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De-escalating the Android Patent War

In 2011, a consortium formed from Microsoft, Apple, Sony, BlackBerry, and others spent $4.5 billion acquiring Nortel's patent portfolio, which contained a great deal of ammunition that could be used against Android. That threat has now been reduced. Today, 4,000 of the patents were purchased by a corporation called RPX, which has licensing agreements from Google, Cisco, and dozens more companies. [RPX is] a company that collects a bunch of patents with the goal of using those patents for member companies for defensive purposes. Even though RPX has generally been "good," the business model basically lives because of patent trolling. Its very existence is because of all the patent trolling and abuse out there. In this case, though, it's making sure that basically anyone can license these patents under FRAND (fair and reasonable, non-discriminatory) rates. The price being paid is approximately $900 million. While that article points out that this is considerably less than the $4.5 billion Microsoft and Apple paid originally, again, this is only 4,000 of the 6,000 patents, and you have to assume the 2,000 the other companies kept were the really valuable patents. In short, this is basically Google and Cisco (with some help from a few others) licensing these patents to stop the majority of the lawsuits -- while also making sure that others can pay in as well should they feel threatened. Of course, Microsoft, Apple and the others still have control over the really good patents they kept for themselves, rather than give to Rockstar. And the whole thing does nothing for innovation other than shift around some money.

63 comments

  1. It's not GOOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What it does is create a barrier to entry to a market and lock in the existing players. Instead of one patent covering an invention expiring after 20 years, an amorphous blob of non-patents is created to which the existing players join a pool.

    This is really no better than having one patent troll like Microsoft trying to block competitors with BS patents so weak it won't reveal them without an NDA. It's trying to hide weak patents in a fog of paperwork.

    The companies that bought into the patents are: 1) Confirming the validity of these junk patents ensuring troll MS continues to milk money for something it didn't invent, and 2) Ensures they will have the same trick to use against any new entrant.

    1. Re:It's not GOOD by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      They claim that the patents are only to be used in self defence, and Google has a good track record of sticking to that.

      Maybe you are thinking of Rockstar, the group that includes Microsoft and Apple, which does use patents to stifle competition.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:It's not GOOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One solution that has been adopted in other jurisdictions is to prevent non-competitive or non-practicing entities (e.g., trolls) from asserting patents against a practicing entity. The test could be as simple as a proof that the patent holder is actually practicing the claimed invention. In other words, use it or lose it.

      Such a showing benefits society two fold. First, if the patent holder is simply a holding company for patents, and therefore has no interest in cross-licensing and has no products related to an asserted patent, it is very unlikely the asserted patent has any value other than the nuisance value for a practicing entity to make an infringement allegation go away. Because the asserted patent has no real commercial value, the purpose of a patent--to give a patent holder exclusive rights in exchange for disclosure--is no longer applicable. Patents should not be enforceable in this circumstance. Second, if proof of practice is required, patent holders are more likely to allow premature expiration of patents that do not cover their products. This would reduce the cost of entry for new entities and promote competition.

  2. And the whole thing does nothing for innovation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    ...other than shift around some money.

    Well CHAA! That is the idea...

  3. Welcome to the sewing machine patent combine 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The half-ass libertarian volkh conspiracy solution to the patent crisis, only this time with more fraud, malfeasance and backstabbing (the "really good" patents not included in the combine absolutely will be used against participants if the incumbents feel threatened).

  4. Re:Android OS 12.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    12.1 is promised only as a bug fix release. I do not see debugging capability added.

  5. Value? by wisnoskij · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Without knowing anything about these patents it is impossible to put that value into perspective; Did MS just taking a tremendous loss or did they score big time? They paid 4.5 billion, now a few years latter how does that price look taking this sale into consideration? Did Microsoft end up losing their shirt, taking only like 20% of the cost for 66% of the patents? Or is and was 80+% of the value of the hoard in the remaining 33%?

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Value? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They sold the small fish at price value. This is de-escalating war in the sense you lose some soldiers so they won't fight any more.

    2. Re:Value? by mystikkman · · Score: 1

      It's interesting how it's Apple that mostly did everything and how the summary led people like you to mention only Microsoft. Typical biased Slashdot bullshit.
      Not to mention other companies are part of Rockstar like RIM, EMC, Ericsson, Sony. Apple bought some patents from Rockstart in 2012 for like $1B.

      From http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/...

      By the fifth round of bidding, it was Rockstar Bidco that decided not to submit a bid. This brought the group of bidders down to three: Google, Apple, and Intel.

      Then something really interesting happened.

      Following Rockstar’s seeming exit, Apple asked Nortel for permission to talk to the group about a possible partnership. This request was granted. Following these discussions, Apple decided they wanted to partner with Rockstar and adopt their name and transaction structure.

