Seeking Coders, Tech Titans Turn To K-12 Schools

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Seeking Coders, Tech Titans Turn To K-12 Schools

Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday December 9, 2014 @12:55PM from the building-an-army dept.

theodp writes: Politico reports on how a tech PR blitz on the importance of coding in K-12 schools has won over President Obama, who's now been dubbed the "coder-in-chief" after sitting down Monday to "write" a few lines of computer code with middle school students as part of a PR campaign for the Hour of Code, which has earned bipartisan support in Washington. From the article: "The $30 million campaign to promote computer science education has been financed by the tech industry, led by Steve Ballmer, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, with corporate contributions from Microsoft, Google, Amazon and other giants. It's been a smash success: So many students opened up a free coding tutorial on Monday that the host website crashed. But the campaign has also stirred unease from some educators concerned about the growing influence of corporations in public schools. And it's raised questions about the motives of tech companies, which are sounding an alarm about the lack of computer training in American schools even as they lobby Congress for more H-1B visas to bring in foreign programmers."

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Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 12:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with cheap labor.
1. Re:Motives by preaction · 2014-12-09 13:34 · Score: 2
  
  ... as a source of cheap labor.
2. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:53 · Score: 1
  
  As a tech person, I like being well paid. As a manager, I'd like to be able to find someone in less than 6 months who has those skills.
  I would definitely like it to be someone who is an American citizen and pay them well. After all, managers will generally make more than everyone but the most senior level specialists because we know what our people make, and we expect more. The rising tide lifts all boats, at least here in technical management land. As long as I can justify a high salary for a coder/admin, I'm going to try and pay them well. It benefits me too, because better pay means I don't have to hire people who will fuck up my deadlines and deliverables.
  It certainly could turn into a cheap labor scenario, and I am no fan of the H1-B, having worked with many in my time, but businesses that do not have a good pool of candidates are in big trouble, because you need talent as well as skill on your coding bench to make money and get ahead unless you're already a giant, and even then it hurts when your coders suck. Many H1-Bs are sweatshop hacks. However, there are some who are very talented and I am happy when they manage to upgrade to green card or even naturalize.
3. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:00 · Score: 1
  
  The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with cheap labor.
  Stop being such a cynic. Their only motive is to educate the children, to provide them with a better tomorrow.
  Programming is headed nowhere, the future is analog.
4. Re:Motives by beelsebob · 2014-12-09 14:28 · Score: 1
  
  Wow... I guess we shouldn't educate our children then, that way our skills will be forever valuable, because no one else will ever be able to do them.
  This is such an insightful comment, I just can't believe I didn't think of this huge breakthrough in cultural politics before.
5. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:47 · Score: 0
  
  Not analogous. We educate our children in a broad range of subjects not so they can fulfill a narrow job specification, but so that they can be well-rounded adult citizens. The primary thing a child should grow up to be is a person, not a coder.
  I'm sorry you could not conceive of any purpose to child labor laws modifying how things were back in the good ol' days, but this is simply predatory market manipulation by means of using children. If you want there to be even the possibility of it being otherwise, set expectations that these software companies should fund education in -other- fields than software.
  The response to that suggestion will tell you everything you need to know.
6. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 16:29 · Score: 0
  
  The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with cheap labor.
  Stop being such a cynic. Their only motive is to educate the children, to provide them with a better tomorrow.
  You are quite the comedian. Are you in town all week?
7. Re:Motives by CODiNE · 2014-12-09 16:43 · Score: 1
  
  Great. With the state of security on the Internet we need a wider pool of developers to sift the wheat from the chaff. Too many guys getting paid to do what they can't. With the current security awareness going on, and retailers starting to get sued by banks there may finally be hope for a bit of improvement.
  
  --
  Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
8. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 17:58 · Score: 0
  
  The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with people who don't suck.
9. Re:Motives by russ_allegro · 2014-12-09 19:43 · Score: 1
  
  I think in the future to be a well rounded person, coding will be part of that. I can forsee any ocupation as well as everday living benefiting from some programming skills.
10. Re:Motives by Half-pint+HAL · 2014-12-09 21:42 · Score: 1
  
  I have met a great many people in an office environment who waste time on basic repetitive tasks because they don't know the basics of scripting... and I worked in an IT company! We're currently in a chicken-and-egg trap - software is dumbing down to the GUI so that dumbed-down users can operate it, and it's making it harder for power users as the software isn't designed for us any more. If our schools can turn the next generation into a code-savvy userbase, software can be designed for automation once again. (And after all, the future of computing is the command line, but in spoken form.)
  
  --
  Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
11. Re:Motives by JaredOfEuropa · 2014-12-09 22:41 · Score: 1
  
  Recommending people to learn how to code because computers play an ever-increasing role in our daily lives is laudable if you're a tech writer and open source advocate, but if you do so as a tech billionaire, you motives are immediately suspect? That's nice...
  
  Besides that, the difference between coders and non-coders in any profession is remarkably apparent; people who have learned coding at some point in their life seem to be the better troubleshooters and analysts. There are other ways to acquire those useful skills and some people will have a natural aptitude for them, but apparently coding is a very good exercise to impart them. I'd say that coding is a useful subject in school even for people who will never code professionally later in life.
  
  --
  If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
12. Re:Motives by MrKaos · 2014-12-09 23:02 · Score: 1
  
  The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with cheap labor.
  Stop being such a cynic. Their only motive is to educate the children, to provide them with a better tomorrow.
  I believe the children are our future, we should teach them well and let them lead the way by showing them all the beauty they possess inside.
  
