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The Failed Economics of Our Software Commons

An anonymous reader writes: Most software developers are intimately familiar with having to waste time implementing something they probably shouldn't need to implement, or spending countless hours making their code work with bad (but required) software. Developer Paul Chiusano says this is because the economic model we use for building software just doesn't work. He writes, "What's the problem? In software, everyone is solving similar problems, and software makes it trivial to share solutions to these problems (unlike physical goods), in the form of common libraries, tools, etc. This ease of sharing means it makes perfect sense for actors to cooperate on the development of solutions to common problems. ... Obviously, it would be crazy to staff such critical projects largely with a handful of unpaid volunteers working in their spare time. Er, right?? Yet that is what projects like OpenSSL do. A huge number of people and businesses ostensibly benefit from these projects, and the vast majority are freeriders that contribute nothing to their development. This problem of freeriders is something that has plagued open source software for a very long time." Chiusano has some suggestions on how we can improve the way we allocate resources to software development.

205 comments

  1. Marketshare by roman_mir · · Score: 2

    Freeriders are giving you the marketshare. Having a loss leader is not an uncommon business practice, nor is it untenable.

    1. Re:Marketshare by Alan+Shutko · · Score: 1

      So long as you have other products to sell. If your only product is the loss leader, you are screwed.

    2. Re:Marketshare by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2
      The incremental cost of each "freeloader" is zero. The risk of having only "One True Way" to do something is huge.

      He uses OpenSSL as an example, and that companies should be devoting funds to this to help make it "perfect" to prevent the next Heartbleed attack. This ignores that there are already alternatives to OpenSSL. So, who should get the funding? OpenSSL or one of the alternatives?

      This is like governments trying to pick economic "winners" and giving them all sorts of moola. Doesn't work.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:Marketshare by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Don't look up loss leader, read up on the tragedy of the commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

      If something is free, people will not contribute sufficiently to the resources. Which is the writer's main grip.

      There are ways to get around this. You can charge for it, which runs against open source. Yes, one can make money by charging for support. However, while you might charge for support that does not mean you would contribute back to the open source project – so we still have a suboptimal solution. You can force contributions either explicitly (government) or implicitly using social pressure. Social pressure is what is being used now. Social pressure works better in small communities where trust can be built. Not so much in the wilds of the internet.

    4. Re:Marketshare by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Funny

      In this case the loss leader may just be a payment on other projects.

      When Elon Musk develops his Tesla thing that I do not own, does this change things for me, does it make me poorer or wealthier? Well, it's making the economy more productive, it's making the overall economy wealthier because of this new product that people want and a generally wealthier economy allows people to pursue their hobbies and in the case of free software developers the hobbies are developing free software (excuse me for that), so when I say a "loss leader", maybe another way to put it is a payment.

      In the software world code because currency itself. Code is something tangible, code has intrinsic value to people who want to use that code for something, so code is actually money. We exchange code, we exchange money, we make payments to each other this way.

      In fact us not charging for our code in some fiat government currency but instead just using each other's code, we are going around the government taxation and various business regulations.

      For all the talk about so many programmers being 'socialists', we are actually doing everything we can to avoid paying taxes, if the politicians only understood what kind of an economy is running right under their noses in this so called "free" software community, they'd be screaming murder! There would be Obama on the stage, talking about "paying fair share" and throwing "you didn't build that" slogans, while pointing fingers at a community that exchanges what basically amounts to labour without allowing government to skim off the top.

    5. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Stake YOUR livelyhood on it and i would take you more seriously, i.e. you first.

      There needs to be a licence that obligates those who profit from software to contribute whilst still allowing colaborative development and still free for personal use.

      Corporate freeloaders sponging off the hard work of volunteers is just crazy,.

      Freedom 0 (free to use for any purpose) is much to blame, it abandons any sense of ethics, and even demands the freedom to make society less free.

    6. Re:Marketshare by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Interesting

      wait, WHAT? A group of people releases some code without asking for any money and then if people start using the code then they will come for money later? I am with the OpenBSD team on this, not with you! What you are suggesting is actually immoral and probably cannot be legally enforced. Once you release your code under a license that allows people to use it (at least that version of it, which you released), you can't now come after those people's money!

      You know you don't have to develop anything at all, you don't have to develop anything for free and you don't have to develop anything and then give it away, but if you do, don't cry if people start using it!

      Now, I already mentioned that in free software community code became money long time ago, that's the point I am trying to make - code is money and we exchange it for free seemingly, but actually we are making a payment with our code to other people who also create code that we can use.

      Code is money and the labour that is used to create this wealth is not taxed or regulated by government, we do it on our own around all government regulations and around taxes and that is what built a vibrant economy, which the guy in TFA doesn't understand.

    7. Re:Marketshare by blue+trane · · Score: 2

      Pre-Reagan America had a government that didn't charge for national parks, but James G. Watt changed that.

      Government should provide for the General Welfare. It can and should create money to do so. The Fed has proven it can create money at will, and the stock market has reached record heights. Use that power of money creation to empower individuals instead of corporations, in the form of a Basic Income, say. Then people can work on open source, wikipedia, and challenges if they choose, instead of entering the morally hazardous world of the market with its perverse incentives.

    8. Re:Marketshare by Teckla · · Score: 1

      There needs to be a licence that obligates those who profit from software to contribute whilst still allowing colaborative development and still free for personal use.

      Such licenses have existed for a long time. They typically specify something along the lines of "free for non-commercial use" (which tends to imply "you have to buy a license to use the code in a commercial application").

      The company I work for contributes to open source / free (little 'f') software, but only when the licenses are liberal in nature (e.g., BSD). The GPL is off limits.

    9. Re:Marketshare by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      The stock market reaching record highs in the face of a bigger money supply is called inflation. That's a Bad Thing(TM).

      It doesn't increase our productive capacity, but instead it's a form of theft from people who have savings (people who fund large capital projects), to the benefit of people who receive the money: typically banks, the government, the politically well-connected (in that order).

      How about nobody steals from anyone?

    10. Re:Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, I love quotes like these because they usually signal that the market has peaked and that my outstanding short positions are going to start making money soon.

    11. Re:Marketshare by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      How about the Fed give money to individuals instead of corporations? Or just use fiscal policy, funded by the Fed at zero cost to taxpayers.

      Inflation is psychological. Deal with it through indexation of everything (savings accounts, transfer payments, everything) as Israel does, successfully.

    12. Re:Marketshare by SillyHamster · · Score: 3

      How about the Fed give money to individuals instead of corporations?

      "Steal from the right people" is still worse than "don't steal".

    13. Re:Marketshare by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Interesting, so how is it a "troll" to indicate that government has nothing, it doesn't own anything, it cannot own anything and thus it cannot give anybody anything.

      Government doesn't produce food, it doesn't manufacture cars, it doesn't pump oil from the underground reserves, it doesn't do anything that it can 'dole out' to anybody.

      The only way for government to 'dole out' other people's productivity to you is to steal it. Stealing via taxes is one thing, stealing via inflation is another. But the huge difference is that if the government is stealing productive output from people who do not live in your country via money printing right now, it does not mean that it can do that forever, because nothing forces those people to accept that fake paper.

      And that obvious fact is marked a "troll" on /. and people are still confused whether this is a 'right' or a 'left' site?

    14. Re:Marketshare by Don+Wills · · Score: 1

      I have no mod points to try to fix the ridiculous classification of this post as Troll. I'm reminded of Orwell's warning - "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

    15. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Once you release your code under a license that allows people to use it (at least that version of it, which you released), you can't now come after those people's money!

      You can allow people to use it under certain conditions, its not unusual.

      And you dont have to agree with me about such a licence, people code for different reasons. It doesnt harm you if people release software under licences you dont like. (assuming your not "forced" to use it)

    16. Re:Marketshare by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Never watched Robin Hood, huh?

    17. Re:Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      National Park entrance fees predated formation of the National Park Service, and continued afterwards. The goal (or at least he ideal) was for the major parks to be self-supporting based upon entrance fees and concession fees.

      http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/mackintosh3/fees1a.htm

    18. Re:Marketshare by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      No, it doesn't hurt me when people release anything under any license they like, the market share of that code will be negligible, there are many licenses like it (free excluding commercial use) but it doesn't hurt anybody. Many projects have corporate contributors, I believe the point of writing code is to have it used, not for it to sit somewhere idly so I would not write under such a license. I much prefer the BSD license myself to any other non-free version (including the GPL).

    19. Re:Marketshare by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Shhh. Don't start pointing out facts, they are frowned upon in these parts.

    20. Re:Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Robin Hood stole from the government and returned money to the people who earned it that a corrupt government had extorted it from. The rich he stole from weren't wealthy through their own efforts but through their ability to practice extortion by force and coercion.

    21. Re:Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government doesn't produce food, it doesn't manufacture cars, it doesn't pump oil from the underground reserves,

      But it could, and in certain cases governments have done this *shrug*

    22. Re: Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In today's western economies, force and exertion have been replaced by regulatory capture and lobbying.

    23. Re:Marketshare by rioki · · Score: 1

      The FED does not give money to corporations, they primarily interface with the government and banks. It also does not give money, it LENDS money to them. The trick employed here, is that in accounting terms money is added to the active and passive side equally and thus it balances out. Of course this is just smoke and mirrors, since under normal circumstances you actually need to have money to lend it to someone else, but that is not the case at the FED. In addition they get interest on the lending.

      Generally I am not opposed to the notion of a central bank that can act as a lender of last resort. But in the case of the FED, "the Federal Reserve is as federal as Federal Express".

    24. Re:Marketshare by Tom · · Score: 2

      "Steal from the right people" is still worse than "don't steal".

      Propaganda.

      Stealing is the unlawful taking of someone else's property. There, I even highlighted the important word for you. There are many good reasons for lawfully taking someone's property or rather: Small parts of it. Unless you're a hard-core anarchist, you have to solve the problem of how to keep the government (small or big) working at all, and sooner or later your solution will be taxes, even if you call it by a different name.

      The major disagreement between political factions is how much to tax, who to tax and what to spend the money on, but never about taxation itself.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    25. Re:Marketshare by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      The levels of inflation the last 20 years are not a bad thing, unless you mean they're too low. Effectively it's practically nothing, prices have been stable for decades. People who have savings invest it -- in the stock market and banks -- so they're the ones benefiting.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    26. Re:Marketshare by rioki · · Score: 1

      There is a certain corundum you need to solve. If you sell your software from the beginning, there is a real chance that nobody will ever buy it. If you open source it it may become a huge hit, but you get not money out of it. Assuming that successful open source projects would also be stellar successes when closed source is nonsense.

      Also equating that rich corporations are "ripping you off" since they would have payed you good sums, is also nonsense. If no open source alternative was available and they really needed the software they would have just build it themselves and certainly not payed you. Alternatively some projects just exists because the use of open source make the project viable.

    27. Re:Marketshare by g4sy · · Score: 1

      The major disagreement between political factions is how much to tax, who to tax and what to spend the money on, but never about taxation itself.

      Oh so basically you've bounded the debate? Are you being paid for your time spend propagandizing? By the way, it is in the best interest of the state (undoubtedly the most powerful entity in the US) to make everyone think that the only options are different flavours of itself.

      Regardless, you have to explain what "lawful" means. I don't care about legal this and changed-the-constitution-100-years-ago-now-its-lawful. Because morally, there's no difference between taxation and thieft-at-gunpoint-threatened-with-kidnapping. Other than 400 years ago, we did it with swords and gallows and dungeons and now we've made it a bit cleaner. Morally, the difference between a "noble" passing a law that he can rape your wife on the first night of your marriage and then take your money for the rest of your life, is exactly the same as changing the US constitution to allow the state to tax in like manner.

      Please reply. With a MORAL argument. Not a legal one. Do you really think that I could take you back in time before The State (blessed be thy name) made stealing wrong (but not the legal kind) and killing wrong (but, again, not the legal kind) and the shoot you in the head, just because it was not legally wrong? Is there no room in this world for morals? Are you saying that if you took your family sailing, and happened to get blown to an island outside of the US EEC zone, that anyone who found you could just steal, rape, kill at will? Because, in your opinion, it's not "legally" wrong? The only problem I have with statists is that I've never met one with a moral compass, and that's sad

      --
      somewhere, on a Big Red Sign:
      if(color==blue){speed--;}
    28. Re:Marketshare by expatriot · · Score: 1

      I thought /. justified music piracy because the marginal cost was zero and people who really cared about music would do it anyway.

