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5,200 Days Aboard ISS, and the Surprising Reason the Mission Is Still Worthwhile

HughPickens.com writes Spaceflight has faded from American consciousness even as our performance in space has reached a new level of accomplishment. In the past decade, America has become a truly, permanently spacefaring nation. All day, every day, half a dozen men and women, including two Americans, are living and working in orbit, and have been since November 2000. Charles Fishman has a long, detailed article about life aboard the ISS in The Atlantic that is well worth the read; you are sure to learn something you didn't already know about earth's permanent outpost in space. Some excerpts:

"Life in space is so complicated that a lot of logistics have to be off-loaded to the ground if astronauts are to actually do anything substantive. Just building the schedule for the astronauts in orbit on the U.S. side of the station requires a full-time team of 50 staffers.

Almost anyone you talk with about the value of the Space Station eventually starts talking about Mars. When they do, it's clear that we don't yet have a very grown-up space program. The folks we send to space still don't have any real autonomy, because no one was imagining having to "practice" autonomy when the station was designed and built. On a trip to Mars, the distances are so great that a single voice or email exchange would involve a 30-minute round-trip. That one change, among the thousand others that going to Mars would require, would alter the whole dynamic of life in space. The astronauts would have to handle things themselves.

That could be the real value of the Space Station—to shift NASA's human exploration program from entirely Earth-controlled to more astronaut-directed, more autonomous. This is not a high priority now; it would be inconvenient, inefficient. But the station's value could be magnified greatly were NASA to develop a real ethic, and a real plan, for letting the people on the mission assume more responsibility for shaping and controlling it. If we have any greater ambitions for human exploration in space, that's as important as the technical challenges. Problems of fitness and food supply are solvable. The real question is what autonomy for space travelers would look like—and how Houston can best support it. Autonomy will not only shape the psychology and planning of the mission; it will shape the design of the spacecraft itself."

219 comments

  1. Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    We are 11 trillion in debt. Space exploration is a nice to do when a country has its house in order.

    1. Re: Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, but before we do, ask ourselves one question.

      "Was the space program really worth it?"

      Seem like the Chineese have their house in order. Nice of you to invite them into ours.

    2. Re:Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's on a different budget.

    3. Re:Shut it down by MacTO · · Score: 4, Informative

      Different ways of looking at it:

      The space program has been, on average, 1.15% of the US budget. Giving it a proportional share of the debt means that it contributed 204 billion.

      Even if you consider space exploration as entirely frivolous, it has only contributed 508 billion to the debt (before interest). That amounts to 2.85% of the debt.

      Yes, the US needs to get its "house in order". Yes, NASA needs to produce better results in order to justify its existing budget. On the other hand, attacking the space program will do very little to address the debt problem. Actually, it will do very little to address the deficit. (Again assuming that space exploration is completely frivolous, it only accounted for 2.48% of the deficit in 2013.)

    4. Re: Shut it down by benjfowler · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The space program costs fuck-all compared to the ridiculous amounts of money conservatives spend bribing old people with freebies, and handouts to the bloated military.

    5. Re:Shut it down by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you name a single instance of a country that stopped all exploration until domestic debts were paid and all people reported that they were happy with things as they are?

    6. Re:Shut it down by Tokolosh · · Score: 2

      I have probably heard a hundred different times how eliminating a program that is only 1% of the budget will not fix the debt problem.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    7. Re:Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're not asking you to stop "all" exploration. Just the "exploration" that we already know is meaningless.

    8. Re: Shut it down by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that Spain, Portugal and England had similar discussions in the 1400s. After all, why try to innovate and just pay the exorbitant taxes levied by the Spice Road owners. Can anybody see the relevance today with Europe, Russia and China?

    9. Re: Shut it down by gomiam · · Score: 2

      Such a quaint trolling...

    10. Re:Shut it down by ThePhilips · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Eliminating space program would mean that lots of R&D wouldn't be done anymore (domestically).

      That's a dangerous gamble.

      USA should trim the military budget first.

      --
      All hope abandon ye who enter here.
    11. Re: Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't we skip Mars and set our sights on mining precious metals from the asteroid belt. Much more complicated, but:

        Planetary Resources says that platinum from a 30-meter long asteroid is worth 25â"50 billion USD.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

      The problem at that point becomes that a scarce resource is no longer scarce (less valuable) but DeBeers has been a case study in managing diamond scarcity for years.

    12. Re: Shut it down by KermodeBear · · Score: 1

      11? You are way, way off. 18 is the latest.

      --
      Love sees no species.
    13. Re:Shut it down by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      And of course you are the absolute reference on what is meaningless or not. Please reveal yourself, since the USA needs your guidance.

    14. Re: Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, what is the "spice" from space in your example?

    15. Re: Shut it down by abuelos84 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I don't think we really want to replicate the diamond market model...

      --
      -- Counting backwards since 1984!
    16. Re: Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 2

      Exploration in the 1400s was taking a profitable venture (the spice trade, later precious metals) and finding new ways to make it more efficient (new trade routes). Discovery of new lands was incidental. Nobody wandered around the ocean without a particular destination in mind, that would have been suicide. So if we really follow your analogy, then we should stop manned space exploration, focus on activities that have immediate profit, and be satisfied knowing that new discoveries will take place whether we pursue them deliberately or not.

    17. Re:Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK let's explore the center of the Earth.

      We can already study space from right here in our computer chairs. Does getting 600 kilometers closer to Andromeda help anything?

    18. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      Why don't we skip Mars and set our sights on mining precious metals from the asteroid belt. Much more complicated, but:

          Planetary Resources says that platinum from a 30-meter long asteroid is worth 25Ã"50 billion USD.

      It costs more for the fuel to de-obit platinum safely than the value of platinum. We can't start there. We should either:

      1. Find a country we really don't like, and declare it "America's new platinum mine", so we can skip the whole "safely" part of "de-obit platinum safely"; or

      2. Start with a CHON asteroid. Most of the expense of space past LEO is the cost of the fuel to lift the fuel. If we could make endless fuel in orbit, well, whole new worlds of space exploration open up to us. (Plus then it's cost efficient to do the platinum asteroid thing.)

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    19. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      conservatives spend bribing old people with freebies

      So Social Security, Medicare, and Federal Pensions (collectively over half the budget) are conservative programs now? Man, when did that happen - I can't keep up with these shifts in the political landscape!

      Meanwhile, the defense budget is only 1/6th of the federal budget and falling. The left got their way: America's military dominance is fading. The Pax Americana is ending.
       

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 2

      Actually too many to name. There have been thousands of countries, nations, empires, etc. and very few of them had any policy of active exploration. The romantic notion of exploration is a very recent development. Throughout most of history, wandering beyond the horizon would have been suicidally insane and very few to attempted it were ever heard from again.

    21. Re:Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, the satellite networks for gps, communication and weather aren't worth it?

    22. Re:Shut it down by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      Of course the US is still the remaining superpower in world, look up the definition sometime. It probabably doesn't mean what you think it does.

    23. Re:Shut it down by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      You are wrong, the waves of peoples who came to the Americas and various Pacific islands prove you wrong.

    24. Re: Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? The government who gets there first controls the economy. Asteroid belt or neo, asteroid mining is the only economic argument I've heard for space programs that seems tangible.

    25. Re: Shut it down by Casualposter · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know where you get your 1/6th figure. US military spending for fiscal 2014 according to the wikipedia page is 43% of the total amount budgeted. Only 1.4% goes to NASA and 0.6% for the National Science Foundation.

      --
      Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
    26. Re:Shut it down by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Can you name any country that paid all domestic debts and all people reported that they were happy with things as they are?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    27. Re: Shut it down by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      GPS was a pure military development. I'm pretty sure NASA had zilch to do with it.

    28. Re: Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about solar sails?

    29. Re: Shut it down by Rei · · Score: 1

      It costs more for the fuel to de-obit platinum safely than the value of platinum

      Asteroids seem to deorbit pretty effectively on a fuel budget of zero.

      Your return chunks of asteroid are their own ablative. Ideally you'd give them as optimal of a reentry shape and trajectory as possible, but you wouldn't brake them, you'd just aerocapture, and then give them just enough of a drogue chute that they don't disintegrate fully on impact.

      --
      I am a proud traitor to my species in alliance with my mother the Earth in opposition to those who would destroy her.
    30. Re: Shut it down by rossdee · · Score: 1

      Energy

      We can't keep using stored solar energy (fossil fuels) for much longer without making the planet uninhabitable. There is too much resistance to nuclear fission, and we don't seem to be bothering to exploit stored nuclear fission energy (geothermal). Even if we put up solar panels everywhere on this planet it wouldnt be enough, so we are either going to have to go out and put solar collectors in space, or develop our own fussion generators (which may need He3 that may be found on the moon, or in the long run collected form the atmosphere of the gas giants.

    31. Re:Shut it down by Casualposter · · Score: 1

      I really have a hard time understanding where you get the idea that US is so weak and irrelevant. We spend 1.7 trilliion dollars on defense on this planet and 36.6% (640 billion) of that is done in the US. China is the next most prolific spender on defense and they spend around a third of what the US spends (188 billion).

      The comment about legacy yet relevant weapons really doesn't make sense to me.

      The value of NASA has never been commercial. It is a pure research area. WE are learning how to live and work in space, which is an environment so alien to us that our bodies don't even function properly. That knowledge flows into the private commerce section of our economy and slowly brings benefits that we have yet to imagine.

      --
      Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
    32. Re: Shut it down by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      And, yet, America was (re)discovered, and everyone learned a fundamental truth in those times. New "spices" were discovered in the process. So, with your lack of vision, shall we leave access to space for the less timid?

    33. Re:Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Exceptions that prove the rule. Out of thousands of cultures, the number of premodern societies that attempted any serious, sustained exploration can be counted on one hand. And really, its doubtful that premodern migrations to the Americas were any kind of deliberate exploration effort. It was probably just nomads following the herds.

      Look at this way, modern humans have been around for about a quarter of a million years. The first migrations out of Africa were only about 30,000 years ago. If exploration were really some fundamental human constant, it seems odd that we spent 90% of our time in a relatively small portion of one continent.

    34. Re: Shut it down by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      Yes.

    35. Re:Shut it down by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      We can already study space from right here in our computer chairs. Does getting 600 kilometers closer to Andromeda help anything?

      If fact, it does. Being outside of the atmosphere means visible light telescopes are tremendously more useful. Radio telescopes on the far side of the moon would be far more effective. Studying each of the planets is far more effective if you're actually on or near them.

      Yes we can create robots that go out there and study very specific things. They are planned well in advance, do only very limited things, and frequently fail because they're not totally autonomous and adapt poorly to the unexpected.... case and point: Rosetta's Philae lander....or any number of probes that have malfunctioned or been lost. If you put a single human out there, they can fix the problem. A person can conduct hundreds of experiments where a machine is limited to a few. A person can analyze and interpret results onsite, even design new experiments. A person can build things, onsite.

      Robots have their uses. But they're not a replacement for humans. Not yet anyway.

    36. Re:Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Another important factor in your calculations: if we shut down NASA, thousands of people are now unemployed, meaning they're not paying payroll or income taxes. In other words, a lot of money the government pays NASA actually comes straight back to the government. I suspect that alters the percentages by a non-trivial amount.

    37. Re:Shut it down by itzly · · Score: 1

      That knowledge flows into the private commerce section of our economy and slowly brings benefits that we have yet to imagine.

      Exactly how does learning to live and work in space bring commercial benefits ? Or is that "yet to imagine" ?

    38. Re: Shut it down by itzly · · Score: 1

      Asteroids seem to deorbit pretty effectively on a fuel budget of zero.

      Only for a limited range of sizes. Too small, and they'll completely burn up. Too big, and they'll explode on impact.

    39. Re:Shut it down by Casualposter · · Score: 1

      "Throughout most of history, wandering beyond the horizon would have been suicidally insane and very few to attempted it were ever heard from again."