      Essentially, Apple decided to stake the Rockstar group in this high-stakes poker game.

  6. Re:America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take that!!

  7. Re:America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's terrorist propaganda!

  8. I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Dahamma · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Patents should be granted to an individual or their assigned company - and then NOT allowed to be transferred. If it's really intellectual property, require that it be used by the intellectual who came up with it, not randomly sold to some giant team of lawyers who try to "monetize" it 10 years after the fact.

    That would allow any person - or company that person worked for at the time - to take full advantage of the patent for its original purpose (since almost all patent trolls are not the original inventors) while preventing the soul-sucking leeches on innovation who just want to buy up a bunch of "intellectual property" and speculatively sue anyone who might be doing something remotely similar.

    1. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Dracos · · Score: 2

      That's a really good idea, but... cue inane "coprorations are people" counter-argument.

    2. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      But how does that change my point? (and I know you don't necessarily disagree...)

      Assign the patent to the corporation sponsoring the patent, fine, I agree with that. Just don't allow it to be transferred to another of those corporate peoples. Or hell, maybe if the corporation is bought outright, you could consider transferring *all* patents, etc. But the fact is many patent trolls just pick and choose absurd patents that their lawyers end up finding an angle that's good enough for the ignorant juries who decide the outcomes...

    3. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by unrtst · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's a really good idea, but... cue inane "coprorations are people" counter-argument.

      It's a crap idea. If patents could not be transferred, then if person X worked for company Y, and then went to company Z, they'd be taking the patents with them with no means to leave them with the company that was using them.
      Furthermore, it doesn't solve anything... company X can buy company Y and then give themselves free licensing rights and have their legal team take over suing others just as companies do now. If you're thinking, "you wouldn't be allowed to only buy the patents", that's trivial to work around... sell off all the other parts of the business, leaving only the patents, then sell everything that's left (just the patents).
      Regardless, one could still assign full rights to manage said patent portfolio to some 3rd party company. That would be nearly impossible to avoid - just consider the 3rd party as a bunch of lawyers and have them do all the same stuff those 3rd parties are doing today, simply leaving the actual patent assignment where it was.

      How about we modify that solution a little... (NOTE: this is a proposal, not a statement of the current situation)

      #1. corporations are not people (not sure which way you meant that counter-argument to read).
      #2. corporations can not hold patents
      #3. people can transfer patents to other people, or sell licensing agreements with terms of their choosing

      FWIW, I do not claim that would solve the problem either. I think that's better than the current situation, but it's still fairly easy to manipulate and end up in a functionally identical situation. Someone patents something while working for a company; company draws up paperwork to have a zero cost licensing agreement with that employee (or maybe gives them a bonus or something... up to them); company and employee could agree to sign over the rights to some other person at the company; company would essentially own the patent. There'd be more ways to get a patent out of the loop, but with the right paperwork in place it wouldn't matter.

      There are a bunch of real problems with the current system, but the ownership thing is really more of a symptom of those issues than an actual problem.

      * software patents. This is highly debated. IMO, these should go away completely. I'm speaking as a programmer, and I believe copyright is sufficient.
      * patent trolls. The solution that this article is referring to is actually just another form of patent troll. It's an entity that owns a bunch of patents, does nothing with them itself, and licenses them out. It's doing this for "good" here, but it's still charging a significant amount (kickstarter isn't going to get you access to these).
      * crappy patents. Far too many obvious ideas are allowed to be patented. This isn't really anything new. You should see how many patents existed for various paper clips. I'm not convinced that adding ridges to an existing paperclip design justified a new patent by a new owner, for example. There's an awful lot of grey area, and I don't have a very good solution for this - it's all just opinion.
      * bogus patents. Far too many are granted that have pre-existing implementations. On one hand, I think that, if the patent system can't keep up with the filings and do thorough checks, then they should charge more for filing so they can afford to do the checks. On the other hand, patents should be affordable for the average joe, else one of the primary purposes is complete dead. Perhaps it should be significantly easier and cheaper to challenge a patent without involving the owner at all (ie. send in a form, proof/examples of existing work, a check, and have it reviewed).
      * vague infringement claims. If some entity claims publicly that something/someone is infringing on a bunch of its thousands of patents, it should have to provide evidences and references of some degree. If they don't, it should be handled somewhat like slander. These threats disrupt the market and hurt others without

    4. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Patents should be granted to an individual or their assigned company - and then NOT allowed to be transferred.