      What is the equivalent of music concerts as a revenue source for coders?

    29. Re: Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US inflation over the last 20 years is in the area of 50%.

      STFU.

    30. Re:Marketshare by Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh so basically you've bounded the debate?

      Show me a single argument that's not from either an anarchist or an idiot that explains how to run a country with zero taxation (ignore the tiny minority of countries that can run entirely on oil exports or such, we're talking the general case).

      Regardless, you have to explain what "lawful" means.

      No, I don't. That word is in the dictionary and its definition is in no way disputed.

      I don't care [...] Because morally,

      So you're asking me to explain "lawful" only to say that it actually doesn't matter?

      Other than 400 years ago, we did it with swords and gallows and dungeons and now we've made it a bit cleaner.

      You need to get your head out of your ass and into a history book. The rule of law is at least 2000 years old and while governments have always had the option of force, its actual use is comparatively rare. Especially compared to mob rule. Today, 100 or 1000 years ago - you can clearly see that when the government breaks down, violence and crimes increase dramatically.

      Morally, the difference between a "noble" passing a law that he can rape your wife on the first night of your marriage and then take your money for the rest of your life, is exactly the same as changing the US constitution to allow the state to tax in like manner.

      Firstly, you really need to study history. While ius primae noctis makes for a great legend, historians today are not convinced it ever actually existed, and even if it did there are no confirmed cases of it ever being actually used.

      Secondly, you should explain whether you are ok with the general principle of a society or not. In this context, "society" means that a group of people can make rules for themselves and enforce them. The details (nobility, democracy, segregation of powers, etc.) are unimportant as long as you make a covert argument that basically calls anything except pure anarchy immoral. So please come out of hiding behind phrases and state your position clearly. Do you think that people should be able to form societies and enforce their rules on each other or not?

      With a MORAL argument

      Humans are social animals by nature.
      A society can only function if it can enforce its rules.
      Laws are basically moral rules written down.
      Therefore, I don't see a principal difference between legal and moral arguments.

      The difference is that everyone thinks they understand moral, but few people understand law. And yes, not all laws are codified ethics, that's true. Many are of administrative nature, for example.

      Is there no room in this world for morals?

      Morals differ, even from person to person. That's why a society needs a common set of values.

      anyone who found you could just steal, rape, kill at will?

      Look around you. What's happening in Syria and Iraq? What's happening in parts of Africa? Yes, my idealistic friend, this is exactly what happens when government breaks down and societies fail. Sure, it is morally wrong, but it happens.

      So in fantasy lalaland, where everyone is perfectly moral and also shares the same morals, you don't need governments, taxation and all this shit. In the real world, where real humans with all their mistakes live, you do.

      I won't ask you to describe how a world based purely on morals and without government "interference" would work. Greater minds have failed at that task.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    31. Re: Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this like when you ask artists to work for free because 'exposure'?

      Call me when you can eat for market share or exposure.

    32. Re:Marketshare by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      I don't care about legal this and changed-the-constitution-100-years-ago-now-its-lawful. Because morally, there's no difference between taxation and thieft-at-gunpoint-threatened-with-kidnapping.

      Legal is when the governed society agrees on expected behaviors an consequences. Moral is how you believe you should act. So, you thinking that you deserve my iPhone and using your gun to realize that belief may be moral but illegal. The society getting together and stating that we will provide armed protection against invaders (among other things) and that each person will share the cost of that protection is a statement of moral value. The society codifying that moral value by writing, revoking, or revising their written rules is legal. As long as there's a social contract, legal actions are a subset of socially moral actions.

      I'm sorry you live in a country where your moral code is so divergent from the society - none of us get to choose our birthplace, after all. But given that your moral position is the deviant one, perhaps you can provide the moral argument against communal functions of society. Or at least an alternative system for providing essential services that does not require the society to share in the economic activity of its participants.

    33. Re:Marketshare by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      That is a brilliant way of looking at it. But keep your voice down before Uncle Sam realizes what we're up to and comes looking to get his beak wet.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    34. Re:Marketshare by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Stake YOUR livelyhood on it and i would take you more seriously, i.e. you first.

      There needs to be a licence that obligates those who profit from software to contribute whilst still allowing colaborative development and still free for personal use.

      Corporate freeloaders sponging off the hard work of volunteers is just crazy,.

      Freedom 0 (free to use for any purpose) is much to blame, it abandons any sense of ethics, and even demands the freedom to make society less free.

      Why? A GPL is only one way to license and develop code, and everyone who uses it understands the ramifications. There is no obligation to contribute while everyone is free to use it as they say fit. the only obligation is to release any modified code you distribute under the GPL. As with any contract you are free to accept it or not. No one is sponging off anyone given the license freely allows anyone to use the code with no expectation of renumeration. If you don't like the GPL you can create your own license and use it; no one is stopping you from doing that. If you don't like someone using code you write and distribute under the GPL then don't use the GPL. It's pretty simple.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    35. Re:Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Government should provide for the General Welfare. It can and should create money to do so. The Fed has proven it can create money at will, and the stock market has reached record heights. Use that power of money creation to empower individuals instead of corporations, in the form of a Basic Income, say."

      This is one of the most stupid fucking things I have read.

      Money does not have value simply because the govt says it does. It has value because people value it. Sure, print all kinds of money - then a gallon of milk will cost a few hundred dollars.

      Your understanding of economics is similar to a christian conservatives understanding of evolution.

    36. Re:Marketshare by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Stealing is the unlawful taking of someone else's property. There, I even highlighted the important word for you. There are many good reasons for lawfully taking someone's property or rather: Small parts of it. Unless you're a hard-core anarchist, you have to solve the problem of how to keep the government (small or big) working at all, and sooner or later your solution will be taxes, even if you call it by a different name.

      Oh, so it's not stealing as long as you pass a law to do so.

      The legal does not override the moral. Even if a government made it legal to kill people of the wrong skin color for any reason, it would still be morally wrong to do so, and I am well within reason to call it murder, legal or not.

      The major disagreement between political factions is how much to tax, who to tax and what to spend the money on, but never about taxation itself.

      I was addressing a point that thought it'd be fine for the Federal government to print money, as long as it gave it to the "right" people.

      Printing money is a way to secretly steal from the savers of society. It is indiscriminate and ultimately will most benefit the people in power and the people with connections, no matter who else nominally benefits. (ex: The People)

    37. Re:Marketshare by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Yes, thank you for illustrating the similarities to today's US for me. :) The only difference, is that the government itself doesn't hold the money, but rather transfers it to the rich.

    38. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Why do people care about software freedom and not care about freedom in real life.

      What is the point in making software free if its going to be used to make society less free. Which is what has happened, corporations use software freedom to leaverage their non-software power over society.

      I dont think everyone forsaw that.

      And yes i agree people dont have to use the GPL, but as long as people believe in Freedom 0 there is no hope of people who more deeply care about freedom from COLLABORATING ON SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT, which is what its uspposed to be all about.

      I like the idea of snowdrift, which is what the story is about, but it still demands all software treat corporations as equals to people.

    39. Re:Marketshare by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Looking at this pragmatically, we need governments. Places with more than a few hundred people and without effective governments have big problems with social disorder and economic disruption and other issues. They also tend to develop governments on the "might is right" principle.

      Governments need resources to function. These resources normally come primarily from taxes.

      Is it your argument that it's immoral to do what's necessary to secure peaceful societies with opportunities for economic development?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    40. Re:Marketshare by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You emphasize "foreigners are not obligated to give you stuff they produce in exchange for paper dollars" like it meant something. In fact, they aren't obligated to trade at all, and so all foreign trade is voluntary. This means that, if somebody ships us automobiles in exchange for paper dollars, they must have some reason to value said paper dollars more than the automobiles. Since a whole lot of people want to sell whole lots of stuff to the US, it would appear that they think paper dollars have a lot of value.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    41. Re:Marketshare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The rich he stole from weren't wealthy through their own efforts but through their ability to practice extortion by force and coercion.

      Kind of like the current richest are wealthy through the efforts of their employees, from whom they extort value and compliance?

      Somehow I don't think even King John could have got his subjects to piss in a cup on demand.

    42. Re:Marketshare by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Why do people care about software freedom and not care about freedom in real life.

      What is the point in making software free if its going to be used to make society less free. Which is what has happened, corporations use software freedom to leaverage their non-software power over society.

      The GPL in no way limits freedom in real life. Anyone is free to use the code in any way they see fit without paying a penny. That is the most free model available. TFA's author main point is upset that companies don't support free software nd seem stop believe that FOSS is more worthy of development than other project companies work on and thus they freeload on FOSS; except that they are not really freeloading since the GPL specifically allows such behavior as part of the license.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    43. Re:Marketshare by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Is it your argument that it's immoral to do what's necessary to secure peaceful societies with opportunities for economic development?

      I'm saying printing money is stealing. What point of mine do you think you're responding to?

      printing money != taxation

    44. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      I didnt say the GPL limits freedom.
      I implied the GPL makes it easier for corporations to limit peoples freedom.

    45. Re:Marketshare by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      I didnt say the GPL limits freedom. I implied the GPL makes it easier for corporations to limit peoples freedom.

      How so? You have all the freedom in the world to use the code as you see fit no matter what someone else does with it. If anything, the GPL prevents someone from limiting your freedom since they cannot stop you from doing whatever you want with the code, all they can do is use the code how they want to.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    46. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Now your just trolling...

      "they cannot stop you from doing whatever you want with the code", well they can put it in a box with no connections on it and sell the box (e.g TV's), or put it behind a webserver, or deny modified software even exists.

      Freedom goes beyond code, what about freedom of speech and the right to privacy. Where would firewalls and surveilence networks be without free software. Or patent protected global ecommerce sites.

      Free softare should be about more than software.

    47. Re:Marketshare by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Now your just trolling...

      "they cannot stop you from doing whatever you want with the code", well they can put it in a box with no connections on it and sell the box (e.g TV's), or put it behind a webserver, or deny modified software even exists.

      If they redistribute the code without complying with the license then they could be compelled by court to comply if somme wanted to force the issue. No model is going to ensure everyone plays by the rules without being forced to; that they behave that way doesn't make the software any less free.

      Freedom goes beyond code, what about freedom of speech and the right to privacy.

      Now you're sounding like a troll. None of those have anything to do with free software as you are not forced to speak (i.e. contribute to the development) nor prevented from speaking (using the code). As for privacy, how does free software impact your right to privacy? It's simply there for you to use if you want to and you can determine if it meets your "privacy" standard.

      Where would firewalls and surveilence networks be without free software. Or patent protected global ecommerce sites.

      Free softare should be about more than software.

      All of those things would exist without free software as well. Your assumption that somehow things that exist today would not if there was no free software is flawed; as evidenced by the number of proprietary, non-free alternatives to most free software. You may not like that people can make money off of free software but that has been a feature of it from the beginning.

      Free softare should be about more than software

      Why?

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    48. Re:Marketshare by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Just google "But who will build the roads?" and you'll find all the explanation you need. And anecdotes like this this:

      "Who will build the roads?" is a question that belongs at the top of every libertarian drinking game. If we didn't have state coercion, the argument runs, there would be no roads. There'd be a Sears tower over there, and your house over here, and everyone involved would just be standing there scratching their heads.

      (fwiw, we had private roads all throughout American history, and in fact the first government-funded transportation in North America was water canals.)

      Please note the distinction between ethics and morals. The former is always objective. No matter who you are, no matter what race you are, it's always wrong to kill, steal, defraud, or otherwise initiate violence. The laws written down are just a codification on how to establish justice. They might vary, but they're all pretty good substitutes for each other. Some locales might have slightly different understandings: In the US, you're expected to pay for you food after you eat it; and not knock on people's doors at unreasonable hours of the night, so there might be a law saying "no unsolicited knocking on doors after 22:00". These are fine.

      Morals, by contrast, are something we learn after reading a bedtime story. Probably good advice, but not necessarily true, depending on the person's exact situation. Don't go into excessive debt is my favorite.

      The issue is never about government per se, but it's about rule of law. The Framers intended the Federal government to be as close to anarchy as possible while keeping rule of law, and indeed that is the only ethical thing is can do. If the government is indeed a government of the people, it can't do anything that one person couldn't do by themselves.