      Not from the tracks our ancestors laid down. We left tools. We traded with other humans far from our homes as far back as we can find records. Humans have wandered over the horizon for as long as we have been on this planet. The archeological record demonstrates our many migrations from place to place as does our complicated genetic heritage. We are wanders by nature and our settling down into cities is recent, though with as much as we move around, we've not really stopped wandering. (I have lived in twelve cities and five states in less than 50 years.) Wandering over the horizon is suicide? Hardly. There is no land on this planet that we have not figured out how to live upon from the Inuit of the North, to the bases in Antarctica and every island and continent in between.

      --
      Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
    40. Re:Shut it down by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Knowledge is funny sometimes. It just doesn't follow narrowly defined lines. It just doesn't go where you think it will go.

      One of the enduring legacies of Apollo was managing giant, hi tech endeavors with tens of thousands of people involved. Same sorts of endeavors that bring you giant aircraft, giant boats, enormous power projects, the Internet.

      While you can argue about how safe or sane searching for knowledge really is, it's clear that it does have major effects on our economy and ecology.

      So tune in, turn on and keep your antivirus programs running. It's a weird ride.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    41. Re: Shut it down by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      NASA and the military have a long, close and contentious relationship. Remember, NASA does few things internally. It outsources most of the manufacturing to other companies. Which companies? Why the very same companies that comprise the military-industrial complex. The Shuttle was a joint Air Force / NASA program (that wasn't terribly smart but that is another story). Many NASA positions require military security clearances.

      All of NASA's boosters derived from military stock.

      At a lot of levels, they are one in the same.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    42. Re:Shut it down by Cabriel · · Score: 1

      [Citation Needed]

      "Too many to name" is not an excuse to not justify a statement. It should always be followed by notable examples so that sources and claims can be checked. Otherwise, it's an impossible statement to defend against and fact-check, and that kind of statement has no place in debate.

      So, please, name a few so we can see how accurate that statement is.

    43. Re: Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      Sure, why not? Its not like space is a limited resource than can be monopolized the first mover.

    44. Re:Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 0

      Wanderers are different than explorers. Nomadic people follow established cycles in known locations. Trading with the village in the next valley over is different than sailing into the unknown. Moving between established cities is different than spending trillions of dollars to hurdle a person through the void of space to a dead rock that's inhospitable to life in every conceivable way.

    45. Re:Shut it down by itzly · · Score: 1

      I'm all for doing science projects, and discovering unexpected things. I'm just in favour of doing them with a useful primary mission. Let's use our collective resources to find and implement a global replacement for fossil fuels, for instance. That's certainly a more pressing issue than learning how to circle around the Earth.

    46. Re:Shut it down by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      I can get to one hand only in the Europe: the Portuguese, the Spanish, the British, the Dutch and the Italians. I'm not as well versed in the history of other parts of the world, but I'm pretty sure that between Asia, Africa, and native populations of the Americas, you'll probably reach some multiple of that number.

    47. Re: Shut it down by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Not really, what is the "spice" from space in your example?

      On Arrakis, silly.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    48. Re:Shut it down by Hussman32 · · Score: 1

      The one thing this comment does not recognize is that national debt is not necessarily bad. As long as the debt to GDP ratio is reasonably consistent and less than a year (the US at 0.7 years now), we are not overleveraged.

      --
      "Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
    49. Re:Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 0

      Generally speaking modernity in Europe is considered to be about the mid 15th century to the present day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... Two the countries you name didn't even exist until the modern era. Try again.

    50. Re: Shut it down by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's 43% of discretionary spending, which is itself about 30% of total spending. Spending Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are both individually 1.5x as large as medical spending.

      Here's that in pie chart form and in infographic form. All numbers from the Congressional OMB.

    51. Re: Shut it down by flyingsquid · · Score: 2

      Meanwhile, the defense budget is only 1/6th of the federal budget and falling. The left got their way: America's military dominance is fading.

      The defense budget is 20% of the federal budget, which is around 1/5th. America's defense budget exceeds that of the next 10 largest defense budgets *combined*. The U.S. still has unquestioned air superiority in every conflict it enters, a fleet of aircraft carriers to project that air power, ballistic missile submarines that can rain down nuclear death at a moment's notice, a rapidly growing drone army to silently hunt our enemies from the skies, electronic intelligence and cyberwarfare capabilities to spy on the whole world, and critically, the network of ships, bases, and air transport to rapidly move troops and supplies to conflict points anywhere on the globe and project that military force... America is the only remaining global military power. No one else- not China, not Russia- has that ability to project power beyond their regional sphere of influence. It's not limitless power, as shown by Iraq, Afghanistan, or even Viet Nam, but it still makes the U.S. the only remaining superpower. And if anyone's hurting the U.S. military preparedness, it's not the left, it's the generals who push for expensive toys like the F-35 instead of focusing on problems like counterinsurgency warfare.

    52. Re: Shut it down by maestroX · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, the defense budget is only 1/6th of the federal budget and falling. The left got their way: America's military dominance is fading. The Pax Americana is ending.

      You must be joking. The U.S. spends more on defense than the next eight countries combined [http://pgpf.org/Chart-Archive/0053_defense-comparison].

    53. Re:Shut it down by flyingsquid · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The value of NASA has never been commercial. It is a pure research area. WE are learning how to live and work in space, which is an environment so alien to us that our bodies don't even function properly. That knowledge flows into the private commerce section of our economy and slowly brings benefits that we have yet to imagine.

      I keep hearing this argument, in fact I've been hearing it for around 20 years. And during that time, we've spent hundreds of billions of dollars on NASA. So it's about time to ask... where is all this spin-off technology we've been promised for the past 20 years? Most of the major innovations we've seen are either military (GPS, internet) or commercial (cellular networks, smartphones). It's hard to point to a single transformative innovation to come out of NASA recently, and historically the military has done far more to spur technological innovation than NASA. I'm not arguing that building more F-35s is the best way to spur technological innovation, but it's worth taking a hard look at where our research dollars make the biggest difference, and I think it would be hard to show that NASA is the best way to do that.

    54. Re:Shut it down by flyingsquid · · Score: 3

      Yes we can create robots that go out there and study very specific things. They are planned well in advance, do only very limited things, and frequently fail because they're not totally autonomous and adapt poorly to the unexpected.... case and point: Rosetta's Philae lander....or any number of probes that have malfunctioned or been lost. If you put a single human out there, they can fix the problem. A person can conduct hundreds of experiments where a machine is limited to a few. A person can analyze and interpret results onsite, even design new experiments. A person can build things, onsite.

      It's a bullshit argument. The problem is that a robotic mission is going to cost on the order of 1% of a human mission to do the same thing. If there's a risk of the lander failing, the cheapest and easiest solution is to create two or three separate robotic probes which minimizes the chance of failure. Obviously a 100 billion dollar manned mission will be more capable than a 1 billion dollar robotic mission. But a 100 billion dollar robotic mission would be vastly more capable than a comparably expensive manned mission.

    55. Re:Shut it down by flyingsquid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exceptions that prove the rule. Out of thousands of cultures, the number of premodern societies that attempted any serious, sustained exploration can be counted on one hand. And really, its doubtful that premodern migrations to the Americas were any kind of deliberate exploration effort. It was probably just nomads following the herds.

      Look at this way, modern humans have been around for about a quarter of a million years. The first migrations out of Africa were only about 30,000 years ago. If exploration were really some fundamental human constant, it seems odd that we spent 90% of our time in a relatively small portion of one continent.

      Actually, proto-humans migrated repeatedly out of Africa. Homo erectus, Homo antecessor, Homo neanderthalensis, and finally two waves of Homo sapiens moved out of Africa and into Eurasia. North America was colonized repeatedly by Homo sapiens, by the Amerindian, Navajo-Dene, and Inuit peoples. Migration probably is in the genes. Lineages that become widespread are harder to wipe out as a result of drought, famine, climate change, etc. so lineages with some innate tendency to disperse probably tend to survive. But it's kind of a moot point. The places they went to already had atmospheres, normal gravity, ambient temperatures, radiation shielding, abundant game and edible plants. Mars has none of that. It was simple enough to move out of Africa that a cave-man could do it, literally. It doesn't follow that because humans could and did repeatedly move from continent to continent that it's a good idea to try to colonize a cold, barren, airless wasteland millions of miles away.

    56. Re:Shut it down by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Yes, most human settlement in new lands has taken place as short moves from existing settlements into new territory. That is human expansion, nonetheless, and has been responsible for most of our occupation of the whole Earth. Where long-distance exploration jumps come in is when a "giant step" is required, say to be first into a new continent. As soon as Musk or anyone else does this for an extraterrestrial destination, the usual legion of incrementalists will follow.

    57. Re:Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      really have a hard time understanding where you get the idea that US is so weak and irrelevant

      There's a long distance between "superpower" and "weak and irrelevant", no?

      We once had a military to fight "two and a half wars", with simultaneous control of every ocean. That's a superpower. We're at around half that strength now. Our naval power is mostly older hulls, and new capital ships are not being built at replacement rate. We'll still be able to project power, no doubt, but not like we used to. Now responding in strength in one part of the world means leaving "opportunities" elsewhere for territorial aggression. Oh well, everyone kept going on about how we shouldn't be the world's police force, and I guess we won't be - at least not in 2 places at once.

      The comment about legacy yet relevant weapons really doesn't make sense to me.

      Most of our (expensive) strategic force: large naval vessels, bombers, etc, are mostly older now. As we're building far fewer bombers/carriers/fighters/etc than we used to, that means we have mostly old stuff in service now - but still usable today given our likely opponents (though B1B bombers are easy for current opponents to shoot down, only usable after we've already won, really, and will still be in service for 20 more years). For a reduced mission that will be fine, but it's becoming evident that if Russia of China decides to expand its borders a bit, we'll be writing them stern notes.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    58. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      Exactly - like I said, just pick someone we don't like, and deorbit all the chunks of asteroid we want to down on them, then just pick up the pieces. :)

      Seriously, the scenario as I understand it is: we'd park an asteroid in a high orbit (you wouldn't want it dangerously low), maybe above GEO. Slicing off a chunk of platinum itself takes a bunch of energy, but lets pretend we could use a solar furnace or something (seems plausible). We've still got to change the orbit for a chunk of metal for a high orbit to a reentry trajectory - that's a non-trivial mass of fuel per kilo of payload, right? And the cost of getting that fuel to high orbit is nuts, so the economics don't work. But you're better at this math than I am - what do you come up with?

      OTOH, if we start with a CHON asteroid in high orbit, and some automated way to process it into fuel (which I think you'd need to get it into orbit in the first place, but isn't that much of a stretch), then everything changes.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    59. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      Relative spending doesn't matter the way you think it does. For example, it doesn't matter how much we spent if there's no aircraft carrier in a particular ocean the month we need one, and that requires a fixed minimum count of hulls. We've fallen below that count (and it will fall over time) - now we can pick a few places where we can project power, but as soon as we respond to one crisis, any asshole tinpot dictator can see we're tied up there and can send troops across his border.

      All of which is only relevant if we want to be the world's police force, of course. Was it worth the cost, to have 70 years with no large-scale war? I think it was, but we're no longer willing to be everyone else's defense budget. We can continue to protect ourselves, no doubt, but I believe turbulent times are ahead if that's all we do.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    60. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      You've fallen for the "discretionary spending" sales pitch. This pie chart is a bit old, and still has some war spending that we don't have for 2014, but it's still informative. http://usdebtclock.org/ is up to the minute, and cites every number.

      Mostly what the federal government does is mail checks to old and/or poor people. Stuff like infrastructure and NASA is collectively an afterthought, and much (most?) of that is pork. As others have said, our government is a pension plan with a military.

      I'd like to see more NASA, more roads, more NSF, more building anything, but that's just not the focus of the federal government these days.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    61. Re:Shut it down by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. Reducing the space program could mean more money for other research topics. NASA budget is twice that of the NSF. Does it really make sense to spend twice as much on space research as all other non-medical sciences combined?

    62. Re: Shut it down by Lallo · · Score: 2

      The space program has technology as a by-product. The true goal of space is not about your personal wealth, but about the wealth of your children's children and even more far off generations... This is about the big picture. This is about more than just your petty greed. What about that is so hard to grasp? Why does everything have to offer you a return price tag for you to consider it's worth? But then, if most people are as self centered as you are, then maybe the human race does deserve to stay on this rock until it burns.