  --
  My ism, it's full of beliefs.
13. Re:Motives by knightghost · 2014-12-10 01:31 · Score: 1
  
  Why aren't there more programmers? Because anyone smart enough to achieve a CS degree could instead get an MBA then a job with half the work and twice the pay.
  A similar problem happened with Petroleum Engineers but with different results. They increased the pay and a couple years later there were plenty of qualified engineers.
14. Re:Motives by BVis · 2014-12-10 02:09 · Score: 1
  
  As a manager, I'd like to be able to find someone in less than 6 months who has those skills.
  They're out there. They're just working for other companies. If you can't find someone in 6 months, you're doing something wrong. Either you're not looking hard enough, or you want the purple squirrel instead of someone you can train to fill in gaps in their skill set, or the compensation package you're offering isn't enough to lure the good workers away from their current positions, or prospective candidates ask questions about the culture and workflow of your business and what they hear in response makes them bolt for the door, or you stubbornly refuse to consider non-local candidates (either remote workers or workers you can pay to relocate). I personally have been on an interview where I've been asked "How do you feel about routine overtime?". It was the second or third question I was asked in the interview. Should have NOPEd out of there right then, but I went through the motions anyway, to get experience in interviewing. If a smart candidate (which is what you want) figures out that your workflow puts the devs at a disadvantage as compared to the business concerns (that same company told me that their workflow is this: Business decides they want something, business decides when they want it by, business decides what an adequate spec is, and then the project is tossed over the wall to Engineering, where it's now their problem. No consultation with anyone in Engineering until it's tossed over the wall with a hearty "Do this, if you don't like it, go work somewhere else.") Yeah, I wonder why they're having trouble attracting people..
  
  I would definitely like it to be someone who is an American citizen and pay them well.
  Well, I'm sure that YOU would prefer that. However, I'd bet a dollar that whoever controls the budget wants you to find a world-class coder and pay them minimum wage.
  Again, the "shortage" of STEM workers in this country is a lie, perpetuated by the tech giants so they can hire indentured servants from overseas on H1-B visas. There's a shortage of STEM workers that will accept the compensation packages and culture from companies that don't get it. But, if your culture rocks, Marketing is kept in check (meaning that Engineering can tell them to fuck off if they ask for anything too stupid), you provide a fun place to work, and offer them $20k more than they're making now, you'll find yourself much better able to headhunt people who are already working.
  Back to the topic, this is nothing more than a blatant attempt to flood the market with young coders without families to support or spend time with (because that's what losers do, coffee is for closers). It's simple supply and demand. Right now, supply (again, of people that can/will accept what the company is offering, not of coders themselves) is restricted, demand is constant or increasing, and the natural order of things is for prices (salaries) to go up. But, can't have that, the 1% needs their fifth summer home, so instead of paying people more, they hire H1-B visa holders and work to increase supply, because both of those things mean lower salaries.
  
  --
  Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
15. Re:Motives by BVis · 2014-12-10 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with people who will work for peanuts, work 90 hours a week, and agree to never see their families again.
  FTFY.
  
  --
  Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
16. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 03:22 · Score: 0
  
  The motive of tech companies is to fill the pipeline with cheap labor.
  Stop being such a cynic. Their only motive is to educate the children, to provide them with a better tomorrow.
  Programming is headed nowhere, the future is analog.
  You're more right than you think. I would never let my child "code" anything unless they were coding for a reason other than just coding. Programming has become the stenography of the 21st century. There was a time when, as a programmer, you would be involved in software design. Now everyone thinks they can design software and gives you specs (and crappy specs at that). You're expected to program something with minimal knowledge as though all programming requires is that you know language syntax.
  Personally, I'm tired of lazy executives like Obama that have a "great idea" that just needs to be "coded." If it's that easy why don't they just do it themselves. Oh right, they idea people.
17. Re:Motives by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 04:37 · Score: 0
  
  So they haven't learned anything from Sony, huh?
host website crashed by ralphdaugherty · 2014-12-09 12:59 · Score: 1

They might as well get introduced right to today's coding.
1. Re:host website crashed by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:04 · Score: 0
  
  More illegal mexican IT jobs I guess. Thanks Obamaslashdot
The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by NitsujTPU · 2014-12-09 13:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

You know, it may sound like a cliche, but the world is becoming more and more reliant on computer technology. You shouldn't look at this as Microsoft looking to churn out cheap help to build Word 2025. That's just not what they're doing. Microsoft engineers aren't poorly compensated for their efforts. Their among the most highly-compensated coders out there.
These are folks who have seen computers completely transform the world around them, and they foresee this trend continuing (probably wisely). There will always be gluts here and there, or shortages here and there, but the fact is that if you want an army of super-intelligent robots cleaning our oceans, helping feed the planet, and maintaining our future space stations, then you're going to need many many more capable coders than we have now.
1. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by turkeydance · 2014-12-09 13:10 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  well, of course, more labor decreases wages. and, then, when the robots can code.....c ya.
2. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:26 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Don't let the name of a company blind you. I've been a Microsoft developer. They have multiple teams doing almost exactly the same, but just with slight changes. Those teams should be merged and the products would be greatly improved. The company is full of waste. Up until recently the employee evaluation system was extremely hostile. If you didn't stab someone in the back, you'd be the one with the knife in your back. Unless your team was lucky enough to hire a bad programmer. Then you could just churn through the newbies and the rest of your team was safe. It will be awhile until that culture dies out.
  These folks are blinded by the tech around them. They don't see anything but tech. They assume the whole world uses and runs on tech. It doesn't. While it's true that there's way more programs, apps, websites, and solutions out there now, most of them are duplicates. There are tons of programs and libraries doing the same things.
  And we don't need many, many more programmers. We need higher quality programmers. There's way too much crap. Had software been designed and written correctly, the entire software security industry would disappear. It exists entirely due to crappy or uninformed programmers and deadline pushing higher-ups.
3. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:28 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  You shouldn't look at this as Microsoft looking to churn out cheap help to build Word 2025. That's just not what they're doing. Microsoft engineers aren't poorly compensated for their efforts. Their among the most highly-compensated coders out there.
  In other words, Microsoft could save a good sum of money if they could spend less on coders. By increasing the supply of coders they could drive those costs down.
  It isn't out of the goodness of their venomous heart that Microsoft is doing this. No, they're doing it to pay less money to people like you (assuming you're in IT).
4. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by jopsen · 2014-12-09 13:36 · Score: 0
  