      Nice try. So what justification are you giving for this? For example, if I made an invention that could greatly improve any smartphone, you are saying that it is essentially useless unless I start building smartphones and compete with Google and Apple? I'm not allowed to sell this invention to either of them? Please explain why that would be good.

      You are basically making sure that only big companies will ever be able to get patents and make use of them.

    5. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      For me, one of the solution would be to ask for the detail of all the work and expenses which lead to the creation of an idea when submitting it for a patent. If the patent is just about an idea someone had while eating lunch at a restaurant and only required only a few days of work to put it on paper, sorry, but no patent.

      Also, the value of the patent should be directly proportionate to the cost of developing the idea behind it. Patents should not be a lottery, they should only reward work.

    6. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by jareth-0205 · · Score: 2

      That completely ruins the one case which is commonly cited as the reason for patents... to protect the individual inventor. An inventor typically sells their patent to an entity that can actually do something with it (rather than having to build a business around it all on their own, which is probably not their skill). If a patent holder cannot licence or transfer their property then there won't be any point in getting one (or doing the work in the first place) and only companies will get patents.

    7. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If patents could not be transferred, then if person X worked for company Y, and then went to company Z, they'd be taking the patents with them with no means to leave them with the company that was using them.

      I don't think it's necessarily a very good idea, I think the problems with IP can be solved by shortening the terms of protection on both patents and copyrights, but I don't necessarily see this as a bug. Corporations should be encouraged to reward their employees fairly. Such a system would do that.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One unfortunate issue (among many) of the patent system is that it does not categorize patents and associate varying duration for them.
      I think it is fully understandable generally speaking for big pharma or small pharma to get rewarded with 20 years of revenue from them. If you spend an inordinate amount of money researching a new compound, physical apparatus, or other high investment research, this makes sense. We still need to drive the research incentive in key sectors and without protecting the inventor, this does not work in an economy-driven reward world.

      Software patents have been the issue and continue to be and they will consistently drive this behaviour from trolls. The finality needs to be either a drastic reduction of time for software patents (e.g. 5-10 years) or their downright elimination. I would be careful with eliminating them - there are legitimate inventions in the software world that belong to the patent world. Unfortunately they appear to account for less than 1% of the issued patents. Technology moves too fast for 20 years patent to be driving the world forward.

    9. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Unipuma · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with the whole patent thing, the more I hear about it, the more I get the feeling that the person it is supposed to protect (lone developers can't afford the patent process and large corporations lock the marketplace down with them).

      Still, if you have a patent, you don't need to sell it. You can license the patent. That what the whole idea was about. So you could make a great smartphone invention, have a patent, and Samsung and Apple would pay you money to use the patent without you having to sell it.

    10. Re: I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what stops someone from just making some story up? Because that is what's going to happen in exactly 100% of the cases. Just realize that the idea of patents is flawed and contorted. People copy and plagiarize ideas and inventions. That's the way society progresses. And the system is completely arbitrary too. If we're going to have patents, why not make them last forever and cover everything? Let every school pay a fee for teaching Newton's methods and algebra
        I'm sure there are lawyers who can manage a fund. Also, why limit it to ideas, why not licensing fees on physical objects? I'm sure the carpenters who build houses would love a yearly payment for each house they've constructed.

    11. Re: I'm starting to think it's this simple... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      If we're going to have patents, why not make them last forever and cover everything?

      Yes, there's not much logical reason to time limit the validity of patents, except perhaps the sky high pricing of patented goods. Maybe patented goods should cost less after a while, but not completely free like it is right now.

      Let every school pay a fee for teaching Newton's methods and algebra

      Algebra and Newton's methods are laws of nature and cannot be patented. However, the discoverers of these laws should be similarly rewarded using a different type of patent system. After all, the technological progress of the entire society is built upon just the works of these idea people, the scientists, mathematicians and patent holders.

    12. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Still, if you have a patent, you don't need to sell it. You can license the patent. That what the whole idea was about. So you could make a great smartphone invention, have a patent, and Samsung and Apple would pay you money to use the patent without you having to sell it.

      You can't sell a patent. They're not really "owned". (This always comes up, as if /. posters refuse to learn about IP law just like non-tech people refuse to learn about computers. Hrm...).

      Look at any patent and you'll see an inventor's list. That's who the patent belongs to. They're not transferrable.

      Instead, what IS transferrable is usage rights, aka licensing. And a lot of the time, the use rights are exclusive, because as an inventor, you control who can use it (the monopoly to use the patented invention is the inventor's).

      Of course, given a patent takes at least $10,000 to apply for and more if you need to defend and back-and-forth and patent attorneys, what happens is two fold.

      First, companies have an "assignment of invention" clause in their employment contracts - which at a minimum says anything you work on during working hours belongs to them. Including anything patented. Or in other words, they get a right to use your invention.