      For this reason it's impossible to add "unlawful" to the definition of "theft" because then by definition, the government can't steal. This directly contradicts the notion that the government is accountable to the people. Theft is theft. If I own it, and it's taken from me against my will, it's theft, period.

      If it's absolutely necessary to have some theft in order to keep rule of law for everything else, fine. But don't pretend that the trillions of dollars spent on warfare, welfare, and bailouts is protecting the rule of law in the slightest bit.

    49. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Freedom 0 exists to avoid making a moral choice between good and bad.

      If we accept the argument that Free software is used for the purposes of good, then we also have to accept responsibility for some of the bad.

      At the end of the day people could choose to use proprietry software for the "bad", they could still do it, but at least in theory it would be expensive for them.

      Choosing ignorance is not a moral position.

    50. Re:Marketshare by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Freedom 0 exists to avoid making a moral choice between good and bad.

      Software is simply a tool, there is no moral choice involved in its creation; that comes when someone decides to use it. As such, FOSS simply allows creation of software via a community model. Other less free ones exist as well but to say model X is a more more moral choice because it confirms to your view of how software should be developed is not a valid argument for it being more moral.

      If we accept the argument that Free software is used for the purposes of good, then we also have to accept responsibility for some of the bad.

      Hardly. A tools creator is not responsible for how it is used unless they participate in its use. If they create it for an immoral purpose then they share the responsibility; however if they create it for other reasons then they bear no blame for its immoral use.

      At the end of the day people could choose to use proprietry software for the "bad", they could still do it, but at least in theory it would be expensive for them.

      The cost of a tool has no bearing on whether it is used of good or bad. TFA argument is the free riders are bad; a position which is in total opposition to the concept of FOSS. Th writer seems to believe that because someone uses FOSS they incur an obligation to provide financial support for its further development; a position that is neither supported by the gPL nor the philosophy of FOSS. A user's obligation when using GPL's software is pretty clear and the solution to the writer's concern is not to use the GPL if you want renumeration from people using the software yo create. There is no moral decision involved, it is strictly a business one.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    51. Re:Marketshare by bug1 · · Score: 1

      There is no moral decision involved, it is strictly a business one.

      And there you have it, i will say no more.

    52. Re:Marketshare by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      There is no moral decision involved, it is strictly a business one.

      And there you have it, i will say no more.

      Correct. Choosing a software license is not a moral decision.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    53. Re:Marketshare by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      Taxation is about diverting a percentage of the energy (or work product) of individuals toward groups, to support organized work for the collective societal super-organism. This is much more efficient than having hundreds or thousands of individuals and micro-hierarchies (gangs) come up with competing and necessarily conflicting plans for collective harnessing and transformation of resources. One thing to remember is that hierarchical governance of human activity will occur, one way or another. It is built into our nature as a species. You get to choose some aspects of the rules or form that the hierarchical governance takes (democracy, inherited or class-based nobility and patronage, dictatorship by seizing control...) and within a spectrum, the slope of the hierarchy; horizontal organization with minimal (but non-zero) hierarchy, or steep totalitarian hierarchy. The reason it is built into our nature is because it is mathematically and thermodynamically an efficient way of coordinating collective activity of intelligent, self-motivated agents and of ensuring stability and cooperation of societal and economic organs.

      Organized society often leads to increased security for individual members, and to a productive economy based on competition, but competition within a stable framework of rules and trust.

      Anarchy probably entails inefficient scrambling around and squabbling among many competing decision makers, till it settles down and hierarchies of one sort or another, and one level of fairness or another, re-establish themselves naturally because of the efficiencies and power dynamics. And hierarchical governance needs some percentage of resources and member energy (or work output) channeled toward the coordinated collective activities and structures.

      In short, some form of hierarchical organization of human activity is inevitable, because it is more efficient than anarchy, and hierarchical organization requires taxation. The grandparent post is correct. All we can and do argue about is the level and focus of use of taxation. Only the most naive argue we shouldn't have it at all, or could sustainably avoid it.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  2. Article doesn't address they "why" by crioca · · Score: 2
    And why is the situation like that? Because our Intellectual Property laws, which shape the markets for software and other information assets, are completely bonkers.

    If we want to address this issue, we need a complete overhaul of our IP laws.

    1. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by jratcliffe · · Score: 2

      What aspect of current IP law do you believe creates this situation (i.e. the ease of free-riding on open source), and how should they be reformed?

      This looks like a classic tragedy of the commons problem, in which case assigning ownership (i.e. eliminating the free-as-in-beer aspects of FOSS) is the relevant solution.

    2. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      What would you suggest? Stronger? Weaker? What?

      Personally, I would advocate for a system which had a shorter time period and exposed more of the standards and source code.

    3. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by grcumb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If we want to address this issue, we need a complete overhaul of our IP laws.

      Er, no.

      The 'why' has little to do with IP law and a lot to do with group dynamics, especially herd behaviour. Take this statement, for example:

      One of my personal pet causes is developing a better alternative to HTML/CSS. This is a case where the metaphorical snowdrift is R&D on new platforms (which could at least initially compile to HTML/CSS).

      The problem with the 'snowdrift' here, to abuse the metaphor, has nothing to do with IP law, and nothing to do with lack of innovation. It has everything to do with the size of the drift. You don't have any choice but to wait for someone else to come along to help shovel. But the author is trying to say, If everyone doesn't shovel, nobody gets out. And that's not always true.

      A quick reminder: When HTML first came out, the very first thing virtually every proprietary software vendor of note did was publish their own website design tool. And each of those tools used proprietary extensions and/or unique behaviour in an attempt to corner the market on web development, and therefore on the web itself.

      But the 'snowdrift' in this case was all the other companies. Because no single one of them was capable of establishing and holding overwhelming dominance, the 'drift' was doomed to remain more manageable by groups than by any single entity. (Microsoft came closest to achieving dominance, but ultimately their failure was such that they have in fact been weakened by the effort.)

      Say what you like about the W3C, and draw what conclusions you will from the recent schism-and-reunification with WHATWG. The plain fact is that stodgy, not-too-volatile standards actually work in everybody's favour. To be clear: they provide the greatest benefit to the group, not to the enfant terrible programmer who thinks he knows better than multiple generations of his predecessors.

      Yes, FOSS projects face institutional weaknesses, including a lack of funding. Especially on funding for R&D. But funded projects face significant weaknesses as well. Just look at the Node.JS / io.js fork, all because Joyent went overboard in its egalitarian zeal. Consider also that recent widely publicised bugs, despite the alarm they've caused, haven't really done much to affect the relative level of quality in funded vs proprietary vs unfunded code bases. They all have gaping holes, but the extent of their suckage seems to be dependent on factors other than funding. If not, Microsoft would be the ne plus ultra of software.

      Weighed in the balance, therefore, FOSS's existential problems are real, and significant, but they're not as significant as those faced by all the other methods we've tried. So to those who have a better idea about how to balance community benefits and obligations, I can only reply as the Empress famously did when revolutionaries carried her bodily from the palace: 'I wish them well.'

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What aspect of current IP law do you believe creates this situation (i.e. the ease of free-riding on open source), and how should they be reformed?

      This looks like a classic tragedy of the commons problem, in which case assigning ownership (i.e. eliminating the free-as-in-beer aspects of FOSS) is the relevant solution.

      How?

      It's pretty much impossible to eliminate the free-as-in-beer while keeping the free-as-in-speech.

      What? Like this: "Here's this open software - you can do ANYTHING you want with it. Except use it unless you pay."

    5. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by Artifakt · · Score: 2

      Anyone who uses the phrase "Tragedy of the Commons" should have to first pass a test showing they know the history of the enclosure acts before they throw that phrase around.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    6. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by g4sy · · Score: 1

      I'm very familiar with the enclosure acts. In your opinion though, is common land a good analog for software, and other places where the term is bandied about? Surely there must be some differences (internet, software, etc etc can be copied at will and is post-scarcity, land is a resource which is best managed carefully ala permaculture, enclosure, hedgerows, coppicing etc etc)?

      --
      somewhere, on a Big Red Sign:
      if(color==blue){speed--;}
    7. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      To be honest it seems to me that the author hasn;t a clue what the real problem is.

      He wants people to develop libraries that solve a problem... and then says that his cause is developing something new.

      Our problem is that the established, mature libraries do not get enough use, there are too many people who think that they need to write a new thing to replace them.,.. and so we have lots of software that doesn't work well because its all reinvented wheels.

      I'm sure if he did come up with a new HTML/CSS system, it'd be pretty much as bad as the existing one, just different. I'd rather he helped extend or evolve it instead, and build upon what we already have. Then we'd get out of this mindset that we must always be upgrading to something new, and not improving what we have.

      I guess its a subtle difference sometimes as we do need some new things, but nowhere near the rate and disruption that occurs today.

    8. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's not the tragedy of the commons because people using FOSS don't detract from it or create costs for the developers. In fact, more people using the software tends to help the developers because it increases the chances that on of those users will feel like contributing.

      TFA seems to think that unpaid hobbyists developing software isn't a good idea either, but even the supposedly "bad" example of OpenSSL actually demonstrates the opposite. Would commercial software be any better? Doubtful. When security flaws are discovered, would a commercial vendor get patches out any quicker? Unlikely.

      You also have to consider the benefit to society that OpenSSL has given us. If it had been a commercial product then I'm sure banks and big sites would be willing to pay to use it, but we live in a world where we need to encrypt everything all the time and that means zero cost software to do it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right, it's not a tragedy of the commons, it's a free rider problem. Brain failure last night. Still raises the question, what changes to our IP laws would fix that? In both tragedy of the commons and free rider problems, assigning excludable ownership fixes the problem, but would likely create others...

    10. Re:Article doesn't address they "why" by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      I had the same initial thought about IP laws, so I will take a stab at answering your question. Could it be that our IP laws put a large damper on cooperation and sharing libraries? I know we have open source, but those have a specific license on them because of our IP laws. Maybe the need for that license is a barrier to some resources. What if large commercial entities were free to share efforts on basic libraries without fear of a major legal train wreck? If those efforts could supplement what is already available, things would be better.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  3. Open sores LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want to be paid then charge for the software. Don't whine after the fact that thing you give away for free is used FOR FREE.

  4. No Leeches! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reminds me of the "No Leeches" of the BBS days. Maybe we will see some upload / download ratios.

  5. In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words, "People aren't writing the software I think they should be working on! WAAH!"

  6. "This problem of freeriders is something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... that has plagued open source software for a very long time."

    You mean entropy, this "free riders" problem is nothing but a restatement of limited amount of biological energy in any given human being to perform work over their lifetime. Human beings are limited creatures in terms of time and energy. If you want more then you're going to have to convince someone with the purse strings to finance some of these things on behalf of the common good. Good luck with that.

    1. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by blue+trane · · Score: 0

      "someone with the purse strings to finance some of these things on behalf of the common good"

      Government should, because it is mandated to "provide ... for the General Welfare." Create a Basic Income (financed by the Fed at zero cost to taxpayers), and give people the choice to work on what they are interested in, instead of what some little Napoleon boss thinks they should work on.

    2. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by jratcliffe · · Score: 2

      "Create a Basic Income (financed by the Fed at zero cost to taxpayers),"

      How, out of curiosity, will this miracle be achieved? What magic wand will the Fed wave in order to create these resources from midair?

      Now, there's a pretty decent argument for a basic income (from economists across the political spectrum, including Friedman, not generally known as a soft-headed liberal), but the money would have to be transferred from elsewhere in the economy via taxes.

    3. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by jythie · · Score: 1

      I could actually see some targeted NSF or CERTS funding going to something like that. When something becomes critical to infrastructure it starts making sense to put in some public funding since each company benefiting from it has a financial incentive for someone else to foot the bill.

    4. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And where does this magic free money come from? I guess the same place as all the other "off budget" projects.

    5. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      If you honestly think that someone paying you to do some work is a little Napoleon, you truly haven't thought out what a government that has total control over your economics will be like. Hint: Big Napoleon.

    6. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How, out of curiosity, will this miracle be achieved? What magic wand will the Fed wave in order to create these resources from midair?"

      They created 9 trillion in dark money during the bailout.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUiIjudvsLM

    7. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      Make it unconditional basic income. And opt-in, no one has to take it. Government and private businesses can hold challenges to stimulate individuals to innovate, but government doesn't require you to do anything.