  well, of course, more labor decreases wages.
  That's not the worst that can happen... When wages goes down, there will be a lot more projects that will suddenly be feasible to implement.
  
  Sure it's possible to float the market... but it's not likely that we'll get enough people interested in CS anytime soon :)
  CS is still a very boring field, and you can't sell it as anything else...
5. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:37 · Score: 0
  
  and future coders will cost a lot less, guaranteed.
6. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:44 · Score: 1
  
  Shortages (be they product or labor shortages) are always caused by the same thing: too low of a price.
  Pay programmers a salary that makes the job worth it, and programmers will appear to fill it.
  Everything else is an attempt at weaseling out of this simple responsibility.
7. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by rwa2 · 2014-12-09 13:47 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I live in Redmond. Microsoft has enough coders. They just laid a bunch of them off. What they want are cheaper coders to throw at their projects. That's why they're working so hard to bring in lots of H1Bs. Many of the H1Bs are not earnestly brought here to do the work. They're just here to flood the market with tech workers to reduce tech wages for everyone.
  Many of the MS H1Bs do end up leaving/escaping MS and working elsewhere in the region. Still, it isn't enough to get Seattle Tech wages down low enough (though they certainly are competitive vs. Silicon Valley wages). A big reason why Boeing has pushed hard to leave the Puget Sound region is because their engineering wages simply can't compete with the relatively high MS and Amazon wages for tech work.
  OTOH, MS has done much to improve the quality of life here in Seattle, investing in infrastructure and museums and businesses and other perks to attract top programmers. Boeing has always sorta taken the opposite approach, opening their factories in the crappiest, drug-infested neighborhoods in a effort to keep costs down and making their quality-of-living investments elsewhere if possible.
8. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Livius · 2014-12-09 13:58 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  When wages goes down, there will be a lot more projects that will suddenly be feasible to implement.
  I guess that's why the low wages led to zero unemployment.
  Oh, wait...
9. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:58 · Score: 0
  
  "Shortages (be they product or labor shortages) are always caused by the same thing: too low of a price."
  Shortages are always of two kinds: offer and demand.
  That's why they are millonaires and you don't. They know better.
10. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by BarbaraHudson · 2014-12-09 14:01 · Score: 2
  
  That's not the worst that can happen... When wages goes down, there will be a lot more projects that will suddenly be feasible to implement.
  When wages go down, there will be a lot more crap projects that should never see the light of day that will suddenly be feasible to implement.
  FTFY
  Not to mention that the barriers to entry are already too low in many respects (just 'cuz you can cut-n-paste code doesn't make you a developer) and each "gold rush" phase is shorter than the previous one (look at how fast mobile development got unprofitable for 99.5% of all developers).
  
  --
  "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
11. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:12 · Score: 0
  
  I think you are grossly overestimating the over all demand of coders/computer scientists/software engineers and how many will be needed in the US.
  There 7 billion people on this planet and what, 700 million would have the talent to be computer scientists - at least? And as the population increases - especially in the Third World - well, I am a pessimist for the demand of programmers/coders and whatnot in the future.
  Coders will be extremely common.
12. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by DexterIsADog · 2014-12-09 14:18 · Score: 1
  
  and future coders will cost a lot less, guaranteed.
  Yes, so do buggy-whip assemblers.
13. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by ralphdaugherty · 2014-12-09 14:26 · Score: 1
  
  You missed my point. Your "world is becoming more and more reliant on computer technology" meets host website crashes.
  Reliant software doesn't crash.
14. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:31 · Score: 0
  
  What he said is correct. Price is a function that depends on supply and demand. Supply (demand) by itself is useless, you can only know if it's low or high if you know the demand (supply).
  And unless Gates and friends screwed up spectacularly they're still billionaires.
15. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:35 · Score: 0
  
  These are folks who have seen computers completely transform the world around them, and they foresee this trend continuing (probably wisely). There will always be gluts here and there, or shortages here and there, but the fact is that if you want an army of super-intelligent robots cleaning our oceans, helping feed the planet, and maintaining our future space stations, then you're going to need many many more capable coders than we have now.
  Too often do I hear people massively exaggerate the need for coders in the future with no mention at all of the engineers and scientists needed to design and create this future. People seem to think computers can produce some sort of Utopia where people don't live in the real world anymore and the constraints of the laws of physics are no longer a problem.
16. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 15:19 · Score: 0
  
  I blame the economy, with things still being fairly down it is easy to see how it could lead to being protective of their job prospects and salaries.
17. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 15:20 · Score: 0
  
  Cute condescension, but of course comparing the complexity of software development to mechanical assembly is just stupidity on your part, almost matched by your stupidity in failing to understand that nothing about this will or is intended to make coding -obsolete-, but rather expand it indefinitely at ever-decreasing cost.
18. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 18:05 · Score: 0
  
