Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Ask Slashdot: Can a Felon Work In IT?

Posted by samzenpus on from the orange-is-not-the-new-big-blue dept.

First time accepted submitter Lesrahpem writes I'm a felon with several prior misdemeanor convictions from an immature time in my life. I've since cleaned up my act, and I want to go back into the IT sector. I keep running into potential employers who tell me they'd like to hire me but can't because of my past record (expunging won't work, I'm in Ohio). Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Should I just give up and change careers?"

32 of 720 comments (clear)

  1. America, land of the free... by Bohnanza · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...and home of the lifetime sentence for nearly every crime. Best of luck to you.

    --

    -----

    Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.

    1. Re:America, land of the free... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Funny

      He must have also committed felonies or he wouldn't be a felon...

    2. Re:America, land of the free... by Alomex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well if you don't like it you can exercise your democratic right and vote against it... unless you live in one of the many states that do not allow felons to vote.

      Nice ain't it?

    3. Re:America, land of the free... by xevioso · · Score: 4, Informative

      While it sucks, there's a good reason why companies have asked people about their past criminal history or have done searches.

      If you have past felony convictions for, say grand larceny or other similar crimes, and are hired, and then go on to commit a crime against a customer while working, it's very easy for that company to get sued for millions. It's would be incredibly easy to make the argument that the company knew or should have known that Mr. Felon (who supposedly cleaned up his act) had prior convictions and was a risk to the company and its customers. Then, BLAM, the company is out millions of dollars, all because it didn't check or didn't care.

      Now, while this sucks for the felon trying to land a job, it also sucks for the company, and lets face it, the recidivism rate among past felons is generally pretty high. Why should a company want to risk it's own livelihood or existence just to give you a second chance?

      This is a risk mitigation issue, and maybe it's a good thing that states are making it difficult to ask or check, but companies will do it anyway, just for the reasons I've outlined. Maybe companies in other, "more enlightened" societies haven't had their pants sued off them enough to make this an issue, bit is one here.

    4. Re:America, land of the free... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Or he simply doesn't know the difference. Either way, criminal background checks are required for most IT jobs I have ever applied for and have never seen anyone with a criminal history get an IT job. I have seen people get rejected for reckless driving and DUI as being able to travel and drive to remote facilities was required, let alone a rash of misdemeanors and a felony off the road.

      If you want to stick to IT I would suggest trying to find (or make) friends with others in management positions over IT groups and try to get hired. Some time on the job and some strong references will help your chances, but not guarantee anything as managers' hands are often tied when HR flags a candidate with a criminal history.

      I would also suggest switching your career to politics, as that career path doesn't seem to care much about criminal history.

    5. Re:America, land of the free... by jd142 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, yes, in the same way that Socrates is mortal because Socrates died.

      The thing is, in the good ol' US of A, where less than 10 years ago you could be a felon for owning 6 dildos, we can be pretty darn stupid. http://www.dumblaws.com/law/938. Yes, the law was overturned, but just one example of the way we are tough on crime. And here's some fun with our drug laws. http://netnebraska.org/article/news/938774/how-tough-nebraska-pot-possession-depends-county I like the quote “Let’s say you have a marijuana brownie,” Steller explained. “We would prosecute you for the possession of hash which is a class 4 felony.”

    6. Re:America, land of the free... by vidarlo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Now, while this sucks for the felon trying to land a job, it also sucks for the company, and lets face it, the recidivism rate among past felons is generally pretty high. Why should a company want to risk it's own livelihood or existence just to give you a second chance?

      I think there's a circular logic somewhere there. If you don't have a job, I guess you have a lower threshold for crime. If you have a job, and everything to loose, I guess crime is not so tepmting.

      In most of Europe, criminal convictions is simply irrelevant to jobs. Some jobs require your record, but mostly not the full - only a limited record. For instance, if you work with kids, you need a record clean of child abuse and sexual assaults. But for a general job in IT? Noone would even ask about your record. I have not been asked ever - except for a visa application to the USA.

      I believe the European system is better at integrating convicts back into soceity, stopping them from committing more crime.

      --
      Assembling etherkillers for fun an profit
    7. Re:America, land of the free... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While it sucks, there's a good reason why companies have asked people about their past criminal history or have done searches.