      Second, because a company is sponsoring your patent application, well, they make sure they get an exclusive license to your patent.

      So the patent's yours but by applying, your company already gets a right to use it, and by taking the company's money, that right becomes exclusive - you exclusively licensed the patent for them to use. And usually, that exclusive license you gave them is non-exclusive to them to re-license those rights to third parties. So as part of the company, they can license your patent to others.

      And that's really what gets "bought" and "sold" - the exclusive right to the patent. The original inventors, who have to be real people who worked on the patent (and more than one has been invalidated because inventors were either left off the list, or were because an inventor didn't really "invent" it, but merely worked with the technology) still "own" the patent, but their right to license has been extinguished due to other contractual agreements in place.

    13. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Not at all. There is a huge difference between *licensing* a patent and *selling* the patent. Licensing means someone pays you to use it. Selling it means someone buys it and can do whatever they want with it (and in fact, you have given up the right to use it).

      If you invent something, you can have an exclusive on it, or you can license it to companies that want to use it. That's how the system was INTENDED to work, and how it has worked for a ling time. Patent trolls (usually companies made mostly of lawyers) buying up large quantities of questionable patents and speculatively suing anyone with a remotely related product are a relatively new thing (largely enabled by the crazy vagueness of software patents).

    14. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Who said they can't license the patent? Of course they can license it, they just can't sell/transfer it outright, and none of the licensees can directly sue other companies for violating it. If anything that does protect the original inventor (or the original company it was assigned to).

    15. Re:I'm starting to think it's this simple... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      It's a crap idea. If patents could not be transferred, then if person X worked for company Y, and then went to company Z, they'd be taking the patents with them with no means to leave them with the company that was using them.

      You need to read what I said a bit better. Of course they can be assigned to the original company who funded the work (i.e. the employer of the inventor(s).

      company X can buy company Y and then give themselves free licensing rights and have their legal team take over suing others just as companies do now

      If a company completely *buys* another company, in effect it is now that company. But that would SIGNIFICANTLY cut down on patent trolls (the whole point of this) as it would make it a much more expensive, complex, and risky undertaking. For example. Google did buy Motorola, keep most of the patent rights, and sell of the rest - but it cost them MANY billions of dollars to do that (and luckily Google was just doing it defensively, though of course they could assert them).

      Regardless, one could still assign full rights to manage said patent portfolio to some 3rd party company. That would be nearly impossible to avoid - just consider the 3rd party as a bunch of lawyers and have them do all the same stuff those 3rd parties are doing today, simply leaving the actual patent assignment where it was.

      Why is it impossible to avoid? As part of not being able to sell/permanently assign the patents to that 3rd party company (i.e. the troll), it follows that only the original owner can actually sue for infringement. Again, the idea was trying to prevent patent trolls, not patents.

      And OBVIOUSLY it was all just a suggestion. No off the cuff 2 paragraph statement is going to solve patent trolling. But making it harder for the trolls to acquire them is definitely something to consider.

  9. Re:America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, it is the foundation of the nation that bailed out the people of Europe.

  10. The barrier has been there all along ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Disclaimer: I am a patent holder

    I entered the field back in the 1970's and guess what? Patents were already there !

    While it is true that patent trolling were not considered to be trendy back then, but the existence of patents in itself had already stiffen innovation somewhat

    While we geeks and nerds kept on trying out new ideas, the institutions (universities and research labs) we worked for were sweating bricks and had to check with their attorneys to make sure that we were doing did not trespass on somebody else' patents

    The idea of patents were good, when it was invented, however, that idea does not suit the present days environment anymore. Due to the abuse and trolling, patents have become a big hindrance to the society to move forward

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:The barrier has been there all along ! by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1, Interesting
      The idea wasn't even that good when it was invented.

      “The granting of patents ‘inflames cupidity', excites fraud, stimulates men to run after schemes that may enable them to levy a tax on the public, begets disputes and quarrels betwixt inventors, provokes endless lawsuits...The principle of the law from which such consequences flow cannot be just.”

      That is what the Economist had to say about patents... in 1851. The idea that inventors (both people toiling in their garage and Big Pharm companies spending billions on medical R&D) should be encouraged to invest their effort into research and share the results by allowing them to profit from them, is a valid one. But patents are, and have been for over a century, a particularly poor way to ensure reward for inventors without stifling innovation. And remember that patents were not even invented with the purpose of ensuring a profit for inventors; the purpose was to encourage inventors to share so that society as a whole might benefit. The inventor's profit was a means rather than an end.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:The barrier has been there all along ! by WaywardGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Patents back in the 1970s were only slightly broken compared to today. I've met several inventors or their relatives who invented things like milk cartons and every-day items we now take for granted. Up through the 1970s, "inventor" was a potential career path.