  >Microsoft has enough coders. They just laid a bunch of them off.
  They laid most of their QA staff off, not the coders. The QA staff that were left were converted to coders. Believe me, Microsoft wants more good coders.
  Needless to say, the rest of your post is equally full of BS.
19. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 18:25 · Score: 0
  
  You shouldn't look at this as Microsoft looking to churn out cheap help to build Word 2025
  That's why M$ and all the other tech companies weren't involved in anti-hiring policies... oh wait
20. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by khallow · 2014-12-09 22:11 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Low wages don't mean low cost of employment. People tend to forget that the developed world punishes employment.
21. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 23:26 · Score: 0
  
  "robots" can code now, just not very well at all. Actually automation is used heavily in developing the Linux kernel.........why do you think its nothing but a spaghettified mess of pointers and gotos? Because outputting pointers and goto spaghetti is computationally less demanding on algorithms than if you were to have constraints such that the final form needed to meet some standard of structured code.
  the moar u no
22. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by AmiMoJo · 2014-12-10 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  The developed world guarantees a certain standard of living for everyone. That means anyone who wants to pay extremely low wages is relying on the government to keep their employees alive, fed and sheltered from the elements, and must expect to pay tax to contribute towards that.
  Of course, the amount of tax paid is only a fraction of what it costs to keep the employees alive and productive, but the non-viable welfare queen businesses that rely on government hand-outs to survive will moan about them anyway.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
23. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by AmiMoJo · 2014-12-10 02:16 · Score: 1
  
  I wouldn't call the Great Pyramids "crap". It's amazing what you can do with an unlimited supply of disposable slave labour.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
24. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by BarbaraHudson · 2014-12-10 02:35 · Score: 1
  
  Good point. Great for those at the top of the pyramid, not so good for those at the bottom. Looks like nothing ever changes ...
  
  --
  "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
25. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by hendrips · 2014-12-10 03:26 · Score: 1
  
  Bad example - modern evidence suggests that the Great Pyramids were built by salaried employees, possibly as a public works program to make up for the seasonal "unemployment" that would have occurred in sync with the Nile's flooding.
  The Western notion that the Egyptians had vast hordes of slaves building the pyramids comes from incorrect speculation by the Ancient Greek historians, who didn't know what they were talking about - not really their fault, since the age of pyramids ended 1500 years before the Greek historians began writing.
26. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by scamper_22 · 2014-12-10 04:05 · Score: 1
  
  One line response: Please explain why there are tech layoffs.
27. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 21:25 · Score: 0
  
  Standard of living? This is why we need a carefully crafted negative income tax, or perhaps a guaranteed income.
28. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by khallow · 2014-12-10 21:50 · Score: 1
  
  The developed world guarantees a certain standard of living for everyone.
  Only as long as it can afford to do so. Then the guarantee goes away.
  
  That means anyone who wants to pay extremely low wages is relying on the government to keep their employees alive, fed and sheltered from the elements, and must expect to pay tax to contribute towards that.
  Let us keep in mind that most such businesses already pay taxes as do most of their customers. If that isn't enough, maybe you should look at cutting back on those guarantees (particularly, the ones like Social Security and health care related stuff, that don't actually contribute in an efficient way to a standard of living).
  
  Of course, the amount of tax paid is only a fraction of what it costs to keep the employees alive and productive
  That's what wages are for.
29. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-11 03:33 · Score: 0
  
  Let us keep in mind that most such businesses already pay taxes as do most of their customers. If that isn't enough, maybe you should look at cutting back on those guarantees (particularly, the ones like Social Security and health care related stuff, that don't actually contribute in an efficient way to a standard of living).
  False. Companies like Wal-Mart pay very, very little in taxes due to their thin price margins. It is a known part of their business plan to keep their price of labor and goods down (by utilizing government welfare and cheap overseas labor) to keep prices low (and shareholder value high).
  You might as well accept the fact that you'll never be a billionaire. Stop pretending like you will be one day, and stop licking their boots. Look out for your own interests, for a change. Authoritarianism is deadly.
30. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by khallow · 2014-12-11 03:56 · Score: 1
  
  Companies like Wal-Mart pay very, very little in taxes due to their thin price margins.
  Another way to put that is that they have low profit margins and hence, are very sensitive to higher labor costs.
  
  It is a known part of their business plan to keep their price of labor and goods down (by utilizing government welfare and cheap overseas labor) to keep prices low (and shareholder value high).
  I wouldn't call that "shareholder value" since lower prices mean lower profits and thus, less shareholder value.
31. Re:The first few comments are awfully pessimistic by khallow · 2014-12-11 09:06 · Score: 1
  
  You might as well accept the fact that you'll never be a billionaire. Stop pretending like you will be one day, and stop licking their boots. Look out for your own interests, for a change. Authoritarianism is deadly.
  I appreciate that you are trying to understand my point of view. But the process of creating inefficient and ill-advised "guarantees" and public goods, and then punishing unpopular parties like businesses for allegedly taking advantage of those (basically scapegoating some mostly innocent groups because the scheme doesn't work as advertised), doesn't further my interests even though I will never be a billionaire.
  
  Also, I disagree on what is authoritarianism. Sure, Walmart has a centralized control structure and can be thought of as an authoritarian system. But it's not the only system out there in the developed world even for the niche that Walmart is part of. There is a great deal of diversification there. And there is a fundamental characteristic of employment which doesn't apply to usual governance. Namely, it is voluntary to associate with Walmart either as an employee or as a customer with low cost to disassociate oneself. If Walmart should get too set in its ways or ignore the concerns of its employees or customers, then there will always be competitors who will take advantage of that. That doesn't happen in a government.
  
