluding the father witch starred as murder victim. A year later they pulled the father including his car from a river, which didn't quite mesh with being brutally murdered and fed to his pigs - the interrogators it turns out used the occasion to write their own crime drama and informed the family members that not signing it could only end worse. Our judges - which have a fetish for official documents - refused to void the fake confessions as they where in paper and as such THE TRUTH (TM) and once the body turned up they informed the public that no retrial would happen as the initial trial was done by the book and justice was served as required by law.

    37. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      But there would still be a reason to cooperate. If the punishment for the crime is X to Y years, confessing would make it more likely that it would just be X. So in cases where evidence is strong, the public will likely be spared the cost of a trial and the criminal would still 'profit' by confessing. But a guilty person couldn't be forced into 'accepting' a sentence of X just to avoid being charged with crimes totaling 1000X.

    38. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You may be able to go after the criminal attorney. If his actions were milicious, he is not in performance of his duties, or he colluded or conspired.

    39. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      So, systemically, how do you combat that?

      Make plea bargaining illegal. What's gained by it?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    40. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Man, you couldn't be more mistaken and confused. The right to remain silent and not to incriminate oneself is a very basic and foundational principle of justice and due process. Of course, there should later be incentives for admitting guilt and for reconciliation with the community, but these should take effect after the verdict, e.g. in prison when people have plenty of time to think about what they did - not in the form self-incrimination during prosecution!

    41. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      If the crime you're charged with carries a maximum month sentence, you should be out on bail after the month automatically.

      Bail? If you've been in jail for a month, you've served the sentence already, deservedly so or not, so what is the bail for?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    42. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Some sort of lottery system that would make political campaigns and party affiliations obsolete, and put an end to the career in public service.

      Thus making lobbyists more powerful, since they are now dealing with amateurs. Amateurs who's lives have been interrupted, and who are thus in desperate need of future financial security. Sounds like a good plan.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    43. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Since you never get a full confession you have no check on whether people did the crime.

      Since a confession doesn't mean the person did the crime, and pleading innocence also doesn't prove said innocence, I really don't see how confession has any value whatsoever. You either can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they did it, or you can not. And while a confession including, say, the hiding place of the body has some weight to it, this weight is no more so than would demonstrating the suspect has knowledge of the specifics of the crime in some other way.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    44. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no you have to have quality police work restrain by warrant requirement

    45. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Cases going through the court system faster, due to guilty pleas.

      Which I suspect isn't worth it since that it results in guilty people getting lighter charges and innocent people pleading guilty to avoid the chance long jail terms (we all know innocent people get convicted - that people are later exonerated is proof of that).

    46. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      ...pleading innocence also doesn't prove said innocence...

      No defendant ever pleads innocence, and I don't think that such a plea is even allowed. The plea is "not guilty," and for good reason: in order to avoid conviction with a plea of innocent, you'd have to prove that you didn't commit the crime, and it's exceptionally hard in most cases to prove a negative. "Not guilty" is used instead because you only have to persuade the jury that there's a reasonable chance that you are not, in fact, guilty. And, as far as the value of a confession, IANAL, but my understanding is that once you confess under oath, the law presumes that you did, in fact, commit the crime and that fact can be used against you in any later civil case. That's why some plea bargain agreements allow the defendant to plead "no contest:" they accept the punishment but don't officially confess to the crime, giving them a better chance in later court actions because they haven't either been proven guilty nor confessed to having done the crime.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    47. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing will happen for political and economical reasons. Break up the country. It's dangerous for the rest of the world.

    48. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Some sort of lottery system that would make political campaigns and party affiliations obsolete, and put an end to the career in public service.

      Thus making lobbyists more powerful, since they are now dealing with amateurs. Amateurs who's lives have been interrupted, and who are thus in desperate need of future financial security. Sounds like a good plan.

      We do it to decide life-and-death issues - it's called the jury system. Works pretty well most of the time, too.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    49. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because you're white

    50. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think they're using the term bail as an overgeneralization to mean "got out of jail". I hear it all the time and it bothers me too.

    51. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Like THAT would ever happen.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    52. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enforce a higher standard of certainty before they are allowed to charge, so dropping charges is a rarity.

      This can be done in any number of ways:

      Prosecutor numbers
      a. by person - only allowed to certain % of charges before all must be dropped (decrease likelihood of throwing book at them with little intention of prosecuting), - punish prosecutor by decreasing %

      b. by prosecutor - if they drop more than X% of charges they bring, they will be put before disciplinary committee. If they repeat offend, they lose their license to practice law. (this might mean prosecutors might not charge some borderline cases where people are guilty, but the system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty so this supports that)

      c. weak case compensation / punishment - where charges thrown out due to little evidence, etc the defendant is entitled to compensation (bad prosecutors become expensive), or prosecutors punished (unlikely as stated above due to political connections).

    53. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Well Germans do like the rules. :) There are ways of corrupting any system, nothing is full proof. We hope for better not perfect.

    54. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I like (a) for both our civil and our criminal system.

      (b) can be circumvented easily. I charge X with 20 counts of A carry a sentence of X and 1 count of B carrying a sentence of Y. Say X < 1% of Y. So that doesn't fix the problem.

      c) I like as well a lot regardless of this other issue.

    55. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The right against self incrimination is a protection against torture and coercion. It works against justice and due process because those are seen as greater evils.

    56. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The problem is building a strong case is part of what the system wants to avoid doing. They want to make it expensive for the guilty to find out if the eventual evidence is going to be strong. So what is the ratio of X to Y? Unless that ratio is large it may always pays for a defendant to take their chances until at least late in the process.

    57. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      There is a pretty strong correlation between pleas and guilt. Not perfect but not worthless either. Increasing that correlation is the goal.

    58. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      It doesn't happen often but Claude Stuart, Queens assistant district attorney just got moderately punished for it.

    59. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      There is a pretty strong correlation between pleas and guilt. Not perfect but not worthless either. Increasing that correlation is the goal.

      There is absolutely no way of determining that under a system where pleading out offers less of a downside than going to trial. And that is not only the case in the US justice system, the benefits usually swing so hard towards the "you'd be better off with a plea" side of the scale that you'd have to be batshit insane to go to trial. The monetary, time, future employment issues and reputation costs provide more than sufficient downside, but even the benefit of knowing what you face as opposed to what you apparently don't is highly compelling (Ex post facto laws can change the evaluation down the line, but of course it's far too late then),

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    60. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      All of this assumes very deep pockets in terms of available time and funds. In other words, this generally is not even remotely a practical option.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    61. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      It's not just the chance of long jail terms: benefits of pleading out can include huge financial benefits (trials are extremely expensive), huge time benefits (trials take a long time during which uncertainty and pre-trial restrictions take a very real toll), may pose the difference between not just guilt, but they type of guilt -- felony or misdemeanor, conviction or adjudication withheld, witness activity or fines or restitution instead of part or all of a jail term -- but yes, on top of all that, you know they will throw the book at you if you don't comply with their desire for you to plead out.

      The system is, in terms of serving justice, utterly, completely broken by the plea mechanism.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    62. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why part 2 of that system would be to remove the money from it. No lobbying, plain and simple. You want your voice heard by those in charge? Do like everyone else and write a letter. No dinners, no trips, no "donations". Enforce harsh penalties for attempting to influence.

    63. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely chilling. That judge and those prosecutors must be some kind of sociopaths to be able to pull that off and somehow sleep at night. Times like this that I wish I could believe there's a hell that exists for people like this.

    64. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep in mind actively punish prosecutors for procedural violations won't happen for political reasons.

      Then change the politicians until it does happen.

    65. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      If the crime you're charged with carries a maximum month sentence, you should be out on bail after the month automatically.

      If you're still in jail after a month waiting for trial on a charge that only carries a 30 day sentence, you've got a good argument for a Sixth Amendment civil rights case IMO.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    66. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      For a justice system to function guilty people need to have reason to confess their guilt and engage in a process of reconciliation with the community.

      This would need to apply to law enforcement and the prosecution as well. Not going to happen here.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    67. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      An easy fix to that is to discard plea deals from the evaluation. How many *court cases* you've won, not how many pleas have you forced. It still doesn't fix all of the problems inherent in the current system, though.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    68. Re: He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. You aren't under oath when you enter a plea - only when you're on the witness stand, which if you're doing as a defendant, you're a fool.

    69. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Prosecutors try cases before juries. If they lose public support they become ineffectual.

      Law enforcement directly gets budget from the community. The absolutely need public support and when it is missing they change behavior quickly.

    70. Re: He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      "Before the court accepts a plea of guilty or nolo contendere, the defendant may be placed under oath, and the court must address the defendant personally in open court...."