    63. Re: Shut it down by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      You quote two excellent examples. Do you even read your OWN posts?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    64. Re: Shut it down by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I'm betting those nations ended up doing exploration and 'research' in the name of commerce.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    65. Re: Shut it down by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      It's taken us this long to get beyond subsistence.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    66. Re: Shut it down by Rei · · Score: 1

      Which is why you send as optimal of a size and shape as possible. Note that asteroids normally come in randomly and have random shapes. Humans can have a huge impact on the behavior by choosing an optimal shape and trajectory. And, as mentioned, drogue chutes could be used to further reduce the free fall velocity - not for a gentle impact, simply to keep the velocity down to a level that it won't completely obliterate itself in the atmosphere or on impact.

      --
      I am a proud traitor to my species in alliance with my mother the Earth in opposition to those who would destroy her.
    67. Re: Shut it down by Rei · · Score: 1

      By picking the shape and trajectory, we can have quite good accuracy on where to land the debris. Pick a piece of federal desert land and there you go.

      Seriously, the scenario as I understand it is: we'd park an asteroid in a high orbit

      Bad assumption right from the beginning. That's a terrible waste of energy. You mine an earth-crossing asteroid. Chunks mined off an earth-crossing asteroid can be put onto an earth-intersecting trajectory with only the tiniest of delta-V (you might have to wait a long time your payloads, but no problem there). The amount of delta-V is so low (dozens to hundreds of m/s) that you wouldn't even need to use a rocket, you could just kick it off with a railgun or similar. Then you don't brake it when it gets to earth - it brakes itself by crossing through Earth's atmosphere ("aerocapture"). There are various optional things one could do with the reentry chunks to assist, such as small rockets for trajectory adjustment en-route or small high-speed chutes to keep the asteroids from completely obliterating themselves on reentry / landing (no need for a soft landing, it's fine for them to hit moving at hundreds of meters per second). Both of these would be dwarfed orders of magnitude over by the mass of the return chunk.

      All you, as a mining operation, need to do is get your operation up to the asteroid. You need to be able to mine off chunks, shaped appropriately for optimal reentry, and kick them off onto an ideal reentry trajectory toward your target impact zone - potentially with the various hardware systems described as above, but in the base case, not with anything at all. You need a source of power (solar, nuclear) for mining and to kick your chunks into their Earth-intercept trajectory. And of course you have to deal with a million and one details, starting with how to mine at all in microgravity and what targets would actually have commercially viable quantities of valuable minerals.

      --
      I am a proud traitor to my species in alliance with my mother the Earth in opposition to those who would destroy her.
    68. Re: Shut it down by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, unlike the billions given to ILLEGAL aliens, wefare queens so they can continue to pop out more & more children. The "welfare" et al budget is many times that of Veterans, military, senior citizens payouts. Both parties in some part stopped long ago doing "the business of the country", and instead, concentrated on doing whatever keeps them in power.

      The govt, state or federal doesn't give billions to illegal aliens. On the other hand, they pay sales taxes, income taxes and social security taxes like everybody else. Of course, if their employer pays them under the table or doesn't report and remit those taxes to the govt., well, the problem is with the employer, not the immigrant. As for "welfare," well let's be fare. If the so called job-creators actually created jobs with the record profits they are reporting, then maybe they wouldn't have to pay so much in taxes to support those on welfare. The so called welfare system is in place to allow employers to pay a sub-liveable wage. Put differently, if employers paid liveable wages, then there wouldn't be nearly as many people on the various assistance programs.

      So, in summary - illegal aliens getting a free ride - that's because of employers breaking the law to increase profit; welfare and subsidy programs - if employers paid a liveable wage, they programs wouldn't be needed. You are correct, though, both parties stopped long ago dealing with the real cause of problems.

    69. Re: Shut it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe some of the other grown up Republics in the world can help carry some of the ball.

      Japan should handle its own defense. The The Poles, British, French and Germans theirs.

      If everyone chips in, then none of us have to be the hated police and tax man.

    70. Re:Shut it down by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      The countries did not exist but the explorers are from what today are those countries and there are plenty of them from after the 15th century, so you can substitute Spain and Italy with whatever country(ies) the explorers were from, at the time. You try again.

    71. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      Maybe some of the other grown up Republics in the world can help carry some of the ball.

      Japan should handle its own defense. The The Poles, British, French and Germans theirs.

      If everyone chips in, then none of us have to be the hated police and tax man.

      A heavily armed Europe and militarized Japan - what could possibly go wrong? Well, joking aside, it's for the best. Germany is poised to conquer Europe just by calling in its debts, and Japan is culturally quite distant from 80 years ago. Sucks to be Taiwan, but not everyone can be a winner.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    72. Re: Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      That makes some sense - of course, figuring out how to get something to carve platinum out to that asteroid will be the fun part, but I guess if you found just the right orbit that came in closer to the Sun for a bunch of easy power - maybe. Seems more likely than Slashcode ever getting Unicode support, anyhow.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    73. Re: Shut it down by hackertourist · · Score: 2

      America's military dominance is still more than enough to ensure no nation will take up arms against the US. The current threat to Pax Americana isn't military action from another nation, but US military actions abroad that foster insurgency and terrorism. Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that military dominance isn't enough to win a war against a determined population.

    74. Re: Shut it down by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Social Security started as a conservative program, being invented by that flaming liberal Otto von Bismarck. Bismarck wanted to make socialism look less attractive.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    75. Re: Shut it down by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      is that really good, that we're dependent on others to have a supply chain for food, instead of having means of each producing our own? That's a less robust situation for civilization, best to rectify that problem before we become even more unstable.

    76. Re:Shut it down by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      We can still project force anywhere we like. Nobody else can. Two and a half wars was perhaps reasonable after WWII, although we weren't going to be doing much else in a land war with the Soviet Union or China, but the world has somewhat equalized since then. I still don't see who's going to challenge us in any ocean.

      We haven't responded with strong military force to many acts of territorial aggression since WWII, and our response has sometimes been delayed (liberating Kuwait in 1991, for example), so I don't see that we've lost much deterrent effect. We never were in shape to do a full-scale attack on Russia/the Soviet Union or China for border expansion. Since WWII, China has tried terrritorial expansion a few times, and I don't remember us doing anything warlike about it.

      Modern ships and planes last a long time, and are generally refittable with the latest sensors, weapons, and electronics, so we don't really need to build over the replacement rate (we're probably building ships faster than needed for replacement purposes, just to keep shipyards in business). The B1B is still perfectly usable in any war we're likely to get into for the next twenty years, since governments that have advanced air forces generally have some interest in staying peaceful.

      I'm really not seeing what we'd be buying with larger armed forces.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    77. Re:Shut it down by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I can give you one example of a country that stopped exploration for political reasons. At one time, China had large fleets going all over the Indian Ocean, until the maritime folks wound up on the wrong side of a civil war. That probably hurt China seriously a couple of centuries later.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    78. Re:Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      The B1B is still perfectly usable in any war we're likely to get into for the next twenty years, since governments that have advanced air forces generally have some interest in staying peaceful.

      I'm really not seeing what we'd be buying with larger armed forces.

      The reason we've only been fighting insurgencies and the like is because we've had so large a military that no one would risk provoking us into a "high intensity" war. I fear that we've lost that deterrent.

      I don't believe that Russian and China are beyond expanding their borders. Maybe it's not our job in the first place to prevent that (though I'd like to think it's a good result), but we won't be doing that preventive job much longer.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    79. Re:Shut it down by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I don't think anybody wants to fight the US in a high-intensity war. Such affairs are expensive, and the US can do a great deal of damage no matter what.

      As far as Chinese territorial expansion goes, I don't remember us getting militarily involved when they had an armed border dispute with India, or when they tried taking part of northern Vietnam. You seem to be suggesting taking up military burdens we didn't before.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    80. Re:Shut it down by lgw · · Score: 1

      The Vietnam war was a proxy fight between us and China, because we weren't going to fight directly (for centuries, whenever two world powers got angry and didn't want to fight directly, one of them would invade Vietnam and the other would fight them there - it's bizarre). We certainly protect Taiwan today, we're still in the Korean DMZ though not like before, we've had troops in Europe since WWII to deter Russian aggression, though only in certain directions. And of course we've been all over the Middle East.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    81. Re: Shut it down by strikethree · · Score: 1

      So Social Security, Medicare, and Federal Pensions (collectively over half the budget) are conservative programs now?

      Who cares what label is put on them? The real issue is that those programs were ALREADY PAID FOR. Congress stole the money with some sleight-of-hand back in the 80s and now here we are all yelling and screaming about how the government wastes so much money paying for all the fucking old people and by the way, why didn't they just work and save like I am doing now?

      That is all bullshit. Social Security and Medicare were paid for and funded until all of the money was outright stolen. If you don't like paying for Social Security and Medicare because it will not be around when you and I retire, then go blame some dead politicians. They stole it and spent it.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    82. Re:Shut it down by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about the Vietnam War, but some time afterwards when China attacked Vietnam.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. Ground Control... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    NASA, as far as astronauts go, is very "ground control" centric. To wit:

      "Just building the schedule for the astronauts in orbit on the U.S. side of the station requires a full-time team of 50 staffers."

    What the true scope of their work is not given.I suspect that a few do the "schedule" part.. it is a 24/7 operation. The rest are doing logistics: What supplies are needed, do we have power, oxygen, fuel.

    However, ISS is a very labor intensive thing. To get a document signed off can take dozens of signatures from all over the place. Most of the signatories are really signing to say "nope, this document doesn't impinge on anything I'm responsible for", but still, you need the document signed.

    But ultimately, everything is manually done: typically with processes developed in the 70s to use systems designed in the 70s. Send a request to do X to person Y, who verifies that time is available, then they send it to person Z who verifies that power is available, who then sends it to person A, who verifies that there's no conflict with operation Alpha, Beta, then person B verifies there's no conflict with operations Charlie, Delta, and Echo.

    ISS operations is like a small village of 10,000 people each of whom have their specialized area of expertise.

    1. Re: Ground Control... by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      There is much truth to what you say. There has to be proof, in safety-critical processes, that the people working those processes have taken the time to interpret that piece of paper properly. Redundancies exist in the process workflow as well. You can cheap out and use an airline process, and, truth be told, we probably are arriving at that level of sophistication. But not quite yet; let's watch how Space-X and Virgin perform with government contracts and with tourism as well as the next commercial Concorde.

    2. Re:Ground Control... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NASA, as far as astronauts go, is very "ground control" centric.

      The ISS is not a permanent outpost in space. A single random piece of debris can kill its occupants within seconds as they suffocate. Humans require fresh air, sunlight, gravity, and above all else a sense of freedom that can never be achieved living inside a metal, plastic, and glass bubble. The feminists will rejoice as soon as all humans look androgynous because in their collective mind the sooner every male human is eradicated the better for society.

    3. Re: Ground Control... by geoskd · · Score: 4, Informative

      There has to be proof, in safety-critical processes

      First: Why? everything in life is a risk. If you put out an add looking for volunteers for a mission that is almost 100% guaranteed to kill the volunteer, you will still get many thousands of times the number of volunteers as you need...

      Second: There is no such thing as proof. the very concept is for mathematicians, politicians and idiots; none of whom deal in the real world. The real world is dangerous, and people are notoriously bad at planning for the unexpected. The amount of danger increases as a function of the energy involved, making spaceflight very dangerous by definition. The people involved accept that risk, but what good is installing 3 redundant hydraulic systems when a single fault in the leading edge of a wing severs all three... A better use of weight and cost would be two systems with armor... (Might have saved Columbia, or at least gotten the crew to a slow enough speed and low enough altitude that they could have survived breakup/bailout). Redundant systems have a demonstrated usefulness, but they fail completely when face with area effects, and yet, redundancy is used to "prove" low odds of failure, that simply do not pan out in reality. Fukushima was supposed to survive a one in a thousand years tsunami...

      flight 232 had all three hydraulic system severed in what was supposed to be a 1 in a billion event...

      Kegworth was a result of redundant engines being useless because the wrong engine got shut down...

      "Proof" in mechanical systems is usually demonstrated through redundancy which only gets you so far: Not nearly as far as the engineers are taught...