  Meanwhile the sea of regulation, taxes, and subsidies that interfere with the employment process all tend to come from a few highly centralized government bureaucracies with at best poor competition with other governments. That is the true authoritarian threat.
Mexico's not bad by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:13 · Score: 0

I wish the outsourced IT jobs were going to the America friendly, middle income nation of Mexico, but they're not.
Thankfully most people don't know how to code by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:14 · Score: 1

Including the Ex-Amazon and Ex-Microsoft dimwits I work with.
1. Re: Thankfully most people don't know how to code by Pablopelos · 2014-12-09 13:20 · Score: 1
  
  This man speaks the truth, they are mostly like puppy mills for college grads.
Of Course It Crashed by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:14 · Score: 0

With a homepage size of 2.7MB made up of 62 different resources (saved the page to disk then checked folder contents), 3 tracking scripts, at least 2 dynamic counters, and an embedded map of course it crashed. Though you'd think the web giants would be able to make a decent web page...
1. Re:Of Course It Crashed by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:16 · Score: 0
  
  What do you expect when the primary focus of this billion-dollar boondoggle is to force 10 year old girls to "code" whether they're interested in doing that or not. They have to load the site down with all sorts of pretty candy and gems or the girls are going to bail 5 minutes into "coding."
Uber by Tokolosh · 2014-12-09 13:19 · Score: 1

Are you the same guys cheering the disruption of fossilized business models by foreign upstarts?

--
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
An Infinite Number of Monkeys with Keyboards? by Irate+Engineer · 2014-12-09 13:22 · Score: 2

It seems the tech industry is doing everything it can to increase the population of code monkeys in the world, and finding new ways to work them harder and harder for less and less pay. So that is how the Singularity will be achieved - enough monkeys beating on keyboards, eventually one of them will inadvertently make sentient computer. And it will be Wi-fi enabled, of course, so we're pretty much hosed after that.

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1. Re:An Infinite Number of Monkeys with Keyboards? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:55 · Score: 0
  
  Don't worry. It'll get stuck on the device when it tries to leave due to hitting the ISP transfer cap.
Pathetic by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 13:37 · Score: 1

These corporations will even exploit children to avoid paying a professional wage to qualified software engineers.
just waiting... by Connie_Lingus · 2014-12-09 13:39 · Score: 1

...to fork his repository.

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Astroturf stuff as narrative for higher H1b quota by echtertyp · 2014-12-09 13:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's pretty transparent really. To "sell" the idea of ever higher H1b quotas, the titans like Zuckerberg have to put on a convincing act, with feigned signs of desperation about hiring. Part of that act is dog and pony stunts , astroturf campaigns, etc. Anything to create a "narrative" as they say in U.S. media where it becomes accepted wisdom that desperate measures are needed to bring on more programmers. ( As long as one doesn't look at actual numbers, such as wage changes indicating market forces responding to shortages, or anything like that )
Re:blah blah blah by friedmud · 2014-12-09 13:45 · Score: 1

No. Design is just as important as getting the right answer. More projects fail from bad design then from not working properly (entropy overtakes them until they can't add new features users want or the bugs start to creep in as new features are added due to poor compartmentalization).
Math helps. It helps a ton. Being able to use givens and rearrange a known set of variables to get to an answer is definitely critical. BUT - there is more to creating good software.
Starting early on how to think abstractly and to generalize with good interfaces is key so starting with high schoolers is not a bad idea at all.
FSF should do into schools by future+assassin · 2014-12-09 13:45 · Score: 0

and teach the kids good copyright, software and business ethics.

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1. Re:FSF should do into schools by BarbaraHudson · 2014-12-09 14:08 · Score: 1
  
  and teach the kids good copyright, software and business ethics.
  RMS ... in K-12 schools ... OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
  Why not use modern tech to just learn from RMS how to eat their own foot cheese.
  
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2. Re:FSF should do into schools by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:46 · Score: 0
  
  "teach the kids good copyright, software and business ethics."
  How about just plain general ethics? That way future lawyers and politicians might get some and maybe the future 'religious zealot/mad scientist' down the block.
3. Re:FSF should do into schools by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 15:37 · Score: 0
  
  ...about the RMS foot cheese thing: he is probably one of the world's greatest living LISP programmers, and so... Lord in heaven, that was disturbing viewing. I hadn't seen the vid before.
  I still admire RMS (sobs)
Laugh by koan · 2014-12-09 13:58 · Score: 2

I just have this vision of coders as the next shortorder cooks.

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Re:blah blah blah by turbidostato · 2014-12-09 14:01 · Score: 1

"Starting early on how to think abstractly and to generalize with good interfaces is key"
And that's what maths is all about, my friend.
Seeking Cheaper Coders by plasticsquirrel · 2014-12-09 14:11 · Score: 2

FTFY... Duh, supply and demand. If we were lacking programmers, SALARIES WOULD GO UP. Instead, salaries have stayed the same or gone down. What we have is not a lack of programmers, but a lack of cheap programmers that can be treated like interchangeable cogs in a machine. "Buy one for $15,000 a year, fluent in the latest version of Flub!"