      My experience is that most companies do NOT check. I have worked for half a dozen tech companies, over several decades, and have been involved in hiring over a hundred people. Except for a couple cases that involved security clearances, we never did a criminal background check. Why should we? Studies have shown that people with criminal backgrounds tend to do no worse on the job. You are better off screening out people that use MSIE to fill out their application, since that is actually correlated with poor job performance.

    8. Re:America, land of the free... by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now, while this sucks for the felon trying to land a job, it also sucks for the company, and lets face it, the recidivism rate among past felons is generally pretty high. Why should a company want to risk it's own livelihood or existence just to give you a second chance?

      Yes, it's pretty high precisely because of all the people like yourself with such an attitude. If an ex-felon cannot find a legitimate job they will simply turn to crime and thus will land in prison again. And because of that you will pay more and more in taxes to support that.

      So if you want a society in which recidivism rates go down and ex-felons are reformed rather than becoming life-long criminals who get repeatedly locked up in prison, we should all be trying to push for more ex-felons to be given a second chance.

    9. Re:America, land of the free... by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not hard to understand why companies might be slow to hire ex-cons in a market with a long-term labor surplus. What is harder is fixing the problems created by such policies - you release somebody from prison into society. You deny them voting rights, and employment, and even welfare and food stamps. They literally have no way to get food. And then sit back and wait for the self-fulfilling prophecy of recidivism. You could hardly design a system more likely to fail if you tried.

    10. Re:America, land of the free... by Cytotoxic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with the concepts your are talking about, but I cannot imagine an IT shop failing to check the background of a system administrator who will be working with banking systems, for example. Think about the fallout if Deutsche Bank hired a database administrator with prior convictions for banking fraud, only to see that employee steal 100 million from the bank.

      I'm going to bet that criminal convictions are pretty important in the relevant areas, even in Europe. They probably do a better job of discriminating which information is relevant and which positions are sensitive.

      The part where they ask about prior history might also be different in Europe. In the US I think a large part of the reason for asking about prior criminal history is to set up a situation where it is easy to terminate an employee if they lie on the application. In Europe they might not have to ask before running a criminal background check. And lying on the application might not make a difference when it comes time to terminate an employee.

    11. Re:America, land of the free... by Bogtha · · Score: 4, Insightful

      what's the problem with the loss of the voting franchise?

      Aside from the fact that it's fundamentally incompatible with democracy, wasn't a huge part of the American revolution the idea that there should be no taxation without representation? Those felons are taxpayers, aren't they?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    12. Re:America, land of the free... by TWX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm really starting to wonder if maybe the only felony that should deserve a revocation of the right to vote is vote fraud.

      If the number of convicts or felons is so high that they constitute a voting bloc that could influence law, then perhaps the laws that have convicted them need to be considered.

      That doesn't mean that the voting district, or state, or whatever has to make it particularly easy to vote for those in jail (ie, no polling place in the prison), but if the convict is capable of writing-in to request an absentee or mail-in ballot, then I see no reason why the state should prohibit or preclude that population from voting. I would even argue that those incarcerated in prison (generally long-term) instead of simple jail (short term) should register their address and right to vote where they live, ie, at the prison.

      That might suck for prison-industrial-complex towns like many down in Texas, but there again, if we're incarcerating so many people that they can significantly influence an election, then perhaps our laws incarcerating so many people need to be reconsidered.

      Besides, I expect a lot of those convicted probably didn't vote prior to conviction, and being convicted in of itself isn't likely to get them to start voting either.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    13. Re:America, land of the free... by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Problem is a huge proportion of those people are black, and in America blacks almost always vote democrat.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    14. Re:America, land of the free... by johanw · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know about other EU countries, but in The Netherlands employers can ask for a "declaration about the behaviour" of the applicant. That's a document the government issues, and the employer has to indicate what kind of possibly sensitive things the job requires, like working with children, working with large sums of money, with sensitive/secret information or with dangerous substances. If you're convicted for hild abuse you still can get such a document for working in a bank, but not for a job in childcare (and in childcare the employer is required to ask for such a declaration). If you're convicted for bank fraud the opposite, you are still alowed to work with children.

      That's all most employers can ask, and most won't ask it because if they indicate the job does not require to work with anything like that the declaration will always be given and it's a waste of money and effort. Employers can ask beyond this of course, but I've never eard of it happening and I even think you are legally alowed to lie, the same like an employer isn't alowed to ask if you're pregnant but if he does and you lie a court will not alow the contract to be broken for that.

