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Microsoft Gets Industry Support Against US Search Of Data In Ireland
An anonymous reader writes Tech giants such as Apple and eBay have given their support in Microsoft's legal battle against the U.S. government regarding the handing over of data stored in an Irish datacenter. In connection with a 2014 drugs investigation, U.S. prosecutors issued a warrant for emails stored by Microsoft in Ireland. The firm refused to hand over the information, but in July was ordered by a judge to comply with the investigation. Microsoft has today filed a collection of letters from industry supporters, such as Apple, eBay, Cisco, Amazon, HP, and Verizon. Trade associations including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Digital Rights Ireland have also expressed their support.
Surely there is some analog to 'extradition' for search warrants, isn't there?
The idea that any nation you happen to have a presence in can demand something you have in any other nation seems like an obviously dangerous shortcut to most-abusive-common-denominator law; but being able to black-hole anything just by shifting the VM across the border presents its own problems.
Is there actually no such instrument, and this sort of thing somehow hasn't come up enough to be settled, or did the Fed prosecutors just demand first and try tact later because they aren't exactly lacking for arrogance(or, in fairness, lacking for reasons to be arrogant, given how often they get away with it)?
And you think that somehow the ruling of a US court absolves Microsoft from Irish law?
Because that's a complete crock of shit, and the only way Microsoft in Ireland exists as a corporation is under Irish law.
So, I'm sorry, but a US court cannot compel a foreign citizen or corporation in that country to break local laws just because there is a relationship with a US company.
The problem is that a US court believes it has the authority to make Microsoft Ireland violate the laws of Ireland, when Microsoft Ireland isn't under the legal jurisdiction of that US court. And that's simply not true.
Microsoft is saying "If you want this, go to an Irish court, but don't demand that we break the law for you".
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The US cannot force a sovereign foreign company? The US can force (or "persuade") entire countries and groups of countries to dance when they play the pipe, you think this would change anything?
TTIP, anyone? So far I cannot see anything in there that is NOT exclusively beneficial to the US and puts everyone else at a severe disadvantage, but do you see any kind of protest against it from inside governments?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well, if the US get their way in this case, who in their sane mind would host it with a US company?
That's the main reason why the others side with MS in this one. If the US get their way, no company on this planet would touch a data center that is remotely in league with a US based company with a 10 foot pole.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Which is precisely what companies should have been doing as soon as America passed the PATRIOT Act, which pretty much spelled out their claim to be able to do this.
US based cloud services have been tainted for years now, only now people are starting to realize the truth of it.
Some of us have been saying this exact scenario would happen for years.
When the US government decided American companies were an extended part of the surveillance apparatus, American companies became so embroiled in this as to be laughable. There is no way you ca trust an American company if you're outside of America.
How do you think those stocks are going to fare when everyone cancels contracts with Microsoft et al and flips you the bird?
This is why it's laughable when America says they're the champions of Liberty and Justice -- because they're actively fighting anybody else in the world getting that, which means the rest of the world knows you're lying, and is starting to not give a crap about what America wants.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I think you nailed it on the head. I'm of the opinion that wherever the data resides is not relevant. If an individual resides in Ireland, the data should be under Ireland's jurisdiction and vice versa. I would consider company files to be under the jurisdiction of the country it's operated it ( I realize this can get difficult if companies run in multiple countries).
The fact is that more than 95% of the population isn't affected by this issue. It's only an issue when you end up in court and your data is required to be given.
The problem with data is that it can leave a country without the country's ability to intercept. This is very different than goods and money. If you cross the border with drugs and don't get caught, good for you but at least the country had the chance to prevent it. With data, there is no point at which the authorities have a shot at preventing it from leaving regardless of it's importance.
The fact here is that the individual(s) are refusing to provide access to the data voluntarily which requires the authorities to obtain it by force. This tells me there's something incriminating in the data which is why they didn't just hand it over.
Microsoft in Ireland may be a wholly owned subsidiary, but it is a separate legal entity operating under the laws of Ireland, and incorporated under Irish law. You can't bypass the Irish courts because Microsoft US owns Microsoft Ireland.
If I own a car located in Sweden, and I'm a US citizen in the US, arrested in the US... can the court compel me to make arrangements to produce for the court something in that car's glove box? I don't actually know...could one? Its not entirely unreasonable to speculate that they could make that demand and then hold me in contempt if I refused to make that arrangement.
Microsoft in Ireland may be a wholly owned subsidiary, but it is a separate legal entity operating under the laws of Ireland, and incorporated under Irish law.
