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Vinyl Record Pressing Plants Struggle To Keep Up With Demand

An anonymous reader writes The WSJ reports that the revival of vinyl records, a several-year trend that many figured was a passing fad, has accelerated during 2014 with an astounding 49 percent sales increase over 2013 (line chart here). Some listeners think that vinyl reproduces sound better than digital, and some youngsters like the social experience of gathering around a turntable. The records are pressed at a handful of decades-old, labor-intensive factories that can't keep up with the demand; but since the increased sales still represent only about 2 percent of US music sales, there hasn't been a rush of capital investment to open new plants. Raw vinyl must now be imported to America from countries such as Thailand, since the last US supplier closed shop years ago. Meanwhile, an industry pro offers his take on the endless debate of audio differences between analog records and digital formats; it turns out there were reasons for limiting playing time on each side back in the day, apart from bands not having enough decent material.

58 of 433 comments (clear)

  1. Not really missing vinyl by rbanzai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I was born in the 1960s so I was brought up on vinyl, but I was bummed at all the hissing and pops and crackles even though I tried to take care of my records. The clarity of CDs was a revelation even though a certain warmth was sacrificed.

    I won't ever miss the defects of vinyl, but today's common digital formats sacrifice far too much information, leaving the listener to "enjoy" the watery tones of overcompressed music.

    1. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Twinbee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Could that 'warmth' simply be emulated by an adjustment of the equalizers? Perhaps an increase the amount of bass or mid-range may get the effect you're looking for.

      If so, digital can emulate the older vinyl, but the reverse isn't true.

      --
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    2. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      All modern DACs (other than some silly audiophile freaky-fringe products) have output reconstruction filters that mean there are no stair-steps on the output.

    3. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Digital audio is NOT stairsteps. Never has been. Proof with an analog oscilloscope: http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

    4. Re:Not really missing vinyl by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 2

      Yeah and the scope has a bandwidth in the megahertz, those steps aren't going to be in the output signal to the speakers, and even if they were they would be smoothed out (filtered) by the speaker crossover and the mechanical time constant of the speaker parts.

      And then there's the air, those steps aren't going through the air...

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    5. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Richy_T · · Score: 2

      DAC smoothing was explained to me by an audiophile doctor during the first couple of years of my physics degree. This would have been around 1990-91. I think your father may have just been mistaken.

    6. Re:Not really missing vinyl by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I grew up in an urban, blue collar neighborhood in the 60s; we didn't have much (any) exposure to live music. But my mom had that depression era better-yourself ethic, so she amassed a fairly complete record collection of classical "standards", and bought a pretty good component stereo to play them on. But I never saw her listen to any of them. Having these meant we were cultured people to her, but she was too busy getting things done to waste time sitting around listening to music.

      I on the other hand had plenty of time, and listened to everything. When I was older I saved up my paper route money and bought a high end audio-technica cartridge, then began adding to the record collection.

      When I was sixteen I got a job at the hospital which paid good money; 20 hours a week at $3.75/hr which was good money back in 1977. I took my new found wealth and bought my very first opera tickets. I remember sitting in the audience and being shocked when the music just came out of nowhere, without the preliminary low hissing and popping I associated with the start of music. But that was nothing to what followed.

      The music had color, depth and dimension I'd never imagined music having. Even though by then I had a pretty good sound system, what came out of it was a washed-out echo of the real thing. It was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. I can't describe it, except to say that if music coming off a vinyl record was a strong cup of coffee, then live music would be shooting cocaine directly into your veins.

      That experienced killed my budding audiophile tendencies. To this day if I had a thousand dollars to spend on music, I'd spend it on performance tickets rather than upgrading my sound system.

      As for CDs, they seem to be all over the place to me. Early on there were a lot of bad CDs because of bad engineering. Some were released with their vinyl oriented RIAA equalization intact, which is just plain dumb. People like to argue about technology, but I think recording engineering is an often overlooked factor in what comes out of your speakers. I have an MP3 album of the original cast recording of "Hair", and it sounds great over a good pair of earphones. It's not because of some kind of magical MP3 pixie dust, it's because the original recording was done so competently. If something is missing in the original master tapes, no amount of lossless encoding and copper-free speaker cables will conjure it back.

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    7. Re:Not really missing vinyl by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it can't be emulated by equalization. If at all it could be emulated by special DSP effects that also add some special distortion. There are plenty such effects available (in fact, a bit too many), but it's usually a horrible idea to slap one of those over an already mastered track.

      The real problem has nothing to do with the warmth of vinyl, though. The real problem is that as a result of the infamous loudness war digital CDs are nowadays mastered in a completely different way than vinyl records, a way that is so overcompressed that it completely destroys the sound quality of the music - and provably so, as you can measure the horrible effects of this mastering precisely. It's not a subjective thing at all. Vinyl records have become much louder over the past few decades, too, but they have physical limits that digital media like CDs don't have. If a vinyl record was mastered like a CD, the needle would literally jump out of the track. (With adequate mastering CDs would be superior to Vinyl in almost every respect, but the reality is different due to the way mastering engineers were and are still forced to squeeze every inch of dynamics out of productions.)