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    4. Re: Ground Control... by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      Who wants a half heartedly designed pacemaker? Those must be as cheap as hearing aids. But, more to your point, it takes many people at different periods in their careers to usher in truly ground breaking discoveries. The redundancies serve as classes so that should two, three or more emergencies arise, there are adequate people to assist.

      Perhaps the best reason is having experienced people taught in NASA's laboratories increase their value in the commercial enterprises desiring their skill and experience. Frankly, NASA should earn a headhunter's fee when outplacing any if their engineers.

    5. Re: Ground Control... by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      "Proof" as in signatures that the people have actually read it, and "Proof" residing in the margins and comments attached to said documents.

      Sometime a stupidly dumb proposal helps the process by feeding the imagination engine.

    6. Re: Ground Control... by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      Finally, I find it fascinating that you gave examples of commercial enterprises. NASA has a superb history of servicing safety critical systems; your angst seems better placed towards private businesses.

      Seeking reparations after a chemical plant failure isn't a good business model.

    7. Re: Ground Control... by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Columbia was a commercial enterprise?

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    8. Re: Ground Control... by lgw · · Score: 1

      First: Why? everything in life is a risk

      Because NASA is funded by politicians, who care very much about bad news. When a shuttle crashes there must be congressional investigations! Congresscretters must be seen doing something about it.

      "Proof" in mechanical systems is usually demonstrated through redundancy which only gets you so far: Not nearly as far as the engineers are taught...

      It's not the engineers who are confused about this. Nor is it the politicians. Both groups understand the situation well.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    9. Re: Ground Control... by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I agree that over-engineering is not going to be the way forward, but the greatest value of lessening risk is the PR aspect and it should not be overlooked.

      Just look at the people in this thread who argue that the space program and all of the research and the eventual benefits from extraterrestrial energy and resource production are a waste of money. Now, add some deaths to it. It doesn't matter if there are one or two or a hundred.

      Those deaths will get exploded in the media in a manner that mirrors how people are afraid of things like Ebola or terrorism while the actual probability of being killed by those things is much less than being killed in a car accident. There will be commissions, there will be spineless politicians grounding whole programs, and then those same individuals will complain that NASA isn't making any advances and is a waste of money.

      Accepting risks like that is not something an individual can do in a risk adverse society without it rippling outward. And that's ultimately where the US is going.

      The US needs to look outward to save not only its position in the world, but also preserve the underlying morale of the people who live in it. Granted, the old method of looking outward tends to lead to wars, but the interesting thing about space exploration is that it provides people a means of looking outside their borders without having to dominate their neighbors. And if you think about it, that might well be the greatest advantage of all.

      So, I agree with you on what needs to happen. Astronauts and test pilots dying in accidents needs to increase our determination, not cause it to fold, but that is a problem with our inward looking society which NASA engineers can't control. What they can control is trying to be as safe as possible to make sure they can keep going. What we need to do is to not accept that there will be deaths, but to make the case that there is concrete benefit to those risks to begin with. The case isn't being made where it needs to be.

    10. Re: Ground Control... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fukushima was supposed to survive a one in a thousand years tsunami...

      Run 50 nuclear power plants for 20 years, and on average one of them will experience a one-in-a-thousand-years tsunami.

    11. Re: Ground Control... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Politicians pander to their constituencies. Individuals can and do accept the risks but it is the uninformed internet mob whose first reaction to any set back or loss of life is to set out looking for someone to blame. Politicians latch on to these reactions, no matter how idiotic, and do what politicians do best which is support anything deemed beneficial to their never ending campaigning. Getting into orbit and coming down from orbit are risky and dangerous acts. We are still using the wily coyote method of strapping our ass's on top of a big rocket, crossing our fingers, and lighting the fuse. I don't care how many redundancies you have in place you can never make our current method of obtaining orbit completely safe and pedestrian. Those who chose to go into orbit are aware of the dangers and still chose to go. Accidents will happen and those involved do learn from the disasters and carry on. Relatively speaking we are still just taking the first steps needed to put humans into space. There will be failures and disasters every step of the way and real manned space exploration of any magnitude is at least 25 years away if not more. Space offers scientific exploration and an abundance of resources that could benefit all if we can master just getting to and from orbit. Forget going to the Moon or Mars and start constructing an orbital platform capable of providing docking facilities for re-usable space vehicles which would remove the most dangerous and expensive part of just getting into orbit. If we ever build a space vehicle large enough to accommodate more than a few people for a couple of weeks it will need to be built in orbit and having it's components ferried up to orbit. We have built multiple space stations over the last 40 years surely we have learned enough to build an orbital platform that actually serves a functional purpose instead of just a orbiting laboratory.

    12. Re: Ground Control... by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      First: Because you won't get much out of a mission where everyone dies. Argue if you wish, but you will get more out of one where people live and can do stuff and report and return samples.

      Second: Proof, in common parlance, does not mean what you suggest. Knowledge within an acceptable error rate is proof enough. And when it proves insufficient, we gain knowledge. But not nearly as much as if it had been.

      What exactly did you object to? That people who aren't idiots would like to engage in cutting edge science safely if possible?

    13. Re: Ground Control... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Fukushima was supposed to survive a one in a thousand years tsunami...

      Nope. It was already a known fact that the generators were sited incorrectly. Residents didn't want the generators to be built atop pylons. Guess they regret that decision now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

    The idea here is interesting but I'm not convinced for three reasons: first, the fact that massive staffs are used to plan out their days isn't necessary great evidence that it really is difficult: that could be administrative bloat. Second, for much of a trip to Mars days will end up looking very much like each other until one is actually on planet. They won't be doing much in the way of experiments on the way to Mars. Third of all, a 20-30 minute delay will not really create that many problems with getting plans from Earth unless one is in some sort of emergency situation.

    1. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the fact that massive staffs are used to plan out their days isn't necessary great evidence that it really is difficult: that could be administrative bloat.

      SOMEBODY has to go get the catered lunches.

    2. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They might want to be running a bunch of experiments on the way to and from Mars just to fill up the time. I doubt that they would want the days to end up looking like one another. Better for the people to be kept so busy that they don't notice the time passing by rather than trying to figure out what to do with time on their hands.

    3. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any chance they may need to conserve their energy given a tight food supply? How many Calories are burned away while doing experiments as opposed to watching a bunch of DVDs? Seriously.

      Also, less seriously...
      "Houston, we have a problem. We only have 59 minutes of oxygen left. What should we do?"
      60 minutes later. ...

    4. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the fact that massive staffs are used to plan out their days isn't necessary great evidence that it really is difficult: that could be administrative bloat.

      SOMEBODY has to go get the catered lunches.

      s/SOMEBODY/Everybody/

    5. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by itzly · · Score: 1

      We've been running similar experiments for decades now. How much more useful things to do can you come up with to do in micro/zero gravity ?

    6. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've been running similar experiments for decades now. How much more useful things to do can you come up with to do in micro/zero gravity ?

      It's not like your average scientist can just ask to get whatever tested in microgravity. Heck, people are still trying things in Earth gravity. I don't think there is a reasonable limit to what would be interesting to test in microgravity.
      Granted, most of the things I can think of is repeating long term studies on humans, and you do not necessarily want to do that on a crew going to Mars.
      Risking a crew showing up at Mars with sleep deprivation or malnutrition isn't ideal.

    7. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's not like your average scientist can just ask to get whatever tested in microgravity."

      http://quest.nasa.gov/smore/ba...

      Sigh. NASA *itself* doesn't even need space for microgravity...

      Yes, a hole in the ground is beyond the reach of the average scientist. Therefore, rockets.

      Got it.

    8. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by itzly · · Score: 1

      It's not like your average scientist can just ask to get whatever tested in microgravity.

      It will be even harder for the same scientist to get his stuff tested on a mission to Mars. The problem is of course not the available time (plenty!), but the extra mass, power and space required by the experiment.

    9. Re: The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most experiments can't be done in the 5 seconds of microgravity you get in a drop tube.

    10. Re: The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technology always gets better, remember? We'll find a way to do the experiments in 5 seconds.

    11. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sigh. NASA *itself* doesn't even need space for microgravity...

      Yes, that works great if you want to do the Coke and Mentos "experiment" in microgravity.
      That method is less convenient for tests that require more than a few seconds. If you want to see how mice fed with a specific diet grows in microgravity there isn't enough Earth in the ground to remove for the hole.

    12. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by dpilot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which highlights what I'd really like to see added to the ISS - a farm module. Test a farm module on the ISS, getting the concept ready for a Mars mission. Do we really plan to send something on the order of 2 years of consumables on a Mars mission, recycling only the water? We need much more complete recycling, and we'll need it for any permanent presence anywhere beyond Earth. For that matter the only reason we don't need it on Earth is because we've got this giant biosphere that has handled the details pretty well for us, up until the past several decades.

      I rather like the idea of such a farm module even on Earth. No doubt it would be designed for compactness, efficiency, and minimal hand-holding. Sounds good to me - put one of those in the back yard and cut the grocery bills. (I realize that the initial outlay is likely prohibitive, but the idea is neat.) There are also likely places on Earth where such a thing would be worthwhile, say Antarctica or other inhospitable locations.

      (Note that I didn't say that a farm module would use sunlight - that might not work for Mars, and probably not beyond.)

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    13. Re:The idea is interesting but I'm not convinced. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I rather like the idea of such a farm module even on Earth. No doubt it would be designed for compactness, efficiency, and minimal hand-holding. Sounds good to me - put one of those in the back yard and cut the grocery bills. (I realize that the initial outlay is likely prohibitive, but the idea is neat.) There are also likely places on Earth where such a thing would be worthwhile, say Antarctica or other inhospitable locations.

      (Note that I didn't say that a farm module would use sunlight - that might not work for Mars, and probably not beyond.)

      I concur. We need industrial, automated, optimized in terms of energy and input materials, factory assembly line - like production of edible plant biomass that wouldn't depend on whims of weather, and we need it here on Earth, to break our reliance on total area of arable land, or on access to natural sources of water. It does so much more for our long term survivability as species than our relocation to other celestial bodies does. Once we have enough non-agricultural food production capacity combined with ample reliable energy sources (nuclear, geothermal, ... ), we could survive in underground shelters almost any of previous great extinction type events. The key to survival out of Earth is also the key to survival down on (well, down in) Earth.

  4. Expert systems by gmuslera · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe they should start giving more responsibilities and capabilities to the expert systems running in the computers aboard to do all those tasks. Lets start the HAL series.

    1. Re: Expert systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where were the expert systems when it took a week to get water to the Super Dome during Katrina. Does anyone really think our current government is competent enough to undertake an awesomely complex task to safely send and return humans from Mars? Seriously 2 shuttles exploded because bureaucrats ignored the engineers.

    2. Re:Expert systems by SpzToid · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Or we could cease the pissing contest of getting people to Mars first, ASAP, and continue with our low Earth orbiting ISS investment, and do our long-range exploration and tests using cheaper rocket engines and instruments, which are working very well, especially over time. Hopefully with less financial and environmental costs over time. I'm not anti-science, but can't these questions wait to be resolved, until like 100 years from now at least? Technology always gets cheaper and we have other priorities for the budget.

      I mean really, Putin has single handedly-topped his Sochi Olympics with Cold War II. And I'm sorry to invoke a Godwin on a science budget thread, but those Islamic State monsters are on at least the level of Nazis.

      Instruments seem better suited for deep space exploration and performing actual science than humans, and they can certainly do it up there longer and dare I say for less money. Doesn't the ISS do a lot of grade-school experiments for kids to keep them interested in studying science in school? We can do better with our science budget.

      --
      You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
    3. Re:Expert systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I'm sorry to invoke a Godwin on a science budget thread, but those Islamic State monsters are on at least the level of Nazis.

      You are overlooking the Islamic State victims are not Jews so the world community (governments) feel no guilt. Maybe IBM is providing the information systems to Islamic State and President Obama does not want to upset the one-percent. If the US and UK know where Islamic State members are training and living why not drop a few thermonuclear warheads on them?

    4. Re: Expert systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Collateral damage from our previous endevours is a large part of why the IS exists in the first place. The easiest people to radicalize are young men who have lost family.