    71. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      That's not good enough. That's the way the system works now, and what we have now provably doesn't do enough to curb the abuses often seen in either group. Both groups need to be personally accountable for their actions, beyond the lip service to accountability that they already have, but for all practical purposes doesn't exist.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    72. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      You are changing the criteria from
      a) Accountable to the community
      to
      b) Accountable in a way that satisfies you

      I get that you aren't satisfied. But your problem is you disagree with the voting community not that they aren't accountable to it.

    73. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      We've had various tests. For example when DNA testing became available old cases were tested. Somewhere between 1-8% (depending on how you count) of those who had pled guilty were proven not to have committed the crime based on the DNA evidence. So even if we take the worst case number of 8% that's a very strong correlation.

    74. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did Nyder really turn his life around? http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=6197975&cid=48472415

    75. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure whether Nyder is quite a subtle troll, or else just a complete arse biscuit.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    76. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      But your problem is you disagree with the voting community not that they aren't accountable to it.

      It's not a difference of opinion with the voting community. It's that that prosecutors and law enforcement officers are generally not elected positions, and thus any "accountability" to the public is arm's length at best. The district attorney himself may be elected, but his staff certainly is not. As I said before, what we have now is what you're already suggesting, and it *doesn't work*. Cops can cost their departments hundreds of thousands of dollars in civil judgments, and they continue working as they did before even in the presence of overwhelming public support to have them removed. Prosecutors run roughshod over the rights of people, and it takes a huge media interest and the efforts of wealthy people to get merely the most egregious examples dealt with. The Duke lacrosse case showed that quite clearly. You get exactly as much justice as you can afford, and no more in these situations. Often the public is not even aware of what's going on, so is it okay for individuals to be financially ruined or carry around an undeserved criminal record just because the voters didn't make a big stink about it?

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    77. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      maybe it's time to consider alternatives to majority rule

      "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Churchill).

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    78. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." -- Same

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    79. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      nothing is full proof

      Try rubbing alcohol.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    80. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, now I seriously believe that you're just trolling. In any case, your points of views are not valid in Europe and I'm very happy not to live in the 'justice' system you portray.

    81. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      A year later they pulled the father including his car from a river, which didn't quite mesh with being brutally murdered and fed to his pigs

      Maybe he got better?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    82. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      As regards reputation and future employability, there's no real difference between pleading guilty to a lesser crime and being found guilty of a more serious crime after a trial. So other things being equal you might as well go to trial.

      A criminal record is a criminal record, even if it's only a few months for shoplifting or something..

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    83. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      An AC is accusing a long term poster or trolling. That's rich.

    84. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I think you meant paint thinner. Rubbing alcohol is 0 proof. :)

    85. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      and thus any "accountability" to the public is arm's length at best

      Hold on. There are two types of issues:

      a) Is the systematic biases present acceptable to the public. I.E, is the policy in a statistical sense working?
      b) Are the individual biased being handled. I.E. are the policy failures at an individual level acceptable?

      I was talking about (a) you are now shifting towards a discussion of (b). In terms of (b) the answer seems to be yes. Most times when cases are considered by the broader public we don't see demands for systematic changes "nothing like this should ever happen".

      Cops can cost their departments hundreds of thousands of dollars in civil judgments, and they continue working as they did before even in the presence of overwhelming public support to have them removed.

      How does that happen? With overwhelming public support the city council (or whatever appropriate agency) can just fire them. You would be talking about overwhelming public support and the elected officials not responding to such support? Where does that happen? Can you present some examples of this?

      Prosecutors run roughshod over the rights of people, and it takes a huge media interest and the efforts of wealthy people to get merely the most egregious examples dealt with.

      The broad public does not seem to care much about prosecutorial abuses. Judges who act harshly against it are frequently quite criticized. Similarly politicians. Communities if they believed there was such a problem would be doing things like enhancing the power and oversight of grand juries, altering civilian review boards... Mechanisms for constraining prosecutors exist but they are generally unpopular.

      Often the public is not even aware of what's going on, so is it okay for individuals to be financially ruined or carry around an undeserved criminal record just because the voters didn't make a big stink about it?

      That's a different issue. I'm saying the policy is what the public supports. You are now switching to the public supports the abuses but the are bad in some objective sense. I agree with you. We do need a system much less prone to abuse, though I don't agree with most of the suggestions being offered to accomplish that. But let's not conflate the objective issue of what is objectively right and wrong with the other issue of the voters mostly supporting the level of abuses we have.

    86. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand your scenario, but if it's about a suspect turning a "crown witness", we don't have that either. I.e. there are no "prisoners dilemma" type situations. If you want to bear witness against your co-conspirators that probably won't hurt you when it comes to the sentencing phase, quite the contrary, but it's for the court to decide. The prosecutor can't promise to not prosecute. That promise has no legal standing. If you're stupid enough to implicate yourself on the stand, then there are no "get out of jail" cards.

      Now, of course, in cases like the Aaron Schwarz case, that wasn't the issue, there were no other potential defendants, and AFAIK those situations are more uncommon in the US. Most cases involve a single defendant plea bargaining. How to address that in a situation with multiple defendants in the US if you want to keep the possibility of "crown witness" is a good question that I haven't put much thought into. If you have an adversarial process couldn't you just address that through the defence and courts i.e. "Your honor, it is quite clear to the defence that this witness is in fact guilty of taking part in this crime and he should be charged accordingly", i.e. make the promise the prosecutor makes to not prosecute null and void?Shouldn't that also make such testimony more reliable, as the potential pay off is no longer a "get out of jail free" card, but the possibility of a more modest reduction of your sentence?

      You could argue that that would lead to fewer convictions, but then again, so will any change that takes power away from the prosecution and transfers it to the defendant. If we're more interested in justice than efficiency, then of course we'll successfully prosecute less people, I don't see a way around that.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    87. Re: He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, we paid their salaries.

    88. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yes. But they throw you in jail for 2 years, waiting for the trial on a crime with a 6 month max sentence, usually fine only. Fighting for your rights costs more than giving them up. The rational actor will give up his rights. It takes the irrational person to fight.

    89. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      For a justice system to function guilty people need to have reason to confess their guilt and engage in a process of reconciliation with the community.

      That was the basis of the torture of the inquisition. The current plea bargains allowed fit every definition of torture I've ever seen. You are supporting a policy of torture.

    90. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      ...pleading innocence also doesn't prove said innocence...

      No defendant ever pleads innocence,

      His words work great. Suspects do "plead" innocent. But court doesn't allow pleadings, only pleas. There's a difference. You can plead with the prosecutor in interrogation. But you give a plea to the judge.

    91. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And that's only the number that could be proven innocent, the number who were actually not guilty is much higher.

    92. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The torture system was designed to get guilty people to confess by subjecting them to a strong stimulus which caused them to act against their long term best interests in favor of their short term best interests. The plea bargain system is a threat designed to elicit a confession. An analog involving violence would be something like "confess or I'll kill you", not torture. That's not the same thing as torture.

      Torture while bad (and possibly ineffectual) doesn't undermine the fundamental purpose of a criminal justice system. A system designed to encourage suspects to lie until the very end, may not involving doing any bad acts but it does undermine the fundamental purpose of a criminal justice system.

      The plea bargain system tries to avoid both the bad acts and the fundamental undermining.

    93. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No the 92% were certainly guilty. Their DNA confirmed the original finding of guilt. The 8% is the upper bound.

    94. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The torture system was designed to get guilty people to confess [...]

      The plea bargain system is a threat designed to elicit a confession.

      Yes, that's what I said. Torture included threats of future harm, in addition to immediate pain. That the immediate pain isn't there doesn't make the threats of future harm any less. After that, it's all a discussion of whether the future harm threatened justifies the emotional connotations of "torture".

      The plea bargain system tries to avoid both the bad acts and the fundamental undermining.

      Through the use of torture to elicit confessions.

      Make it simple. Post a single defintion of "torture" that I can't reasonably claim is met by the plea bargain system. Don't forget, the plea bargains are threats of future harm if you don't confess. I've not seen a mainstream definition of torture that didn't include that. True they don't anally rape you before demanding your confession under threats of repeated anal rape. But they do threaten anal rape if you don't confess.

      An analog involving violence would be something like "confess or I'll kill you", not torture. That's not the same thing as torture.

      But that is torture. Go read the definitions and post one that proves me wrong. Should be easy. Right?

    95. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So the question wasn't guilt, but DNA match. That's not necessarily the same thing.

    96. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I doubt it. The specific offense I was being charged for didn't even carry a jail sentence, just a fine and some kind of probation. That's why I didn't get a public defender (apparently that's reserved ONLY for charges that carry a potential jail sentence, even if it's a short one.)