      Things get much worse with modern digital formats like MP3 or AAC. These would be barely tolerable with very careful mastering, but with modern "loudness competitive" mastering they create even worse artefacts than CDs due to intersample peaks and the interplay with the lossy recording process. Mid/side processing can reveal the horrible blubbering effects that these formats produce in case you can't hear them. (Although, if you can't hear them then you're probably deaf anyway and it won't matter.)

      There is great hope that once broadcast stations have adopted new loudness measurement standards like EBU R128 the problem will vanish over time. These standards level the broadcast signals not to standard amplitude levels but according to broader loudness criteria - measuring mean values and taking into account the dynamic range of the audio material using standardized procedures. With these new standards we will hopefully get some dynamics and audio quality back to digital media which are principally vastly superior to vinyl.

    8. Re:Not really missing vinyl by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      Could that 'warmth' simply be emulated by an adjustment of the equalizers?

      Not only that, you can synthesize the pops and clicks to make it sound really natural. And for you cassette tape fans, you can add hiss. It's the same with this new HD video stuff. Everything looks like a daytime TV soap opera now. Video is like cheese, it's better with a little fuzz around the edges. I personally run all my Bond films through a 'hair in the film gate' effect...

      For digital I do prefer 24bit and 96k, "just in case". There are 'sounds' you don't hear but do feel, both above and below sonic range.

      --
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    9. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Solandri · · Score: 2

      The analog waves looked like regular osilloscope waves but the digital ones looked like tiny sets of a thousand stairs going up and down. He claimed this difference may be perceivable by some people.

      Sigh. This is the misconception that keeps millions of non-technical people mired in the stone age of audio.

      When you play back digital audio, that stairstep pattern isn't sent to the speakers. A DAC (digital to audio converter) finds the unique mathematical signal which passes through all those stairsteps given a certain frequency limit. I repeat - the solution is unique. For a given audio signal and sampling rate, a given stairstep digital pattern converts into a unique and perfectly smooth analog pattern. That smooth analog pattern is what's sent to the speakers, and is every bit as smooth as the analog waves you saw on your oscilloscope.

      Watch this video. The meat of it is in the first 10 minutes and will save you a lifetime of misunderstanding about digital sampling.

    10. Re:Not really missing vinyl by lucm · · Score: 2

      To this day if I had a thousand dollars to spend on music, I'd spend it on performance tickets rather than upgrading my sound system.

      The most amazing live experience is stuff like brass bands, such as Empire Brass. No recording can give justice to the physical impact of natural harmonics of perfectly tuned brass instruments. Amazing experience.

      But his works for "listener" music, such as opera or jazz, but not for pop/rock concerts, where the sound quality is not there, the event is more about decibels and the social experience. Also instruments such as guitars tend to be tuned for intervals, not chords, and this minimizes the audio impact.

      --
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    11. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The little "steps" in digital audio are so small and so fast, that no one can hear them.

      No, those steps don't exist. The digital sample is basically the minimum information needed to code the original smooth analog signal. The DAC takes that minimum digital info and can convert it back into the complete and smooth original analog signal.

      You're thinking of the digital signal as discrete but continuous steps in time. It's not continuous. It's an instantaneous measurement of the analog signal at regular time intervals. The digital signal at any point in time says nothing about the signal immediately before or after that point in time. The DAC "fills in the gaps" by interpolating a smooth and analog signal. If the frequency limit is half the sampling rate, that interpolation is perfect and there is only one unique analog solution to any set of digital samples. And that unique solution is a perfect reproduction of the original analog signal (within the frequency limit).

      Watch the first 10 min of this video. It explains it technically, graphically, and experimentally using an oscilloscope and both analog and digital signal generators.

    12. Re:Not really missing vinyl by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "It is simply not possible to get a full-wave 20kHz signal out of a standard 44kHz sample rate,"

      What the hell are you babbling about? A 44.1KHz system is band-limited to 22KHz and you can ONLY get a sine wave out with two data points!

      Jesus Christ already!

      What does "full wave" mean anyways? Are you one of those types that throws technical-sounding jargon around without a clue?

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    13. Re:Not really missing vinyl by itzly · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Around the 3:10-3:20 mark you can see both the LED on the blue case of the sampler indicating it is running at 44 kHz, and a moment later you can see it on his screen.

      unless the equipment is literally "making up" parts of the curve on the fly.

      In a way it is making it up, because it knows the signal is made from a combination of different sine waves between 0..22 kHz. Within that range, there is only one unique solution, and the machine knows how to find it.

    14. Re: Not really missing vinyl by k3vlar · · Score: 2

      This is my experience: https://twitter.com/t3rminus/s... Vinyl sounds better because constraints in the manufacturing process require the source material to be mastered differently, and (surprise!) people prefer things that weren't wrecked in the name of making it loud.

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    15. Re:Not really missing vinyl by doublebackslash · · Score: 5, Informative

      First I'd love to cite an extremely good video on this topic https://www.xiph.org/video/vid...

      I'll try to distil down the relevant portion here.
      Nyquist showed us that a bandwidth limited signal sampled by a discrete time system can be reproduced perfectly using 2n samples per unit time where n is the bandwidth of the signal in hertz.

      Perfectly isn't hyperbole here. That is mathematically shown.

      The other half of digital audio is the accuracy of measurement of those discrete samples. “Bit depth” or bits. While we can reproduce a signal perfectly with perfect samples there is some noise that is added by imperfect sampling of a signal. This is mathematically identical to tape hiss and can be manipulated to less noticeable frequencies using a technique called dithering.