  5. Useless money pit by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The primary use for the space station is to practice with sending astronauts in space. The problem is that there's no actual use for people in space, so the practice is useless too. Sure, we all hear the stories that a human geologist could do stuff so much quicker than a remote controlled robotic rover. Of course, these stories never discuss how much extra time you'd need to get the human geologist there in the first place, and what it would cost. In the same time, and for less money, you can launch a few dozen unmanned missions, each to a different location, carrying different kinds of tools, and get more results.

    1. Re:Useless money pit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...unless your final goal is permanent human habitation of space.

      Then, all the useless things they do to assemble the station, upgrade it and keep the toilets working.... have a purpose. They are testing out technology at a convenient distance, always a lifeboat's ride from home.

      Because one wouldn't want to die because of an irresolvable toilet problem on the way to Mars. :P

    2. Re:Useless money pit by itzly · · Score: 1

      ...unless your final goal is permanent human habitation of space.

      There would be very little accomplished by doing such a thing, especially when compared with the insane price tag. But, sanity aside, even if you wanted to do something like that, the best first step for such a project would be to practice landing heavy things on Mars. So, let's send more robotic rovers, and make them heavier each time. That way you can combine practice with actual interesting science. When you get to a point where you can land 1000 ton objects safely on Mars, that's when you can start thinking about sending the first people.

    3. Re:Useless money pit by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that there's no actual use for people in space, so the practice is useless too.

      As far as anyone can tell, there's no actual use for people here, unless you count self-propagation, pollution, and destruction. But any bacteria can do those things.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Useless money pit by itzly · · Score: 1

      As far as anyone can tell, there's no actual use for people here

      Quite true, but people have a remarkable resistance to getting killed. What can you do ?

    5. Re:Useless money pit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize you're talking to a True Believer, right? There's no logic or reason there.

    6. Re:Useless money pit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we should send a robot to do the astronauts' scheduling, and eliminate the 50 full time employees who do the job on earth. Either that, or send a pencil and paper and a 2nd grader who would be able to do the task.

    7. Re:Useless money pit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      @Anonymous Coward: troll on.

      @itzly:

      Any 1000-ton payload to Mars is going to have to be assembled on near Earth orbit. Using the techologies used to assemble ISS. If it contains components from multiple manufacturers, interfaces are going to be needed... oops, the ISS is testing them out. Soviet docking ports, Canadian robotic arm, heck knows what from heck knows where...

      I'm also a realist. Perhaps because of that I realize that the ISS is a result of some overlap between diverging interests.

      Remember Mir... the Soviet space station which was permanently inhabited for long periods of time before the ISS. Well, the ISS is a result of compromise. The USSR agreed to help building ISS, which made more sense due to opportunities of scaling it up, than a domestically made Mir 2. Buying a seat made a lot of sense to parties with far less space station experience, including the US. Now the US has a lot of space station experience, and it didn't have to pay the full bill. Sensible? You figure it out, I'm not from the US, I'm not paying your bill. In fact, I'm from the USSR, but not from the part which is currently hos(t)ing the space program. :P

    8. Re:Useless money pit by itzly · · Score: 1

      Any 1000-ton payload to Mars is going to have to be assembled on near Earth orbit

      I didn't mean to suggest that we start with 1000 tons. Start with 10 tons, and slowly work up from there. But until you can do 1000 tons, there's not much sense in figuring out how to deal with humans in space. And even if you decide that you want to assemble in orbit, I bet that could be done without building a space station.

    9. Re:Useless money pit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're rather full of yourself. We can't "destroy" nature - we are nature. The universe will still be what it was if we manage to kill ourselves off and the only value any life has is the value we ourselves assign it.

    10. Re:Useless money pit by swillden · · Score: 1

      You're rather full of yourself. We can't "destroy" nature - we are nature.

      That's actually implied by what the GP said.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  6. I blame SpaceX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Space used to be something you did to be the best, because it was hard, &c.

    Now, thanks to the constant stream of press releases from SpaceX, it's become just another boring business venture in the public consciousness - not something to do for its own sake, to advance the lot of humanity, but as a mere means to the end of profit. I must admit that it's reduced my interest in space exploration, too.

    And it's not that space has somehow been privatised - NASA was always subcontracting - but that the management of projects has been privatised. In two decades' time we'll have just another Boeing, but this time providing end-to-end boondoggles, with The People now lacking the resources to get things back on track.

    1. Re:I blame SpaceX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm always a bit baffled by this argument, that we do things that are "hard" and therefore we should do them.

      Healthcare for all was hard, were you for it?

      Having a leisure society with rational distribution of resources will be hard to do. Life extension will be hard to do.

      So, where is the outcry for these things?

    2. Re:I blame SpaceX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, where is the outcry for these things?

      We went neo-con in the '70s. This is little more than an atheistic religion which has much of the American populace in its grips.

      And, yeah, I'm for striving for universal healthcare, post-scarcity economics and life extension. The last is a current problem (although the first helps somewhat toward upping the average), the first is already solved in most first world countries, and the middle one is a matter of applying the same algorithms the biggest corporations apply anyway, in order to optimise production.

    3. Re:I blame SpaceX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. You're the first one that made sense and offered a cogent reply. Whoever you are, if you are a Space Nutter, you're a rational one.

      I'm putting *this* down in my calendar!

  7. Autonomy by rmdingler · · Score: 2
    I am all for the off-planet exploration of space by humans, but...

    The fact that NASA allows the astronauts so little authority now to make decisions implies their reluctance to trust human judgement in stressful conditions. Too many variables.

    Send the robots first. Figure it out. Then the ones who need food.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Autonomy by PPH · · Score: 1

      Not a problem. We can send them up with a HAL 9000 that will ensure completion of the mission.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Autonomy by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      In all likelihood, that's what happens to life forms that perfect AI.

      Humans: 1st they're creators, then observers, and finally pets.... at least we play a role, eh?

      Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

  8. scheduling by geoskd · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "Life in space is so complicated that a lot of logistics have to be off-loaded to the ground if astronauts are to actually do anything substantive. Just building the schedule for the astronauts in orbit on the U.S. side of the station requires a full-time team of 50 staffers.

    I'm sorry, but that just flies in the face of reason. If its true, then NASA is doing something badly wrong. It should not take 50x as long to figure out what order to do things as it does to actually do them. I could understand a complex operation like a spacewalk taking 50 man hours to plan for a one hour project, but the majority of things that people do simply do not benefit from that extreme level of planning.

    A good example of the over-thinking that NASA does is the Columbia Crew survivability report. Many tens of thousands of hours were spent on the analysis that concluded the same thing that just about anyone could have stated after 30 seconds of deliberation: There were many different factors involved in supersonic re-entry, most of which are fatal, and there is no known technology that could have saved the crew from any significant portion of those factors. Yet NASA felt it necessary to spend millions on that part of the investigation...

    If people want to continue NASA in any meaningful way, two decisions need to be made: First, what do we really want NASA to accomplish? (meaning we the people, NOT we the NASA), and how much will it really cost.

    I can virtually guarantee that no one cares if NASA achieves any more science. What people want NASA to be achieving is the engineering of going into space and staying there. Everything else costs more than it is worth, and should be undertaken only if the costs can be partially subsidized by the engineering projects needed to achieve cheap space travel.

    Given the progression of human engineering expression, space travel should be accessible to a significant minority of the worlds population. 35 years after the wright brothers, the entire upper middle class could afford to fly. 35 years after Apollo, only a handfull of people have even been to the moon, and less than 100 individuals could afford to pay out of pocket to do so today, and even if they did, they would have to wait 10 years for someone to put together a dedicated mission.

    NASA has failed in its primary responsibility to the American people: Make space travel commonplace.

    --
    I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    1. Re:scheduling by itzly · · Score: 1

      Make space travel commonplace.

      Pretty much impossible task. The Tsiolkovsky rocket equation is a harsh mistress.

    2. Re: scheduling by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      NASA incorporates a cascading filter process that relies upon multiple examination of these documents to cast out the unworthy elements. The best test of any process is to introduce errors and check the process(es) work products.

    3. Re:scheduling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Make space travel commonplace."

      We don't even have the Concorde anymore. But take heart, our entire planet ("rock" for you crowd) is *already* in space!

    4. Re:scheduling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >NASA has failed in its primary responsibility to the American people: Make space travel commonplace.

      Wrong, even if that were its primary responsibility. They have routinely paid Russia to send up people and supplies to the ISS, and Russia has been taking space tourists into space.

      Besides,

      NASA's mission is as follows, not as you wish it was:

      "The National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (Space Act) established NASA as an aerospace research and development agency that sponsors and conducts flight missions to obtain data in furtherance of its objectives..."

      Interesting...the captcha was aliens.

    5. Re:scheduling by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A good example of the over-thinking that NASA does is the Columbia Crew survivability report. Many tens of thousands of hours were spent on the analysis that concluded the same thing that just about anyone could have stated after 30 seconds of deliberation: There were many different factors involved in supersonic re-entry, most of which are fatal, and there is no known technology that could have saved the crew from any significant portion of those factors. Yet NASA felt it necessary to spend millions on that part of the investigation...

      And here you aptly demonstrate what "just about anyone" in their cluelessness doesn't grasp - there's a vast gulf between a thirty second conclusion, and actual analysis. Among other things, the Crew Survivability study discovered an unexpected failure mode in the titanium structures of the crew compartment.
       

      I can virtually guarantee that no one cares if NASA achieves any more science. What people want NASA to be achieving is the engineering of going into space and staying there.

      I can completely guarantee you have no clue what you're talking about. The man-vs-machine debate is one of the loudest, deepest, and bitterest debates there is when it comes to space travel and exploration. There's many people who want NASA to be doing *more* science, and much less of anything having to do with people in space.
       

      Given the progression of human engineering expression, space travel should be accessible to a significant minority of the worlds population. 35 years after the wright brothers, the entire upper middle class could afford to fly.

      You're off by at least twenty years and a second world war's worth of engineering investment. You also fail to note that air travel has an economic function (in connecting existing destinations and enabling economic activity) - while space travel is largely a money pit.

    6. Re:scheduling by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Among other things, the Crew Survivability study discovered an unexpected failure mode in the titanium structures of the crew compartment.

      Actually the "faulty" part was the roller bearing for the bay doors, and it should be noted that the part was being used so far outside its design parameters at the time of failure that the analysis provides no useful information.

      There's many people who want NASA to be doing *more* science, and much less of anything having to do with people in space

      none of whom are paying the bills. The people paying the bills are largely indifferent to the science, and only want to know "whats in it for us?" That is not at all an unreasonable question, and one that basic research struggles with all the time. The idea that basic research has any intrinsic value is not at all obvious to anyone outside the scientific community (for whom science pays the bills, and provides interesting work. In short, not an objective crowd ).

      You're off by at least twenty years and a second world war's worth of engineering investment.

      I'm not off at all, and space flight had the cold war which saw the USA alone spending many times what the entirety of world war II cost the entire world.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    7. Re:scheduling by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      The Rocket Equation gives us guidance on how to get around it. Increase exhaust velocity or reduce velocity increments. For lots more detail, see my book ( http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/S... ), but here are a few ideas:

      * Replace some of the bottom part of reaching orbit with higher efficiency engines. That can be anything from subsonic jets (Stratolaunch) to ramjets, to ground accelerators. Replace some of the top part of reaching orbit with electric thrusters transferring momentum to a fractional space elevator (only reaches part way to the ground. By reducing the velocity provided by chemical engines, and more by other methods, you lower the mass ratio.

      * Mine for fuel everywhere: scoop mine our atmosphere from orbit, process asteroid rock in high orbit, mine Phobos for fuel, etc. By repeatedly fueling at each location, you reduce fuel needed to a series of linear steps, instead of an exponential. If fuel extraction has a large mass return on your capital equipment, how much you need to launch from Earth drops dramatically.

    8. Re:scheduling by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      > while space travel is largely a money pit.

      Space industry worldwide is $300 billion a year, of which NASA is about 6%. Most of the money, and most of the recent technology improvements, are from satellite communications. High efficiency solar arrays and ion propulsion have been used on satellites for about 15 years now. The Dawn asteroid mission (which has electric thrusters) was 7 years later and 1/4 the mass.

