Uber Must Submit CEO Emails

Rambo Tribble writes: Uber has lost its bid in U.S. federal court to avoid disclosing emails from Chief Executive Travis Kalanick in a California lawsuit accusing the popular ride-booking service of deceiving customers about how it shares tips with drivers. U.S. District Judge Edward Chen, in reference to U.S. Magistrate Judge Donna Ryu's ruling that the plaintiff in the lawsuit can receive emails from Kalanick and global operations chief Ryan Graves, wrote, "That Judge Ryu's order may require defendant to review approximately 21,000 documents does not represent an improper burden given the potential role of defendant's CEO and vice president of operations in defendant's challenged conduct." This comes amid mounting legal problems for Uber, including South Korea indicting Kalanick on charges he violated local licensing laws and numerous cities around the globe banning the service.

Comments

Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Frosty Piss]

This is not an "editorial" on Uber as a service compared to traditional cab services, but rather an observation that growing government regulation (banning) of Uber (and similar services) and the liability of an almost certain stream of lawsuits will simply negate any way for services like Uber to continue.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Lehk228]

not even expansion of regulations, uber was illegal from the start in many jurisdictions

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[thetoadwarrior]

It's not like they invented regulations to block Uber. They're simply making Uber play by the same rules which is fair. If Uber rather quit offering services to an area rather than comply with the law they're welcome to do that.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[BarbaraHudson]

Maybe it's time to change their name to "Unter"?

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Frosty Piss]

They're simply making Uber play by the same rules which is fair. If Uber rather quit offering services to an area rather than comply with the law they're welcome to do that.

Yes, but that would "level the playing field" which would cut into Uber's financial advantage.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uber has a good service and a potential future. What they need to do is start acting as an order portal for regular taxis. So that means selling the online service to taxi companies instead of end users.

But the real hold up here, if they go that route only, is gonna be the disappointment on the faces of the executives and the VCs who thought they'd all make billions because they made a popular internet app, which is the dream these days.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[OzPeter]

Add to that lots of backlash for the surge pricing, which comes across as pure gouging.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[quantaman]

This is not an "editorial" on Uber as a service compared to traditional cab services, but rather an observation that growing government regulation (banning) of Uber (and similar services) and the liability of an almost certain stream of lawsuits will simply negate any way for services like Uber to continue.

I think that Uber-like services are here to stay. They've simply been too effective at out-competing cabs, regulation can only slow down these things for so long, the question is what the eventual market looks like.

No matter what Uber-like phone apps are going to be part of the answer, the big question is whether the drivers will be "amateurs", driving their own cars and either working full-time or just making a few bucks on the side, or if they'll be medallioned taxis with all the artificial scarcity and extra regulations entailed with that.

If phone apps are the big things that make Uber better than traditional taxis might rebound and eventually kill the ride-sharing services.

If the marginal workforce (ie part-timers, students, etc) working for cheap and following high demand is what brings the benefits then I suspect the regulations will eventually find a way to allow them, and the future cab industry will consist of multiple small players signing up with driver networks.

Either way Uber is a bit of an interesting experiment business wise. They've got a massive first mover advantage to go with some horrible PR and it seems like a bunch of that first mover advantage comes from the fact that they're willing to be assholes and simply ignore the law.

They're one of those companies where I suspect a lot of people will jump ship the moment a viable alternative is available since there's so much borderline stuff going on. I suspect Lyft or one of the other services with slightly better PR will eventually surpass them once the regulatory environment has changed and the services start hitting critical mass so the network differences aren't as apparent.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Frosty Piss]

No, they're just using the regulations meant to block competition that they put into place 100 years ago to block competition today.

Not supported by fact, and anyone who has looked into the various issues surrounding unregulated taxi services knows this.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look it's argument by irrelevance.

Taxi regulations were put into place a hundred years ago because taxi brokers were unscrupulous and taxi work was a big risk for both the driver and the passenger. Similarly, today we find Uber as corporation to demonstrate highly unethical behaviour, drivers to be exploited (being an Uber driver is unsustainable if you properly insure and maintain your car), and as for customers... well, the first hit's always cheap.