    8. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      The private sector understands the alchemy of money creation, and creates at least an order of magnitude more money than governments do. The BIS reports that $76 trillion in OTC derivatives were created out of thin air by private entitites in 2013 alone. There is plenty of room for government to create the money for a basic income.

    9. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://stewartglass.net/readings/the_road_to_serfdom_in_cart.pdf

      Why ask him to think when you can give him a cartoon?

      BTW: I don't necessarily think a basic income can be any more counterproductive to the general welfare than quantitative easing. Both have the same effect on M3/the money supply. One is "trickle up" where price inflation is seen in commodities and food items. In the other case: wealthy billionaires won't necessarily buy more cheeseburgers, but they'll buy a nice well cooked steak. Demand for luxury goods and services are created(creating jobs in theory) vs. raising the price of goods.

      In practice: I don't think either one is especially great. One of the problems with giving poor people money is they don't necessarily spend it wisely. They tend to do stupid shit with money like buy cars and houses they can't afford, and then declare bankruptcy when their credit fuse burns up. This exacerbates market volatility vs. a proper oligarchy where the fascist dystopia is uniformly predictable.

    10. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by lgw · · Score: 1

      I always wonder why they limit their magic wand to a "basic" income. Why not instead pay everyone a billion dollars a year? I mean, if there's no downside to the Fed creating all this money, why be cheap?

      Creating more dollars without creating more goods and services improves nothing - why do people have a hard time with that idea?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    11. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by DraconPern · · Score: 1

      They can print more money. QEx!

    12. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Livius · · Score: 1

      Any many people are materially worse off because of it.

      The point of the currency manipulation was to make it less obvious.

    13. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Where exactly does this money come from? If the government simply prints it, congrats, you've just massively devalued the dollar through inflation. Anyone who works would have their income skyrocket because of this (in dollar amounts, not in purchasing power), and the net result would be that little would change in terms of real purchasing power. If you actually taxed the folks who worked to siphon money over to those that didn't, the increased taxes would reduce the incentive to work and improve one's economic outlook, and cause a significant drain on the economy. If you borrow the money, you can get a free ride for a few years until we can no longer afford to pay the interest, and then our economy would implode because of the inevitable default or hyperinflation cycle.

      You can't just supply the entire populous with an income out of thin air. Economics has it's own laws, just like physics, and you can't simply ignore them by creating value from nothing. Either you devalue money so much as to make it worthless, or you utterly destroy your national economy with massive increases in confiscation of personal income and/or property through taxation. Or, you borrow and just postpone the inevitable for a few years until interest payments catch up with you.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    14. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      But that 76 trillion doesn't create inflation, just like bailing out the 'creators' when those OTC derivatives fail doesn't. Only demand side fiat money creation causes inflation, not supply side fiat money creation. Deficits to expand the military don't cause inflation, just deficits to fund health care. /endsnark

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    15. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      If you actually taxed the folks who worked to siphon money over to those that didn't, the increased taxes would reduce the incentive to work and improve one's economic outlook, and cause a significant drain on the economy.

      Finland has a basic income. It has not destroyed their economy.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    16. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      A good point, but it's too early to say if it's sustainable, or what the longer-term results will be. We've seen a lot of very generous social-welfare programs enacted in European countries, and many of them have since had to roll back some of those programs once their economies dried up - usually resulting in massive protests and strikes over "austerity measures", or the collapse of economies of countries with politicians too cowardly to propose such measures.

      Granted, I think one advantage a basic income has rather than means-testing social programs is that a lot of bureaucratic overhead can go away - at least in theory. You shouldn't need as many civil servants to simply mail out checks, and a large number of various programs could be consolidated into this single program. The end result might cost more, but would likely put a greater ratio of tax money into the hands of people that would spend it rather than being filtered away as overhead inside government institutions, as social services overhead tends to be ridiculously high. The question is whether that cost is ultimately too high to be sustained by the working population - or rather, whether they feel the actual results are worth the inevitable costs.

      Either way, I say let Finland experiment with their economy and let the program simmer for a while before we evaluate the program based on actual results, rather than political promises and rosy forecasts.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    17. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The idea behind a basic income is that it's enough to live on but not enough to be particularly comfortable. This encourages people to work for a living, but doesn't actually require them to. This, in turn, gives more negotiating power to employees because an individual can always refuse offered jobs, and should lead to better treatment for individual workers. So runs the theory. Another advantage is that it would cushion economic down times for people, and keep a certain level of demand around to stimulate the economy. It would be a lot more efficient than welfare programs, which usually dedicate a lot of resources to preventing fraud (typically a lot more expense than some level of fraud would be).

      The idea of doing this at no cost is stupid, of course. It would be expensive, and would be financed by taxes or inflation. Under some circumstances, it might pay for itself in increased economic activity, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be expensive in general.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:"This problem of freeriders is something... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Chavs. IMO, that's a complete rebuttal of the idea. You'll end up with a complete culture of people who view working for a living as a scam, and even the outliers who actually want to work have no cultural preparation or basic education for. I grew up -until I was 10 or so - in a trailer park where a similar mentality prevailed. I wouldn't recommend it.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  7. Other considerations ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    The real problem in many cases is that there are too many options, too many different libraries, and too much code that does pretty much the same thing in slightly different ways. How can you standardize when there are so many different "standards" to choose from?

    This is actually a good thing, because it avoids a monoculture.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Other considerations ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good idea would come up with a search engine for problem classes, things that people have already solved that share the same problem space. Then you can search for what you need.

    2. Re:Other considerations ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is that you end up with everyone taking the #1 solution. Monocultures have a way of breaking badly.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:Other considerations ... by duck_rifted · · Score: 1

      I'm blowing mod points on this page for the first time ever to reply to you because you're projecting layperson search behavior onto programmers with no apparent justification. If a code class search engine with good dependency mapping and documentation existed, then the only monoculture required would be a documentation tool that allows programmers to submit their own code. Searchers would not, and in fact, *could not* blindly implement results because using those results requires studying the code itself.

      If you're worried that dominant libraries favored by the majority for a purpose would become more dominant, then that too seems like a leap to me. If somebody wants to use successful libraries, they already seek them out. And that's useful when one aims to work with others, especially online. If somebody wants to shop around, then they would still shop around with a search engine for source code.

      The fundamental difference here is in what is being searched for. When somebody uses Google to look up a fact or find some random web content they either already know what site they're querying such as in the case of Wikipedia or they have no idea what they'll find or whether it will satisfy the purpose of their search. Compare looking up an historic event to searching for a site licensed to rent a movie digitally. The more vague or crowdsourced the content, the more queries might have to be played with to find the right result. For example, searching for some relatively new meme that's referred to by different names might take some digging.

      But developers either already know exactly what they're looking for and will know it when they see it, they're looking for advice -- in which case they'll likely be pointed to dominant tools -- or they are exploring. In all three cases, searching more directly for code itself just cuts out time spent skimming websites and checking version numbers.

    4. Re:Other considerations ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I'm blowing mod points on this page for the first time ever to reply to you because you're projecting layperson search behavior onto programmers with no apparent justification.

      To many "coders" are just "google cut-n-paste" already.

      f a code class search engine with good dependency mapping anddocumentation existed

      If "good documentation" existed, you could already find the code via google. One of the big problems of software is that documentation, like maintenance, is not seen as much "fun" as developing the new shiny.

      And now, with apologies to MasterCard, "for the rest, there's Stack Overflow."

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    5. Re:Other considerations ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm blowing mod points on this page for the first time ever to reply to you because you're projecting layperson search behavior onto programmers with no apparent justification"

      Youre projecting some sort of other-than-human behavior on programmers for no apparent reason. Programmers ~are~ lay people, idiot.

  8. I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a little toddler I already developed signs of geekiness. As I grew older, my geekiness ballooned so much so that I could not, even if I want to, deny that in this life, I am a geek

    Now that I am old, as an old geek, I still think that what we geek do, what we truly enjoy doing, often goes counter to the outside rule

    That is why, when that guy is telling me (and other geeks) that we live by a "failed economic commons", hey, I am not surprised

    If we geeks are to live by a "successful economic commons" many of the geeky things that we do, and many of the geeky creations that we have created, would not exist

    The gist of the whole thing is this --- economy, whether it be "failed" or "successful" --- is in eye of the beholder

    One can say that the economy of a certain country/region is good --- but good for whom? For the general populace, or for the 0.1%?

    That is why, we geek don't give a flying fuck about the economy. We do what we do because we enjoy what we do. That is all

    If they (and when I say "they" I mean those who look down on the geeks) don't like it, they can go jump into the sea

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by jythie · · Score: 1

      Sadly I am out of mod points, but I think you hit the nail on the head. It is disingenuous to call something a failure when using criteria the people involved never intended or wanted. To use a car analogy, it is like calling a car for gear heads a failure because delivery companies are not using it. Yeah, if the goal was to build a delivery van they might have a point, but it is not the car`s fault they wanted to apply it elsewhere and it was a poor fit.

    2. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, he is wrong, but your feeling about the economy do not matter one way or another, it operates outside of your sentiment, a failing economy would not allow you to be a developer.

      Imagine if the economy was such that for you to be able to do all the 'geeky' stuff you do, you'd literally have to starve yourself to death and/or use up 99% of your normal sleeping time. I mean if you had no choice but to gather/hunt for food the entire day or otherwise you wouldn't survive, that would be the economy dictating to you that you cannot really do much of anything beyond just surviving.

      The economy as is allows people to spend their time however they feel like, some forego entertainment and leisure to work on their favourite pet projects. It's like telling a stamp collector that his hobby is a failed idea economically... he'd just laugh at the guy.

      You do what you have to do to survive in the economy, so you do care, you are just not necessarily aware of it, but everything you do in life is based on the health / state of the economy.

    3. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe - just maybe - the economy of free software is based on a different type of currency than what the Fed prints.

      Not everything in this Universe is based on Dollars, Pounds, and Euros.

      Heck, the Universe itself is a non-profit organization.

    4. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we want to ensure that everyone who works on something gets paid for it, then we have to make doing that thing really unpleasant for everyone, so that no-one in their right mind would do it without remuneration. Somehow, we need to figure out how to make writing software akin to pumping septic waste. Then the author's dreams will all come true. What a wonderful world it will be.

    5. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by blue+trane · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "I mean if you had no choice but to gather/hunt for food the entire day or otherwise you wouldn't survive, that would be the economy dictating to you that you cannot really do much of anything beyond just surviving."

      But hunter-gatherers had more leisure time than we do:

      Free from market obsessions of scarcity, hunters' economic propensities may be more consistently predicated on abundance than our own.

    6. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      Unless you're advocating a new form of Creationism that I'm not familiar with, the universe wasn't built from human labor. Software, on the other hand, is -- and that's why it costs money to make.

      Free software isn't free to make. There's a reason it's free as in libre but not necessarily free as in gratis.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    7. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the universe extracts the ultimate tax: entropy.

    8. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by FrankDrebin · · Score: 0

      This is one reason geekiness is actually evolutionary.

      --
      Anybody want a peanut?
    9. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by the+phantom · · Score: 2

      In hunter/gatherer societies, people typically have *more* leisure time than people in agrarian and industrial societies (where leisure time is understood to mean time that is not spent in the production or procurement of food and shelter). There are some developed nations---primarily in Europe---where people are beginning to approach the amount of leisure time that hunter/gatherers have. The nomadic lifestyle of a hunter/gatherer is simply not sustainable for a human population of 7 billion people; it has a certain brittleness with respect to natural disasters like a bad rainy season; and it doesn't provide the resources to maintain the standard of living that your average middle-class suburbanite has grown accustomed to, but you didn't make those arguments. ;)

    10. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      and you have computers and power to run them and the Internet?

      WTF?

    11. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      and they had computers and electric power and the Internet I presume?

    12. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Evidently you don't actually know how much a writer of documentation gets paid. Hint: It's not nearly as much as what a programmer with commensurate experience gets.

      That being said, I write because I like to, and because I've found ways to get paid enough doing it to keep a roof over my head and coffee beans for my grinder.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    13. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beutiful bro.

    14. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Don't make the statement if you're not prepared to address rebuttals. You don't get to cherry-pick your facts and pretend that other facts don't exist.