    15. Re:America, land of the free... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No crime should ever prevent a person from voting. It's a fundamental right to participate in democracy, and if the goal is to rehabilitate offenders then they must be able to fully participate in society after they have paid their debt.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:America, land of the free... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      In Europe convictions are considered "spent" after some time, and you don't have to report them even if they ask. Credit reference agencies and the police are not allowed to reveal those convictions to employers, banks or anyone else.

      So, the OP should move to Europe.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    17. Re:America, land of the free... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Agreed. Up here there was a bit of a furor (mostly by the "usual suspects") when our supreme court ruled that ALL prisoners had the right to vote, but it quickly died down.

      In its decision in Sauvé v. Canada (Chief Electoral Officer) in 2002, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that prisoners serving terms of more than two years could not be disqualified from voting, stating that legislation infringing on prisoners' right to vote was not a reasonable limit of that right

      So ballot boxes in all prisons on election day is now seen as normal. Anything that makes inmates feel like they have a positive connection to greater society is a good thing.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    18. Re:America, land of the free... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The question is not why the right to bear arms is a constitutional right. The question is why the right to vote is not.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:America, land of the free... by mi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The thing is, in the good ol' US of A, where less than 10 years ago you could be a felon for owning 6 dildos

      Somehow I doubt, the asker was convicted only of violating something as stupid as possession of dildos or innocent as that of marijuana — he would've said so (if any employer even paid attention to it in the first place).

      No, he was, by all appearances, genuinely guilty of at least one violent crime — plus some misdemeanors. I'm not saying, he "deserves" never to work in IT at all, but I don't blame the IT-folks — most of whom have not hit anybody in anger since middle school — for not wanting to work (be under the same roof!) with such a guy.

      Why would you choose to drag out your anti-Americanism over this, is beyond me...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    20. Re:America, land of the free... by Creepy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not to mention the forced prison labor market. Felons get to learn "valuable skills" (for third world countries) and make products to sell at full value while getting paid a pittance. Refuse to work? No problem, 3 months in solitary will cure that, or you'll just go nuts. Really, the prison system is just slavery by another name.

    21. Re:America, land of the free... by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In Ohio, criminal records can be expunged except for first and second degree felonies or crimes considered violent- after they are settled and punishment and fines have been paid. There is a process that is sort of like asking for parole but ends up in court with a judge making the final decision.

      He said he couldn't get the felonies expunged because he is in Ohio. This means it was either violent, or a serious enough felony that it was a first or second degree felony as defined by the state. I concur, it was not a crime he woke up one day not realizing he was committing or thought was a minor misdemeanor and got roped into a felony.

    22. Re:America, land of the free... by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, and back when speeding tickets in Texas were misdemeanors (changed in the early 2000s to the points "infraction" system used most other places), I got a conviction (overturned on appeal). I'm even on one of the blackmail criminal background sites.

      But, answering truthfully on a FedEx application (have you ever been convicted of a crime, including any misdemeanors?) got me eliminated from contention for a job there. Apparently they only want lying criminals.

      So yes, even a speeding ticket (going 35 mph in a 55 mph zone was the speed) can get you eliminated from consideration for jobs. The more applicants per position, the more it applies. When they can look at 1000 applications for one position, they'll eliminate all the people with a conviction of any kind and still be left with hundreds of people for the position. The chance of eliminating the only qualified person in that first step is near-zero, and if they don't find anyone in the remaining hundreds, they can always go back to the criminal pile. But in practice they never do.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    23. Re:America, land of the free... by Kabukiwookie · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, he was, by all appearances, genuinely guilty of at least one violent crime

      This is rubbish. Usually it's laziness on the part of HR.

      You have two candidates; one has a felony conviction, the other does not. Do you really think that the HR person is going to invest hist/her time to find out whether person with the felony was only arrested for eating a hash brownie or robbing a liquor store?

      --
      The mountains of madness have many little plateaus of sanity - Terry Pratchett.
  2. Clearance by gcnaddict · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seek federal jobs which offer a clearance. If you admit to everything thoroughly and give the investigators the truth, and if they're not worried about you after all of that (they think the risk of recidivism is low), you'll get the job and you can say on your resume you were cleared for federal work.

    Whenever you decide to leave, the fact that you had a clearance might actually help counteract your priors.