      That all changed rapidly starting in 1982, when Congress voted to give all patent appeal cases to a single appeals court in Washington DC. This court basically created the patent troll industry. Before 1982, trolls would have been thrown out of court. Since then, this court has become a puppet to the patent troll industry through something called regulatory capture.

      I wont go into the evils of software patents here. It is a regular flame topic on slashdot. However, we can blame this appeals court for them. Most recently, I was shocked when they changed long standing precident and declared that APIs are copyrightable, which if upheld, has potential to end software development as we know it.

      I have several software patents. We are required to get them for defensive purposes. This is essentially a lawyer's tax on the software industry, with zero benefit to non-lawyers, so far as I can tell.

      --
      Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
    3. Re:The barrier has been there all along ! by WaywardGeek · · Score: 1

      One more point... this patent pool thing is all bad, in that it keeps out new players, reducing innovation. Also, it does nothing to stop trolls, who have no product to protect. You can't counter-sue a troll, since they don't do anything, making it impossible for them to violate patents. Billions of dollars are being flushed down the toilet in this anti-innovation patent-lawyer shake-down.

      --
      Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
  11. Re:America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No way, man: that's racism, straight up.

  12. Patents... ugh by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Software patents are utter bullshit from word one. They should just go away and stay away.

    Hardware patents are something else, but it's pretty clear they are being *very* poorly managed. I don't even like saying it, but I'm afraid I agree with you: they do more harm than good now.

    We need an entirely new model of encouraging invention. Trade secret is useful in providing a reasonable profit window and establishment of precedence in the marketplace (the only way to go with software, as far as I'm concerned) as the window you get correlates well with the complexity of what you've done, but has its limits when we're talking hardware.

    Perhaps a way for society to pay for an invention, and once that's been done, it goes right into the "available to everyone" pool. Panels of experts setting perceived value and an immediate payment being made, followed by a revisit ten years later to determine how it all went, with extra reward possible if the invention's impact was underestimated?

    Look at me, suggesting government committees. Oy. I should go bang my head on a table.

    But damn, we *really* need to clean out the drains. Patents are the disgusting glop that are making the system run slower and slower, while getting legal sewage all over everyone involved. The only consistent winners here are the plumbers (lawyers.)

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Patents... ugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardware patents especially electronics are no good either. It is very much like software, implementing algorithm, you even use a programming language such as VHDL to implement them.

    2. Re:Patents... ugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A person's property is their property. No committee should be able to decide how much a patent (or any other property or possession) is worth and force a sale.

    3. Re:Patents... ugh by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Software patents are utter bullshit from word one. They should just go away and stay away.

      The main thing wrong with software patents is the nonobviousness bar. That bar should be a lot higher that it is before a patent is accepted. Something like the one-click patent should not be allowed.

      Hardware patents are something else, but it's pretty clear they are being *very* poorly managed.

      Digital hardware is not very different software, it's just more parallel and more limited than software.
      Verilog/VHDL are very similar to C/Ada.

      Perhaps a way for society to pay for an invention, and once that's been done, it goes right into the "available to everyone" pool.

      LOL, doesn't the current patent system already do that? Oh, you meant a system where the customers (society) decide the price of a patent and pay only once, like a salary. That's stupid, because customers will always low-ball what they want to pay, especially the open source folks, who think everything should be free. The price of any goods/service should be set by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer only has the right to buy or not buy. Anything else is fascism or communism.

      Panels of experts setting perceived value and an immediate payment being made, followed by a revisit ten years later to determine how it all went, with extra reward possible if the invention's impact was underestimated?

      LOLOL, nobody knows how much a patent is worth beforehand. It could be worthless, or a few bucks, or billions. Unless these experts are mind readers, there's no way they can estimate the price of the patent. You just want to create a system where the patent holders are royally screwed and you can get their ideas for cheap.

    4. Re:Patents... ugh by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      In this case, the 'property' in question is a license to have the government enforce a monopoly for you. In the case of software patents, it's not even the software itself that's being protected - it's the idea behind it. And the committees in question would not be deciding how much the software in question is worth - the software is not being bought or sold in these cases. They're deciding whether or not you can own the idea behind the software. Ideas as trivial as depicting progress by drawing a bar and then filling in a percentage of it. Y'know, like every 'charity goal thermometer' you've ever seen posted in a churchyard - except 'on a computer'. And then, again, 'on a phone'. It's utter bullshit.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    5. Re:Patents... ugh by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      The main thing wrong with software patents is the nonobviousness bar.