      BTW, you said previously,

      Imagine if the economy was such that for you to be able to do all the 'geeky' stuff you do, you'd literally have to starve yourself to death and/or use up 99% of your normal sleeping time.

      That sounds very much like how I had to live for several years whilst getting started in my present career.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    15. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      Look at just the last few years of Linux at all the guts being just ripped out rather than building on what was there, Pulse, KDE 4, Gnome 3, unity, systemd, why do you think every time it looks like Linux is gonna become mature and stable that some major subsystem gets ripped out and goes back to square 1?

      You hit the nail right on the head. It seems the Great New Thing in Linux is something for which there is no evident need, and often is undesirable in many ways, yet the desktop - even with a straight default install - is glitchy and rough in ways Windows (as much as I detest it) is not. The polish just does not go where it is needed. Who wants to detail someone else's car?

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    16. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by smallfries · · Score: 1

      I guess that you are talking national averages, but about 1/3 of my wage covers all my basic living costs so about 13hr/week of labour. I think the national average here would be about 1/2, or about 20hr/week. Did hunter/gatherers really have it that easy?

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    17. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      There weren't seven billion of them. The real challenge isn't working hard enough to survive as one of 200,000 hunter/gatherers in a stable population, it's in making it through the stabilizing process.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    18. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting AC since I've burned a couple of mod points on this discussion.

      Actually no, it does not cost anything to "make" free software, such as OpenOffice, LibreOffice, the Apache web server, FireFox, Linux, etc.

      There is a one-time cost of development, for sure. But once a new version is put on the Internet, the cost of acquisition is the minor expense involved in downloading and is borne by the end user, not by the producer. The producer does not have to recover any further costs.

      Often-- as with Apache, The GIMP (think Photoshop, with a stronger emphasis on web images and not so much on magazine pictures), or the many varieties of wiki engines-- the various producers do not care about recovering the development cost because they were going to make that piece of software anyway, to meet some need of their own. By contributing their work to FireFox or some other FOSS organization, they get to work on just the module they need while benefitting from all the work all the other contributers have done. Not having to repeat thousands of hours of development work that has been thoroughly tested is often more than enough compensation for the cost of developing and contributing their own module.

      There are no "free riders" in the FOSS economy. People who cannot code contribute in other ways. Typically what they give back costs them nothing since it is a byproduct of their usage. For instance, asking for help in how to do something provides feedback on where something could be made easier or some part of the documentation could be improved. Describing to a neighbor or classmate that you have found a FOSS package that works for you is word of mouth advertising, which is also contributing to the FOSS economy.

      "A penny saved is a penny earned": this is so true of FOSS. The money that is not paid in buying proprietary licenses allows those who use FOSS to participate more fully in the moneyed economy. Perhaps by buying more or better Christmas presents. Or by increasing stockholder dividends. So while FOSS itself is an excellent example of a gift economy, it also provides indirect benefits to the moneyed economies. And generally increases the true wealth of nations where it is available.

    19. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      You seem to be conflating open source with non-profit community-developed. I can't speak for Linux, but in the FreeBSD world a significant fraction of the developers are working on bits of the project in exchange for money, because it's cheaper for their employers to improve FreeBSD than it is for them to develop something bespoke.

      The guys at Netflix, for example, have a workload that involves sending 1MB chunks of data as fast as they can over the network. When they started, I think they could saturate a 10Gb/s ethernet link, but not two. Now, I don't know the exact numbers, but I think they're saturating one 40GB/s link and starting to look at how much of a bottleneck their storage is.

      The folks at Juniper have been working on turning some of the data types that the kernel exposes for network stack internals into opaque types so that they can have drivers for their stuff that are stable over lots of kernel revisions.

      A few people, including some people from iX Systems, have been improving the QA infrastructure so that soon on each commit we'll be able to automatically build the system, boot it in a VM and run regression tests. After that, it will step up to net booting some real machines and running performance regression tests (and booting some platforms like ARM and MIPS and running regression tests there).

      Lots of core infrastructure projects like this are done because the people who make money from the software existing need them to exist. Sure, they wouldn't be done for a toy project run by hobbyists that no one is using in production, but no big open source project fits that description (it's very hard to become big if you do).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    20. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      You are conflating Linux with the desktop environments that it supports. Don't do that. It just demonstrates how ignorant you are, and is rather annoying.

      Linux is not built like Windows. A Linux distro consists of its Linux kernel and one or more desktop environments supported by the kernel. I am currently running the Ubuntu Studio version using the XFCE desktop with elements from Gnome and KDE blended in. It works pretty well: several years now without any system crashes, has handled several full distro upgrades without any issues. I can't count how many times the Linux kernel has upgraded. The kernel upgrades install with no more disturbance than a message saying that the computer needs to reboot for the new stuff to become active.

      --
      Will
    21. Re: I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is our society happier with those things?

    22. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Your comments are a total non-sequitor. The myth that bushmen have a lot of free time is balanced against the fact that bushment live in what we would call poverty. They also live in their own filth and despoil their village untilt he point that it's uninhabitable and then they move on.

      Being a bushman comes with some really severe tradeoffs.

      > you'd literally have to starve yourself to death and/or use up 99% of your normal sleeping time.

      If you think you've ever had to live like this, you are probably just kidding yourself. A spoiled spooner that's upset that you actually had to WORK at some point.

      Even the IT sector benefits from the remnants of the labor movement.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    23. Re: I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aside from unnecessarily hurting the pride of tech writers, that was spot on.

    24. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhhh...you DID notice I singled out Linux and NOT BSD, right? I did this because as you pointed out BSD works differently, but so little is paid to BSD on the desktop its simply not worth mentioning in that space. Great for servers and firewalls though. This is also why I separate a FOSSie from a FOSS advocate, with many BSDers being the latter and many Linux users the former. The FOSS advocate can see there are places FOSS works well and places it doesn't and they aren't afraid of admitting the flaws in the ecosystem, a FOSSie will stick their fingers in their ears and scream shills,trolls,vampires while accusing you of being or working for Voldemort.

      And notice how I got modbombed for pointing out what should be common fucking sense? HUMANS ARE CREATIVE ANIMALS, full stop. Getting a person to create something NEW for free? Easy. getting them to spend their time fixing somebody else's bugs? Not happening. This frankly shouldn't have to be explained but since FOSSies still believe in communist utopias (look at how RMS squeed like a schoolgirl and gushed over Chavez and Castro) they refuse to accept the busted shitter....but as a wise Linux server admin I know said as he went out to buy a Macbook after getting his laptop shit on one too many times by poorly written patches "Linux doesn't get better it just gets different" and this is why Linux stability is still worse than Win2K on the desktop, why SOP for a Linux server is to strip out every package possible, because the second things start getting stable, where it looks like they'll have to spend their time on QC and bug fixing? KDE 4, Gnome 3, Pulse, Unity, systemd, a major subsystem will get ripped out and send Linux back a decade.

      Meanwhile I can take a copy of Win2K and take it from RTM to final patch without a single driver failure, same with XP,Vista, Win 7, is it magic? A conspiracy? Nope its the simple fact that MSFT doesn't rip out critical subsystems willy nilly or fuck up driver interfaces because a dev got bored. Just look at what has happened since the release of Win 7...KDE 4, Gnome 3, Pulse, Unity, systemd...that means a person using Linux for the same period that Win 7 has been used will have had no less than 3 major subsystems and their DE drop to alpha quality and why is that? The busted shitter. Its simply easier to get devs to make something new than fix what they have, its simply human nature and anyone who thinks different is fucking delusional.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    25. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I'm not advocating for a return to primitivism. I'm always surprised by the people who do...there's nothing stopping them. If you really think being a hunter/gatherer is a the bee's knees, go for it! The Australian outback, the deep forests of the pacific northwest...there's plenty of places you could still vanish into and never see another human being. I, however, will hunt and gather at the supermarket and sleep in my warm, soft bed.

      That said, I'm amused by this joke:

      An old Indian chief sits in his hut on the reservation, smoking a ceremonial pipe and eyeing two US government officials there to interview him.

      One government official asks, "Chief Two Eagles, you know the white man for 90 years - his wars and his technological advances, his progress, and the damage he does."

      The Chief nods in agreement.

      The official continues, "Considering all this, in your opinion, where does the white man go wrong?"

      The Chief stares at the government officials for over a minute and then calmly replies "When white man finds land, Indians are running it. No taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water, women do all the work, medicine man free, Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing with his friends, all night have sex ..."

      The chief leans back and smiles. "Only white man dumb enough to think he can improve system like that."

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    26. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by the+phantom · · Score: 1

      You are rebutting an argument that I did not make. I said that hunter/gathers generally have more leisure time. I did not claim that hunter/gatherers "have it easy." Note that I specifically attempted to rebut such arguments a priori: hunter/gatherer societies are vulnerable to natural disasters (and even minor disasters that probably wouldn't have much impact at all on an industrial society, such as a bad season for the pinon trees) and hunter/gatherers don't have the resources to live a modern lifestyle. They have more leisure time, though significantly fewer choices in how they spend it.

      As to your argument that only 1/3 of your wages cover basic living expenses: if you are spending 8 hours a day performing an activity that is used to pay for your food and shelter, that is time spend procuring food and shelter, whether or not you have an excess. If you can earn enough to feed yourself in 3 hours a day but don't have the option of heading home for another 5 hours, that isn't leisure time. If, on the other hand, you really do have the option to work fewer hours and choose not to, I congratulate you on finding a job that you enjoy spending your leisure time doing (not many of us are that lucky).

    27. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by phantomfive · · Score: 1
      From your article:

      Reports on hunters and gatherers of the ethnological present-specifically on those in marginal environments suggest a mean of three to five hours per adult worker per day in food production. Hunters keep banker's hours, notably less than modern industrial workers (unionised), who would surely settle for a 21-35 hour week.

      If you are willing to reduce your standard of living, you can easily have that much leisure time. Most people would rather work more, though. If you ever do reduce your hours, they will think you are lazy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    28. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Uhhhh...you DID notice I singled out Linux and NOT BSD, right? I did this because as you pointed out BSD works differently, but so little is paid to BSD on the desktop its simply not worth mentioning in that space.

      No, you made general statements about open source. You said Linux, but you then mentioned a bunch of projects that are part of the wider open source ecosystem. With regard to FreeBSD on the desktop, the FreeBSD Foundation funded much of the work to bring GPU support up to parity with Linux and iX Systems sells machines preinstalled with PC-BSD (FreeBSD plus some other stuff aimed at desktops) and pays most of their developers.

      Getting a person to create something NEW for free? Easy. getting them to spend their time fixing somebody else's bugs? Not happening.

      And that's where you go right back to your original false equivalence. The devs who are doing that are not doing it for free. They are paid. This is true for Linux, FreeBSD, or any other moderately large open source project. And they're paid because the people paying them benefit from the project being taken from hobbyist quality to professional quality.

      That's not even a new phenomenon. The original NFS is a good example: Sun hired ex-UCB people to work on BSD because they needed a decent OS to sell workstations. They released NFS as open source because they could sell more servers if everyone's clients used their protocol. No one was working for free.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    29. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by smallfries · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that I am rebutting a different argument. When you said that hunter/gathers generally have more leisure time I interpreted that as meaning "more than us". Which is exactly what I was disagreeing with.

      I don't spend 8 hours a day performing an activity that pays for my food and shelter: my wage is 3x my basic needs. So it takes me about 2.5hrs of work to do that. I do actually have a flexible work environment where I could stop at that point, but instead I stick around for another 5hrs and take home more cash. That is not an excess as you have phrased it - I can operate in other markets than basic needs and I am procuring funds for those.

      Also, I did not imply that you had claimed that hunter gatherers have it easy, although you may have been misled by my british turn of phrase. I would claim that 13-20hrs of work a week is having it easy, my question to you was whether or not that was true that hunter/gathers worked less than this? My assumption is that they would need more time than this to acquire food each week.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    30. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hunters were never "Free from market obsessions of scarcity," thats fucking nuts. Every season brings its own scarcity and supply, and the hunters had to adjust.

      This ridiculous fucking noble savage bullshit has got to stop. Modern homeless people also have roughly the same amount of leisure time as hunter-gatherers from your link - and modern homeless people still have more modern conveniences.

    31. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by the+phantom · · Score: 1

      Also, I did not imply that you had claimed that hunter gatherers have it easy, although you may have been misled by my british turn of phrase. I would claim that 13-20hrs of work a week is having it easy, my question to you was whether or not that was true that hunter/gathers worked less than this? My assumption is that they would need more time than this to acquire food each week.