      Digital audio can and does faithfully reproduce the original signal with levels of noise below human perception even at a meager 16 bit depth and 48KHz sampling rate (44.1 is also very popular but 48 allows easier low pass filter design).

      The stair-steps don't come out of the audio jack, the signal is reproduced by the imaging circuit.
      Fast attacks that fall “in-between” the samples are NOT delayed or lost since, again using Nyquist, the signal can be perfectly reproduced (and this is demonstrated directly in the video).

      There is a lot of myth and misunderstanding when it comes to digital audio, and there is a lot of truth too. The loudness wars, as other posters have pointed out, has done more to damage the reputation of digital audio than anything else and there are plenty of examples of compressed (both kinds) audio sounding just terrible. One being too low a data rate combined with a terrible encoder, the other just using a small fraction of the overall dynamic range. Those are real issues but they aren't fundamental to signal reproduction.

      Hope that explains some of it!

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    16. Re:Not really missing vinyl by ponos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it were that simple, we could also completely emulate any instrument like a piano or a violin. Electric pianos can do wonders (I own one) but they can't copy the real thing (which I also own). The point is that a turntable is, in that sense, a complex transformation, like an instrument. You may like it or hate it, but it isn't that simple to emulate.

      That being said,I'm sure people have mentioned the simple pleasure of actually owning stuff (instead of a virtual license to some bits on some server). Vinyl has that.

    17. Re:Not really missing vinyl by present_arms · · Score: 2, Informative

      I can, and have done since 1985 with my first Philips cd player, I have been tested to hear from 17Hz to 22Khz also medically, I can honestly tell the difference easily on say Enya orinocco flow, the one on the original release CD has bass that goes to around 18Hz the one on the "Best of" cuts off at around 25Hz and the treble is sliced too. To most that use crap mp3 players or midi HIFI 's the difference is small, but for someone who has a decent system it's like night and day.

      --
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    18. Re:Not really missing vinyl by rnturn · · Score: 2

      It's not the digital format that produces "the watery tones of overcompressed music". It's crap engineers and (IMHO, mainly) crap producers that create the atrocities that are most of today's music. I have some early CDs made back when the format was new that are a treat to listen to. I also have a few CD titles that I have two copies of: the original garbage CD release and a remastered version that the artists got re-released after being engineered by someone who knew WTF they were doing and was more concerned with the quality of the resulting sound than by a rush to get it out the door.

      I also have a ton (I haven't weighed the lot but it would surprise me if that wasn't a literal assessment of the quantity I have on the shelves; it sure feels like that much when I have to move them) of vinyl that I still enjoy listening to. Having to get off my rear after 20 minutes or so to flip to side B is not such a big deal. The occasional pop and tick due to dust isn't all that much of a deal either. What does make me sad is how certain vinyl recordings have deteriorated with age because of the substandard material used in the pressings (it seems to result in an overall increase in the background hiss and pops and ticks of a much higher frequency than one gets from a dust particle). Unfortunately, these are recordings that will likely never be released in a digital format.

      I love the comment about the social activity of gathering around a turntable to listen to a record. How many people actually do that with a CD or, especially, an MP3?

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    19. Re:Not really missing vinyl by rnturn · · Score: 2

      ``There is great hope that once broadcast stations have adopted new loudness measurement standards like EBU R128 the problem will vanish over time.''

      Probably not. Have you heard what's on most radio stations nowadays? It's 50% commercials that are mixed to sound louder than the next guy's commercials. Who's going to listen to a radio station that plays music with a high dynamic range only to have their eardrums blown out when the station switches to a five-minute long block of commercials? I've given up on the vast majority of radio stations because of the quantity of commercials. That and the constant playing of the same "hits" ad nauseum. The major exception is a classical station I can pick up that has announcer-read commercials. I can't imagine how bad that station would sound if some outfit like Clear Channel ever got its mitts on it.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    20. Re:Not really missing vinyl by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You ain't telling me nothing because I have a customer who has all the early Kiss albums on the very first CD releases and he came to me complaining that "These new CDs don't sound right, I think my PC is messed up" but when I threw an MP3 rip of Strutter from his first run CDs in Audacity? There was peaks, valleys, actual HEADROOM on the recording. Took the exact same song from the exact same album from his recent box set? it was just a fucking wall, literally it was just slammed to the max from the first note to the last and sounded like shit.

      So if you like classic albums? Get 'em on the first CD releases, you can probably find 'em on eBay. Avoid any new releases like the plague as the loudness war just shits on every thing it touches. Didn't matter the artist either we tried several from his collection and it was all the same, the first run CDs sounded great while the later releases? Garbage.

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    21. Re:Not really missing vinyl by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      This is why I only purchase used CD stamped in 1999 and earlier, then rip to FLAC. DONE!!! I pretend all other CDs made after that don't exist. HDTracks.com has some decent material too. If you've got the DAC, 192k / 24bit is available. But again as you've pointed out, it's all about the mastering.