It requires a particularly maladjusted tin foil hat to believe these regulations can in any way be compared with those flag-waving laws which were introduced specifically at the time of the introduction of the automobile as a result of lobbying by those who didn't like 'em. "Here's one ridiculous law, therefore any law I don't like can be compared to it!" is the most sophomoric argument, and you are an intellectually dishonest embarrassment to have applied it.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Frosty Piss]

There are already phone apps for licences taxi companies.

For example Curb.

Re:Stick a fork in, Uber is done.

[Zontar The Mindless]

Yes, they're rigged in favour of businesses which meet certain requirements in order to be permitted to operate.

Uber's business model is based upon ignoring these requirements.

To be fair, either Uber needs to meet the same requirements as traditional taxi companies, or the conditions need to be lifted for all firms wishing to offer cars and drivers for hire.

Which is it going to be?

Uber's in a completely different market

[Hadlock]

Everyone I know uses Uber, at least once a quarter. It only takes 5 minutes for an Uber to arrive and typically it only costs $5 to get a ride back to your car, or $20 to get a ride back home. When calling a taxi, you may or may not have someone arrive within an hour, especially during peak hours. What's the point? If it takes an hour for a Taxi to arrive and you're going less than 4 miles, it's faster to just walk.
 
Taxi companies want the Uber business, of course they do. But Uber customers hate taxis. They're dirty, filthy, never arrive on time and dealing with change/tips is a real hassle. Especially if it's late and you've been out with friends all night. If Uber disappeared from my city I'd just stop using similar services. Uber makes it just this side of bearable. Taxis are a fucking disaster and unless I'm headed home from the airport in a foreign city, I doubt you'll ever see me in one. If Uber disappears, so does my desire to use "taxi" services.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[gnasher719]

Part of Uber's billion dollar investment money well spent on marketing.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Anonymous Coward]

Tips? For a TAXI?

What the hell, people. Just pay the fare and you're done.

Longest I've waited for a taxi was 15 minutes. They've always been very clean. On time. No tips either. (though they ARE quite pricey)

I guess this quality difference in Taxi service might differ between countries. I'm from that socialist hellhole in northern Europe: Sweden.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Hadlock]

I wish(!) My car developed a short last winter and I switched to commuting by bicycle most days, Uber on the rainy/colder days (somewhat rare here in Dallas). It's about $6.50 one way to my office downtown from my house. I smashed up my hand (partial cut to my index finger's extendor tendon) and ended up taking Uber every day for three weeks while I was unable to ride my bike. I spend about $90/month on uber rides in the winter, it's pretty fantastic. If the city of Dallas were to ban Uber, I'd buy another car and go back to driving on cold rainy days. Between gas insurance and parking downtown, Uber actually comes out about $0.70 a day cheaper than owning a car full time. And I don't have to drive in rush hour traffic, so I can respond to work emails "in transit" which means I can leave the house 15 minutes later than normal, and my correspondence is already caught up for the morning before I walk through the door.
 
Uber is reliable and someone always shows up in 5 minutes. I've never had a taxi arrive less than 45 minutes after I called for one. Here in Dallas taxi's primary purpose is going between downtown and the airport. With Uber I've been able to finally write off my main reason for owning a car - reliable transportation, and do it in a cost effective manner.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Anonymous Coward]

You should see how Las Vegas handles cabs. There are a million cabs, but you are only allowed to board them in special designated areas. At these areas is a guy who whistles for the next cab and asks where you are going, then tells the cabbie where you are going, and he expects a tip as well. As soon as you get in the cab, the cabbie again asks where you are going and then the iPad in the back seat starts running loud ads for you to watch. The cabs can only take you to deisgnated drop off points.

The best part is at these pick up points there is usually 50 people waiting for a cab, and 50 cabs waiting in line for the guy to whistle to them. All cabs could be filled and line emptied in about 1 minute, but just so the whistling guy gets a tip you have to wait about half an hour.