      A typical person in a hunter/gatherer society spends (on average) less than four hours per day on subsistence activities (acquiring food, shelter, clothing, etc.).

    32. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by smallfries · · Score: 1

      Wow. Ok, now that is the kind of lifestyle that I'm looking for... as long as the four hours is coding :)

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    33. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by TopherC · · Score: 1

      I think what you're pointing out is really important from a broad economic perspective, since it's not always money that motivates us.

      But I also think that TFA calling the software economy a "failed" one is technically accurate. One perspective on this that I've been pondering for a long time is the idea of Pareto optimality and the free market hypothesis. The hypothesis is that a free (unregulated) market economy becomes Pareto-optimal. A market segment that becomes sub-optimal is called a "failed" market. I think it's by that definition that the software market fails. Not that it's completely broken, just sub-optimal. Traditionally this defines where a government can step in to impose regulations to, for example, deter monopolies or prohibit cartels.

      I am not an economist, and I cannot prove this, but I think that one of the assumptions underlying the free market hypothesis is that any good has a non-zero production cost. In hand-waiving terms, the concept of scarcity underlies economic theory. But a lot of our economy today is in goods that have either zero production costs, or production costs that are dwarfed by development costs. Software is the prime example, but music, movies, news, and more are also examples of this. There are other industries that are in a gray area, like microchip manufacturing, where development costs and capital investments are huge.

      Pareto efficiency, as I understand it, can be thought of as a test of whether or not at any snapshot of time a redistribution of goods could theoretically be made in such a way as to make folks, on average, happier. Again I'm hand-waiving, and IANAE, etc. But if software is produced and distributed at nearly zero cost, then by giving more people who want the software, but not badly enough to pay for it, a free copy, or a free site license, we make some people happier without taking away from anyone else. Remember this is a momentary redistribution-thought-experiment, not a sales model. So any kind of commercial software, it seems to me, fails the test for Pareto optimality, and therefore the software market has "failed."

      I'm not saying that commercial software is bad or evil or even unhelpful, just that a traditional free market economy does not, can not, regulate the software industry in an efficient way. We can do better. I don't know how, but I'm pretty sure there's significant room for improvement. In a sense, the success of free software (forgive the sloppy term) is a proof of this. I also tend to think of software that's paid for by advertisement revenue (free apps, web sites, all of Google) as another case study of a failed market. But that's a tangent.

      I really like the idea of Snowdrift.coop. I like that they take a game theory approach to this problem and have what seems like a reasonable solution. I don't, however, think it solves the problem entirely by recovering an efficient software market. Their primary case study, OpenSSL, is not the kind of software that is by itself innovative or disruptive. It needs to work and work well, but it is a solution to a common and well-known problem. One of the key features of a free market is that it allows and even encourages failure. I don't (yet) see how the Snowdrift.coop concept will similarly encourage experimentation and failure.

      To touch back on your point that we are not entirely motivated by money -- Yes of course that's true and it's important to not feel governed by the economy. If our basic needs are met then often we can focus on higher goals and motivations. But I'd still like to see a world where software and other industries like news media can thrive on equal footing with the more traditional industries. As these newer industries continue to grow, I think we need for them to be efficiently regulated.

      If I were clever enough, I would like to be able to propose some modification to a market economy that can generalize to industries with zero production costs. I've thought a lot about this in spare moments here and there, but I haven't gotten anywhere. Has anyone else?

    34. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Riiiight because all these SERVER COMPANIES are gonna spend tens of millions of dollars on shit that no server is ever gonna run....pull this leg it plays jingle bells!

      NEWS FLASH 97c of every $1.00 is spent on the SERVER SIDE when it comes to Linux, the desktop, where shit is constantly being ripped out thanks to busted shitter? if its lucky it gets the scraps. hell even Shuttleworth has quit wasting money on the desktop which is why Canonical is desperately throwing shit at the wall to find a working business model, yet you think this magical money tree if paying for all this work on the desktop, even though no corp gives a wet fart about Linux desktops....LOL!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    35. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      I have always respected your opinions but if you think I had any of what I have handed to me on a silver platter then you are very much mistaken. I've had opportunities and even a bit of help along the way, sure, and I'm grateful for these. In particular I'm grateful to a couple of folks I met online who encouraged me and even gave a chance to prove myself, way back when. But I'm the one who put in the work to take advantage of those opportunities. I'm the one who spent 3-4 years sleeping on other pepole's floors and living on ramen and PBJs, and keeping my nose to the grindstone 70+ hours a week to make it happen.

      I had other, easier opportunities when I was younger, which I wasted. Had I been a little wiser then, things would have been much simpler later on. Well, paying for that fuckup was part of the overhead, but I pay for that I did.

      The really good part about it is that I can look at what I've got now and know that I *earned* it, and even if I end up homeless again tomorrow, that fact is something that nobody can take away from me, not even the All-Knowing Jedidiah.

      Just because someone doesn't piss and moan constantly about the adversities they've faced doesn't mean they've not had them.

      Cheers.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    36. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      No, the universe extracts the ultimate tax: entropy.

      And... We have a winner!

    37. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3-4 years of people providing you a floor to sleep on sounds like an awful lot of support to me!
      See, this is the problem. Suddenly you've gone from getting 3-4 years of help from strangers to help you make it to:
      I *earned* it, all by myself, it was me, me, me. I did it all on my own.

      What happened to those people who gave you a place to sleep? You didn't need any of that help?
      Then go back and pay them the rent you owe them.

      Oh, and congratulations on making it through the lean years. It's always tough work.
      Just take a second look at the gratitude angle huh.

    38. Re:I am no economist, but as a geek ... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      It's been said that no man is an island.

      The point I was trying to make is that I was apparently being mischaracterised as a spoilt rich kid who'd had everything handed to him on a silver platter, not that I'm some sort of superhero. I'm neither of those.

      I've tried to pay back those who've helped me, but I've lost contact with most of them (easy to do after a decade or two, when you've wound up living on the other side of the world), and some of them are no longer around. So now I try to do the same for others.

      And I've already admitted that one of the reasons--possibly THE reason--I ended up in the bad state I was in was due to my own mistakes. Quite a lot of them, actually, including doing some shit that was just plain wrong. Some of those things I think I've paid for by now, others maybe not. We'll see.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  9. All goes according to plan by Sneftel · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you don't want free riders, don't make free software.

    You get to choose your license. You don't get to complain that people are following it.

    --
    The opinions stated herein do not necessarily represent those of anybody at all. Deal with it.
  10. Author is proposing the Chinese solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not knocking it, it's the model that China has used for the past three millenia and it's worked reasonably well for them.

    However, we do things differently in the West, particularly in the US. We're Adam Smith (the 1776 one, not the modern day popular author) guys and gals, moderately distrustful of government and the people who populate it. And no more trusting of committees such as the ones that the author is proposing. These are like the industrial consortium that pop up all the time, ilke OpenStack. Want to bet your company on those? Good luck.

  11. Misses the obvious, likely for dishonest reasons by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Most of this stuff is done by people who have jobs, it's just not their core business to sell tiny little improvements that nobody is going to buy individually.
    Since it misses what could be discovered within a few minutes of inquiring into the subject I think the post is designed either to push an agenda or to start an argument.

  12. Probably for the best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine how the Open Source community would be if everyone using a tool *did* contribute to or fork the tool.

    I use KDE all the time, but I know I'm shit at C++. You won't see me polluting the codebase with my awful code, or spamming the design forums whenever I see something I would do differently. The Linux community is better off for it too. :)

  13. No, it's not crazy by ras · · Score: 2

    Obviously, it would be crazy to staff such critical projects largely with a handful of unpaid volunteers working in their spare time.

    The people who do this have a number of reasons. Some do it open source software garners job offers. Some do it because they or the businesses they work for need free software to exist, and it's a self perpetuating loop - the more free software there is the more people contribute to it, so the more they have to chose from. For some it's like attending church - it feels right. For some it's a nice social group to be in. None of these reasons means they or the system they contribute to are crazy.

    As for the free loaders - without legions of these "free loaders" free software would not exist. Few would bother to put the effort into Linux, or X, or Debian if there weren't legions of users out there to test it, and give feedback, find bugs, suggest improvements. They are a necessary part of the system. A system that for all its faults, works as least as well as any other commercial way of developing software if you go by deployments.

    1. Re:No, it's not crazy by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1
      The "freeriders" in the summary don't include those that "test it, and give feedback, find bugs, suggest improvements". If someone's doing that, then they're a helpful part of the development process. The text in the summary that describes freeriders/freeloaders is:

      A huge number of people and businesses ostensibly benefit from these projects, and the vast majority are freeriders that contribute nothing to their development.

      Obviously, that can't be talking about people that submit bug reports and suggestions.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    2. Re:No, it's not crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about people who use it but find no bugs to report or features to suggest? Since it worked for them they're not helpful members of the community?

    3. Re:No, it's not crazy by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      Well, they could provide a marketing benefit via word-of-mouth, of course. But what software do you know that's really bug-free? And anyhow, you can't say that a user like that isn't *more* of a freeloader than someone who at least gives some kind of positive feedback to the developer (well, you can, but I'd disagree with you).

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  14. GPL by Meneth · · Score: 1

    How about you use the GNU General Public License? It has strong copyleft, which prevents people from distributing closed-source software that uses your library.

    1. Re:GPL by Teckla · · Score: 1

      How about you use the GNU General Public License? It has strong copyleft, which prevents people from distributing closed-source software that uses your library.

      It may also result in less contributors / contributions. The company I work for contributes to open source, but only to open source with liberal licenses (e.g., BSD). The GPL is strictly off limits.

  15. Legacy Support by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    Part of the problem is a lack of support by OS makers for legacy software. We've solved a huge number of problems, many times, but those tools are destroyed when the OS makers fail to support legacy software so we keep reinventing the wheel, badly.

  16. It's not just about collaboration or economics by Reibisch · · Score: 2

    Don't confuse the issue by pretending it's all about collaboration and economics of software. It doesn't make sense to try to shoehorn my software idea into an existing framework exclusively due to price and availability. Just because there's a square peg available for free doesn't mean that it'll fit a round problem, even if a square solution may take longer.

    I predominately work in computational analysis and have spent a significant portion of my career trying to figure out physical problems (first in video games and now in engineering analysis), particularly in the finite element/CFD domain. That makes OpenFOAM is a classic example for me -- it's the benchmark for open source CFD analysis. But I'm still employed at an engineering firm developing our own numerical analysis tools.

    OpenFOAM is quite good at a very small subset of what it claims to do, but it doesn't do *everything* well. Unfortunately, the framework is sufficiently mature at this point that trying to fork it and address those flaws would be a colossal undertaking. This means that for many toolsets, starting from the ground up is simply a more attractive alternative. Could we reuse a few elements deep in the integrators? Maybe, but those would come with their own baggage.

  17. Pay me for my hobby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a Linux/Unix/sometimes-Windows admin, and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of open source projects start as hobbies. That they are useful for people other than their creators is nice, but I don't complain to my friends that no one pays me for playing RPGs. I've been post-beta testing AD&D for decades. Where's my money?

    1. Re:Pay me for my hobby by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I've been a beta tester for decades, I dont get money. but I do get to shape the game, Hell one of my reports and recommended changes ended up in the game.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Pay me for my hobby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sad. I find most people ignore about half the rules and play their own way.

      With a creative DM, it's just as much if not more fun.

      Sad because likely no one is following your rule. We just tear out the page if it sucks.

    3. Re:Pay me for my hobby by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Actually everyone uses my rule, It's a key part of fire damage.

      Sad, that people like you cant grasp the ruleset well enough so you just fudge it. Sad.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  18. Misses the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > This problem of freeriders is something that has plagued open source software for a very long time.

    The "economic model" of open software already accounts for this. You want the bugs in OpenSSL fixed? Fix them yourself or pay someone else to do it! Or you have to wait for someone else to do the same. The economic incentive is there. You arent paying for it = you dont value it. Free software gives you the benefits of its software, but it is very clear that it is "as is without the implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for purpose."

    For the devs working on it "for free." That's their choice.

    For the people relying on it without contributing? That's their risk.

    Works as intended.