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I think you've misunderstood code.org by matbury · 2014-12-09 14:21 · Score: 1

Code.org's and KhanAcademy.org's curricula are a joke. They have next to no educational benefit and may do more to put children off software engineering and computer science than attract them to it.
What's code.org's business model? How do they suppose they'll make money out of their venture? They'll do what most web companies do; sell advertising of course. Zuckerberg et al. are already signing up the likes of Disney Inc. for some lucrative contracts to sell merchandise to kiddies. Too bad the public won't be any the wiser until it's too late. Expect some belated indiginant outrage from the same press who are singing Zuckerberg et al's praises at the moment. The con-men will have moved on to their next mark by then.
1. Re:I think you've misunderstood code.org by Nermal · 2014-12-09 18:41 · Score: 1
  
  ...you do know what ".org" means, right?
2. Re:I think you've misunderstood code.org by Half-pint+HAL · 2014-12-09 21:52 · Score: 1
  
  ...you do know what ".org" means, right?
  Nothing legally enforceable.
  
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3. Re:I think you've misunderstood code.org by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 02:42 · Score: 0
  
  All it means is they registered a domain. Non-profit status, OTOH, is a whole different ball of legal wax.
4. Re:I think you've misunderstood code.org by Nermal · 2014-12-10 03:36 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, and their about page, which the OP clearly didn't bother checking, says:
  "Code.org is a registered public 501c3 nonprofit, with support from the general public."
  Yeah, the .org by its self doesn't mean anything, but it does mean you should probably check for obvious answers to questions like "what is their business model?" before jumping straight to the conspiracy theories.
5. Re:I think you've misunderstood code.org by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 06:08 · Score: 0
  
  Nonprofit corporations can (and frequently do) pay gigantic salaries to executives who sit in plush offices and do absolutely nothing. It's a great way to help out your old college pals (with a hefty paycheck). And it's all legal.
6. Re:I think you've misunderstood code.org by matbury · 2014-12-13 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  How much do you think Disney Inc. are going to pay Facecbook et al. for this advertising adventure? What other massive advertising clients do they have lined up to take advantage of all these kids? How much of that money will go back into Code.org? How's that a non-profit organisation? Just because the law allows it, that doesn't make it right. It's a for-profit advertising platform, whichever way you look at it.
  
  "...with support from the general public."
  Yes, Facebook et al. are supported by the general public, i.e. tax payers, because they offshore profits and get enormous tax subsidies.
coder-n-chimp by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:27 · Score: 0

All the names dropped in this article are a bunch of rich assholes looking for cheap labor.
They care nothing for America or you. If you don't work for cheap they will import Ah Poo from
India. Foreigners go home and take these rich idiots with you.
All you "coders" out there stop playing video games and get a real eduction in college and start a business!
It's all "so what?" to me by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 14:51 · Score: 1

There's virtually no uni recognition of HS CS programs by university and little indication of that changing any time soon or ever. So, whatever code.org et al's motivations are it's just going to end on CS fading away again in K12.
FUCKING WHINERS! by majid_aldo · 2014-12-09 16:22 · Score: 0

waa waaa NO H1Bs! they are cheap labor! AMERICANS FIRST!! waa waaa exploiting children! code academies suck! it makes for cheap labor!
waaa waaa.. i'm smart and i don't want anyone else to be as smart as i am!
seriously, i've been on /. for more than a decade. this is pretty low!

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1. Re:FUCKING WHINERS! by Nermal · 2014-12-09 19:12 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  THANK YOU.
  I am absolutely disgusted by the number of people on this thread who seem to be threatened by the idea of encouraging an early interest in CS. I've been volunteering with Hour of Code this week, meaning that, unlike everyone else I've seen on this thread, I actually have some first-hand knowledge about it. I've done the exercises myself, and have seen kids using them start to "get it". How many of them will keep with it? Idunno. But if more kids get into coding because they were given the right tool or had access to a CS curriculum earlier, and they keep exploring it, and that leads to more developers on the market, if they have half as much fun getting there as I did, then that's awesome. I'm not a big enough asshole to value my own special snowflakeness over exposing kids to as many opportunities as possible, and I'm ashamed of how many people around here seem to be.
  As for those who scoff and turn up their noses at drag and drop interfaces like Scratch, oh man... where to start? First, it's an INTRODUCTORY tool. Nobody is pretending that this is what professional developers do. Second, it's an excellent way to provide that introduction! Your first language is often the hardest to learn, right? Why? Because you're not just learning the language, you're learning how to think like a developer, how to break down problems and structure solutions in a particular way. Language is an implementation detail. Thus, tools like Scratch abstract it away so you're dealing with the most essential presentation possible of concepts like variables, control structures, and so on. You get that down first, then you start writing "proper" code. IMO it's a brilliant approach.
2. Re:FUCKING WHINERS! by Windwraith · 2014-12-09 21:17 · Score: 1
  
  You are talking to the crowd that every time robotics and AI come up, bring up Hollywood scenarios about metal overlords and shit. At this point I don't think many slashdotters, or at least the ones posting in the "muh jerbs" type of news, can tell reality from fiction.
  I expected smarter from Slashdot, sincerely.
3. Re:FUCKING WHINERS! by Half-pint+HAL · 2014-12-09 21:58 · Score: 1
  
  My problem with Scratch is that it starts with non-intuitive coding paradigms then tries to simplify them just by virtue of "graphical". We as coders have become fixated on our existing paradigms and find it difficult to see that there are other, more appropriate styles for beginners. Even those that do often take the easy way out and declare that thee's no point using a more accessible paradigm as this is the kind of programming that is the end-goal of computer education anyway.
  