    --
    Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:Clearance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm in personnel security in a Federal agency. Given a few years of productive behavior in society, and positive evidence of rehabilitation, you will probably be able to mitigate any criminal conduct issues for basic suitability or even a security clearance.

      Most agencies use suitability (5 C.F.R. Part 731). As long as you haven't done anything horrible for a few years, you are honest about what you did, and your crimes do not have a direct nexus to the position sought, you will be good to go. The OPM-FIS web site has a little more information on suitability. Beware of the "issue characterization chart" that has been floating around since the JPL lawsuit. It's not current, and it doesn't take into effect numerous additional considerations that upgrade and downgrade issue characterization.

      Cleared positions will use the national security standard (E.O. 12968). Go to the PERSEREC web site and download the Adjudicator's Desk Reference. That will tell you everything you want to know about that. You might also want to find the web site of the Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals, and read some of the published cases. That will give you a realistic idea of how contractors with criminal records mitigate them.

      I wouldn't bother with excepted service positions like law enforcement or the intelligence community.

  3. I've hired people with misdemeanors before by Minupla · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've hired people with misdemeanors before.

    Be honest about the crime, don't have it be a surprise that I find out during the background check part of the hiring process.

    I also know other managers who've done the same. Its tough to find good people. A drug offense 5 yrs ago, with proof of a completed drug treatment program for instance isn't going to stop me from hiring a good IT worker.

    Min

    --
    On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
  4. start your own business? by zr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    unfortunately i'm not speaking from experience, just spitballing ideas.

    best of luck to you!

  5. awww.... by Connie_Lingus · · Score: 5, Informative

    hello and welcome to my life.

    it's well documented here on /. that i struggle with this same issue, and have for over a decade.

    i wish i had good news for you, but i don't. it's going to be hard for you for find "regular" employment.

    my advice? try to find a small company where you can get hired without a lot of fanfare. finding and owner/ceo who does the hiring, or a contracting company where they have no real interest in caring about your background because it will cost them money if they don't place you, is pretty much the only way i've been able to get back into a stable, well-paying job.

    pretty much anyplace with a fulltime HR department will discover your transgressions and gleefully report to the hiring manager that they "gotcha" and are doing a really great job keeping reprobates like us away from their "sanitary" workplace.

    i've started my own small consulting company and have found that it's fairly easy to work from home (im a software guy) doing the code monkey thing...it beats digging ditches that's for sure. i advertise back-end/full-stack web development/server management on craigslist and it works.

    good luck...you are going to need some.

    --
    never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
  6. Start your own business. by yog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You really have very few choices. There are employers out there who actually seek out people with priors, but for the most part you're going to be frustrated in your attempts to land a job.

    Your best bet is to start your own business, for example web design or outsourced PC network maintenance. There are lots of people making a good living as free lancers.

    Once you have gotten established, which admittedly may take a couple of years of networking and marketing efforts, you may not wish to be an employee again anyway. You can set your own hours, choose your own customers, and take full charge of your life. It's not easy, and requires more skills than just showing up and doing a specific task from 9 to 5, but much more fulfilling in the long run, and few will run background checks.

    You're still going to have trouble getting loans; just work hard and build up equity, and the rest will follow. Best of luck.

    --
    it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
  7. No, you're not barred by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Informative

    A felony can only delay a security clearance because the only relevance a felony has to a security clearance is whether it shows a fundamental character issue making one insufficiently trustworthy. That's fundamentally what they want to find out in a background investigation. Can we trust you? That's why a guy who's 40 with a felony charge for selling drugs but can show he's been a cleaned up citizen for 15 years can probably get a clearance but a guy with no criminal past who's had an affair on his wife or two in the recent past cannot hold one.

  8. Re:A felon with misdemeanor convictions by Wycliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Being a felon means he committed a serious crime.

    really???

    i got convicted of felony because i got caught with some personal MDMA pillis in 2001 at an electronic music concert.

    that's a "serious crime"??

    As someone who hires programmers, a felony like this I would completely ignore if everything else was in line.
    Honesty and theft are the big ones in IT not drug use or even assault. Other careers would be different but
    as a programmer you are entrusted with alot of stuff (like credit cards) so a felony that is theft related is
    probably going to be much harder to be overlooked. Drug use, I don't really care that much about. I've hired
    plenty of alcoholics and probably a few pot smokers but as long as it doesn't interfere with their job, why
    should I care?