  19. Chiusano has some suggestions by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

    Who's this Johnny-come-lately Chiusano guy? What happened to Bennett Haselton?

    1. Re:Chiusano has some suggestions by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Who's this Johnny-come-lately Chiusano guy? What happened to Bennett Haselton?

      Please be careful .. when you say Bennett's name three times in a row, one of his articles magically appears on the front page.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    2. Re:Chiusano has some suggestions by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Bennett Haselton, Bennett Haselton, Bennett Haselton.

  20. The real solution is really much simpler. by Narcocide · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Large companies need to stop spending boat loads of money on buying overpriced, re-released commercial operating system and productivity software that changes absolutely nothing useful about business functionality and spend maybe say, 10% of the money from what that budget would have been on donating to or contributing to software projects that the infrastructure's critical functionality relies upon.

    Seriously. The money would go further and the software would last longer and everyone would get a lot more actual work done. Every time you buy a new version of Windows its like you're paying to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    And don't fucking reply to me saying shit like "durrr, but OpenSSL got hacked and doesn't deserve to have had more money." Maybe that's true, but probably not. Even if it were true, above, I said donating or contributing, as in - spend your own company resources auditing the software if you don't trust it. If you find enough vulnerabilities to distrust the people who make it, then FORK IT OR PAY SOMEONE TO DO SO. The bottom line is, economically even in a worst-case scenario its still cheaper than every single company rolling their own from scratch, or every single company buying the same software over and over again made (perhaps not any more securely or competently) by some completely unaccountable, inauditable closed-source company.

    1. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So. Fucking. Dumb.

      Open source software is full of shit. There are very few projects that are well written and actually useful, the vast majority of them are a plague of horrible coding. You totally don't understand the principles of BUSINESS. I'm not going to open source my software so that my competitors can use it against me. I am in the business of making money, not contributing to your open-flavor-of-the-day-better-than-thou-bullshit-philosophy.

      And there is nothing wrong with multiple philosophies. You follow yours, I'll follow mine. We don't need a homogeneous ecosystem of software, it's better to have competition.

    2. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Problem: when companies buy off the shelf, they get something NOW. As soon as they spend the money, they get a product. If they invest, they get a product... when? Next week? Next month? Next year? This is why most places don't develop, they just buy and stack. It costs more most of the time, but you always get SOMETHING.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    3. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They get the product now, if you're talking about Linux, OpenSSL, LibreOffice, etc. The whole point is to contribute to extant projects so they're better, not simply throw money in the air and pray that something useful comes out. There's also organizations like the Apache Software Foundation which function as an umbrella for many subprojects to be assured to some extant that your money is going towards many different areas that are needed.

      PS - The real problem is that companies have people who were trained in Windows or Macintosh and refuse to switch or work with other companies that send documents in a specific format and there's an unwillingness to either (1) negotiate towards a more neutral format or (2) to just have a few legacy computers that deal with those documents. In short, there's little will to listen to the IT guys tell you of a way to save millions if it includes inconvenience for the boss. Because the boss doesn't see a direct gain. Just like contributing to all these projects doesn't see a direct gain. Yet buying software off the shelf, they see a direct gain. While paradoxically getting said software for free and it's suddenly no longer a gain because it didn't directly cost anything.

      Put another way, when you buy lemons, you make lemonade. When someone offers you lemons for free, you just avoid them. You certainly don't think of contributing to the lemonade fund, even if it's a cheaper way to get lemonade. And that's the "failed economics" of it because you can't convince enough people to voluntarily do the right thing. This is also, btw, why we have government based charity through taxation because no enough people volunteer directly. Although, I shudder to think of government funded software as it'd either turn into an incarnation of the NSA or it'd be like NASA and the NSF.

    4. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Did you actually bother to read what you responded to?

      He said... wait for it... absolutely NOTHING... about open-sourcing your closed software.

      And plenty of businesses make perfectly good money creating and maintaining Open Source software. I think I'm qualified to make this statement, since I work for one of them. In fact, it's one of the top half from this list of the world's 10 largest vendors of software. And they don't pay me in play money, either.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    5. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      C-class decides where to spend the money. So they decide to give it to other C-class - as most of commercial company money goes to its own C-class. It all works in reciprocity. Why C-class should give away money to some plebs instead?

    6. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by g4sy · · Score: 1

      If you have a business I'm guessing you have a blog, a website etc etc. I'm guessing you use openSSL and a myriad of other open source projects. His point was: keep making money off of your closed source product (great! good for you), but the software that you use which has good open source options, use them and donate a bit of money if they provide you value. I'm a businessman and I can figure out value for money, so you should give it a try. Also, I have morals.

      --
      somewhere, on a Big Red Sign:
      if(color==blue){speed--;}
    7. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows lets you increase productivity through MS Word, MS Outlook, and MS Excel. Outlook is far, far ahead of the other email systems even with its issues. Microsoft integrates its produces well and that integration brings businesses real benefits.

      The main software waste is in database solutions and document management solutions. Basically when anything advertises itself as a solution you should tread carefully.

      Furthermore, almost every company doesn't upgrade every time Windows has a new release. Most companies went from Windows XP to Windows 7. That's one upgrade in the past decade. OSes are one of the smallest expenses. Do you do anything with finances at a company? Please stop letting your hatred of Windows blind you.

    8. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time you buy a new version of Windows its like you're paying to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

      You're trolling hard, yet you just gave us the most fitting description for just about every Linux distro released in the last 15 years.

    9. Re:The real solution is really much simpler. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Large companies spend money on commercial software because it works for them.

      Most companies aren't based on software, and therefore what they want to do is pay the minimum they need to get something good enough, and that "good enough" needs to be assured. Computer systems are normally a cost center, not a strategic advantage.

      Microsoft's big advantage here is the assurance of good enough, and the general acceptance that it's good enough. Free/Open Source software may be good enough. It may be better than commercial. That still doesn't matter for most people, since it isn't necessarily good enough. LibreOffice is a very impressive office suite, but it's not a drop-in replacement for Microsoft Office. A company that uses LibreOffice needs to make allowances for that, and provide Microsoft Office where necessary. Microsoft Office runs on Microsoft Windows, so if a company is to use Linux on the desktop they need to have fairly sophisticated software procurement, and this simply isn't worth it to most companies. The savings are not all that much, and the potential downside is serious.

      Moreover, it's a lot safer for a manager or CIO to mandate Microsoft. If problems arise, the manager deals with Microsoft, and is seen as handling the situation as well as can be. With a Free/Open Source installation, if something goes wrong, the manager is seen as having taken a risk that went bad. (Cf. the old "Nobody got fired for buying IBM" for the same reasons.) Microsoft is the safe way for both the company and the person setting the software environment, and in an environment where safety is much more important than opportunity the company will go Microsoft.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  21. Re:Misses the obvious, likely for dishonest reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Since it misses what could be discovered within a few minutes of inquiring into the subject I think the post is designed either to push an agenda or to start an argument.

    It's pushing an agenda... it's pimping some start-up website for "matching pledges" or some such nonsense.

  22. Your fixation is not my fixation. by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    Don't expect me to work on your favored project.

  23. A Sense of Community by JonathanR · · Score: 1

    Not everything boils down to rational economics. People do lots of things voluntarily, without expectation of immediate financial gain.

    The other issue with infrastructure type software (viz. OpenSSL) is that once created, they only occasionally require modification. It isn't a full time job. It'd be better managed by some interested custodians in their spare time (or rather; in time they choose to allocate to the pursuit); than for the software to be owned and managed by some organisation which assigns square pegs to round holes in order to get some half-arsed patches written and out "on time and within budget".

  24. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

    When money is involved, the question that comes to mind is "who should be in charge?"
    There's a surprisingly consistent answer to this question.
    I hear it a lot, from a lot of different people and that answer is "I should".

    Snowdrift describes a way to raise funds.
    It might even be more effective at raising funds.
    But I see nothing that promotes spending those funds wisely.

  25. Cause: Computers are Stupid by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    The real problem is that software is bunches of little idiot savants glued together. They do their known role well but ONLY their known role. They are not flexible and have no common sense to adapt to new situations. They have to have an exacting or pre-known environment.

    When we try to make software more flexible, it becomes unpredictable, often backfiring. Often it's better to keep it narrow and crash rather than have it "guess" and do something wrong because you may end up with a million wrong results before you catch it.

    I remember a story about military battle simulation software being built in the early days of OOP. An Australian company wanted a customized version for Australia, so they asked the vendor to add Kangaroos to the simulation.

    Rather than code up a Kangaroo from scratch, which would take a while, the developers made the Kangaroo class inherit from the already built "Human" class. It all worked fine until a group of simulated Kangaroo's were spooked by explosions and whipped out weapons and started fighting back. The "Human" class was tuned for military simulations, not general animals because that wasn't the vendor's original goal.

    The story may be an urban myth, but it illustrates some of the pitfalls of "reuse". Unless you have full knowledge of what you are reusing, you may end up reusing unexpected and inappropriate sub-features.

    It's probably an undeniable rule of the universe that you have to balance predictability against flexibility. No free lunch, at least not until "true" AI comes along such that software won't make stupid guesses anymore; but then we'd all be obsolete.

    1. Re:Cause: Computers are Stupid by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      It all worked fine until a group of simulated Kangaroo's were spooked by explosions and whipped out weapons and started fighting back.

      That was rather silly, only Dropbears do that.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    2. Re:Cause: Computers are Stupid by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Dropbears are truly terrifying.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  26. Summary, or tl;dr by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article is long and poorly organized (that is, the organization is stream of conscious writing like most bloggers; he goes off into a mini-rant about how much he hates CSS/HTML, for example). Here is a summary, as well as I can understand it:

    1) A new non-profit is trying to make it easy to fund open-source software, with a new donation method. You can donate, but your donation doesn't go through until ten (or X) other people donate the same amount.

    2) This will increase funding for open source projects because:
    * Companies don't want to fund open source if someone else will do it.
    * It will be cheaper TCO for companies to fund open source projects they use. For example, if OpenSSL had been given more money, they would have fewer bugs (probably by rewriting everything in Erlang; really, that's what he said).

    That is literally it. In all 2000 words he wrote, I cannot find another single point that supports his main thesis, that the new non-profit will increase funding for open source-projects. He however did spend a lot of words explaining that popular open source projects should get more money from the companies that use them, so that's something.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Summary, or tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ten (or X)

      Slashdot doesn't support Unicode, so we are going to push for Roman Numeral support now?

    2. Re:Summary, or tl;dr by smallfries · · Score: 1

      Nice summary, much clearer than the original.

      There seems to be a basic mismatch between the "problem" and the "solution". Most of the lead-in talks about corporate financing, and companies free-loading without paying for development. Well, in that world the funding distribution is from Extremistan (i.e it is probably a power-law distribution). So most of the money is held in pledges that unmatched by ten peers. The matching model only makes sense in Mediocrastan (i.e the roughly a uniform distribution) where the majority of the pledges would be matched.

      So let's say there is a big super important project and one million individuals put up their $1 pledges. There is also a company that wants/needs the results and is willing to put up $1 million to get it done. Sadly they are limited to $1 and the other $999,999 cannot be spent.

      I don't think that a ransom-ware model for open-source is a good idea at all, but the author really needs to rethink exactly which model they use. Or to phrase that in the author's own language "carefully considerating the underlying game theory and doing a bit of mechanism design leads us to much better equilibria".

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    3. Re:Summary, or tl;dr by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I really don't think there is any way to get most companies to pay for the open source software they use other than a bigger stick. Making it a legal requirement. I say that having worked at companies that happily use open source projects.

      If a company selects open source code, it's already fills the company's needs. Paying money won't get them anything more at that point.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Summary, or tl;dr by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I really don't think there is any way to get most companies to pay for the open source software they use other than a bigger stick. Making it a legal requirement.

      That won't work either; they'll just chose a proprietary solution if they have to pay anyway, because then when something goes wrong they can throw up their hands and make excuses. Then the CEO runs the company into the ground, but not before jumping off and floating safely to land with his golden parachute... Lather, rinse, repeat.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Summary, or tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I really don't think there is any way to get most companies to pay for the open source software they use other than a bigger stick. Making it a legal requirement."

      Yes, lets make a law that says you have to pay for free software. We'll even come up with a word for the new non-free software that is free but you have to pay for - we'll call it "commercial".