According to you, it is also the legal property of Microsoft US. They don't need to compel the Irish to do anything. They can (arguably) simply compel the US entity in their jurisdiction to summon its own property.
If corporations are legally people [...]
They are clearly not the same as human people. For starters, you can own them as property.
Microsoft Ireland is 100% subject to applicable Irish law.
It is also subject to the orders of its owner, what with it being property and all. So as long a Microsoft US doesn't demand that it do something illegal by Irish law, it has to do whatever Microsoft US tells it to do.
I'm not arguing that you are "wrong" merely that your argument omits the crucial element of property ownership in play.
If so, this boils down to can a court compel a property owner to direct his property to do something (such as forward a document in that properties possession), even if the property happens to be in another country? (one could also substitute "property" for "slave" in that sentence... and
When looked at like that, its not really ridiculous at all.
This is not a case of a court making demands directly of an Irish citizen; which is the possible strawman you erected. This is the case of a court making demands of a US corporation. The nature of that demand is that the US corporation in turn compel its own property in Ireland to do its bidding.
It might seem equivalent in the end, but they are NOT the same thing. For example there is no way the courts in the USA can compel ME to do anything because I am not in the USA, nor am I the legal property of any entity in the USA.
I wish times were simpler and my country wasn't such a fucking arrogant, pushy, bastard.
TTIP doesnt put the US at an advantage, it puts companies at both sides of the atlantic at advantage against normal people.
If I own a car located in Sweden, and I'm a US citizen in the US, arrested in the US... can the court compel me to make arrangements to produce for the court something in that car's glove box? I don't actually know...could one? Its not entirely unreasonable to speculate that they could make that demand and then hold me in contempt if I refused to make that arrangement.
Depends on what is the car's glove box.
- If it's something that Sweden doesn't give a damn about (some trivial object), well you could produce it for the court, and the court might be unhappy if you refuse to produce it and actively make obstruction (if the court offer to send a swedish cop to retrieve the object and you refuse to give the key your are kindly asked to provide them, you're the problem)
BUT
- If it's something that is illegal to export out of the country according to Swedish or EU law (weapon, endangered specie, nuclear fuel, etc.), then you CANNOT LEGALLY produce it to the court. What the court is asking you is illegal in Sweden. If you do it anyway, you're going to have big problems with a Swedish court.
According to you, it is also the legal property of Microsoft US. They don't need to compel the Irish to do anything. They can (arguably) simply compel the US entity in their jurisdiction to summon its own property.
Sorry, no. They can't. It's not legal in EU countries (and a few other europeans countries) to move private data around without consent.
Microsoft US cannot summon data in Ireland, without the explicit consent of the data owner. If they move the data anyway, they can be sued in Ireland for it.
While in a foreign country, you cannot commit a crime (under that country's law), even if it's your home country asking for you.
(Otherwise, spying would be entirely legal: because it was done on the order of the spy's home country).
It is also subject to the orders of its owner, what with it being property and all. So as long a Microsoft US doesn't demand that it do something illegal by Irish law, it has to do whatever Microsoft US tells it to do.
But moving private data around without the owner's consent *IS* illegal in most EU and other european countries.
What the US court asks *IS* illegal in Ireland.
and the US court HAS NO power in Ireland. They are giving orders out of their jurisdiction.
If so, this boils down to can a court compel a property owner to direct his property to do something (such as forward a document in that properties possession), even if the property happens to be in another country? (one could also substitute "property" for "slave" in that sentence... and
When looked at like that, its not really ridiculous at all.
Except forwarding that document is absolutely illegal in Ireland.
It works better if you substitute "slave" in that sentence: What if there is no slavery in that country ?! What if all humans are considered free?
This is not a case of a court making demands directly of an Irish citizen; which is the possible strawman you erected.
No, but the data happens to be in Ireland, not in the US. Irish and EU law apply there. Nobody gives a damn shit about US there. Exporting the data IS illegal.
Again let's change the details. Let's take some Extremist / totalitarian government. The goverment asks one of its citizen to assassinate a target (that etremist / totalitarian regime has law that make this request legally binding and mandatory). The citizen then travels to US, and shoots the target: an innocent US citizen - who happen to have angered the government with some publication.
Is the assissnation legal, even if it was ordered according to the law of the extremist government? No, because that government has no jurisdiction in the US. In the US, US-law apply, and you are not allowed to shoot random inocent people, just because some other random dude accros
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