      I wasn't even arrested or anything, I was just given a ticket not much different than a traffic ticket, asked for my index finger print, and was told to sign the form and show up for court at x date.

    97. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      At arraignment they intentionally put the more serious cases on the docket before yours because they wanted to intimidate you.

      That wouldn't make any sense because I saw people getting whacked with some high and some low offenses. This also wasn't the arraignment when I saw people getting the book thrown at them, this was after they had already plead guilty before. (I met with the prosecutor on two separate occasions, both of which were after the initial arraignment.)

      What's actually funny was during the arraignment I plead not guilty, but the idiot court recorder entered a guilty plea for me. After they told me to go sit back down, I looked at the form and it told me to go to a sentencing hearing. I cut in line and walked back up to the recorder asking WTF why don't I get to argue my case before sentencing? She then tells me that you have to go to sentencing after you plea guilty. I had to tell her that I plead not guilty which apparently caused some kind of ruckus behind the scenes. Anyways they gave me a different form that set a date for a pre-trial conference, which was where I was to first speak with the prosecutor.

      It was before the pre-trial conference where I was hearing some people receive their sentencing, which I guess the pre-trial conference and the sentencing are all done in the same court room.

    98. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No. I'm oversimplifying a bit but so you get this assume that:

      92% matched the DNA proving guilt (or at least heavy contact that confirmed the theory)
      1% the DNA was someone else's who was a more likely suspect and thus proved innocence.

    99. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Correct. That's a problem with middle class defendants. They often have a weird payoff matrix where any felony is treated as super serious. So to get them to plea once you want a felony plea they need to be looking at something like 15+ years if convicted. Which creates the overcharging which...

    100. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Ok
      dictionary: the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

      USA law: “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering

      etc...

    101. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah? Whoopdy freakin do. He ain't the first bloke to overcome adversity.

    102. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Tar and feathers come to mind...

    103. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      If they make you wait in jail longer than the average sentence would last, they should have to let you go free and clear.

      I think it was two years ago in Atlanta that a judge ruled exactly that and let a lot of people awaiting trial for minor offenses go.

    104. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      We keep trying, and even changing our selection after the first goat is revealed, but we keep getting goats. I'm not sure any of the doors have a car behind them.

    105. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      I'm not really sure what you're saying, but the 95% reelection rate is still the norm. That just indicates nobody really wants to change anything.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    106. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's like choosing a door on "Let's make a Deal".

    107. Re:He still plead guilty to something ... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      What people are doing now is more like choosing the same door over and over when they already know it's a gag.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  3. Junk Article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    *sigh* as always, we have this and that said, no citation. Anyone got a LINK to what he actually DID (excuse me, what he was accused of specifically)

    Also, this was TEXAS. You know, file a troll lawsuit/get out of murder charges for being a rich drunk kid/get skewered for being a racist that's not white by the courts . . . who's surprised?

    1. Re:Junk Article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also, this was TEXAS. You know, file a troll lawsuit/get out of murder charges for being a rich drunk kid/get skewered for being a racist that's not white by the courts . . . who's surprised?

      Explain to me how your misplaced bigotry against a particular state has any relevance to federal charges. Because that's what this was. A federal case brought by the US Attorney's office. Your clue was the multiple references to the DoJ and US Attorney in the summary and article.

    2. Re:Junk Article? by butalearner · · Score: 4, Informative

      *sigh* as always, we have this and that said, no citation. Anyone got a LINK to what he actually DID (excuse me, what he was accused of specifically)

      Not sure of full details, but I got this much:

      18 counts of cyberstalking: filling out a public contact form on the "victim's" website with junk text.
      15 counts violating Computer Fraud and Abuse Act: scanning sites for vulnerabilities using commercial available scanning tools.
      Not sure what the other 11 counts were.
      The only charge he pled guilty to was a violation of the CFAA, downgraded to a misdemeanor, for trying to log in to the Hidalgo County website server 14,000 times, causing a slowdown that prompted them to hire specialists.

    3. Re:Junk Article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In his final plea agreement, the only remaining one of those 44 felonies to which Salinas actually pleaded guilty—downgraded to a misdemeanor—was a computer fraud and abuse charge for repeatedly scanning the Hidalgo County website for vulnerabilities. Prosecutors argued the scans slowed down the site’s performance.

    4. Re:Junk Article? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remind me to stay the hell out of that area. I'm a serial criminal according to that fucked up legal system.

      A career criminal and a member (actually one of the kingpins) of an international professional crime syndicate.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Junk Article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remind me to stay the hell out of that area. I'm a serial criminal according to that fucked up legal system.

      And, given the context, I'm sure you understood that "that area" is "the United States of America". Because these were federal charges brought by the US Attorney / DoJ, not by Texas.

      Not that I disagree with wanting to get the hell out of this country, of course. I'll miss living in the country with the world's most technologically superior nuclear weapons arsenal and our heritage of RKBA, but I have already assembled a shortlist of emigration candidate countries. I'll breathe a sigh of relief when I have alternative citizenship.

  4. Duh ... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Prosecutors are no longer interested in evenly applying the law in a sane manner.

    They're interested in high profile retribution which is intended to send a message which says "don't mess with us, or we'll do this to you".

    And, somehow, at the CEO level when there's massive fraud and malfeasance ... absolutely nothing happens.

    Because the justice system is dependent on how much money is in your bank account, and who your friends are.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Duh ... by Stargoat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ten years ago I would have said you were a crank. Five years ago I would have ignored the comment. But this country has gone seriously down hill over the past decade and a half.

      Corporate fraud and malfeasance is a major issue. Even things corporations do legally should be of paramount concern to the people of the US. There needs to be a disassembly (not continued over-regulation, which are two completely separate things) of the finance structure in the US, starting with the repeal of GLBA and the reinstatement of Glass-Steigel.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    2. Re:Duh ... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      They're interested in high profile retribution which is intended to send a message which says "don't mess with us, or we'll do this to you".

      Because this lets the prosecutor appear "tough on crime" which plays well when he tries to advance his political career.

      And, somehow, at the CEO level when there's massive fraud and malfeasance ... absolutely nothing happens.

      Because that CEO is also a major campaign contributor.

      It's sad how much of this goes back to politics.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    3. Re:Duh ... by QilessQi · · Score: 1

      It would be more accurate to say: it all goes back to money.

      Politics is the means by which certain individuals get elected, and how others get appointed by the elected officials. Which is legislation favorable to a particular industry gets passed, and how lucrative government defense contracts get awarded. In exchange for which, the political figure in question can be assured of a nice corporate consulting or board position upon retirement. At which point they become a campaign contributor, and the whole cycle starts all over again.

    4. Re:Duh ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ten years ago I would have said you were a crank. Five years ago I would have ignored the comment. But this country has gone seriously down hill over the past decade and a half.

      Are you sure that the world has changed so much, and it is not just that you understand it better?

      Might be time to grow that lawn....

    5. Re:Duh ... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ten years ago I would have said you were a crank.

      In all honesty, ten years ago I would have said I'm a crank.

      But, the reality is, over the last bunch of years, we're seeing much more "victory at any costs" coming both from the legal system and the politicians. Facts and the law are secondary to agendas and posturing.

      We're seeing more and more examples of "the law and your rights are too damned inconvenient so we're going to ignore them".

      We see Federal law enforcement lying about their secret spying capacity and going to great lengths to conceal it.

      We see those same entities writing a hand book for how to commit perjury to about where they got their evidence in order to get a conviction and gloss over some of the shadier bits about how they operate. Effectively it's a "how to frame someone we believe is guilty but didn't legally obtain the evidence".

      The companies who caused the economic meltdown? Bailed out, and forgiven so we don't introduce any more instability, totally ignoring what amounted to billions of dollars worth of Ponzi schemes.

      The legal system has been co-opted to serve the interests of commercial entities, who more or less write laws which governments pass for them.

      And, increasingly, we see the governments of Western nations getting together to do this shit to all of us.

      So, yeah ... not so long ago I would have been a crank. But, not so long ago, none of this stuff was real, it was the stuff of fiction.

      I keep saying, what was fantastical fiction 10-15 years ago is commonplace. And if it keeps going that way, we're pretty much fucked.

      In my mind, we've pretty much reached the point where the surveillance state being in partnership with (and in some cases working for) an oligarchy or corporations who don't give a shit about anything but their own profits, and who have the means to change and control anything which they find inconvenient.

      It doesn't seem like there's enough tinfoil on the entire fucking planet to NOT end up sounding like a paranoid loon when you look at what's actually happening.

      I'd like to go back to a nice normal "slightly crazy" like before. But the world doesn't seem like it's trending in that direction.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:Duh ... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      There must be a revolving door between federal prosecutors and banks. If the prosecutors leave the banks alone or just fine them a couple of months profits, they will have a lucrative job waiting for them when they leave the government.