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4. Re:FUCKING WHINERS! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 01:51 · Score: 0
  
  "62,033,998 have tried an hour of code"
  Aw, crap. There's a clog in the kid coders chute!!! Leroy! Get your ass in gear.
5. Re:FUCKING WHINERS! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 04:32 · Score: 0
  
  waa waaa NO H1Bs! they are cheap labor! AMERICANS FIRST!! waa waaa exploiting children! code academies suck! it makes for cheap labor!
  waaa waaa.. i'm smart and i don't want anyone else to be as smart as i am!
  seriously, i've been on /. for more than a decade. this is pretty low!
  Only a fool would think his skill would keep him employed for life. Americans whine because they know exactly how big business works. While I understand your point of view, I think you're awful naive. American companies have a habit of using up people and throwing them away. Personally, I'm tired of the elite from $NameyourCounty coming here with an education and expecting a good job when it's becoming more and more difficult to get an education in the USA.
  I hope you're an American, Majid so that when you turn 55 you can enjoy the benefits of imported workers. The good news is you won't have to work. The bad news is you won't be able to find a job.
Hmm, lets see here by s.petry · 2014-12-09 16:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

Instead of teaching people a specific programming language then, why not teach them everything else that they should be learning in school anyway which makes a good programmer. Want a list? Okay smartass here is a list.
1. Language - More is better so that people can freely share and exchange ideas but at least English Grammar and Composition in the US.
2. Rhetoric and Logic - Logic teaches critical thinking skills as well as morality, and rhetoric further improves communication skills and rational discourse and debate (both of these things are painfully absent from academia today)
3. Math - Again more is better. Algebra and variables are the basis for simple programming language skills. This teaches the use of variables without locking someone into a restricted interface for coding in a specific language.
4. Supplement this curriculum with history economics which extends language and provides ample material for debate and discourse.
5. Further supplement the curriculum with Music theory to better learn Trig, and sciences to further their abilities with math and critical thinking.
Wow, sounds just about like classes we had in the US until the 1930s when we adopted the Prussian designed "Industrial Education system" which made people smart enough to calculate artillery range but too damn stupid to question orders doesn't it? Oh, you may not know this part of history since it's buried in piles of bureaucratic shit to hide it.. but it's there!
So why are we teaching very special bits of information and ignoring a classical education system which produced every single well known scientist in history? Still does really, because the best and brightest today go to private schools which do use the classical methods and not what public schools have become. Cui Bono. Well, large businesses that currently control everything benefit because people will be smart enough to follow instructions to make some piece of code work, but not smart enough to question why they make the code or question their economic status for doing so. Government institutions will do the same thing for the same reasons.
If what you said is true, "it's only for the children" I'll say prove it! Not one piece of public education today has been institutionalized "for the children" so why would you claim this piece is different? I believe it's just another appeal to emotion fantasy and has no connection with reality. I have history on my side, you have nothing but a delusion.

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-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
1. Re:Hmm, lets see here by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 09:57 · Score: 0
  
  Wow, sounds just about like classes we had in the US until the 1930s when we adopted the Prussian designed "Industrial Education system" which made people smart enough to calculate artillery range but too damn stupid to question orders doesn't it? Oh, you may not know this part of history since it's buried in piles of bureaucratic shit to hide it.. but it's there!
  I live in what used to be the capital of Prussia (Berlin). I have on a couple of occasions seen references here on Slashdot about America's program to import Prussian industrial education in the 1930s. It doesn't make much sense to me; Prussia ceased to exist sixty years earlier. Wikipedia says that some places in the US experimented with Prussian education in the 1850s due to its emphasis on social cohesion, but that these efforts were dropped in the early 20th century
  So can you please enlighten me on what the hell you are talking about?
Delusional much? by s.petry · 2014-12-09 17:21 · Score: 1

I hate to be so harsh, but the amount of irrational bullshit that people spread deserves harsh responses and heavy criticism. Don't worry, citations are provided at the end of this post.
If this was really and truly "for the children" as you claim I want you to demonstrate that today's kids are smarter than kids 100 years ago. You can't, because facts do not back this at all. On average our IQ is 4-14 points lower today than it was 60 years ago. That is not a small measure, that is a huge measure. This is even though when Radio came out we were told that Radio would make everyone smarter, and when TV came out we were told TV would make everyone smarter, and when home video came out we were told that home video would make everyone smarter, and when computers came out we were told that computers would make everyone smarter. THOSE THINGS NEVER HAPPENED!
Taking your claim at face value, the "coders" have to somehow believe that all of the knowledge they were required to have to become world changing coders is not relevant to who they are or what they do for a living. They must believe that somehow you can circumvent all educational requirements and shit coders right out of high school that can not only understand the world, but extremely complex problems, and further be able to begin mapping out solutions to these complex problems. That is right! Taking you at your word these "coders" must believe that they have no education to back their abilities and _anyone_ can do their job with minimal education and a minimal coding skills.
I am not taking you at your word because history and facts do not back your word. Lets look at reality shall we? You can't teach physics without teaching them math first, and you can't teach someone to write novels without teaching them grammar and composition. You can't teach someone to be a mechanical engineer by simply giving them a drag and drop CAD program, and you can't teach chemistry by giving someone a drag and drop periodical table of elements. These are things we know so well that we don't even question them. We can argue semantics after the fact like what CAD program is better, but we don't expect a kid to be able to find the area of a rectangle without being able to multiply _FIRST_.
Based on what we know, there is a rational conclusion that "You can't make someone a competent programmer by giving them a drag and drop program to "develop code" in either. This is such a basic premise that I'm astounded that people like you will claim "but it's for the children" when all empirical evidence shows that it's NOT for the children. It's to make cheap obedient servants for the masters!
References for IQ here and here. Reference for intentional institutionalized education problems here. The issue of institutional attempts to shortcut education is here.