    9. Re:scheduling by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Oh bullshit. Space is still expensive because the US government doesn't want anyone else up there. It's actively working against making space exploration any cheaper. The Russians can put stuff into orbit for a fraction what the US can do it for....but you hardly ever hear anyone dwelling on this fact. And if you do, we just say it's because they have substandard technology. What the Russians actually did was go with the cheapest design possible and reused it again and again.

      The US could have done this too. But we insisted on 30+ years of the shuttle. Americans still believe the shuttle is better and think a capsules are antiquated and inferior to the shuttle. The think the space station could not have been built without it. Well, how hard would it have been to build a Mir style space station with lots of Skylab sized components....on Saturn rockets...forty years ago.

      Perhaps this is the best argument for abandoning the manned space program. The government clearly has no interest in it accomplishing anything with it.

    10. Re:scheduling by itzly · · Score: 1

      Where's the bullshit exactly ? Russian rockets may be comparatively cheaper, but they are still very expensive, not too reliable, and are limited in total mass they can take up and bring down. Grandparent was comparing NASA to airline travel. The price for a Soyuz trip is still orders of magnitude more than a plane ticket.

    11. Re:scheduling by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      It was implied that it was expensive due to the rocket equation...implying the cost cannot be brought down due to constraints imposed by physics...That is the bullshit. Yes, it'll still be expensive. But the shuttle program was deliberately expensive.

    12. Re:scheduling by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Actually the "faulty" part was the roller bearing for the bay doors, and it should be noted that the part was being used so far outside its design parameters at the time of failure that the analysis provides no useful information.

      Actually, it does - because titanium is, and will be for a long time, a major structural material for spacecraft.
       

      none of whom are paying the bills. The people paying the bills are largely indifferent to the science, and only want to know "whats in it for us?"

      Yeah, much of the vox populi are largely indifferent to the science - but they're also largely indifferent to the idea of man in space too.
       

      I'm not off at all, and space flight had the cold war which saw the USA alone spending many times what the entirety of world war II cost the entire world.

      Yes, you are off, way off. And if space flight has the Cold War - that was it's WWI.

    13. Re:scheduling by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Do learn to read - I said nothing about the space industry. I specifically limited my comments to the discussion at hand... manned space travel.

    14. Re:scheduling by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Subsonic jets are almost useless at getting to orbit. The big problem is not getting high but getting to orbital velocity, and that's something like Mach 30. Ramjets aren't likely to go more than Mach 6, and a launch vehicle attached to a ramjet is likely to lose more than 20% of its capabilities compared to a ground-based one. A partial space elevator might do well for elevation, but it looks to me like a bad idea to get orbital velocity.

      The most promising cost reductions seem to be with Space-X building big dumb reusable first stages burning kerosene and liquid oxygen. Once we have a spacecraft in orbit, we can look at using more efficient engines without needing them to put out multiple Gs of acceleration, but that first step is a doozy and is going to remain so for a long time.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  9. Missing the point by MPBoulton · · Score: 1

    The true value of our efforts in space comes from ambitious projects that inspire people to take up STEM subjects (e.g. not to trot out the same old stat, but the 7:1 return in the USA economy from the Apollo missions is a prime example). At the moment the ISS isn't doing a very good job in this area compared to the Mars probes or Rosetta, especially when you consider the cost of the ISS project.

    If the ISS wants to ramp up its relevance and earn its tax dollars, then it should be focussing on more ambitious projects.

    1. Re:Missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The true value of our efforts in space comes from ambitious projects that inspire people to take up STEM subjects "

      One wonders what drew people to STEM subjects before these ambitious projects? Did Maxwell dream about space? Did Newton? Of course not, and to think that only these grandiose space-based pork projects motivate people is insulting. And vastly oversimplifies complex human emotions and thoughts.

    2. Re:Missing the point by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Maxwell and Newton were one-in-a-million. (if not more) Do we really want to only harness that small a portion of the human race's mind-power? Yes there will always be some who will have found their motivation in the natural world, and don't need any artifice. But is there really a problem with providing inspiring artifice? Does that make contributions those people make worthless? They may well be second-rate compared to Maxwell or Newton, but that also takes in the vast majority of mankind. To do better seems good.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  10. Mars is not the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've always found the debate about going to Mars/the Moon to be missing the point: what humans need is to move away from planets entirely. Learn to live out in space itself and you can go anywhere. Once you've escaped the harsh mistress that is the gravity well, why go back to another one?

  11. Where are the US manned launches? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right now the US seems to be somewhere back before John Glenn (system being designed). I watched the first moon landings; I never dreamed I might see the funeral of the last man on the moon.

    1. Re: Where are the US manned launches? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To think you'll probably live to see the funeral of the last man ever to have a job and a house... Kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

  12. Parent is insightful+++++ by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Best comment comeback to anti-space I have ever seen.

    1. Re:Parent is insightful+++++ by itzly · · Score: 1

      Not very insightful actually. People on Earth keep themselves alive for the most part. To keep people alive in space needs an infrastructure that cost hundreds of billions of dollars on the cheap end.

    2. Re:Parent is insightful+++++ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no actual use for people at the center of the Earth either, so I guess that means you now support manned exploration of the center of the Earth?

      Too hard? I thought you guys were all about "hard"?

    3. Re:Parent is insightful+++++ by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Not very insightful actually. People on Earth keep themselves alive for the most part. To keep people alive in space needs an infrastructure that cost hundreds of billions of dollars on the cheap end.

      And Earth is different HOW?

    4. Re:Parent is insightful+++++ by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Not very insightful actually. People on Earth keep themselves alive for the most part. To keep people alive in space needs an infrastructure that cost hundreds of billions of dollars on the cheap end.

      Why do "people" have a special place in existence again? I'm not really sure I get your argument?

    5. Re:Parent is insightful+++++ by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Why do "people" have a special place in existence again?
      Because soylentnews is PEOPLE!
      -- oops sorry, wrong site. Let's try again.

      > Why do "people" have a special place in existence again?
      Dunno, but I asked around.
      God simply referred to some of His old press releases, and sent me to the "prince of this world" for more insight. So I went to Satan, which did not reply either, proclaimed "my work here is done" and flew away.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
  13. Queue: Car analagy .. in 3,2,1.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So,

    Perhaps Google is setting it's sights too low with Google Car. Maybe they should be (or are) working on Google Spaceship where everything is automated: navigation, human's schedules, communication, monitoring of everyone's health.

    They could call the AI system GAL... Google (Heuristically) programmed ALgorithmic computer)

  14. Collosal waste of money by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

    Certainly one of the biggest boondoggles ever. At an estimated cost of $150B through 2015, that is $24 million per day! (based on 6250 days by end of 2015). Extending the math, that is just over $1.5 million per orbit.

    And for what? What inventions or unique processes have been discovered or perfected and put into use on earth to better our own lives? What scientific results have been significant? (I won't even ask for memorably significant) What non-human experiments were done what could not have been done far cheaper by other means? Did the TV news ever lede with "An incredible scientific breakthrough by astronauts/researchers on ISS was announced today...."

    Using just a third of that money, NASA (and lets be honest, almost the entire cost is paid by the US) could have spent over $6B more on exploratory missions to each of the other 8 planets (including Pluto). And still had $100B left over to spend on projects, scientific or otherwise, at home.

    1. Re: Collosal waste of money by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      Bird -

      You like weather forecasts, right? Weather satellites freed fleets of aircraft and ground stations from creating a patchwork image of cloud cover.

      You like eating, right? We have satellites measuring the health of forests AND FARMS, which help us estimate crop yields and can set the market costs even before meat, fruit and vegetables reach the processors.

      You like television, right? Television programs use to be relayed across the country and compressed so much that the east coast thought Hollywood could only do film and the west coast knew the easterners for the worthless, blurred colorless taped programs. Direct TV wouldn't exist without NASA.

      You like telephones, right? Can you imagine the effort it took for a secretary to place a long distance call? Ma Bell took its sweet time innovating, didn't she?

      I wouldn't call the space program "worthless" by any truthful measure!

    2. Re: Collosal waste of money by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      Apples and oranges. The manned space program and the ISS in particular contribute just about nothing to the development of satellites.

    3. Re: Collosal waste of money by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      The "space" program involves far more than the ISS. The ISS was a giant money suck which I'm sure fed many a corporation and congress critter's constituents. Beyond that, hard to find anything of significant value from ISS to justify the cost.

  15. ISS is worth the dollars spent. by CFBMoo1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd argue this given how little a budget has been given to NASA when compared to things like the F-22 and F-35 programs the US Government runs. People who bedevil the space program aren't looking at the big picture of return we've gotten over the years. Yeah they always can do better but they already have done exceptionally well especially when compared to some military defense contractor spending projects that would dwarf NASA and have no return of value other then money spent in someone's district and a product that was substandard and/or delivered late.

    --
    ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
    1. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by geoskd · · Score: 1

      but they already have done exceptionally well especially when compared to some military defense contractor

      We can compare them to Enron too, or compare them to Jeffrey Dahmer. It proves nothing.

      NASA peaked in '69, and it has been all downhill since then. Its long since past time for them to shit or get off the pot. Since they seem unwilling to produce, its time to cut them out and replace them with someone who can show results.

      To be fair, a large part of the problem is political and legal. Our legal and political systems cant deal with / don't tolerate fatalities. Even the military is loosing their protections in this regard. It means that the politicians and the lawyers are actively preventing us from making forward progress because of the overwhelming backlash against "allowing" a fatality.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    2. Re: ISS is worth the dollars spent. by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      I believe only you would make THAT comparison. Sounds like an excessively unfair analogy to these ears!

    3. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by mean+pun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And exactly what should they produce then? What do you consider results? And why should we listen to you?

      NASA has produced results. Perhaps not the results you like, perhaps they were not as profound or as glitzy as you would like, but they got results. Including a smooth-running ISS, a mars rover that goes on and on and on and on and on, and a new launch system.

      Now, I understand that proving that you are a hoopy frood by slagging of NASA on /. is too tempting for some people, but that doesn't mean it is a sane point of view.

    4. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by itzly · · Score: 1

      Of course, but it may be more realistic to try to move the ISS budget to other space exploration missions than it is to move defense contractor budget to NASA.

    5. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Including a smooth-running ISS, a mars rover that goes on and on and on and on and on, and a new launch system.

      We cant get to that ISS without paying Russians for the ride (those same Russians we currently have sanctions against for their international behavior...)

      That mars rover has produced some interesting information about mars, but in what way does that knowledge benefit me? In what way has anything to do with the mars rover benefited the average American? NASA could have done that 30 years ago. They could have and should have done it in '85 so what has the last 30 years bought us?

      What new launch system? Last I heard they were a decade behind schedule and so far over budget as to make most government efforts look efficient by comparison. Even when they do finish it (in 5 years?), it will still not be significantly more cost effective than the last launch system (hopefully a little safer maybe, but I doubt it...)

      After everything is said and done, the one thing we need NASA to do, is save the human race: Both by getting us off this rock, and by keeping other rocks from hitting us. We are no closer to either of those goals than we were in 1980, so I feel no particular inclination to keep on giving them any money. I don't care how much we spend on defense, as that does not pertain to this question. At least $200 out of my pocket went to NASA last year, and based on what I have seen from them, I do whatever is in my power to avoid giving them any more. I know I am not alone, as NASA every year faces an uphill battle to maintain their funding (and for good reason, they haven't earned a damn thing in the last 30 years).

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    6. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by itzly · · Score: 1

      That mars rover has produced some interesting information about mars, but in what way does that knowledge benefit me?

      You could ask the same about football or Marvell movie adaptations. Mostly entertainment. The Mars rover entertains a different audience.

    7. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by geoskd · · Score: 1

      You could ask the same about football or Marvell movie adaptations. Mostly entertainment. The Mars rover entertains a different audience.

      and I am equally unhappy about my money being used to subsidize those other things.