      --
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    22. Re:Not really missing vinyl by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      Modern audio ADCs and DACs use delta-sigma technology, which does most of the filtering in the digital domain.No significant analog filtering occurs in the 20kHz-22kHz region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation

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    23. Re:Not really missing vinyl by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the early days of CDs, delta-sigma devices were not always used. Some systems used a true analog 44.1 kHz sampling rate using high precision devices from Burr-Brown and others. These devices would indeed produce stair-step patterns, and even with severe analog filtering some 22.05 kHz and aliased nearby frequencies would appear in the output. Young people with exceptional hearing could detect it, particularly after some training.

      Technology has improved, and it's no longer difficult to design a system without that problem, but there was a time when it was a problem.

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    24. Re:Not really missing vinyl by Pentium100 · · Score: 2

      However, watching a file play is much less fun than watching a tape reel or a record spin. Sure, when I am doing something else while listening to music, I can listen to a file just as well (or may still listen to an analog recording since my file collection and my analog collection have different music). Also, when listening to files, I am sometimes too tempted to just skip songs, but I can't do that on a tape (need to keep the winding even, so I refrain from fast forwarding) so I listen to the entire tape.

      Speaking of just audio quality - I have a couple of tape recorders with vacuum tubes that from an objective point of view sound worse than my tape decks with transistors - smaller frequency range, more noise, higher distortion). However, playing an old recording (say, the Beatles or something like that), it does sound "better" to me and is more enjoyable to listen to, than, say, playing it on a more modern tape deck.

      I have a cassette with 50s rock&roll on it. Playing it on my usual system is OK, but if I connect the cassette deck to my tube radio from 1964 it sounds great! More modern music sounds better on my usual system though.

  2. not lossless by itzly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Vinyl is the only consumer playback format we have that's fully analog and fully lossless

    The article itself gives plenty of examples why vinyl isn't lossless, and it's easy to name a few more.

    1. Re:not lossless by FalstaffsMind · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My daughter is into vinyl and I understand why. It's not necessarily about sound quality, although songs produced for MP3 are clearly produced differently. They are optimized for ear bud listening as opposed to being played on an old pair of floor speakers. The sound tends to be unabashedly electronic and lacks the lushness of old recordings. What really make vinyl attractive is the experience of going to the record store with friends, leafing through the albums and finding one you want. Then taking it home, and listening to it with your friends, not just the hits, but the whole album. You become a fan of a band, and not just songs. Then there is the album art. Back in the day, that was part of the reason you bought a record. Album art was an expression of the band just as much as the music was. I think a good analogy is the people who prefer books to reading on a Kindle. Sure, it's the same text, but for many people, there is something undefinable missing when they read on a Kindle. There is something about the cover, the turning of the page, the smell. And that undefinable something makes it better.

    2. Re:not lossless by Scottingham · · Score: 2

      Exactly! I was going to say something along these lines. I truly think it's less about sound quality and more about the experience and tangibility of the records. In this digital age tangible products have a much higher value. You can have 30k mp3s and not really feel a huge attachment to them (and they can all disappear in the blink of an eye). The album art is also actually visible (compared to CD cases). The social experience of dropping the needle and hanging out with friends is also a lot of fun. A stack of records to go through on a Friday evening is great.

      Record stores are also a great place to find new music as many have listening stations where you can listen to the actual record you intend to buy. None of that kiosk 30 sec sample of the middle of the song garbage.

    3. Re:not lossless by Dogtanian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Vinyl is the only consumer playback format we have that's fully analog and fully lossless

      The article itself gives plenty of examples why vinyl isn't lossless, and it's easy to name a few more.

      This comes across as a second-hand, simplistic interpretation of something that was a fallacy to begin with. This is a fallacy that's either explicitly or implicitly used as the (flawed) basis of arguments, even on Slashdot.

      The fallacy is that because "analogue" as a *purely abstract* concept can in theory have infinite precision- as opposed to digital (which by definition has a clearly-defined level of precision)- then an analogue medium like vinyl records must inherently be able to hold more detail than a digital one like (e.g.) compact discs.

      Problem is, that argument could then be applied to any analogue medium (not just vinyl), so that e.g. a cheap, worn-out audio cassette recording made on a portable recorder in the early 70s must also be inherently superior to a CD, or even to a 24-bit, 96KHz digital master(!!!)

      This makes the flaw in the argument more obvious, but it's still a flaw when applied to vinyl. The problem is that we're talking about actual, real-world examples of analogue media, not the abstract concept. In real life, no analogue medium can have infinite bandwidth, so they quite obviously *do* have inherent limits of precision and quality- just not as clearly delineated as those of digital. (*)

      Of course, you might argue that we could engineer our analogue media to higher standards... but similarly, we could (theoretically) engineer a higher resolution and sampling rate into digital media, so there is no inherent argument in that either way.

      Furthermore, by definition, a "perfect" analogue copy would require infinite perfection in the duplication process (clearly impossible) and the ability to verify this to infinite levels of precision (ditto). So by definition *any* analogue copy will be imperfect.

      This isn't to say that CD is better than vinyl, or that digital is better than analogue. Maybe vinyl *is* better... maybe not. What it *is* saying is that the "analogue is infinite and digital is limited" argument *in itself* is flawed, and not a valid basis for drawing a conclusion either way. One can make comparisons where either is the clear winner- a good quality analogue turntable setup (and LP) will quite obviously sound better than a grungy 4-bit digital sample "bit bashed" through a C64 or Atari 800 sound chip. But the aforementioned 24-bit, 96KHz digital master will blatantly knock spots off an analogue C90 cassette recorded in 1973.