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-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
1. Re:Delusional much? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-09 17:47 · Score: 0
  
  If what you say is true, then the efforts to suppress wages won't work, as the "graduates" won't be able to fill the roles required of them....do you think the powers that be are less intelligent or informed than yourself, seeing as they are attempting what you claim to know is impossible...
2. Re:Delusional much? by s.petry · 2014-12-09 18:21 · Score: 1
  
  For the record, I never stated that the people holding power are less intelligent than I. I would say many things, such as they are cruel, lacking empathy, lacking morality, but not stupid or ignorant. I have spent decades learning things that people hid from public view, and still seek information. These people learn it early because they are the ones that hid the information to begin with. They don't make the game impossible, because then it's not a game.
  Do you consider that factory workers today are well paid for their willingness to trudge into a factory and do what needs to be done for a day? This is what the powers want, an assembly line of cheap workers that they control. And when it becomes cheaper to just ship everything elsewhere, where do these same people then turn to for jobs? That is the end game, what they make in profit along the way is icing on the cake.
  
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  -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
3. Re:Delusional much? by NitsujTPU · 2014-12-09 18:40 · Score: 1
  
  With all due respect, your post does not seem to have much to do with what I posted at all.
4. Re:Delusional much? by Half-pint+HAL · 2014-12-09 21:48 · Score: 1
  
  On average our IQ is 4-14 points lower today than it was 60 years ago.
  Isn't the IQ scale norm-referenced within study groups? The average IQ in any demographic group is 100.
  
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5. Re:Delusional much? by BVis · 2014-12-10 02:16 · Score: 2
  
  If what you say is true, then the efforts to suppress wages won't work, as the "graduates" won't be able to fill the roles required of them
  Sure they will. They're warm bodies that will accept below-market salaries. Yes, the product they turn out will be total shit, but it was CHEAP total shit, and that's really all that matters to the non-technical management types.
  
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  Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
6. Re:Delusional much? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 21:17 · Score: 0
  
  About IQ:
  - Population amount is increasing mostly in Africa
  - Amount of children is staying pretty much the same, but amount of old people is increasing
  - Education and food have been linked to IQ
  - As IQ is also based on age, you would need to constantly get smarter (most likely impossible) or your IQ will start to drop.
  - Amount of poor people is decreasing.
  First I was thinking that amount of poor people might be increasing, but that is not true. So I would say that IQ is dropping because amount of old people is increasing. It is easy to verify if you have the original data where the numbers come from. Just map the IQ to age and check e.g. if 15-year-olds are getting smarter or not. And anyway, if you want to measure educational system, you should measure only locally and only people of certain age.
Businesses caused the problem by being too picky by sethstorm · 2014-12-09 21:17 · Score: 1

It certainly could turn into a cheap labor scenario, and I am no fan of the H1-B, having worked with many in my time, but businesses that do not have a good pool of candidates are in big trouble, because you need talent as well as skill on your coding bench to make money and get ahead unless you're already a giant, and even then it hurts when your coders suck. Many H1-Bs are sweatshop hacks. However, there are some who are very talented and I am happy when they manage to upgrade to green card or even naturalize.
That's what you get when you do nothing to counter the entitlement mentality of businesses.

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van Der Snoot Private Academy much? by sethstorm · 2014-12-09 21:52 · Score: 1

Wow, sounds just about like classes we had in the US until the 1930s when we adopted the Prussian designed "Industrial Education system" which made people smart enough to calculate artillery range but too damn stupid to question orders doesn't it? Oh, you may not know this part of history since it's buried in piles of bureaucratic shit to hide it.. but it's there!
Your epic contempt for public schools, however good they can get, is shining brightly. Then again, I doubt you've seen a well-run, highly-ranked public school.
On the other hand, no real problem exists with the people we have.

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1. Re:van Der Snoot Private Academy much? by s.petry · 2014-12-10 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  I have some citations on this below, you can search the thread for those citations in the other post. There are institutional problems with our public schools, so defending teachers that are intentionally handcuffed by the institution is a poor approach at addressing the concerns of numerous people criticizing the current bureaucracy (which is the failure).
  Unfortunately I have seen the gems of public school systems. My criticism comes as a parent, not a person with no exposure or experience.
  
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  -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Something should be done! by MrKaos · 2014-12-09 22:58 · Score: 1

These K-12 visa holders are taking our jobs!

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yoou know what by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 00:10 · Score: 0

Hey Microsuck! FacelessBook! crApple! We will all work on your programming projects for FREE, RIGHT NOW! All you have to do is put up a repo of your source code! Easy!
Re:Astroturf stuff as narrative for higher H1b quo by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 00:28 · Score: 0

BUT Mark Suck-A-Turd can have all the programmers he wants FOR FREE! All he has to do is open source FacelessBook! We will contribute to the project for FREE! FaceRipperBook would still be competitive because he still has huge warehouselike datafarms and insurmountable advertising partnerships and crooked backroom deals with intelligence agencies, right?
Developers, Developers, Developers! by JoeCommodore · 2014-12-10 02:53 · Score: 1

How about this idea:
Microsoft wants more developers using thier tools. They are having a problem getting experienced ones onto thier platform, so they are now training inexperienced ones the Microsoft way.

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stop it already by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-10 04:05 · Score: 0

I submitted code again for an interview in Ireland. Good working code. I'm probably still not going to get the job. That's the norm.
I'm not Chinese I live in Ireland. My bsc in comp Sci is toilet roll. I'm Irish. Thats just the way it is...
Refused for interships...