I hate cabs in Las Vegas.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[houghi]

Not sure where you live, but where I live, taxi's have to pay taxes. They have to pay social security. They have to pay for meters. They have to pay for insurance with passengers. Also for extra technical testing of the cars. And also for the taxi stands.

If you cut all that out, it is obvious that itwill be cheaper. Illegal, but cheaper. Just as if I would run a sweatshop. Illegal, but cheaper.

That does not mean there are no problems with the taxi business, but running things illegal is not the solution. If anything it will enhance the problem.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you expected to have responded to correspondence before arriving at work?

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you see how much nonsense is in your post?

Everyone I know uses Uber,

One person I know uses Uber, occasionally. Woo anecdotes!

at least once a quarter.

Four times a year? Then either they have very rare need for a taxi service, or they know that taxis are better and choose Uber as a last resort.

It only takes 5 minutes for an Uber to arrive

Maybe at a time of little traffic in the most densely Uber-populated city in the world.

and typically it only costs $5 to get a ride back to your car, or $20 to get a ride back home.

These numbers have no meaning to anyone. Are you twenty paces away from your car, and eighty paces from home? What the fuck are you trying to say, apart from writing shit that deliberately makes Uber sound cheap, when without context it has no worth whatever? It typically costs me £8 to get a taxi back from town to my house. Since in the centre of town I'm usually within sight of a taxi rank, it costs me a bit fat fuck all and takes a few dozen seconds to walk to the taxi.

When calling a taxi, you may or may not have someone arrive within an hour,

Vacuously true.

especially during peak hours.

If, during peak hours, you always have someone available within 5 minutes on Uber, there's something you're not telling us.

If it takes an hour for a Taxi to arrive and you're going less than 4 miles, it's faster to just walk.

If the town is full of pterodactyls, it's safer to stay at home.

Taxi companies want the Uber business, of course they do.

Other way round, chum.

But Uber customers hate taxis.

Have you ever received any money from Uber? "XYZ customers want..." sounds like freshman marketing spiel.

They're dirty, filthy, never arrive on time

Maybe you're a cunt and have been blacklisted. You seem like a cunt. Perhaps they spray eau de shit around their cab when they see you coming?

and dealing with change/tips is a real hassle.

MOTHERFUCKING ARITHMETIC HOW DOES IT WORK? Also, tips lol? But you've just answered your own question: if you can use a smartphone but you're mentally too slow to count up coins or use a card where available, round up to provide a tip. If you can't round up, you're probably sufficiently cognitively disabled that you can't use the smartphone app required to operate Uber.

Especially if it's late and you've been out with friends all night.

Are you confessing to a drinking problem?

If Uber disappeared from my city I'd just stop using similar services.

How did you manage before Uber?

Uber makes it just this side of bearable.

My balls ache for your first world problem. How do you manage to maintain all these black and white fantasies?

Taxis are a fucking disaster and unless I'm headed home from the airport in a foreign city, I doubt you'll ever see me in one.

I usually rent a limo from an airport, tbh. Often cheaper and puts me in a good mood. This is one of the few times I won't use a regular taxi.

If Uber disappears, so does my desire to use "taxi" services.

If this means you stay at home more often, well, I guess there's another reason to get rid of Uber.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[r1348]

Well, you kinda expect to be ripped off in Vegas...

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[MisterSquid]

Uber is an ethically-challenged company. They are repeatedly in the news for their unscrupulous behavior (e.g. DDoSing their competitors by requesting and canceling rides) and dragged into court by multiple jurisdictions for their negligence in matters of insurance, background checks for their drivers, and predatory business practices.

Uber's CEO's tone deaf call to harass journalists was the last straw for me and I stopped using Uber and began using their competitor Lyft.

If Lyft is as good in your city as it is in mine, you may be pleasantly surprised should you also choose to switch.

I'm personally sick of hearing about Uber acting like assholes in the news and, for my money, they can't go under quickly enough.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[TWX]

You live in a suburban city, not an urban city. Your city was designed with with the automobile in mind, and the vast majority of residents of your city drive themselves. That goes a long way to explaining why you can't easily grab an unscheduled cab ride except from certain hubs of activity, as there's no profit in hanging out in the suburbs to wait for a fare that may or may not come.