      I spend more money on the untied way than I do in taxes, and I wouldn't have any issue with NASA if they had done anything I consider remotely useful in my lifetime. Going to the moon was useful because it was trailblazing. The space shuttle was supposed to be the first step in creating a space economy, but it failed because they couldn't make it cost effective. The new launch system looks to be more of the same. Meanwhile, private companies are starting to do what NASA either couldn't or wouldn't do: make space accessible to wider audiences... We'd be better served taking NASA's entire budget away and giving it to sir Richard Branson or Elon Musk.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    8. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by itzly · · Score: 1

      and I am equally unhappy about my money being used to subsidize those other things

      Tough for you then. But I'm sure you are enjoying other things that have been subsidized by tax money. Also, the Mars rover programs have been fairly cheap for the amount of data returned.

      We'd be better served taking NASA's entire budget away and giving it to sir Richard Branson or Elon Musk.

      Branson or Musk aren't going to send a rover to Mars. There's no profit in it.

    9. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by Zargg · · Score: 1

      After everything is said and done, the one thing we need NASA to do, is save the human race: Both by getting us off this rock, and by keeping other rocks from hitting us. We are no closer to either of those goals than we were in 1980, so I feel no particular inclination to keep on giving them any money.

      Wouldn't you say having rovers and observers on Mars and beyond for years at a time is going to help us get off this rock and possibly save our planet at some point?

    10. Re:ISS is worth the dollars spent. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      More to the point, you could ask the same about spending any money on basic science. We're living high on the results of basic scientific research of decades ago. As long as we continue to do science, we can expect our children and grandchildren to be enjoying the benefits of current scientific research.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  16. You could make the same argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    scaling it for humans on all but eating, pooping and procreating. Slashdot serves no essential purpose other than to keep slashdotters busy with something on their mission to a grave. See how easy that was? We can play madlibs with that argument all day for any activity. Humans want more. Humans explore. Space included. Spending 1 out of every 100 tax dollar on it is a very small price to pay.

  17. Autonomous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This was a difference between the Soviet space program and the US one.
    Cosmonauts were far more autonomous, one of the reasons is that USSR lacked ground relays for uninterrupted communications with the crew.
    They were for several hours per day without ground control.

  18. 50 to make a scedule? by houghi · · Score: 1

    Life in space is so complicated that a lot of logistics have to be off-loaded to the ground if astronauts are to actually do anything substantive. Just building the schedule for the astronauts in orbit on the U.S. side of the station requires a full-time team of 50 staffers.

    I do not think this will be a standard 'Person A starts a shift at 7AM and person stops at 11PM' kind of sceduling.
    Most likely this will be about what and when and will need 50 people due to the task, not due to it being in space.
    And this because of the fact that it is not a routine job. It is research and the ISS is just a far away branch.
    I have worked in companies where scheduling was done away from many places and where a lot of things have been offloaded to places where I did not work.
    So to me there is nothing special going on. The only reason we are not going to Mars is because we don't want to. We do not want to invest the billions it will need. We don't want to sacrifice the people that will die.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:50 to make a scedule? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So to me there is nothing special going on. The only reason we are not going to Mars is because we don't want to. We do not want to invest the billions it will need. We don't want to sacrifice the people that will die.

      Right, and the only reason our tax money is being spent on war for profit is that we are greedy fucks who like murdering people. We want to kill people for profit instead of potentially losing some volunteers on the way to Mars.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  19. Old news by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

    Almost anyone you talk with about the value of the Space Station eventually starts talking about Mars. When they do, it's clear that we don't yet have a very grown-up space program. The folks we send to space still don't have any real autonomy, because no one was imagining having to "practice" autonomy when the station was designed and built.

    That's old news to anyone actually paying attention. It was highlighted as a problem as far back as the Skylab SL-3 and SL-4 missions. In an email exchange with NASA scientists working with the Flashline Research Station back in 2002 (or so) I outlined the need to streamline communications and transfer some of the decision making and planning authority from the (simulated) mission control to the station commander and from the station commander to his subordinates. Unsurprisingly, the NASA study ended up reaching the opposite conclusion - the existing system worked,and there was no need to even seriously try any other system. That, ultimately, is why they don't have any real autonomy or practice having real autonomy.

    1. Re:Old news by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The third Skylab crew did stage a revolt against ground control, probably caused by unreasonable demands. There's never been much Houston control could do to enforce its decisions.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:Old news by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Not flying the astronauts again (as happened to the Apollo 7 and SL-4 crews) has proved pretty effective at getting Houston's point across.

  20. NASA does quite a lot for GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to say that if NASA didn't fund it, the Dept of Defense wouldn't, but JPL (a NASA center) does a lot of the work on GPS, particularly for precision positioning and geodesy applications.

  21. Not exactly administrative bloat, more inertia.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the processes used are 40 years old, and legacies of the days when "on-board" computation was extremely limited. NASA has always been "ground control centric". When the "trans-earth injection" burn had to be made behind the moon for Apollo, the big sigh of relief when the signal appeared at the correct time coming out from behind the moon was "the astronauts didn't foul it up". While astronauts do a lot of useful and unique things, NASA's general philosophy is to tightly script every action so that there is no uncertainty or unexpected events (there's a whole process to deal with "process escape", in fact). On Skylab, the astronauts got so fed up with "scripted every minute" that they went on strike for a couple days. This has happened on ISS too, and the Atlantic article discusses it (5 hours work in a procedure scheduled for 20 minutes).

    And, NASA has *so many* procedures that are *so interrelated* but very few people having an end to end view, it is very hard to achieve incremental improvement. There's no "rip out the architecture and put a new one in" possible, not that it would be successful.. many have tried, both in Govt and in Industry for big complex systems, and failed.
    So, to take a practical example, say you want to send a 1GByte movie from the ground to an astronaut... this is a multi-week process. You send the file to someone who is responsible to getting it up to ISS. They see if there is some radio link time available on the high rate Ku-band links, and schedule it, essentially by sending a formalized request citing a catalog service identifier (the people who run space communications are contractors, who are paid to follow specific procedures, and with performance metrics related to following those procedures... changing the procedure means a contract renegotiation). That request eventually results in a scheduled event for comm. Then a request is sent to the people who actually run the transmitters, and they say "ok, put the file *here* and we'll upload it according to your specified schedule". Meanwhile, someone on the ground has to command the equipment on ISS to be ready to receive the file, and that has a whole (manual, with computer assist) scheduling process too. You need to get "command window" time on the *other* radio links (S-band) to be able to send commands to equipment on ISS. Different frequency band, different equipment, different formats for the data, different people involved, different performance metrics on the contracts. Now you've got your two sessions hopefully aligned: you got the folks on the ground ready to squirt the file AND you have the folks on the ground ready to "turn on the recorder" on board to receive the file.

    The event occurs: someone gives permission to radiate the commands turning on the recorder, someone gives permission to radiate the digitized movie, hopefully nothing goes wrong.
    Now you wait for the telemetry to return (within an hour or two) and you analyze it to see if it worked. If it did, then you get another command window to move the data (on ISS) from its temporary holding place to somewhere where the astronaut can get at it (a file server on ISS). You've probably scheduled that command window at the same time as you put in the request for the other windows, but, it *is* a different set of equipment on ISS, so there's probably a different set of people who need to review the commands you're going to send to do the file check and move.

    NONE of this happens automatically. There are "scripts" (or "timeliner") to automate some pieces, but there's still a lot of (at least in a virtual sense), "technician flips switch from standby to transmit" kind of operations. And, of course, immense recordkeeping and log requirements: every single person in the process probably has some way in which they log the request received, the proposed action, the actual action, any variations from procedure or expected results.

    God forbid anything hiccups, because that might require rescheduling a new event from scratch, not to mention an anomaly investigation.

  22. Different budget by p51d007 · · Score: 0

    It all comes from the same pile, which is the American taxpayer.

  23. Jewish nation-wreckers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you expect? The population of America is becoming more and more NON-WHITE, and most of them couldn't give a toss about space travel, because their IQ isn't high enough.

    "Spaceflight has faded from American consciousness" - LOL. Thanks to the nation-wrecking JEWS who opened your borders, took over the banking system and Congress, and send you to fight THEIR wars for them. And heaven forbid anybody actually criticises the Jews - don't you know they are the eternal victims?

    Watch "The Treblinka Archaeology Hoax":
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47rbRNSGQUs

    Oy vey! Such sufferink!

    1. Re: Jewish nation-wreckers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for clearing that up..... IDIOT!

  24. Send probes not people by mrflash818 · · Score: 1

    At this point, send probes, not people.

    Seems almost all the solar system's objects have been studied most effectively by probes.

    Would rather see future space research be to study and send probes to promising 'Earth 2' exoplanets.

    If another human-habitable planet is discovered, then might fuel real breakthroughs to get humankind finally spreading across the galaxy to colonize it.

    It seems once we see a real Goal (which to me would be finding another human-habitable planet), then we really start working towards it.

    --
    Uh, Linux geek since 1999.
    1. Re:Send probes not people by itzly · · Score: 1

      If another human-habitable planet is discovered, then might fuel real breakthroughs to get humankind finally spreading across the galaxy to colonize it.

      Interstellar travel would require unimaginable breakthroughs in propulsion. Even sending an unmanned probe, capable of slowing down to orbit another star, and then communicating over the enormous distance back to Earth is totally impossible with current technology.

    2. Re:Send probes not people by bored · · Score: 1

      Interstellar travel would require unimaginable breakthroughs in propulsion. Even sending an unmanned probe, capable of slowing down to orbit another star, and then communicating over the enormous distance back to Earth is totally impossible with current technology.

      By "current technology" you mean the lame chemical rockets we have been using for nearly a century? How about we step into the 1960's and actually build one of the proposed project Orion vehicles?. Something like that could actually reach another star within my children's lifetime, especially if it was only designed as a flyby rather than stopping in system.

      Furthermore, Nuclear thermal rockets provide approximately twice (depending on design) the ISP as conventional rockets, and are just as clean and possibly easier to build if the working fluid is carefully chosen. Frankly I'm a little surprised that space-x hasn't announced some designs, they aren't limited by the stupidity of the anti nuke crowd.

      Finally, the real breakthrough that would make human travel interstellar travel possible is actual cryogenic suspension. Which is quite possible, I just don't expect to see it in my lifetime due to the complete lack of funding for that kind of research. Most of the funding that goes in that direction is narrowly focused on prolonging organs outside of the body, or allowing extended surgical procedures. Frankly, this is one area where appropriate funding might be able to create a major scientific expansion of our understanding of biology, and economic benefits to go along with it.

      So, no, interstellar travel is not at the level of new physics, just a willingness to focus on the problem and solve the remaining issues.

  25. Where do you suggest they rehearse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    building the many-ton thing and gaining the skills needed to do so if not on a near-earth platform? Right now, our ability to get to Mars is about sending something the size of a mini-cooper that no one would like to be inside of as it lands (13G, stabilizing spin, 45 ft airbag bounces...). We've sent a series of landers that have the abilities of high-end lawn tractor piloted by a device with the brains of an obedient turtle on a 40 min round trip conversation delay. And each lander has done a bit of work and sent back a message that basically says "send another lander with different instruments". A person who can make decisions in real time, cope with exigencies and dust off the solar panels is not an inherently bad idea.

  26. GPS launches also go from Canaveral by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and NASA supplies the telemetry services for them. More than zilch on that alone.

    1. Re: GPS launches also go from Canaveral by KJSwartz · · Score: 1

      That is a beautiful thought. Any of those remote telemetry stations in military bases? Had NASA been in charge of GPS, we wouldn't have destroyed the plans of the original satellites, nor the higher precision add-ons. We are out of spare GPS satellites and a replacement has yet to be launched.

      Come to think of it: where are the GOES weather satellite replacements as well?

  27. The real challenge by CurveBall · · Score: 1

    Is convincing that army of ground support folks to relinquish their vice-like grip on the control they wield. There is a reason they are called "Controlllers" and "Directors".

  28. What's with the clickbait headline? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought you were better than that, slashdot...

  29. What an irrelevant statement. by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

    "We’ve got a permanent space colony, inaugurated a year before the setting of the iconic movie 2001: A Space Odyssey."

    Sorry but this is one ludicrous comparison, it's akin to saying a man on the moon was inaugurated long before the 7 wonders of the world.
    And where I quit reading as the rest was just going to be sensationalism.