  27. That's why GPL is necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While people yell it's too offensive and impossible to get success at business (an very common opinion I've heard so many times), it at least makes the game much fair via requesting you pay for your freedom. For other licenses I think they work "well" is only because they welcome people to pillage their work as the article reveals, so sorry I don't feel sorry for those projects adopted such licenses and claim they're more friendly toward business.

  28. best for return by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Red Hat

  29. Freeriders? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

    It would seem that if your business has an interest in the direction that something like OpesnSSL is going, then said business will provide developers to work on it. While there are always going to be freeriders, they don't cost you any more to the develop the software than if there were not. On the other hand, if you owned the software instead of relying on the community to do the brunt of the development work for you, then you would be in a position to sell it to the supposed freeloaders. Of course, your costs would go up to develop it totally in house and there is no guarantee they would pay versus going elsewhere. It seems like everybody wins with the current system.

  30. Thoughtstuff is a nonlinear space by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 2

    Software is thought-stuff as Brooks famously put it, and it lives in a multidimensional nonlinear space. Just because two programmers are implementing the same thing sitting next door to each other doesn't always mean they're mucking in the darkness, looking for a great software sage to show them how to write reusable code. Maybe one of them is coding for speed, the other for memory footprint, and the third for prettyness. You can't have one set of libraries do all three for you without effectively implementing it three times and giving them each the option. Just because software looks close, doesn't always mean there's a short path to get it to where you need it.

  31. What "Problem?" F/OSS works. by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    After working on a Windows system at my job, using my Linux computer is like a breath of fresh air.

    Where is the problem? F/OSS has been around for decades.

    The article sounds like somebody pissing and moaning about the foss model.

  32. He doesn't get it by msobkow · · Score: 2

    I work on my pet project (http://msscodefactory.sourceforge.net) because it's a fun challenge I set myself many years ago. Whether others use it is irrelevant. Whether I ever make money off it is irrelevant. There is only one thing that matters to me:

    Having fun coding.

    That's it. Beginning and end of story. I work on it for fun.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  33. Get thee to a nunnery! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Listen whore. No one is forcing you to offer your wares for free.
    Perhaps you should seek advice from a skull.

  34. failed or just different economics? by plopez · · Score: 2

    The benefits of open source softwares and freeware are incomprehensible those brainwash that greed is good or even that only through greed can come good. The open source projects have created enabling technologies such as httpd, TCP/IP, html, mosaic, etc. Without those technologies the economic booms circling the globe would probably be impossible. It created a feedback loops which into the private sector which then creates jobs and technologies which then help open source projects.

    Calling those effects a failure is just silly.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:failed or just different economics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is misleading an inaccurate.

    2. Re:failed or just different economics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The benefits of open source softwares and freeware are incomprehensible those brainwash that greed is good

      "Idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hkind and generous souls are letting me use their software perfectly good software for zero money." Seems quite comprehensible to me.

    3. Re:failed or just different economics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If youve got some weird fucking religious belief that working and making things for free is "good" and that people who follow their self interest are somehow "bad", then dont bitch and complain when people who do not share your weird fucking religious belief take advantage of you.

    4. Re:failed or just different economics? by plopez · · Score: 1

      If you've got some weird fucking religious belief that working and making things for free is "bad" and that people who follow their self interest are somehow "good", then don't bitch and complain when people who do not share your weird fucking religious belief empower you.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  35. missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a support engineer (supporting engineers, not end-users!) I think that the problem with his premise is that he woefully underestimates the value of actual fielded use of a software package. I get it... developers are important. But no one knows how well a bridge works until the cars drive over it, AND an unexpected storm hits it and things still remain standing. Software weathers many more unexpected storms than a bridge does. Worse yet, they're frequently malicious, targeted storms.

    No matter how much engineering and how much testing goes into a project, you don't really know how stable it is until it's used and tested and cracked and fixed.

    Packages like OpenSSL got the mind-share, and yeah, they got cracked. And they got fixed. That is the point TFA misses. All the 'freeloaders' and the contributors are all yielding the benefits of the target that the freeloaders provided.
    And it's much more hardened for the efforts of both the devs and the users! (and strangely the crackers, too!)

    We only know what works on the long term by putting it to use. And finding what breaks. And fixing it. So starting from scratch is an exercise in redundancy.

     

  36. How many can work on OpenSSL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OpenSSL was brought up as an example. So combine advanced networking with cryptography. I studied networking in university, and also cryptography. The main developers of OpenSSL are mostly PhD's because that's what you need to work on OpenSSL effectively. Its like this: there is a common story that "Any kid on the street can download and hack the Linux kernel". Well its true that any kid can download the source. You can tinker with the source, but unless you know advanced C programming, and have good understanding of operating system design (beyond an undergraduate degree operating systems course), they you won't be doing very much. There are many levels of people that you have to get through to get changes accepted, and something useless won't get past step 1. And that's the point. Some projects are more complicated, and you won't get a huge number of people on some projects because you are going places that not a lot of people can go.

  37. What is the complaint? by kwbauer · · Score: 1

    The guys that argue that everything should be free are now complaining that they aren't getting paid? That is how I interpret this. And it is hilarious.

  38. Economics of FOSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When thinking about the economics of FOSS the first thing to note is that the 'marginal cost' of another user is zero. Immediately a 'tragedy of the commons' problem is therefore impossible (you can't ruin the commons by overusing it because your use in no way impeds my ability to use it too, which is the definition of the tragedy of the commons).

    There are some people trying to think through what zero marginal cost of use means for understanding the economics of FOSS, and standard economic arguements do not apply. I don't know much of what they have come up with but suffice to say a number of things look different (I am an economist, but different field of econ). Given just how well FOSS has done in creating open standards and common libraries the free rider problem, while it may exist, is clearly minor.

    That said the snowdrift.coop idea, plugging which is really the point of the whole TFA, does sound like it might be a nice idea.

  39. Disagree by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 1

    The large companies I have worked for tend to PURCHASE supported free software from Red Hat, SuSE, Oracle (even if it's a clone of Red Hat), IBM, etc. Indirectly this means that they end up paying for the development of free software since these open source companies all PAY their employees many of whom write code that gets licensed under the GPL and contributed as open source. All you need to do to verify this it look at the contributions to the kernel or many of the key Linux subsystems to see the bulk of the contributions are coming from RH, SuSE, IBM, etc. (Why do you think SCO sued IBM for copyright infringement for IBM's contributions to the Linux kernel?)

    Most companies are not and don't want to be in the software business. Software development isn't even close to what they do. They are quite happy to pay for software that may or may not be open source. If it is open source, they want the same level of support (or better) as they get with their closed source vendors. While they may not be contributing code, they are paying the salaries of people who write open source software as their full time job by buying this support.

    The person who claims that open source is failing due to "free riders" and "volunteer maintainers" hasn't looked at how open source development works. Hell, even back when classic programs like awk and grep were developed and circulated in the old Unix community it was through /usr/contrib the bulk of the developers were professional software developers. These programs (and many more) were developed by software professionals who chose to make them available to others rather than sell them (for a variety of reasons).

    Yeah, there are a lot of pieces of open source that were developed and are maintained by volunteers. There's nothing wrong with that and, for quite a few years, open source has had fewer errors and has been far higher quality than the equivalent closed source programs. I'm not arguing that the OpenSSL flaw isn't serious. It is and it needs to be fixed but a certain closed source software vendor seems to patch a dozen equivalent flaws each month. I'd hardly call the OpenSSL flaw a reason to condemn the open source development model.

    Cheers,
    Daver

    --
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
    Ben
  40. personal FOSS economies by snadrus · · Score: 1

    I open source as many parts of my paid projects as i can so that I'm not forced to reinvent the same wheel i made through a previous employer.

    This makes me more productive perceptually since i bring value from my previous positions. Others could as well, but aren't as versed with my creations as i am.
    So why do my current employers give to my next? It's a perk choosing them nothing.

    --
    Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
  41. not so free by Tom · · Score: 1

    he vast majority are freeriders that contribute nothing to their development

    For a lot of software, this simply isn't true. The millions of installs that don't pay a developer to work on the code still provide test environments, installed base to make the product popular and various other advantages. Very few of the highly successful Free Software projects would be where they are today if only people who contribute to their development had been allowed to use them.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  42. Hedge funds devote more resources? by lippydude · · Score: 1

    "Various hedge funds and investment banks likely devote more resources to getting trade times down by a few milliseconds (including building a straighter fiber-optic cable between Chicago and NY) than the sum total value of all developer time devoted to to every open source project ever, since the dawn of software."

    My understanding that most of the software used in these trading platforms is heavly borrowed fron Open Source. They're quite happy to use it, but not so happy to contribute it back to the community.

    Michael Lewis: Did Goldman Sachs Overstep in Criminally Charging Its Ex-Programmer?

    '(At Serge’s trial Kevin Marino, his lawyer, flashed two pages of computer code: the original, with its open-source license on top, and a replica, with the open-source license stripped off and replaced by the Goldman Sachs license.)'

  43. Pay for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So basically, free software should only be free to those that contribute?
    So you "pay" for "free" software by contributing.

  44. Just a kickstarter article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was in the first paragraph. The rest is just uninformed griping that doesn't contribute to the current understanding of the problem.

  45. Perfectly competitive goods and economic pricing by erikscott · · Score: 1

    In market-based economies, pricing of goods depends on fixed and marginal costs. Perfectly competitive (i.e., totally equivalent goods, completely interchangable with each other) cannot be priced above the marginal cost of producing another unit of it (in the long run, at least). Generating pricing power requires differentiation.

    Software that is a commodity cannot be priced above its marginal cost. The marginal cost of another OpenSSL download is about zilch. If there was an efficient market able to make micropayments, market balance could be restored. As it is now, it's a hobby activity for individuals and a cost of doing business for large companies.

    I would argue that editors, OS kernels, and compilers are, at this point, commodities. Obviously commercial offerings are differentiated just enough to generate some pricing power, and that suggests that Open Source offerings at least theoretically could (dual open/commercial licenses, like Qt in the past), but I would argue this is a temporary market inefficiency.

    Incidentally, the classic way to make money giving away software was to then sell the consulting services around it.

  46. moron alert by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

    This problem of freeriders is something that has plagued open source software for a very long time.

    Um, no, it hasn't. Software distribution is essentially costless at this point and as such freeriders don't plague anybody.

    Quick and terrible analogy. I live in a really wealthy area and people around my neighborhood buy fireworks at the 4th of July that put some large cities to shame. I don't personally waste my money on fireworks, but I don't need to. On the 4th it sound like a war zone down here and I can sit on my back porch (I'm up a hill) and enjoy one hell of a show.

    Am I "plaguing" those folks who bought fireworks for their own enjoyment?

    No.

    I use plenty of free software to which I contribute nothing. Frankly, I haven't done systems level programming in 20+ years so contributing to Linux probably ain't happening. But I do have my own set of free software available on github, including a complete 1D barcode generator/decoder written in pure Ruby. Same thing in Perl. I have some incredible maze generation code in JavaScript. And sprintf in pure JavaScript. There's some other stuff. I'm actually going through my massive code base that I've built up in the last 25+ years of software development and putting anything that I deem even remotely useful to somebody out on github - dual licensed under BSD and GPL. This is a long-term project for me.

    I'm not being plagued by people who "freeload" off of me. I WANT THEM TO. The point is to save somebody else the time of inventing that particular wheel. It costs me nothing but a little time, but I enjoy that time and it's useful for me to curate the work, anyway.

    I'm a businessman, too. I have plenty of code that I exploit for profit in various ways. It's hard for me to see how this isn't working. Maybe I should have RTFA'd, but given the summary I'd probably pop a blood vessel if I wandered into the rest of it.

  47. Open Source always was and will be a failure by DanielOom · · Score: 1

    It follows that Open Source software does not and cannot exist, except as an innocent hobby, or else the theories of economics are erring.

  48. I am a free loader. by leslie.satenstein · · Score: 1

    I have an interest in the FOSS software that is useful to me. I do help to test. I do not open a wallet for support, and I am retired, and I need my pesos for other things. We are freeloaders because we don't have the means to contribute, or the link to where we could do it. I am waiting for an alternative to kickstart.com where I could have a login account, and therein, a list of software developers looking for donations. I would put some money into a $pool that is divided up by proportionally by popularity, based on the registered urls and password.