      There's more truth to that than you might realize:

      The people who have been setting government economic policy for the last two decades are usually drawn from the financial industry which almost destroyed the global economy.

      So, the lying, cheating bastards who got us into this mess, are the lying, cheating bastards in charge of deciding what to do next.

      At which point you more or less assume the whole system has been corrupted to be in the hands of the financial industry. Leaving them free to come up with more policies which favor them, and remove even more regulations which were intended to stop this stuff in the first place.

      Which some of us will argue has been the intent for the last half century.

      Because some people believe what is good for the crony-capitalists is good for society. Or, at least they believe if they can keep telling us that lie sooner or later it will be too damned late to do anything about it.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Duh ... by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Prosecutors are no longer interested in evenly applying the law in a sane manner.

      They're interested in high profile retribution which is intended to send a message which says "don't mess with us, or we'll do this to you".

      And, somehow, at the CEO level when there's massive fraud and malfeasance ... absolutely nothing happens.

      Because the justice system is dependent on how much money is in your bank account, and who your friends are.

      Or if you're a member of "team us" with the prosecutor you don't have to worry, either. Look at cases where police officers actually are indicted for a crime and see how the prosecution is handled. A couple of names to google: "Jon Burge", "Johannes Meserle", "David Bisard". Note the charges - absolutely the minimum. Take a look at what happens when police officers falsify reports and such, too. It's crazy.

      The justice system is mainly made to screw over poor people. The middle class are simply bankrupted by a prosecution, and the rich and those in government aren't touched.

    8. Re:Duh ... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      Pretty much.

      Just remember, if the government has the power to do anything you want, it also has the power to do anything that guy over there wants.

      His best interests aren't necessarily your best interests. And he may have more money to buy legislation than you do.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    9. Re:Duh ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      reinstatement of Glass-Steigel

      You really don't want the reinstatement of Glass-Steigel. What you want is an updated version. The nice thing is Elizabeth Warren wrote it 21st Century Glass–Steagall Act (S.1282).

    10. Re:Duh ... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Ten years ago I would have said you were a crank.

      In all honesty, ten years ago I would have said I'm a crank.

      I expressed these concerns back around mid 2000. IMNSHO, that's about when everything took a major wrong turn, with the neo-cons coming to the forefront.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    11. Re:Duh ... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Ten years ago I would have said you were a crank. Five years ago I would have ignored the comment. But this country has gone seriously down hill over the past decade and a half.

      Corporate fraud and malfeasance is a major issue. Even things corporations do legally should be of paramount concern to the people of the US. There needs to be a disassembly (not continued over-regulation, which are two completely separate things) of the finance structure in the US, starting with the repeal of GLBA and the reinstatement of Glass-Steigel.

      10 years ago, I knew the system was fucked. But it's nice that the general consensus is coming around to agree with me, more or less. It reminds me of when everyone else finally realized what a terrible president Gorge W. Bush was, or that the NSA really is spying on them.

      The problems go deeper than you probably know; deep enough that you would again consider me a crank if I told you. The fraud and regulatory capture are only the beginning. Where it gets really interesting is where the corporate and financial bigwigs get together with the intelligence agencies and start spying and manipulating. They are driving world events with deception and propaganda, and doing things most would consider to be impossible.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    12. Re:Duh ... by russotto · · Score: 1

      Ten years ago I would have said you were a crank. Five years ago I would have ignored the comment. But this country has gone seriously down hill over the past decade and a half.

      Nope, this hasn't changed. Read up on the Neidorf E911 case.

    13. Re:Duh ... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Funny? No. Insightful. 100%.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    14. Re:Duh ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      IMNSHO, that's about when everything took a major wrong turn, with the neo-cons coming to the forefront.

      I think you can pin it down even more accurately to on or about September 12, 2001, when the American public collectively lost their critical thinking skills and bought into practically everything the government told them.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    15. Re:Duh ... by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      The US's problems really started with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall.

      Having seen your only genuine enemy vanish almost overnight, the Military-Industrial Complex had to go about finding a new one.
      9/11 gave the perfect excuse to invent the War on Terror, which is the permanent war the MIC always dreamed of, as you can literally never win it.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    16. Re:Duh ... by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Actually, on the basis of the production of an unwinnable war, we could go back to 1971 when Nixon declared the "war on drugs". This has been the justification of any number of bad policy (seizure laws and practices in particular), although generally more in the context of law enforcement than the military itself.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    17. Re:Duh ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's beyond this. They are no longer Americans. They are no longer civilized human beings. They are no longer part of human civilization. They have chosen to separate themselves from humanity. They are indistinguishable from the worst "humans" of history and deserve to be treated as such.

  5. Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's no secret that prosecutors usually throw every charge they can at an alleged criminal

    They wouldn't be doing it, if they — the prosecuting agency(ies) — faced non-trivial monetary loss for every charge, that did not hold up in court...

    To keep it harder for entities — both private and governmental — with large legal budgets to initiate frivolous proceedings, the loser must pay winner. There is no such thing currently and even winning a suit can leave one with thousands of dollars in debt. It must become automatic and not require a separate lawsuit by the winner to recoup his legal costs.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, now what do you do when one of those entities with large legal budgets initiates frivolous proceedings and wins precisely because they have said budget and the other guy doesn't?

    2. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by kaladorn · · Score: 1

      You can lose even with a case with merit. The law is not oriented so as to preclude you from engaging in a suit entirely out of the fear you might, from a technicality, be found to have your suit not substantiated.

      Yes, the law may not award costs and punitive damages for prosecutorial aggressiveness, but it serves other ends. Perhaps that issue is meant to be dealt with by other means?

      In the US, don't you elect prosecutors, judges, and sherrifs, and DAs, and so on? These people, one presumes, are doing as the electorate wish.... or they shouldn't be getting elected.

      You also elect the politicians that pass these laws under which these people get charge in the first place. Don't vote in the major party candidates if this is the result.

      Only your exercise of the franchise and extensive public outcry can change this sort of conduct.

      --
      -- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
    3. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      One caveat: The legal fees should be capped, not set to all legal fees. Otherwise, small guy sues big company. Small guy stretches his budget and pays $10,000 in legal fees. Big company's legal budget is $10 million. Big company wins and now small guy is on the hook for $10 million. With this situation, the possibility of losing and needing to pay Big Company's legal fees will become an incentive not to sue big companies.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 1

      what do you do when one of those entities with large legal budgets initiates frivolous proceedings and wins precisely because they have said budget and the other guy doesn't?

      They can already do that, so we would not be any worse off. My proposal would not seriously help those with large legal budgets — but it will help those with small ones.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    5. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 1
      You can lose even with a case with merit.

      You might. And my system will help further discourage you from making a nuisance of yourself.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    6. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except we would be worse off, because now on top of everything else the little guy has to pay the legal bills of the big company that screwed him over.

    7. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Criminal case, not civil cases from what I can gather.

    8. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 1

      The legal fees should be capped

      Maybe.

      Small guy stretches his budget and pays $10,000 in legal fees. Big company's legal budget is $10 million.

      If the target of the lawsuit (your hypothetical company) was forced to spend $10 million to defend itself, then, yes, $10 million it will be. Unless, maybe, the judge will tell them, they didn't need to feed 10 lawyers black caviar. But it is entirely possible that the parties' legal costs will be in different orders of magnitude — that may still be perfectly legitimate.

      Now, granted, you may not be automatically entitled to all of your legal costs upon winning. But you certainly ought to be entitled to something. Something substantial. Like, say, $10K for each felony allegation, that did not hold — and $5K for each such alleged misdemeanor.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    9. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, to reform common law, instead of replacing it with civil law, you're making prosecutions capitalistic? Great... don't ever want to live in your imaginary world...

    10. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 1

      Except we would be worse off

      No. The change I propose would discourage big (guys or companies) from going after small (guys or companies) frivolously — when they don't care whether they win or lose, they just want the small to fold for fear of legal costs regardless of outcome. With my system, if you are sure of being right, you don't need to fear ruin upon winning.

      because now on top of everything else the little guy has to pay the legal bills of the big company that screwed him over.

      What "screwed over"? The judge/jury just ruled, that the "big company" was right. The loser ought to pay — whether he is large or little. The court has ruled and found him in the wrong. Pay up.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    11. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 0

      So, to reform common law, instead of replacing it with civil law, you're making prosecutions capitalistic?

      Gibberish.

      Great... don't ever want to live in your imaginary world...