  30. Space defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    intelligent countries that do not want to get plunged back into the Internet dark ages had best dominate space defense of our satellites , our communication systems, and our lives.
    Only ignorance believes that space travel and dominance is not important....and maybe an occasional trip to Mars

  31. Woo Alert! NASA Blocks Humanity! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What arrogant nonsense you spew! Does the "US government" speak for all of humanity? No they do not.

    If space was easy to do, that mythical government conspiracy you advertise would have been broken wide open by the Russians. Or the Japanese, Europeans, or now the Indians. Oh I know, SpaceX or Blue Origin or Armadillo Aerospace are actually covert actions by freedom-seeking rebel factions, glorious revolutionaries battling The Man! That's why they take place in Nicaragua, or Vietnam, or Bolivia.

    Oh wait...

  32. The New World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Somewhere over the horizon there will be a New World discovered. We should be sending astronauts with beads for when we get there first.

    1. Re: The New World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the New World will be called GOOGLE

  33. Math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    50 people around the clock is 16 or 17 on a shift. Figure a third of those are gofers. So a dozen people at a time, trying to coordinate a house sized thing going 17.5k mph across a series of comm links and keep each other shift coordinated... it's not off the charts. You have that many people making sure a head of state's day goes okey dokey.

  34. Sounds like bloatware. by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    It takes 50 staffers to make the schedules? Sounds like bloatware.

  35. tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone here know what a "synopsis" is? Apparently not, since we put half the article in the front page.

  36. Only partially correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For example, when you wrote " If you put out an add[sic] looking for volunteers for a mission that is almost 100% guaranteed to kill the volunteer, you will still get many thousands of times the number of volunteers as you need" you overlooked something VERY important: they won't be the KIND of volunteers you need.

    "Risk" and "Redundancy" are two VERY subjective things. Statistically you can compute a 1% chance a rocket will fail, BUT that does NOT mean you can say with ANY degreee of certainty WHICH of the first 100 launches will be the one that fails, nor for that matter can you forsee that you might launch 200 times successfully before suffering 3 failures in a row. The calculated "risk" will let you compare several alternate plans and pick the safer one, but it is absolutely NOT predictive with any degree of certainty. Redundancy is similar; some entity like Boeing can argue (as they did with the 777 to the FAA) that fewer engines equals more safety by virtue of fewer systems that can fail, or argue as SpaceX has with the Falcon9 that 9 engines are better than 1 because each contributes so little to the required thrust that if it fails the others can throttle-up to cover for the bad one. Both companies can point to absolute proof of their argument with situations where their argument won the day in an actual flight. Big firms like Boeing have actually taken both sides of this argument (the four engine redundancy of the 747 was one of the big arguments for its safety for over-ocean flights)

    The truth is that government agencies, like NASA, write the rules they need for the projects they want. NASA put two men aboard the first shuttle mission even though it was a completely untested vehicle with no launch abort system and practically no chance for survival for failures during the 1st 2 minutes of flight or the plasma-inducing part of reentry. NASA had a high threshold of risk before men landed on the moon and for the first few shuttle flights, but the risk threshold came WAY down after the Apollo13 mission and again after Challenger and Columbia (because politicians got cold feet fearing voter backlash even with NO evidence that the public actually was getting cold feet, indeed the public was more-supportive of replacing Challenger with a new orbiter than the people in congress were)

  37. You're 180 degrees out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The biggest problems with ISS are that [1] we built one that is too small, [2] we put it in the wrong orbit, and [3] we stopped flying shuttles; ALL of these were politicians messing with things for their own twisted reasons.

    1. it's FAR smaller than the "Space Station Freedom" Reagan proposed, and lacks many of the facilities "freedom" was supposed to have (like the large centrifuge module that is sitting on the ground unfinished and gathering dust, the maintenance and construction hangar that was to aid in satellite and exploration missions, and the US propulsion and guidance module the lack of which now makes ISS vulnerable to Russian blackmail). The crew is so small (currently 6) that the required maintenance takes too large a percent of the time of the people there. With a crew of perhaps 20, three of them might spen 100% of their time on maintenance, but the rest would be doing full-time productive work. The station was initially hugely shrunk by the Clinton administration as a cost-saving move, and then re-shrunk further by Bush43 post-Columbia when NASA was ordered to pronounce it "complete" as soon as it was minimally operational even though that meant major modules would never be put in place (the Bush team just wanted to "get it done" and then retire the orbiters ASAP to eliminate the political risks of another orbiter loss).

    2. It was SUPPOSED to be in either the same orbital plane as the moon, making it an excellent departure point for regular moon missions assembled at Freedom from shuttle-launched modules OR in the plane of the ecliptic making it ideal for assembling and launching manned and unmanned missions to the other planets. The orbit ISS is in is horrible for this; it was selected during the Clinton years as part of the change from Freedom to ISS when the Russians were invited into the project (both to share costs and to keep Russian space workers doing peaceful stuff after the Berlin Wall fell). The current orbital inclination makes the ISS pass over Russian facilities thus enabling the otherwise underpowered (for missions to ISS altitude but in those other orbital planes) Soyuz to reach it. The result though is that nothing is gained trying to use ISS to stage missions to other places.

    3. Shuttles were supposed to SHUTTLE people and supplies and experimenters to and from a station very frequently; perhaps even weekly. Now without shuttles, only Dragon can bring any real mass safely home from ISS, and Soyuz provides so few seats and with such severe conditions, particularly with high G forces and landing jolt, that we are not able to fly typical university and industry researchers WITH their experiments for missions of perhaps a week or two.

  38. um, no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US needs to SERIOUSLY clean-up ALL defense contractor buying programs, whether it's Lockmart F-35s, Lockmart Orion space capsules, Boeing air tankers, etc BUT we do not need to "trim" the military budget first; our military buget has been falling as a share of the budget for decades; in the 60's the pentagon got most of the federal budget, but now it's social spending and interest on the debt that are eating us alive. We actually have MORE treaty obligations now than we did in the sixties (our presidents and our State Department "experts" LOVE signing treaties, which they pretend have no COST, and then they grumble about the costs of the military capacity required to back-up those very same treaties) with many of our allies pouring their money into social spending and completely depending on us to protect them (and some of them then have the nerve to point to our big defense budgets as evidence that we are militaristic!)

    The US could, indeed, reduce its military budget provided it reduced its role as "global policeman" but this would either require ceding that role to countries the world would like a lot less (like China and Russia) or it would mean our allies like Germany, England, Canada, Japan, Australia, etc would have to triple or quadruple their defense budgets (which NONE seem inclined to do)

  39. Its definitely worth it! by thedonofdons · · Score: 1

    Any such journey is definitely worth it because what matters here is the JOURNEY itself and not the DESTINATION! Even all our lives is one such journey!
    http://popularbloggingtopics.c...

  40. Ah, but your 100 billion dollar robotic mission... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    would never happen for several reasons:

    1. because the robotic exploration champions have a demonstrated track record of total irresponsibility; EVERYBODY in Washington knows how severely these clowns lied about the James Webb telescope (among other programs) - they planned it to cost half a billion and launch in 2007, but now it's up to nearly 9 billion dollars and it's team has started leaking that it might slip from its 2018 launch date (it's already 11 YEARS over schedule and more than 1000% over budget) and even its apologists now claim as part of their defense that it's not nearly so over-budget because they initially mislead everybody on the costs and that the current cost is only perhaps 4 times what they internally thought it would cost.

    2. the taxpayers DO get mildly interested in an occasional robot rover as long as they don't know what it cost, but they do not actually get inspired by robots.

    3. your hundred billion dollar robot would still need a hundred years to do the science that one geologist could do in person in a year. This problem will only grow worse as destinations get further from Earth. Nothing beats the human brain, human creativity and imagination, and human dexterity in the realm of exploration - and when you have to suffer the round-trip signal delays of deep space missions, the amount of science that can be done by man remotely commanding robots is a severe constraint. Every robot out there has, essentially, a "panic" mode it falls into (all too frequently) where human judgement is required, and everything done remotely is so severely planned because a single glitch can cause the robot to lose contact permanently.

    4. there is no reason to send a robot if man is not going to follow. Simple academic curiosity is not enough reason to justify billions of dollars that could otherwise make life better here on Earth for actual people. We have plenty of pretty pictures from Hubble to fill all the pages of future astronomy books and use as backdrops in Hollywood productions and we can tell kids fictitious inspiring tales of "long ago and far away" if we just want to tell stories of far away places. If, however, man will eventually be going to these places to harvest resources and to colonize them, then we have an actual need for REAL DATA and a justification for spending money on sending robots to do the initial recon work.

    It's perfectly understandable that in a resource-constrained environment, there are people interested in space but unqualified (or too timid) to be astronauts who want to build careers in the field and who, therefore, are big supporters of robotic exploration and critics of manned spaceflight. Such people see every dollar spent sending man into space as a "wasted" dollar that could have funded their pet robot project. After all, one can in the era of unaccountable robotic exploration, spend ten years pushing a mission idea, another ten or fifteen building the robot, spend several years monitoring it on its flight to its destination, spend a few years remotely operating it and then a decade analyzing the returned data ... and then retire to a cushy professorship at some university. Very few things in science say "lifetime job" like a robot headed to another planet. Twas not always this way; there was a time when a team would design and build a series of probes (like the Rangers) designing them and their missions, building them, overseeing their launches and operations and still have time in their careers to move on to other stuff. Not so today. Today, deep space probe people are just as corrupt and adept at milking the government as the most corrupt defense contractors.

  41. You've fallen for a bit of popular propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yes, on the face of it, the US military budget is larger than the combined budgets of the next 10 or so (it fluctuates a bit), but the claim is always issued by people and groups who intend to decieve the general public who do not pay attention to details.

    First, The US government pays more money for each bit of hardware. Most US military hardware is made by highly-paid unionized workers with expensive retirement programs and even the raw materials are obtained in a more-expensive way because of US environmental regulations. China, as a contrasting example, can get its raw materials from unregulated strip mines and use nearly slave labor (compared to the US). Therefore an American tank will always cost vastly more than a Chinese or Russian tank. There's a famous saying that "quantity has a quality all its own".

    Second, the US military is an all-volunteer force. The US government must, therefore, provide wages and benefits to its service personnel and this is actually where most of the US defense budget goes (even though we have fewer people in uniform than, for example, China). Indeed, a large part of the US military budget includes benefits for retired servicemembers and those disabled by their service.

    Third, much of the US military spends its time defending our allies. We station people in South Korea, for example, who do NOTHING to protect the American people and in fact would be a trip wire that would drag the US INTO a war rather than defend us from one. This makes diplomats giddy and helps politicians pat each other on the back, but it has actually a negative defensive value. This has gotten so bad that a new situation has arrived in which the UK has currently cut its navy so severely that they do not have enough engineers to man their ships and the US has had to lend them some sailors. As an American, I am happy to see us do it for such an old ally.... BUT I wish the people there would WAKE UP and support a military strong enough to defent its own nation. Winston Churchill would be completely embarrassed and shocked by the state that current UK politicians (of all parties) have put their nation's military into.

  42. Irrelavent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Irrelevant. Humans are excessively inefficient carriers of DNA. Be free in the knowledge bacteria will outlive you and your spawn.

    Best enjoy nature and family and forget this fascination with science let alone philosophical pursuits.

    Remember you are only a stupid meat carcass that pays taxes

  43. What is old... is new again by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

    The cry of "Put the Astronauts in Charge" is as old as the Mercury program. The plain truth is that NASA needs to be scrapped, and we need to start over with a new agency that has a MISSION. Today, it's a jobs program who's main function is coming up with reasons to keep the budget increases in place year after year, and it's not doing that great of a job at that.

    This should be written in to EVERY FEDERAL AGENCY, that after so many years, they are disbanded, the paperwork shredded, and we just start over.

    This is exactly what happens in Corporations when they suffer big losses, or get acquired. It is a natural, evolutionary cleansing process that governments never do... It's a big part of the reason we have such an alarming deficit... All government agencies are on an auto-pilot growth program - that has nothing at all do with RESULTS and everything to do with getting funds in the congressional district that pays for the contributions to the politician's PAC.

    --
    Murphy was an optimist