      It's bloody obvious you can write just about anything you're competent to write and that is possible to implement. That's the whole point of a generally programmable architecture. To then say, "look, ma, I wrote an algorithm!" and THEN expect that no one else is allowed to write the same thing... the only thing obvious about that is that it is stupid.

      Digital hardware is not very different software

      That's one case of doing digital hardware, and it doesn't address the 99% of the realm of other hardware. See, the problem here -- unlike software -- is that you don't get to make a very effective choice about the amount of resources thrown at the problem. I can attack the same software problem as a large corporation and even come out ahead, and faster. With hardware, that's not true. There are all kinds of limits from certifications (FCC, UL, etc.) to lab equipment to mechanical design, assembly, testing, prototyping, packaging, distribution and so on; patents exist in order to encourage the investments required to address those costs. For software, such encouragement is unnecessary. It doesn't face the same problems unless you choose that it does (mainly by hiring less effective programmers and/or constraining programmer options (like choice of language) and/or putting layers of management in the way of progress.)

      doesn't the current patent system already do that?

      No. The current patent system enforces a monopoly, and then you get to earn whatever. I'm suggesting that if the invention is found worthy, the government immediately pay the inventor based on an initial estimation, and then revise that upwards if called for when presented with sales and social data ten years later, and anyone can use the invention. So the inventor gets rewarded; the risks of commercializing land equally on everyone's shoulders. If the invention is worthy, that is, it can be sold at a profit, that'll probably happen. If not, well, phbbbt.

      That's stupid, because customers will always low-ball what they want to pay

      That's why the revisit. Show the data, get the pay.

      The price of any goods/service should be set by the seller, not the buyer.

      This isn't about the buyer or the seller or the manufacturer. This is about the inventor. We want things invented. We don't want monopolies. So if I invent a widget, I get paid for inventing it. Anything from $10 to whatever they think it's worth. After ten years, it turns out this thing was used *everywhere* (say it's in cellphones) then I get more. But that more came from legit sales of the device (taxed), a tax that is built into its cost and doesn't make it any harder for one little guy to make it , or a big corporation. Given that the sales are known, so is the recompense.

      nobody knows how much a patent is worth beforehand.

      Estimates can be made -- we do that kind of thing all the time -- and the revisit can ensure that the actual worth is eventually related to the reward.

      It could be worthless, or a few bucks, or billions.

      No invention is worth billions. Monopolies on inventions are worth billions. And we should get rid of those. Then if you can make billions off of sales of devices, fine. But everyone gets a chance at it, and the inventor is already compensated.

      You just want to create a system where the patent holders are royally screwed and you can get their ideas for cheap.

      No. That's nonsense. Use your head. I want the inventor(s) paid well, and I want it to be related to the actual value of the invention. What I want to eliminate is

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    6. Re:Patents... ugh by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      A person's property is their property. No committee should be able to decide how much a patent (or any other property or possession) is worth and force a sale.

      I reject the entire concept that an idea can be your property. The only thing about an idea that is of personal significance is that you might have it first. You can't prevent someone else from having the same idea, even if you never open your mouth about your idea. Because it's not inherently yours; it's just a product of thinking. Property can really only be physical.

      This is exactly the same as you liking chocolate, and then telling me I can't like chocolate for X years because you liked it first. Ideas are a product of the mind, and that's about all you can say about them in terms of where they come from. That doesn't lead to "property", in fact, since we all have minds, it leads precisely the other way. But the reason that monetizing ideas is encouraged is because some of them have the potential to advance society enough that it is thought that a period of monopoly is enough to justify everyone having access to that idea a bit down the road. The whole point is to make that idea available to everyone.

      Right now, society grants temporary monopolies for the one who seems to have been first to describe the idea (although they're not very good at determining that, they can't be.) You'll note that even under the current system, society does not create a situation where the idea is "yours", that is, it's not your property. All they're doing is saying, you lay out the idea in detail, we'll let you have a limited time to monetize it. After that, anyone can -- so it's not your property. What you get is an opportunity, one that comes at everyone else's disadvantage, and which can (and does) lead to zero progress at all if you sit on it. In which case, thanks for retarding progress we could have had, eh?

      I think offering a monopoly was a poor choice. If you have an idea, you should be able to do whatever with it. If I have or use the same idea, same thing. Being first shouldn't be worth much -- not a monopoly. Just enough to incentivize having ideas. Actually selling ideas -- that's where they have real value. So to maximize value to society, we should let anyone sell who feels they can make money doing so.