      Please, do stay in your own.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    12. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

      One caveat: The legal fees should be capped, not set to all legal fees. Otherwise, small guy sues big company. Small guy stretches his budget and pays $10,000 in legal fees. Big company's legal budget is $10 million. Big company wins and now small guy is on the hook for $10 million. With this situation, the possibility of losing and needing to pay Big Company's legal fees will become an incentive not to sue big companies.

      German rules: Small guy asks for X dollars. Big company offers Y dollars (Y may be zero). Judge notes that they argue about X - Y dollars. Judge takes out a table which says what the court and what each side's lawyers can charge for a case over that amount. (If X - Y is very small or zero, the judge will refuse to hear it).

      When the case is finished, judge decides that Big company must pay Z dollars, Z between Y and X. Then cost is apportioned to Small Guy and Big Company. Portion of Big Company is (Z - Y) / (X - Y), portion of small guy is the rest.

      If Big Company decides to rack up costs beyond what the judge told them, that's their problem. Since the judge knows how much the court will get paid to hear the case, he will stop them if they make the case too complicated and lengthy. On the other hand, if the little guy asks for gazillions of dollars, the lawyer cost will be and he will most likely eat them. Say you ask for $100 million, the big company offers $10,000 and the judge decides $20,000, then the cost is huge, and you pay almost all of it.

    13. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      They wouldn't be doing it, if they — the prosecuting agency(ies) — faced non-trivial monetary loss for every charge, that did not hold up in court...

      How would that make a difference? They're the government. They *are* all the money, right?

      And if they don't have the money now, can't they can just raise taxes during the next budget cycle to cover those costs?

    14. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's no secret that prosecutors usually throw every charge they can at an alleged criminal

      They wouldn't be doing it, if they — the prosecuting agency(ies) — faced non-trivial monetary loss for every charge, that did not hold up in court...

      Lemme see if I understand this correctly... you propose that, if in prosecuting someone, a jury decides that the evidence produced is not conclusive beyond the shadow of a doubt, the government must pay the defendent's lawyers? And these lawyers, on a federal level, 90% (actual number of defendents who could qualify) could be public defenders? Therefore, you would have the government pay... itself. Great, you've invented... more paperwork. Just what the government needs.

    15. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by suutar · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that the judge and jury got the right answer and weren't bamboozled by an expensive and slick advertising^Wlegal team. Which of course is the hoped-for outcome... but not one that many folks have a lot of faith in nowadays.

    16. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gibberish? I introduce you to... stuff from grade school.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversarial_system

      The plea bargin literally does not exist as a concept in many countries of the world.

    17. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by mi · · Score: 1

      How would that make a difference? They're the government. They *are* all the money, right?

      The government does have unlimited pockets, but the budgets of individual prosecuting agencies is limited...

      And if they don't have the money now, can't they can just raise taxes during the next budget cycle to cover those costs?

      It would still force prosecutors to be more restrained. If, for example, we paid $10K for each alleged felony and $5K for each misdemeanor, the guy in TFA would've been due $440K. Well, maybe, $430 if one of the felonies was downgraded to misdemeanor. Whether the agency has money or not, making the accused rich like that is embarrassing and prosecutors would be more careful. And, maybe, some of the funds may even come from the prosecutor's own bonus...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    18. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To further elaborate, plea bargaining is forbidden many places because of exactly the problem we are debating here. Rather than making it illegal, you're proposing that money exchange hands to provide an economic incentive to be "more fair".

      What an easy way to obtain money from the government, too... a defense lawyer could buy off a local prosecutor, who then charges some innocent fool with everything in the book, who then is reimbursed for their troubles, and this money then goes to the lawyer who makes out like a bandit. I'm sure you've got some fix for that....

    19. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I think a potential solution is to have the court mediate costs.

      There is a lawsuit. The court evaluates the size of the claims, and determines what a reasonable total legal expenditure is for a case of that size. Obviously a billion dollar patent lawsuit will involve more legal fees than a $100 bent fender dispute. The court then divides that amount in two and allocates half for each party.

      The two parties then can select lawyers who bill their services to the court. It would be illegal for any lawyer to collect a fee directly from a client to support a trial. The goal would be to avoid making finances a factor in the outcome of a trial.

      After the conclusion of the case the court would pay the reward to the winner immediately out of the state treasury. The loser would then become indebted to the state for the amount of the judgment plus costs. Apportionment of costs might not be 100% to either side.

      There would be no games with collections on judgments - the IRS can go after the loser just as they do after tax evaders. If the lower doesn't have any money, the winner still gets their settlement. That combined with the inevitable changes in the laws would get rid of a lot of legal abuses. If losses by patent holding companies with no assets cost the state and not just innovators, then you'll see patent reform in no time.

      The biggest benefit is getting rid of the whole pay to win system we have today.

    20. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2

      It's no secret that prosecutors usually throw every charge they can at an alleged criminal

      They wouldn't be doing it, if they — the prosecuting agency(ies) — faced non-trivial monetary loss for every charge, that did not hold up in court...

      To keep it harder for entities — both private and governmental — with large legal budgets to initiate frivolous proceedings, the loser must pay winner. There is no such thing currently and even winning a suit can leave one with thousands of dollars in debt. It must become automatic and not require a separate lawsuit by the winner to recoup his legal costs.

      My best friend is a lawyer (we both live in the USA - don't know where you live off hand and I'm too lazy to check your profile) and we've talked about this very issue, but what you propose is DOA in the USA for a variety of reasons. Lawyers absolutely hate this idea. The standard lawyer response is "But with that kind of risk, people with legitimate grievances will simply not sue rather than risk losing". Of course fewer law suits is not good for lawyers. Most legislators at the state and national level are attorneys. This is simply never going to happen unless maybe non-lawyers gain control of state and national government on a massive scale.

      One of the problems with the current system is that the really big companies and rich people can simply throw lawyers at a case to try to win, cost be damned. Disney, for example, is known for rarely losing law suits against them, even when death has occurred. Can you imagine someone losing a wrongful death case against Disney and having to pay $100,000 or more in Disney's legal fees? I have a friend who got divorced in another state when his (now ex) wife basically nutted out and decided to divorce him. She quit her job so she could plead poverty in the divorce case, hired one of her city's most expensive divorce attorneys to represent her, and the attorney took the case knowing full well that the wife had no money at all - none - with which to pay the legal bill. My friend admitted to hiring a cheap attorney to represent him and his attorney did a poor job. The court bought the "poor little girl" argument even though her lack of money was self-inflicted and ordered my friend to pay 100% of her legal bills. Cost him over $30,000 to pay for his ex-wife's attorney fees in addition to the very generous terms she got in the divorce. Keep in mind that this was a simple divorce between average people and not some millionaire/billionaire trying to get out of a pre-nup.

      Finally, the US legal system does actually allow for legal fees to be imposed on losing parties in cases where the lawsuit was brought by the losing party and they knew that they had no grounds for it and did it just to stick it to the other party and hope for a lucky verdict in court. But I can tell you that such cases are very rare indeed and even when courts rule that someone was subjected to an unjustified lawsuit that should never have been made in the first place, they almost never award legal fees to the victor simply because doing so sets a bad precedent that it might happen more and more often and having it happen more often might lower the amount of lawsuits, which impacts attorney money and might even lead to a need for fewer courts and fewer judges for those fewer courts.

    21. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Small guy can't pay $10m and goes bankrupt. That seems fair. He has to gamble.

    22. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loser must pay winner is a grand idea. It's just not an idea I'd like to see in my lifetime.

      The winner may have won for many reasons, one of those reasons is financial reserve. Imagine that I can afford to simply outspend you in excessive appeals, continuances, and padding of the evidence list. Your job becomes one of vaulting all the shit I spew forth. Eventually, you can't afford the lawyers to comb through the mountain of stuff I spew forth. Then, you lose. And, as an added parting shot, you get to pay for my excessive litigation tactics.

      That's why I don't immediately support "loser pays"; because, there's a lot of organizations that are willing to bankrupt their opponents when they know that any disruption to their ability to stand in court would mean their entire "legal tab" would be free (or at least a write off in accounting terms).

    23. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by dywolf · · Score: 1

      doesnt solve the problem, just shifts the side where teh abuse sits.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    24. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      To further elaborate, plea bargaining is forbidden many places because of exactly the problem we are debating here. Rather than making it illegal, you're proposing that money exchange hands to provide an economic incentive to be "more fair".

      There is a large libertarian element on slashdot, who think that "the market" solves all problems optimally.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    25. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      So big company can do whatever it wants knowing if small guy wants to fight back it risks minor monetary damage while the small guy risks bankruptcy? This sounds like a license for big companies to take a "ask for forgiveness, not permission" and do whatever they want no matter whether they should be asking/paying some small guy for permission. Say, if a small guy owns patent rights on a technology the big companies want to use.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    26. Re:Need automatic "loser pays" in jurisprudence by sjames · · Score: 1

      Loser pays is dangerous in civil suits where a small entity sues a large entity. Even the most meritorious case can be lost.