I expect that you'll find taxis waiting at the airports, at busier hotels, at the sports venues during activities, at the convention centers during activities, at the more popular shopping centers, and possibly any of the higher-density downtown-type areas. Part of the reason you have to wait for a taxi in the suburbs is because they're going to pick you up after another fare into that part of the suburbs needs to be dropped off, so they can justify the trip out there.

The taxi services don't owe you anything. The taxi services are also operating within the law as the state, the counties, and the cities require, with commercial insurance, commercial vehicle inspections, and probably with extra screening for their drivers and their licenses. Uber, by claiming to be a ride-sharing service where the driver is supposedly already going your way and you're supposed to be reimbursing him for your portion of the drive, is cheating when the drivers are just picking up and dropping off fares without the drivers themselves having their own destinations to attend to along the route. Those drivers don't have the same insurance and don't have to have their vehicles inspected to commercial levels, and probably don't even have their drivers' licenses scrutinized.

Last time I took a taxi was in SF. Worked fine. Hailed one on the street and took it the few blocks I needed to go. That's a high-density city. I could have hailed one in London or in Paris, but I didn't need cabs in those cities. Either way, it would have been an easy option, where the population density was high enough to make it cost effective to have cabs roaming looking for fares.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Frosty Piss]

Not sure where you live, but where I live, taxi's have to pay taxes. They have to pay social security. They have to pay for meters. They have to pay for insurance with passengers. Also for extra technical testing of the cars. And also for the taxi stands.

If you cut all that out, it is obvious that itwill be cheaper. Illegal, but cheaper. Just as if I would run a sweatshop. Illegal, but cheaper.

I'm willing to accept that the cars might be nicer (though not inspected regularly for passenger service purposes), response time might be better. The issue that bothers me is insurance. , and what happens when an Uber driver is in an injury accedent, and where the liabilities land:

The insurance secret that Uber doesnâ(TM)t want you to know
Leaked transcript shows Geicoâ(TM)s stance against Uber, Lyft
Uber Advises Drivers To Buy Insurance That Leaves Them Uncovered

People think that taxi licencing is all about monopolies and cartels, but there are many other valid issues that regulation addresses.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[msauve]

The convention is to tip for personal services. That includes not only waitstaff, but bellstaff, barbers even the guys at the full service carwash (you'd be amazed at how much more time they will spend on your car after they get to know you!). You don't tip the bus driver, you do tip the cabdriver.

Do you get a bonus? That's the corporate equivalent of a tip, so perhaps you should refuse.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you don't even tip the other passengers after the plane lands, asshole.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[TapeCutter]

I'm sure the taxi industry will be crushed by the loss of your $5 per quarter.

Sure Uber is cheap, it makes it's money by exploiting people who are desperate for work and have a drivable car. After a few months the driver is still desperate but no longer has a drivable car because he can't afford the tyres/maintenance. Worst still, if the driver fucks up and doesn't have the right kind of registration/insurance then he will be paying for it for the rest of his life.

Disclaimer: Ex-taxi driver, Melbourne, late 80's. I once had a complainer like you in the cab, he had flagged me down and was in a big hurry, as soon as we got going he started bitching I wasn't going fast enough. When I pointed out I was driving at the speed limit he just became more cranky and replied "it would be quicker by bus". I pulled over at the next bus stop and threw him out of the cab, I let him keep the $5 on the meter, the look of shocked disbelief on his face was worth it.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[TWX]

That 'system' is only present in the old downtown and strip areas, and the reason for limited pickup and dropoff points in those areas is due to Vegas' limited-access city streets in those areas. They've erected Jersey barriers along most of the Strip now, to keep people from wandering out into the street and to try to force people to use the overhead walkways, and as a consequence it's tougher to get from the street to the sidewalk now too. I had to take a cab in Vegas because of a vehicle breakdown and it was no worse an experience than any other time I've taken a cab, it met me at my hotel and took me to the rental facility, no curb attendant, no weird pickup or dropoff areas.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[willworkforbeer]

Your anecdotal evidence points out an interesting aspect of the Uber argument. There may be countries where Uber is unnecessary due to a high quality existing taxi network. Uber will fail where the market offers no foothold.