      There are lots of opinions on this. Now you know mine, that's all.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    7. Re:Patents... ugh by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Cut the time in half, simple as that. We had need for such a long length in the old days because of how long it took to make a prototype, build a factory, get a product to market, etc but today with 3D printing and factories for hire,FPGAs and SOCs? Going from finished design to working product in hand in under a year is totally doable. So cut the time in half with the option of being extended to current but with a significant cost in the form of a yearly renewal that doubles every year to discourage patent sitting.

      If one were to do this along with returning copyrights to their original 27 years? the world would be a better place and we would all be better off. Sadly with the amount of power these patents give the companies at the top? We have better odds of getting flying cars and sexbots than we do of having sanity restored to patents and copyrights.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    8. Re:Patents... ugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to admit, give me a sexbot that meets my expectations and desires, and I won't give a flying shit what the patent situation is. :)

    9. Re:Patents... ugh by gnupun · · Score: 2

      But everyone gets a chance at it, and the inventor is already compensated.

      And why should they get a chance? What exactly have they done to deserve this chance? Absolutely nothing, they are just a bunch of evil freeloaders! Well, the inventor has probably been compensated enough according to you, but not according to the inventor.

      I want the inventor(s) paid well, and I want it to be related to the actual value of the invention.

      To your perceived actual value of the invention? Why should anyone care? The price is set by whatever the inventor can get from the market, not that set by a committee of socialist morons.

      What I want to eliminate is the monopoly, because that's an albatross around everyone else's neck, a huge, hemorrhoidal, bleeding, infected open sore on the ass of progress.

      Maybe you should learn the ABCs of something before writing on the subject. Every company makes profits due to barriers to entry to competitors. Some examples of barriers are, access to huge capital, favorable real estate, good product design, smart employees, etc. And patents are another type of barrier to entry for competitors and they are completely legal. The intention of patents is that the person who invented the product or sold the invention to makes the profits and not someone who had nothing to do with it.

      Are you willing to share 10% of your salary with homeless people? If no, then why should any inventor share his invention with any other people?

    10. Re:Patents... ugh by gnupun · · Score: 1

      I reject the entire concept that an idea can be your property.

      It sure as hell is the property of the person who created it. What was your involvement/support in creating that idea? Nothing. Who made you and your kind god to decide what the price of such thing should be? By rejecting the notion of idea as property, you can steal it for free.

      Property can really only be physical.

      Property is composed of ideas + raw material. Most raw materials are cheap and plentiful on the planet, good ideas are not. The value of the product comes from the ideas that conceive it and the skill and labor that mold and combine the raw material into a product. Therefore you are paying for ideas and product manufacturing skill when you buy a product.

    11. Re:Patents... ugh by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      And why should they get a chance?

      Because it's just an idea. It's not property. Also because that's the ultimate intent of our system. Patent owners get a short-term monopoly, society gets the idea after that. I'm trying to formulate a way that the benefit to society arrives sooner, as does at least some of the reward for the inventor -- without in the process creating a coerced monopoly at all.

      To your perceived actual value of the invention?

      No, not mine. I am suggesting first as an estimate by a group of people who understand the technology and the relevant market(s) at the moment, pre-release, then later on, after its actual value has been demonstrated by adoption, in a much more precise manner.

      That business that starts ABCs is a complete strawman. I didn't say anything about legality. I'm proposing an alternate means of reward than monopoly. Also, the intent of patents was not at all what you say. The intention of patents was to obtain the benefits of invention for all of society, and in order to do that, a temporary monopoly on some rights in granted. Learn your history. Lastly, don't think to lecture me about business. I've run a few, still own three, and actually know a thing or two about profit, market and invention, among other things. From the constitution:

      [The Congress shall have Power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

      "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" is the point. Not your nonsense about "the person who invented the product or sold the invention to makes the profits and not someone who had nothing to do with it." Profit is used as the motive to get people to invent, so society (in other words, yes, people who had nothing to do with it) will benefit. Invention isn't protected in order that individuals profit. That's ass-backwards.

      Are you willing to share 10% of your salary with homeless people?

      Income, not salary. And we (the SO and I) do. Except it's more than 10%. And the majority of that is consequent to my own creative output, none of which was facilitated by patent monopoly. Presently, I give away *all* of my new creative output. Some of which is quite sophisticated; but none of which is anything someone else could not have done, either. I don't pretend to own ideas, even the ones I had first as far as I've been able to determine. I enjoy invention; I don't think invention confers ownership. I respect invention; I think it represents a great force for good. Monopoly, in my opinion, does not. Monopoly seems to me to be a force for retarding progress.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    12. Re:Patents... ugh by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      It sure as hell is the property of the person who created it.

      No. It's not. I can prove it.