      In criminal cases, the prosecutor's office should be on the hook when the defendant isn't found guilty. Not just for legal fees, but for restitution for time spent incarcerated, loss of employment (if that happens), other consequential damages (eviction, missed payments, etc) and publicity to make it well known the defendant was not guilty.

  6. It did work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prosecutors struck a deal to get him to plead guilty

    So, it did work. No trial, just plead guilty and all the charges will go away.

  7. Having worked with prosecutors by kilodelta · · Score: 2

    I'll be the first to admit that they throw everything they think will stick at a defendant. Read through any criminal proceeding and you'll see that most of the trial is about the prosecution getting a little bit out of control and being rebuked by the judge. It's actually funny.

    1. Re:Having worked with prosecutors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Funny until you're the defendant

    2. Re:Having worked with prosecutors by jopsen · · Score: 1

      It's actually funny.

      It might be funny... It's certainly not justice.

      I don't get why you elect judges and prosecutors mixing politics into the justice system. It makes the whole thing so adversarial.
      When it should be about truth and not convictions...

    3. Re:Having worked with prosecutors by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      We do call it the adversarial system for a reason. It's not only the defendant who is adversarial; it's also the prosecution.

    4. Re:Having worked with prosecutors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Code of conduct and actual written law concerning the process should be there to prevent such practices. Soon, in a court house near you: a kid called Rasputin stole a candy and was offered multiple capital sentences. None of them stuck and he got out after paying a $50 dollar fine.

    5. Re:Having worked with prosecutors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you're a cop that by some miracle was actually charged. Then the DA will put on a show to look like they care about justice but in reality they're just trying not to piss off the rest of the cops that they have to work with.

  8. Wired article is biased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Remember, haxx0rz rule at Wired.

    This is from rt.com (English-language Russian news); it explains where the $10,000 figure came from, and sheds light on what the Wired story claimed was Salinas merely logging in an filling in a couple online forms with garbage text:

    According to Special Agent Nguyen, authorities narrowed in on their target that January after investigators linked an attempt to breach the site of Hidalgo County with a computer within a residence where Salinas was staying. Salinas “made over 14,000 attempts to log into their website server,” Nguyen charged, in turn slowing down the system for administrators and visitors alike and eventually requiring the county to hire tech specialists. In all, the hack is alleged to have cost Hidalgo County $10,620.32, according to the Sept. 2013 complaint.

    Nguyen said the IP address of the computer used by Salinas was responsible for those thousands of attempted intrusions, and a search warrant executed a week after the hack occurred ended with the FBI seizing his laptops and recovering forensic evidence that linked him to the attacks.

    Salinas was interviewed by FBI Special Agent Christopher Wallingsford several months later in September 2012 and admitted during that meeting and at a later one that he used a program on his computer to attempt to gain administrative access to the site, but that his efforts were to test the network’s security.

    1. Re:Wired article is biased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wired is still out there? I thought they went the way of Blacklisted 411. Not that they ever had 1% of the real knowledge that came from BL411 but still...

    2. Re:Wired article is biased by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      What kind of computer system does Hidalgo county have that 14,000 login attempts would even register as a blip on the CPU?

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    3. Re:Wired article is biased by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      What kind of computer system does Hidalgo county have that 14,000 login attempts would even register as a blip on the CPU?

      That doesn't really matter, does it? 14,000 login attempts by one user in one or two days is an unreasonably high number. It was an attempt to create mischief. While it is probably possible to design a system so that 14,000 login attempts cause no problem, Hidalgo county had no obligation to do this.

      It's also possible that there were _only_ 14,000 login attempts because the login attempts were done as quickly as the attacked system allowed it, and if Hidalgo's system had been ten times more efficient, there would have been 140,000 login attempts.

    4. Re:Wired article is biased by sjames · · Score: 1

      Most of us call a mere 14,000 hits, even on a tiny VM, another day at the office. It really doesn't cost much to do a whois and send a quick log extract to the relevant abuse contact (if it's even in the top 10 offenders).

  9. It's called Barratry and it's a crime. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/barratry

    Then again, you need the judge and prosecutor to allow you to bring the case, so this is not going to happen unless you're well connected and well heeled.

  10. Attica - Ruby Ridge - Aaron Swartz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember and never forget or it will be YOU!

  11. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sounds like the prosecution using a winning strategy. They got him to plead guilty to what they wanted him for anyways.

    Prosecution apparently knew he could have won in court, so they charged him with a ludicrous number of felonies so that he would be too scared risk taking it before a judge and jury. Which is bullshit, and difficult to call justice. They just, de facto, broke the sixth amendment by intimidating him into declining a fair trial.

    Of course they're going to say he could have gone to court, but no sane person would risk many decades to possibly life in prison when they could get off with a fine.

  12. And most likely even the misdemeanor is garbage by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But would YOU want to have a judge who can't operate his cellphone without an accident judge you on the base of laws written by people who don't have much more of a clue concerning the matter in a case where exactly these things play a key role? Supported by 12 douches whose primary concern is to get out of the whole mess as quickly as possible, no matter how.

    You sure as hell take the deal, knowing that you have NO chance in hell to a fair trial.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  13. They need moles more. by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

    Looks to me they got themselves a mole/stoolie

    --
    Jack of all trades,master of none
  14. Spaghetti prosecution. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Throw a bunch of stuff on the wall and hope something sticks. Prosecutors don't really care what that is as long as it's something and they "win".

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Spaghetti prosecution. by surmak · · Score: 1

      Then perhaps every charge that they bring that they do not a conviction/guilty plea for needs to count against them. If this were the case, the prosecutor record would have shown a single misdemeanor case in the win column, and 44 felonies lost.

  15. Har har har YOU LOSE!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, how does it feel, you pathetic computer nerds? Feel so smug and superior now? Look at you, whenever threatened in the real world (the one that matters) you big v-for-vendetta matrix heroes shit your pants and beg for mercy like the little bitches you are, when you're not ratting out on your butt buddies or offing yourself like jerkoff boy aaron swartz, your big crap hero. Some heroes you are, hunh?

  16. What's the relevance of Aaron Swartz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Swartz had obvious mental issues and his case has no relevance to this one whatsoever. If you can't do the time you don't do the crime.

  17. Duh ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, we have bankers who almost broke the world economy with their criminal behavior who don't get prosecuted and guys like this that potentially get the book thrown at them. There must be a revolving door between federal prosecutors and banks. If the prosecutors leave the banks alone or just fine them a couple of months profits, they will have a lucrative job waiting for them when they leave the government.

  18. And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Occupy. Ferguson. Aaron.

    Anyone else see the pattern of popular outcry over injustices?

      Frederick Douglass once said (from a soapbox) "A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box."

    The soapbox isn't cutting it, too many people choosing to ignore what is in front of them.
    The ballot box has failed to fix things, too much money at the top trying to keep the status quo.
    The jury box has failed, the office of prosecutor has become so perverted that the public no longer trusts them to do the right thing (and with reason)

    We either need to massively change the system, or people will start picking up that last box in greater numbers than already are.

    1. Re: And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pick up the ammo box, I dare you. For every round of ammo you have, the State has 1000. You are outgunned. You won't last a fraction of a second. It's already over. Give up.

  19. Man uses Tor, doesn't get caught... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tor Eklund, a hacker's best friend.

  20. Outlawing plea deals should be a national priority by WaffleMonster · · Score: 2

    When the word plea bargain is spoken all I hear is "forced confession" in keeping with traditions of the worlds leading jailor the United States of North Korea.

    People should simply be charged with whatever the crime they are accused of committing... It just isn't the act of using coercion to force a desired outcome alone it is all the second order effects this practice asserts on the whole system turning everything to shit.

    Maximum sentences are allowed to pierce the stratosphere because nobody notices when insane sentences are merely threatened but not actually handed out.

    Laws are intentionally written in broad terms to be used as a weapon yet again nobody cares because it does not happen.

    And before you know it in all ways that matter we are back to kings jailing the peasant fools they happen to dislike.

  21. The CHANGES are complete garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    BRING BACK THE FUCKING TAGLINE: NEWS FOR NERDS, STUFF THAT MATTERS.

    Also, FUCK BETA.

    Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

    AND FUCK FILTER ERRORS.

  22. Every dog is entitled to one bite. by westlake · · Score: 1

    The consequences which follow from a $10,000 fine and a guilty plea to a federal misdemeanor hacking charge are not trivial.

    His usefulness to Anonymous is at an end --- the collective will be wondering about how much he had to offer in exchange for a plea bargain.