      (*) One may be scientifically able to calculate the meaningful upper limit of cassette bandwidth and the noise floor by (e.g.) looking at the maximum theoretical magnetisation possible, spacing of the grains, et al... both in theory and in practice. I can't tell you what those limits are, but I can be quite confident that they'll exist, and hence dictate the maximum sound quality.

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  3. One word: by Exitar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hipsters.

  4. Nitche Market by fred911 · · Score: 2

    Someone still makes buggy whips. If an infrastructure and supply line is established to fill the current market demand, that's where it ends. There's no growth here..

      The fact is that given the same source content, high quality digital copies are by far higher quality, have better SN ratios and dynamic range than vinyl is capable of delivering, with a media that doesn't degrade the minute it's used.

      It's not realistic to compare a highly compressed MP3 to vinyl. Compare a lossless audio file to vinyl and you'll find it to be significantly higher quality. Even if you don't believe the math.

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  5. Not convincing at all by paskie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Audio is just a crazy world of snake oil and placebo.

    Really, the argument that's supposed to convince us is this?

    > That warm vinyl sound: "I think this is what people like about it: it pins very closely to the way that human beings hear music organically," Gonsalves said. "It's very mid-range-y and very warm," a sound that flatters the fuzzy guitars of rock 'n' roll.

    I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. There seems to be no obvious reason why you couldn't easily hack up a digital audio filter that makes stuff "sound like a vinyl". I'd even wager that it already exists?

    Especially when you skip the compression and use FLACs. (But no, I'm not that kind of person who would claim to be able to distnguish 320kbps mp3 from a FLAC.)

    --
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  6. Some by Chas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Some listeners think that vinyl reproduces sound better than digital

    And some people buy Gold-plated Monster cables and Macs too. It just proves there's a sucker born every minute (at least).

    some youngsters like the social experience of gathering around a turntable.

    That's mainly because most youngsters' "social experience" has been limited to school (see "Lord of the Flies") and texting. Actually, y'know, MEETING UP with someone is a HUGE novelty these days. The turntable's just incidental.

    --


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  7. Just part of the complexity collapse by Sqreater · · Score: 4, Interesting

    People are starting to draw back from the overwhelming complexity in all things.

    --
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    1. Re:Just part of the complexity collapse by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3

      Maybe to a mundane person, but anyone with at least the curiosity of a mollusc might try to understand something beyond the level of the UI.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
  8. Re:Sounds Better? by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No need to spend $5000 on a DAC. The chips themselves are less than $5 a piece, and will get you 384 kHz, 32 bit stereo. Microelectronics has improved so much the last couple of decades, but if people are still willing to pay '70s prices for stuff, somebody will find a way to charge that amount.

  9. Guy making mint on vinyl says vinyl better! WOW! by Chas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Meanwhile, an industry pro WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN THE SUCCESS OF VINYL offers his take on the endless debate of audio differences between analog records and digital formats

    There. Fixed that for you.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
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  10. I never understood the warmth argument by aepervius · · Score: 2

    To me , those "warmth" argument are really about psychological bias. Sound warmth is one of those term which are never really defined properly and means everything and nothing. The only really objective measure is amount of noise , and fidelity compared to the original signals. I have never met an analogue system (even a high range one) which objectively reproduced the sound as good as a digital HD one could. Not to mention you better replay your LP in vacuum , because no matter how careful you will to clean it, you will get snaps, pop cracks, dust, flutter, variation speed, etc...

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  11. NO DRM! by TarPitt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The best thing about an analog format is no digital rights management. You buy it, you own it. You will always be able to listen to it, no-one will be able to revoke your license.

    Digital formats and DRM have made music a transient, throw-away experience.

    With vinyl, the recording has history. The vinyl you buy in middle school will be still playable in middle age.

    --
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    1. Re:NO DRM! by itzly · · Score: 2

      The vinyl you buy in middle school will be still playable in middle age

      Except for the fact that it will be worn down.

  12. Re:Sounds Better? by dotwhynot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't have a horse in either race, but I'm curious - Have any blind studies been done to determine if vinyl does indeed sound better? My audiophile father-in-law would tell you HD-CD sounds better than vinyl, but I don't have the ears to tell either way...

    Yes. These are from my days of reading high-end hi-fi magazines that don't have the content online, so I don't have links, but one of the more definitive double blind studies proved that people who claimed they preferred the LP sound over CD (including both "golden ear" audiophiles and professional sound people) indeed were able to reliably identify and prefer the LP sound in controlled double blind experiments. But, when the same experiment compared with CD-R recorded from LP as source, they were not able to identify the difference at all. CD-R from LP as source was equally preferred over CD as LP.

    This corresponds exactly with the science of the technical characteristics of the two technologies, signal theory and human hearing. The "warm, analogue" LP sound carried perfectly over to the CD-R, as it is distortion characteristics of LP playback that CD is perfectly able to replicate (Nyquist theorem).

    HDCD is a different discussion. I was myself a HDCD supporter in my (luckily now behind me) audiophile days. But HDCD mainly sounded better because the mastering was better, not because of technical specs of the format. HDCD productions took greater care with quality of mastering, not at least avoiding the overuse of dynamic compression.