It sounds like that's the case in your 'hellhole' (as an aside, if Swedish women are a ubiquitous feature of 'hellholes' then I'm investing long in hellhole futures)

For the US, most towns and cities have virtually zero cab service. Very large cities do, and the customer satisfaction concerning quality, cleanliness, and wait times is such that Uber and Uber clones are very successful. As is often the case with low-approval industries, the cab industry left itself open to this, and technology allowed Uber to plug the, um, 'Uber-size' hole of demand.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[TWX]

Have you read Dallas' rules governing livery?

Transportation Hire Regulations

It's pretty interesting stuff. While there appears to be a regulated cap on the number of taxis in Dallas, they have a lot of other regulations that are much more important, like age of the vehicle, condition of the vehicle, minimum insurance requirements ($500,000!), and the driving history of the operator.

Taxis with conventional drivetrains cannot be more than six years old. This means they're forced to be fuel efficient (though most drivers seem to want more fuel-efficient cars as they rent the car from the taxi company, so that's less of a problem than it used to be), less bad on the environment, and probably safer for passengers as newer cars generally perform in collisions better than their predecessors. Taxis also have their rates defined by the city, so that passengers aren't screwed over and can take any cab and get the same rate.

Uber might be able to operate as a Limo service, but would have to use vehicles that qualify as limos per Dallas' requirements, which must be luxury vehicles to qualify, and has otherwise most of the same insurance and driver record rules.

Laws covering things as mundane as public-interacting business are usually reactionary. Such high insurance limits are probably necessary to protect passengers, and fares defined by the city are designed to both keep customers from being screwed and to keep drivers earning a living wage.

Re:Uber's in a completely different market

[Dutch Gun]

The quotas exist for many reasons -- too many taxis means the typical taxi driver will starve due to over supply. And the flip side is, too few taxis means the customer will get price gouged.

How is this different from any other service or business? What you just described is exactly how the market tends to self-balance. I'm not really sure why taxis merit that sort of regulation, but not other businesses. You could make the same argument with Chinese restaurants. If too many of them are built, it might force prices down, and they could not earn a living.

I get licensing, as they're transporting potentially vulnerable people around what may be an unfamiliar city. I just don't get the quotas.

Re: Uber's in a completely different market

[spartacus_prime]

Where in Jersey are you finding gas station attendants expecting a tip?

Not true everywhere

[aepervius]

Especially not true in many countries where Uber was banned or is in the process of scrutinity. I have never had any dirty in Seoul, or in germany where I live, or in england (as a matter of disclosure I had a few dirty taxi in NY, true, but the vast majority of taxi I took in Dallas or other metropole in teh US were squicky clean). I had a few dirty taxi in Paris, but that was so long ago, and the few taxi I took in the last decade in france were clean too.

Anyway at least for germany I support the regulation and uber being forced to obey it. After all we do not have a medaillon system like in the US, everybody with the proper training driver licence, and the proper governemental check of their money counter, as well as the proper insurance (commercial passenger transport insurance) can become a taxi. In my city we have a lot of different taxi companies, some being simply a single person having repainted their own car (and having the proper papers). Nothing outrageous really, in fact those regulations make a lot of sense.

Re:oops..

[Anonymous Coward]

You think Uber comes up with their own ideas? That's priceless.

Taxi
Rideshare
Carpooling
Hitchhiking
Taxi dispatching via web (app)
Rideshare matching
Demand-driven pricing
Underinsured driving
Skirting or ignoring laws to save money
Hiring unqualified and/or unlicensed/permitted labor
The tomato (i.e. calling your stuff one thing when it's really another to save on taxes/tarrifs/costs)

These are all things that have been done before, and is, combined, essentially Uber's business model. Uber hasn't done anything except basically put it all in a pot and stir. So yes, he'll have gotten the idea from previous events, such as the one you mentioned.