    Pleading down to a misdemeanor is common enough for a first offender. But that is a card you can play only once.

    1. Re:Every dog is entitled to one bite. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anonymous? Har har har. The "collective" of smelly neckbeards are collectively shitting their collective pants while frantically wiping their HDs all the while sobbing at the loss of their collection of tentacle porn and lolicons. All for naught, they will be caught one by one and will know how turds feel when they're stepped upon. They will cry, oh they will cry. They will beg, oh they will beg. They will offer to rat on their fellow losers. They will offer to perform debasing sexual acts in exchange for a small measure of mercy. Not so smug and brave and v-for-vendetta matrix now, aren't you little kids?

  23. Doesn't matter by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

    It counts as a "win" and his percentage goes up.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
  24. No trials by jodido · · Score: 1

    97 percent of the people in federal prisons never had a trial--their cases were settled through plea bargaining. Like this one was, except this guy was lucky enough not to end up behind bars.

  25. Tor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? Am I the only one that chuckled over the lawyer's name for this case?

  26. Reparations for the Innocent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work with a small group called Take Back the Law. One of the proposals we are working on is a ballot initiative that would do just this in specific cases.

    Ballot Question:
    When someone is accused of a serious crime, and then found innocent of the crime (state withdraws a complaint or the defendant is found not guilty of the serious crimes at trial), should the state be required to reimburse the accused innocent citizen for their expenses and losses, and should the innocent persons record be automatically cleared of everything relating to the underlying crime?

    A yes vote will enact the following legislation:

    Any citizen of the Commonwealth that is accused of a major felony crime by way of an incitement or probable cause hearing by the State, and in which the state subsequently withdraws the complaint (or portion thereof) before trial, the case is dismissed by the court prior to trial OR the citizen is found not guilty of the major felony crime at trial shall be entitled to claim all costs and expenses related to or extending from the trial (including lost income) against the general fund of the commonwealth.

    In any case where the District Attorney’s office moves for, and is granted pre-trial conditions that result in the curtailment of the defendants legitimate employment, the state shall make payments to the accused equal to the amounts the accused would have received had their legitimate work not been curtailed. These payments shall begin on the day such an order goes into effect, and shall be assessed against the general fund of the commonwealth.
    In some cases, the effect of a trial may irreparably damage the ability of the innocent defendant to work in a given field once the trial is over. In such cases, the state shall pay for the costs of retraining the innocent defendant for a comparable position in another field. An innocent defendant that is being retrained shall continue to receive the financial payments from the state for the curtailed work while they are retrained and until they are gainfully employed in a position about equivalent to the one they had before the trial. These payments shall be assessed against the general fund of the Commonwealth.

    Where the accused is a business owner or principal of a business, the business shall be permitted to sue the state to recover any business losses reasonably attributable to the prosecution of the business owner or principal. This section shall serve as a waiver of immunity from such civil suits.
    In any case where prosecutorial misconduct is present, or where the District Attorney’s office had proof of innocence at the time of arraignment, the innocent defendant shall be permitted to sue the District Attorney’s office, the District Attorney and any individual Assistant District Attorney involved in prosecuting or supervising the case for treble damages. This section shall act as a specific waiver of immunity from such civil suits.

    In any case where the District Attorney’s office moves for, and is granted pre-trial conditions at arraignment that result in the accused having to vacate their residence or stop working prior to trial, an evidentiary dangerousness hearing must be held within 30 days to determine if a true and substantial risk (not just a theoretical risk) is actually present. This finding shall be binding on all state agencies, both civilly and criminally.
    1. This hearing shall require the District Attorney’s office to present substantial evidence of risk to the occupants of the residence or those the accused works with.
    2. Hearsay and anonymous reports shall not be admissible in such a hearing.
    3. In cases where the victim and the accused are resident in the same house, the testimony of the victim alone can be the basis to support such an order.
    4. In any case where the victim does not reside in the same house as the accused, the burden of proof required to support such an order shall be far greater.
    5. Accusations alone, or accusations suppor

    1. Re:Reparations for the Innocent by Stargoat · · Score: 0

      MOD PARENT UP

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    2. Re:Reparations for the Innocent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of the State being responsible for reimbursement, make it those involved in the prosecution. You'll see bogus cases drop like a whore's drawers.

    3. Re:Reparations for the Innocent by Rakhar · · Score: 1

      Any citizen of the Commonwealth that is accused of a major felony crime by way of an incitement or probable cause hearing by the State, and in which the state subsequently withdraws the complaint (or portion thereof) before trial, the case is dismissed by the court prior to trial OR the citizen is found not guilty of the major felony crime at trial shall be entitled to claim all costs and expenses related to or extending from the trial (including lost income) against the general fund of the commonwealth.

      So the super rich are cemented as untouchables in law by the simple fact that any government short of federal isn't going near charges against them with a ten foot pole. And even federal would be up in the air depending on charges. I agree, for nearly all cases the above would be an improvement...but at the same time it would permanently close other doors when it comes to leveling the playing field of the legal system.

      Every blanket solution has problems like this, which makes me lean towards case by case solutions. That leads to a "who watches the watchers" kind of argument. I don't think that there can be a real solution without trust, and that trust has been beaten and abused so much that nothing is left. At this point everyone is kind of looking around and thinking, "Yeah, this is screwed up" but has no one to put faith in to fix it. It's a broken system behind a broken system. You have to start at the root of the problem; the people's relation to their government. People need to become more involved and government needs reform. It's a huge system designed specifically to keep sudden change from sweeping through it, which becomes a double edged blade in this case. It's also hard for most people to even grasp the scope of our current government and all of the tangled webs between local, state, and federal.

      If you back up even further the problem expands to encompass our entire society. People don't trust people. People fear people. People blame people. People hate people. You have negative reinforcement from all sides. You have cities divided into something akin to war zones. Police are seen as the bad guys more often than not when they step in. Ditto for government. A lot of people just don't care, or pretend not to. Of those that do care, very few make it to a place suitable to making change and of those even less make the trip unscathed.

      I've lost my point in the downward spiral, so I'll just end it there.

  27. Federal Sentencing Guidelines by davidwr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the charges stuck, the man was facing multiple lifetimes worth of imprisonment.

    Bull****. Federal sentencing guidelines almost never ask for "fully stacked" sentences. Instead, you wind up with X months for the "top count" and a significant "discount" of additional time for each additional count that is either proven or conceded. For a single count, the maximum sentence is almost never handed out unless there are other factors in play. So let's say this guy did admit to all 44 charges and accept a guilty plea on all 44 counts, and that there were no other factors that counted for or against him under the sentencing guidelines. The guidelines would probably recommend that he get a few years for the first count, a year or two more for each of counts 2 and 3, and a month or two for each additional count, likely resulting in a sentence in the 10-15 year range.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Federal Sentencing Guidelines by Reason58 · · Score: 1

      How is it reasonable that the same crime could carry a punishment ranging from 2 to 10 years? I understand variance due to circumstances, but that range seems ripe for abuse.

    2. Re:Federal Sentencing Guidelines by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Federal sentencing guidelines almost never ask for "fully stacked" sentences.

      The term you're looking for is "consecutively." Most of the time, all sentences are served "concurrently," or at the same time. On rare occasions, as you write, a judge will specify that the sentences be served consecutively, to keep an exceptionally bad felon behind bars for as long as possible. Of course, the prosecutor can always threaten to ask for consecutive sentences to bulldoze the defendant into accepting a plea.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    3. Re:Federal Sentencing Guidelines by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

      How is it reasonable that the same crime could carry a punishment ranging from 2 to 10 years? I understand variance due to circumstances, but that range seems ripe for abuse.

      Pouring motor oil into a lake: Could be 1/4 litre, could be 10,000 litres. There should be a huge range for the "same" crime. Assault: The victim might say "ouch", or the victim might be disfigured and in a wheelchair for the rest of their life. There should be a huge range. Murder: Probably much less variation.

    4. Re:Federal Sentencing Guidelines by Gazzonyx · · Score: 1

      Federal sentencing guidelines almost never ask for "fully stacked" sentences. The term you're looking for is "consecutively." Most of the time, all sentences are served "concurrently," or at the same time. On rare occasions, as you write, a judge will specify that the sentences be served consecutively, to keep an exceptionally bad felon behind bars for as long as possible. Of course, the prosecutor can always threaten to ask for consecutive sentences to bulldoze the defendant into accepting a plea.

      I've never considered this before, but isn't that a bit of "the law of unintended consequences"? For instance, if I know that I can commit a single crime now and pay the full rate or commit multiple crimes and pay them off in parallel, why deterrent is there for me to limit my activities?