  13. Put your money into speakers by retroworks · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ah, yes.... I rather vaguely remember a series of experiments I attended a couple of decades ago. My colleagues and I participated in several hours-long, herb-fueled, analysis sessions comparing cassette tape, CDs, and vinyl, with and without equalizers. We listened in sessions controlling for acoustic, heavy metal, synthesizer, etc.. I'm pretty sure the committee's conclusion was "put the money into the speakers". But I think we forgot to write it down anywhere.

    --
    Gently reply
    1. Re:Put your money into speakers by clonehappy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a youngster growing up in the 1980's, countless dozens of hours were spent both in my own basement and the basement of my childhood (well, still) best friend's parents house listening to vinyl, cassettes, and analog FM radio. I later became a smalltime audiophile, I don't buy Monster Cable or equipment that costs more than 4 figures, but I still enjoy a good audio listening experience.

      About 5 years ago, my friend's parents finally retired and I was around to help them move out west. While the old Pioneer receiver we used to jam out on had long since died or been retired to the local landfill, the off-name floor speakers were still there. I believe one had the same old lamp sitting on it that it always did, and the other one was just sitting there in the corner. They told me to put them out to the street.

      Of course, they went in the trunk of my car, where I promptly took them home and stored them in my garage. This summer, as the garage had now collected enough surplus computer and electronic equipment to need it's twice a decade cleaning, I found the old "Utah" speakers and decided to hook them up to my receiver and see if they were dead or alive. I flicked on the local "oldies" station (meaning 70's and 80's music now) and I was immediately transported back in time. Radio still sounded today like it sounded back in 1986. The speakers provided all the "warmth" and "fullness" that people are always chasing after.

      This may sound like a no-brainer, but speakers determine what you hear. Those speakers are now a permanent fixture out in my garage/man-cave. No, they don't sound like any of the big-name equipment I run in the home theater. But they are immersive with only 2 channels in a way a 9.2 surround system can never match. And when I sit outside on the weekend, enjoying a few beers and some (sometimes herb-fueled) tinkering with Linux boxes and electronics, to me at least, it's like going backwards to a time when things were still exciting, the guy on the radio was someone everyone knew, and you had the whole world in the palm of your hand.

      I do apologize for waxing nostalgic on a public forum, and I do love my new technology, but damnit sometimes it's nice to just sit back and enjoy something simple that you love. I can understand the value to youngsters of sitting around listening to a piece of tangible vinyl that you can hold in your hand, look at the album art, read the lyrics (all without a LAN connection or Wi-Fi AP being involved) rather than some logical arrangement of bits on a chip or spinning platter. So yes, of course, put your money into speakers (or vinyl, or whatever makes you happy)! I recommend garage sales, swap meets, and flea markets!

  14. Also, DJs by Voyager529 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While "Hipsters" is the go-to answer to why vinyl records are all the rage, DJs are another part. Some songs are still pressed on 12" singles (most commonly EDM and hip-hop; frequently with instrumental versions as well), but the best selling vinyl pressing for quite some time now has been the Serato Timecode record. It allows DJs to use standard Technics 1200s (and newer models, like the Numark TTX and the Reloop 7000s) to still spin and scratch records, but without being limited by what's actually being pressed because it manipulates MP3 playback on a computer.

    Amongst the reasons these records sell so well is because instead of having hundreds of records that get 1-2 plays a night, the same pair of records are played all night, so it's entirely realistic to go through a pair a month, depending on how much pressure is put on the needle. Serato is (or was-for-a-very-long-time depending on who's numbers you believe) the most popular DVS platform, with Traktor in second place, though it's more popular with DJs who use (MIDI) Controllers instead of vinyl. Serato and several other DJ software titles now support the vast number of controllers that have been released, so overall interest in DJing with timecode vinyl isn't quite as popular as it once was. Still, while Jack White’s Lazaretto sold over 75,000 copies this year, it pales in comparison to the number of club jocks who buy timecode records, in pairs, monthly.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  15. Warmth and Vinyl compression and more by doginthewoods · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Having been around mastering engineers and lathes "back in the day", and during the change over from tape to digital, I can contribute a couple of points: 1 -tubes - for a long time lathes, and mastering consoles used tubes which naturally warm up sound. Tubes handle even harmonics differently from solid state. Mastering consoles also used stepped EQ's - that is, instead of a continuously variable resistor, they used a gang of military spec resistors on a rotary switch, and some mastering engineers swore the stepped mastering consoles sound better. 2 - LPs come compressed- way back it was discovered that the needle couldn't track lows and highs well - the needle would skip and bounce, so the RIAA came up with this compression / restoration scheme that rolls off the top and bottom during the cutting process, and restores it in the amplification process. That is why you LPs will sound thin if they are not plugged in to "phono in". That input has the RIAA curve circuitry built in, while the other inputs are "flat". With the development of laser beams in place of a needle, tracking is more accurate, but, because of the cutter. the RIAA curve is still needed. 3 - and one other thing and that is tape. Almost all LPs are made from recordings made on magnetic tape, and tape saturation will warm up a track. The signal alteration during the recording process - from microphone to console (desk) and through signal processors, to multi track tape machine to 2 track mix down, then over to the mastering lab to be mastered and made ready for the cutting lathe - a master cut onto acetate, then metal copies of that are made for the pressers, which use injection molded vinyl to create the finished product, is way different. Today, it's microphone into a digital recorder of sorts - Pro Tools, Cubase, even Garage Band, etc., then completely produced and mastered and outputted in digital. The only issue is file format degradation if the end product winds up as an MP3 or 4.