      You think of X. You're happily sitting there thinking it's your "property." But Joe also thought of this. Do you imagine you now own "half" the "property"? Or that you both "own" all of the "property"? What if it's so obvious that everyone thinks of it at the same time? Whose "property" is it then?

      You see, it's not property. It's an idea. A flux of neural activity that you cannot prevent from happening in someone else's head. You can certainly pretend it's property, but none of logic or the legal system or the constitution supports that position, so I really don't see any reason to take your position seriously.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    13. Re:Patents... ugh by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Software patents are utter bullshit from word one. They should just go away and stay away.

      Hardware patents are something else, but it's pretty clear they are being *very* poorly managed. I don't even like saying it, but I'm afraid I agree with you: they do more harm than good now.

      We need an entirely new model of encouraging invention. Trade secret is useful in providing a reasonable profit window and establishment of precedence in the marketplace (the only way to go with software, as far as I'm concerned) as the window you get correlates well with the complexity of what you've done, but has its limits when we're talking hardware.

      Perhaps a way for society to pay for an invention, and once that's been done, it goes right into the "available to everyone" pool. Panels of experts setting perceived value and an immediate payment being made, followed by a revisit ten years later to determine how it all went, with extra reward possible if the invention's impact was underestimated?

      Look at me, suggesting government committees. Oy. I should go bang my head on a table.

      But damn, we *really* need to clean out the drains. Patents are the disgusting glop that are making the system run slower and slower, while getting legal sewage all over everyone involved. The only consistent winners here are the plumbers (lawyers.)

      I don't consider algorithms to be patentable. But I consider a process to be patentable. What is the difference? An algorthim is an application of a set of defined rules that presents a proof, a set of steps to follow to a solution. An algorithm may be copyrighted. A process is a application of a set of rules to define the control or manufacture of a product. (Driver for hardware, agricultural process, or manufacturing process, fabrication process). If we deem an algorithm a process, then the writing of a book has to be patented.

      Can the algorithm be the product? I am not a lawyer, and I leave that to others to interpret that interpretation.

      Software patents are utter bullshit from word one.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  13. RPX founders and Intellectual Ventures .. by lippydude · · Score: 5, Informative

    Nov 2008: "RPX is funded by Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers and Charles Rivers Ventures. Its two chief executives, John Amster and Geoffrey Barker, previously served as vice presidents of Intellectual Ventures, another company in the business of purchasing patents."

    1. Re:RPX founders and Intellectual Ventures .. by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      It's right in the article: "RPX is sort of the 'good version of Intellectual Ventures.'...it's making sure that basically anyone can license these patents under FRAND (fair and reasonable, non-discriminatory) rates."

  14. Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The current [software] patent system is flimsy beyond the point of any social utility whatsoever. It objectively serves no useful purpose remotely correlated with the goals of acclaimed IP laws.

    1. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The current [software] patent system is flimsy beyond the point of any social utility whatsoever. It objectively serves no useful purpose remotely correlated with the goals of acclaimed IP laws.

      Hmmm.. In other words, people and companies are only entitled to benefit from the value of their hard work and expenditures if it has social utility for them to do so?

      Well, I vote that there is no social utility in you having a computer, so I propose that the Socialist World Power place it to a use with more social utility (a charity that needs a computer, for example)..

  15. Re:iOS sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why does android auto install app updates without my permission? Why is the OS continually asking me to install lollipop even though I've said no dozens of times? Why is the top bar cluttered with icons of notifications I don't care about?

    When you install a new app it is placed in some random order in the "bottom plane", creating a lot of clutter. Instead of beeping and displaying a notification for a few seconds like ios, android display the notification for several minutes while constantly blinking the screen as if it is trying to force you to respond to the notification.

    Android is just a very poor copy of ios suffering from featuritis.

  16. Let's not forget that patents expire by RoLi · · Score: 1

    Everybody, including the people who wrote the summary are treating patents as if they were perpetual - but they are not.

    AFAIK the really good patents (about the FAT-filesystem) are expiring 2015. There are still some shady non-essential FAT-patents that expire IIRC until 2017, but those are easily worked around, have tons of prior art, are about non-essential features and/or are laughably frivolous.

    So of course a patent-portfolio purchased in 2011 may be worth a lot less today. It may be even worthless, depending on what patents have expired. Basically the worth of a patent portfolio can be calculated by how much money could be milked so far (by royalties or monopoly pricing) from it multiplied by the time still left until expiration. So most patent portfolios will lose value over time (although there may be rare exceptions when some revolutionary products come out - but that did not happen since 2011).

    People, do you remember the gif-pdf patent outrcry? It's ancient history now - and all these patents will be history in just a few years because most of them were filed in the 1990s.