      I've always hated a law that I've heard of (this is strictly hearsay, I've never actually verified it) where in some parts of the US, if you involve a gun in a robbery there's an automatic minimum sentence which is in line with the sentence for having a gun and committing assault; just by having the gun you're already in as much trouble as if you used it, so there really isn't any incentive to not use it if you think doing so could allow you to avoid capture and prosecution. If you're going to be charged for attempted homicide, it's not like taking a hostage is going to add to your sentence at the end of the day and it has the most narrow chance of getting you off the hook.

      My SO is a paralegal and I'm always amazed at the perverse incentives that are built into the legal system since you always seem to be in for a pound when you're in for a penny. No doubt legislation passed by someone "tough on crime", but the public seems to support it. I've always thought that putting someone in a place where they stand to lose nothing is a rather poor position to put them in.

      <rambling>
      For instance, I had lost my license due to unpaid tickets (I thought I had paid them all off, but I must have missed a payment) and I was pulled over for a taillight being out. At this point I now had a suspended license for driving on a suspended license (aka, strike two before they pull it for 5 years in the state I was then living). I went to a concert with some friends and they all hit the booze a bit hard and when it came time to drive home and they were all too drunk, we let the least drunk guy drive. It was more dangerous than the sober guy driving, obviously, but we reasoned that if we got pulled over the law would take it easier on a guy with a first DUI, a wife and a kid than a guy with a third violation for driving on a suspended license. The math was easy; I got "caught" (I didn't know I was doing anything wrong) a second time and they took my license for a year for the second infraction; your first DUI infraction is an automatic 1 month suspension or so. We knew which crime was "worse" in this case by what would have happened to myself versus what would have happened to the drunk guy that drove us home. We also knew which was safer, but it's not like the cops would have taken that into account, so it wasn't really a consideration in our assessment of the situation.
      </rambling>

      --

      If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

    5. Re:Federal Sentencing Guidelines by Reason58 · · Score: 1

      That still doesn't change the fact that it is so open to abuse that it is virtually guaranteed. What is to stop a DA from threatening a minor offender of the maximum possible sentences unless they plea guilty? Apparently nothing.

    6. Re:Federal Sentencing Guidelines by sjames · · Score: 1

      Still, that's a LOOONG time to be locked in a cage like an animal compared to a misdemeanor and a fine.

  28. Re:Outlawing plea deals should be a national prior by ShaunC · · Score: 1

    People should simply be charged with whatever the crime they are accused of committing.

    I agree, in that prosecutors shouldn't be able to threaten charges of more grievous crimes as a bargaining chip. But one problem is that even the truly applicable charges can compound just as quickly; even given a reasonable prosecutor, the law allows and sometimes requires that they file multiple charges for the same crime.

    I'll give an example. About 10 years ago, I was called for jury duty and selected for a case. I was dismissed during voir dire after expressing favorable opinions about firearms, but I was around long enough that I got to learn a bit about the case, the defendant, and the charges. In a nutshell, some guy got pulled over for a traffic violation and the cop subsequently found a gun and a blunt in his car. It was his bad luck that the traffic stop took place near a school.

    For this, there was a laundry list of charges; something like:

    • Disregarding a traffic control device
    • Reckless endangerment
    • Motor vehicle violation in a designated school zone
    • Possession of narcotics
    • Possession of narcotics within 1 mile of a school
    • Possession of drug paraphernalia
    • Possession of drug paraphernalia within 1 mile of a school
    • Unlawful possession of a firearm
    • Unlawful possession of a firearm within 1 mile of a school
    • Unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon
    • Unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon within 1 mile of a school

    Everything he did, he was charged for again because the event took place near a school. Having some weed got him 4 misdemeanor charges (the cigar portion of the blunt was "paraphernalia" so they charged for that in addition to the weed). Having one handgun on him got him 4 separate felony charges. And here's the one that blew my mind, there was another charge worded something like "going armed during the commission of a felony." The felony he committed was being armed; it's a felony for a convicted felon to have a gun. So because he was armed while he committed that crime - yeah, seriously! - they tacked on another charge.

    Wrap your head around that one:

    Because you were carrying a gun while you were carrying a gun, we're going to charge you again.

    It's like people who get arrested for resisting arrest; the circular logic is a complete perversion of justice. IIRC, it was that "going armed during the commission of a felony" charge that threatened the longest possible sentence out of all the infractions, and it was a completely bullshit charge to begin with.

    Anyway, my point here is that the problem runs deeper than the prosecutors. The problem begins with the laws themselves. There are a lot of prosecutors out there who don't go overboard and reach for the stars, charging a jaywalker with murder or what have you. They don't need to, most of the time; the "legitimate" charges will stack up to enormous sentences all by themselves. We aren't going to get away from that until we revisit the vast corpus of shitty laws out there, especially the ones that require mandatory charges and leave no discretion to the prosecutor.

    --
    Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
  29. BUT... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As long as the defense allows prosecutors and courts and law makers and law enforcers to get away with it, the practices will continue. You all need to go after them so hard, they would wish they were on the front line of a war.

    1. Re: BUT... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's your army, internet tough boy?

  30. Government abuse unpunished. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a public servant, I often get perplexed at how some people in government forget who is their real boss. They think they work for government, instead of the common man.

    And many do that out of fear, because the system will punish them harshly, if they fail to comply with the laws -- even when the laws mean imprisoning (or murdering!) an innocent like we just have seen in the news.

    It all stems from the fact that the government never actually is held responsible for its mistakes. We probably should have some kind of ombudsman who could defy government institutions and propose their restructuring (or even extinction), sending the Legislative a new task of proposing better ones. It's not enough to punish people (though it may be necessary)... the system will laugh and get another puppet to manipulate with fear.

    But... enough with dreams. :-(

    1. Re:Government abuse unpunished. by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      It all stems from the fact that the government never actually is held responsible for its mistakes.

      I would argue that it's not the government itself, but the guilty people within the government that should be held accountable. If a cop beats someone up, the department/city gets sued and pays, not the cop himself. Nothing's going to change until those individuals that are willing to go outside the law have some real skin in the game.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  31. Garbage In, Garbage Out; Treasure In... by neoshroom · · Score: 1

    That's the whole point in throwing the book at someone and then extracting a plea deal.

    Without plea deals the system would grind to a halt.

    Without criminalizing forms of speech the system would be freer to deal with actual crime. The legitimate powers of government reach actions only, not opinions.

    --
    Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
  32. Expatriate woes by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    I'll breathe a sigh of relief when I have alternative citizenship.

    You think? So you haven't had the appropriate discussion with a tax professional familiar with expatriate situations, then. You're in for one seriously depressing conversation. Some locations are worse than others due to local issues in the country of desired residence (the UK is one of these, for instance... your in-country tax load would be very high, starting with VAT and petrol and employment of UK+US tax specialists and going downhill from there -- read this and weep), but you will soon find out just how hard Uncle Sam has worked to make your choice to reside elsewhere a very, very difficult one to follow through on after just a short taste of the many US tax-related downsides, never mind what your ultimate destination country has in store for you.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Expatriate woes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll breathe a sigh of relief when I have alternative citizenship.

      You think? So you haven't had the appropriate discussion with a tax professional familiar with expatriate situations, then. You're in for one seriously depressing conversation.

      Hm. Well, not everything in life devolves to be a function of money. I am aware that the US has a generally lower tax rate than many other western countries, so wouldn't be emigrating in a misplaced attempt to reduce my tax bill.

      However, if US citizenship ends up being more of a liability than an asset once my family and I have alternative citizenship, then I can envision renouncing US citizenship.

      Thanks for the examples, though, not that I would ever consider leaving the US for the UK. Frying pan, fire, etc.

    2. Re:Expatriate woes by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      In the UK, you benefit from the socialist high taxes by such things as free health and dental care and sane employment law, but if you're in the "paying a tax specialist" income bracket you can get away with paying not that much tax quite easily. Petrol is expensive, but then again you won't be driving as far. VAT is only sales tax for a consumer.

      Also, why would you care about US tax-related downsides? You're not exactly going to be extradited for tax fraud.

      The bottom line is that, apart from ideological objections to paying it at all, tax is not really as much of an issue as you make out.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  33. Forget the courts, but make prosecuters pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So lets forget the courts. The prosecutors only prosecute guilty people, and can always get a plea deal conviction. So stop the nonsense and just let them decide who is guilty of what by themselves.

    BUT, give the prosecutors a budget. And charge them for the cost of keeping people in jails. Of course, any fines they impose become revenue to offset that. That way charging a fat corporate becomes much more worthwhile than attacking poor black men. Better yet, why not just privatize the prosecutors, what could possibly go wrong?

    Plea bargains are becoming more popular here in Australia, but still nothing like the US.