    --
    Republican leadership = Idiocracy
  16. Loudness race by tepples · · Score: 3, Interesting

    CDs were mastered without too much level compression until roughly the advent of the Discman and other portable CD players. The cheap op amps used these players couldn't drive headphones at a volume that overcomes outdoor background noise. So labels started using level compression to master their albums hotter. Pushing everything up to full scale meant kick drums no longer had any punch to them. By the time of Californication by Red Hot Chili Peppers and Ricky Martin's debut album, levels had become so hot that they were audibly clipping.

    1. Re: Loudness race by AvitarX · · Score: 2

      That's not how I remember 1999. Mp3s that's weren't garbage were hard to come by, syncing large collections was super slow, even disk space was somewhat relevant back then.

      The flash based long life players had essentially no storage.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  17. both subjective and objective... by jasno · · Score: 2

    I always hate these kinds of discussions when there are too many engineers in the room. Of course, digital is better. You can prove it with Nyquist's theorem. In the long run, digital will win.

    That said, there are numerous implicit signal-changing steps which tend to happen with analog equipment that people often find pleasing and which are not/haven't been sucessfully emulated in most digital audio equipment.

    Take guitar amps. I've got a couple of decent Roland digital amps. They do an OK job of modelling a few different old tube amps. Do they sound like my friend's old blackface quad reverb? Oh god no. There is some magic going on there that the digital guys haven't figured out how to reproduce. Even vs. odd harmonics? Yeah I think we get that now, but there's more in there and we're not successfully modelling it. I can enumerate a lot of factors we're probably missing(power supply brownout at high volume, capacitive and inductive feedback loops, tube nonlinearities, transformer nonlinearities, temperature fluctuations, microphonic components... etc etc etc) but there are still more we haven't really considered yet.

    That said, there are still people who prefer solid-state guitar and HiFi sound to analog colored sound. A lot of it is what you're used to. People hear different things, sometimes due to culture, sometimes due to physiology... it's complicated.

    Back to vinyl records - they do have a nicer sound in many cases, clicks and pops aside. It's probably a result of the RIAA EQ and the physics of a needle riding over vinyl, but I don't really know. One thing I do think has value is the act of listening to a complete record. Not only are you appreciating the artists' complete work as they intended it, the ritual of listening to a record often entails setting aside time and space to solely enjoy that record. You can't compare listening to, say, Dark Side of the Moon, while lying on your couch in a dark room to listening to a few out-of-context songs on your headphones while riding a bus.

    Whatever... we aren't going to solve this battle on /.

    --

    http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
  18. Re:Sounds Better? by Kohlrabi82 · · Score: 3, Informative

    It is well known that differences in audio quality between digital formats (CDs, MP3, FLACs, etc.) to Vinyl are due to different mastering for the respective media. HA has also set up a wiki page regarding misconceptions about Vinyl mastering and Vinyl as a medium. Vinyl is an inherently flawed medium, with problems like wear, necessitating expensive gear and knowledge for playback, and low audio quality compared to digital media. That some people still prefer Vinyl releases shows that they either don't really have good hearing, or that contemporary music is mastered so that a medium with roughly 13 bits of dynamic range is sufficient for even "critical" listeners. That means CD quality audio is simply excessive for that audience. Interestingly enough the same Vinyl crowd will glady buy 24bit/192khz releases, which are even more excessive.

  19. Hearing evolution in action by nospam007 · · Score: 2

    "Some listeners think that vinyl reproduces sound better than digital,"

    No, it's just that this generation has got hearing damage from the free, crappy, white iPod/iPhone earbuds and MP3s rely on a normal hearing capability.
    So this sounds different for them.

  20. Re:I like my men in vinyl whilst having the homose by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not to mention how the hell are we gonna clean weed on CD covers or iPods?

    You could de-seed a whole oz. in 5 minutes on a good double album and a card back in the day.

    But then, the weed today isn't half seeds like it used to be, either...

    --
    -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
  21. Re:clarity - wrong assumption by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

    CD's however can (and do) have built in hidden signals that allows the software police to track the origin of any ripped tracks.

    Feel free to prove me wrong, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they can't (and don't). CDs are mass produced from glass masters. How could they have "hidden signals"?

    Once ripped and compressed, sure, you're going to see differences between files of the same track (unless the same software was used with the same settings, and the rip was error free).

    Not sure how practical any "tracking" would be, either - at best, finding the same rip on two computers tells you... well, it tells you that it's the same rip. It doesn't really tell you anything about how it got there, and it certainly doesn't tell you that it came from computer A to computer B.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  22. Time for modern analog formats by iamacat · · Score: 2

    Maybe modern hi def digital audio formats exceed anything that can be practically extracted from vinyl. But, we could do things with equally modern analog technology that would blow digital out of the water. Imagine a physical family photo that you can hang on the wall, but also high resolution enough to make 100x magnified reprints with simple optical equipment. Now add a reasonable assurance that a photo will be still viewable after 100 years for your grand-grandchildren. Magnification may degrade, but whatever is left can be accessed with hardware made based on simple instructions. How do you like the chances of preserving and especially being able to read and display a JPEG over that timeframe?

  23. Tick (1.8 sec), TICK (1.8 sec), tick (1.8 sec) by dpbsmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Different technologies have different characteristics, and I guess one has to use one's personal weighting function. I had a pretty good system (AR turntable, top-of-the-line Shure cartridge, electrostatic earphones) and I love digital audio and honestly don't know how anyone can stand vinyl.

    I used a dust bug, I used a DiscWasher, I treated my records very carefully, but there always came the dreaded moment when I would hear: "tick." And at that point, I'd always tense up, and only relax 1.8 seconds later if I didn't hear a second "tick." Three consecutive "ticks" 1.8 seconds apart would seriously interfere with my enjoyment of the sound. My success rate on removing them by cleaning was very low--more often then not, the cleaning attempt (even with the best D4 fluid etc.) would simply add a very delicate, light background crackle.

    And I am not even talking about tape hiss, surface noise, warp wow, rumble, and a little trace of 60 Hz hum that I never could quite get rid of. And ugh, getting to the end of a symphony and having the big loud glorious coda come up in the inner groove (vinyl was pretty good at the outer edge, but no-kidding-obvious-problems in the slower-moving inner grooves).

    And taking the occasional bad pressing back to the record store and arguing with the store clerk about exchanging it.

    And changing the darn record every 20-30 minutes... and feeling guilty if I left it unattended and came back later to find it had been playing the end-groove for hours.

    Even with a good tonearm and lightweight cartridge, vinyl does not sound as good on the tenth playing as it did on the first.

    Digital audio may have its faults and if people enjoy the characteristics of vinyl, there can be no dispute about tastes. But to me the positives outweigh the negatives--by about a factor of ten.

  24. Benefit of Vinyl by MagickalMyst · · Score: 2

    The best thing about vinyl is the campfire effect. It comes built in. :)

    --
    Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
  25. Re: And 1...2...3... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

    Many young people can hear frequencies higher than the 22.05 kHz maximum of 44.1 kHz sampling. I could hear up to about 27 kHz at 30 years old; both I and a friend of mine found places with so-called ultrasonic alarms painful.

    Similarly, 16 bit audio is good for no more than 98 dB, but it's well established that the human audio dynamic range is at least 120 dB.

    If the tests are set up to make the differences between 44.1/16 and 192/24 easy to detect, many people can detect the difference. If the tests are set up to make the differences difficult to detect (for instance by trying to distinguish between two highly distorted highly compressed pop songs) it may be that nobody or only an extraordinary person can tell the difference.

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  26. The difference is the process involved. by blanks · · Score: 2

    I'm not going to bother touching on the ongoing debate of which sounds better or which format is generally better. I personally believe the difference of vinyl and other audio formats is the process involved with vinyl and the a lack of a better word the intimacy people have with it.

    I always tell friends who ask about my collection that vinyl is to digital media what home cooked meals are to microwave dinners. Some people don't like cooking and choose easy and fact meals they can just eat so they are no longer hungry. While other people enjoy the process of cooking for hours to make a meal they are proud of and enjoy. Is the home cooked meal better? To the person who cooked it yes it most likely is because of their involvement.

    These days with digital media you simply browse a site/app click a few buttons and the song or album is lost into your collection. It becomes background noise after listing to it a few times and has no real relevance to the person. With vinyl (specifically hard to find albums) a person can spend years searching for the album. They might go to stores weekly talking with employees and building friendships so they can get items held for them or called when a big collection just comes in, or spend hours walking around the city searching all the stores. Nearly all my records have stories like this.

    There is also the process of playing the albums vs simply hitting shuffle on your computer. You have to search your collection deciding what you want to listen to, start up your equipment, maybe you have to clean the record before hand. You also have a tangible object you need to interact with. There is involvement.

    So like I said; some people want quick and easy music that requires no involvement. Some of us do. I love the process and thinking about what I went though to get an album I'm listening to, or who I talked to when they suggested something or the show I picked the album up at. Personally I could care less if one or the other sounds better and I still personally listen to streaming music/mp3's when I simply want background noise, but when I want to listen to music I turn to my vinyl.

  27. When did you get into music? by clickclickdrone · · Score: 2

    A lot of this argument IMO hinges on when you grew up/got into music. I'm quite happy to accept (as an old git) that high resolution digital audio beats an album on vinyl hands down in terms of true fidelity. However, to *my* ears, because I grew up with vinyl, I find that sound more appealing and enjoyable. I have albums on everything from cassette, vinyl, CDs, MP3s to FLAC. Even some 24bit high res files. Yes, there's some incredible detail in there with modern formats. However, for whatever reason, I just don't enjoy listening to it as much. In many cases it's because they're mastered too hot and have stupid waveforms with almost no dynamic range, although the high res formats are better in that respect. I find vinyl just more enjoyable and relaxing to listen to. Plus of course there's the well worn stuff about the cover, reading the lyric sheet without a magnifying glass etc. As far as crackles/pops/wear and tear goes, I've got records that are nearly 40 years old but still more enjoyable to my ears/brain. It beats me how people's records get so beaten up, are they tracking too heavy? Pouring grit down the sleeve? Maybe 5% of mine from 30+ years ago have anything more than a little surface noise when the stylus hits the lead in groove. After that, no pops or crackles.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil