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Better Learning Through Expensive Software? One Principal Thinks Not

theodp writes "Instead of improving the instructional practices of teachers," laments Chicago public school Principal Michael Beyer, "we are throwing vast sums of money and time at software and digital solutions that are largely untested, unproven and highly questionable." Ed-Tech vendors' so-called "weapons of mass instruction," argues Beyer, may show "gains" on the high-stakes tests because they mimic the targeted test format, but the learning gains don't necessarily transfer to the real world, or last much longer than the end of the school year. But technology in the classroom is not going away, as one commenter notes. So, what to do? Well, since U.S. CTO Megan Smith is looking for bigger technological fish to fry than weaning the White House off floppy disks, why not give her a crack at Ed-Tech, including a healthy budget and some Lab Schools where she could have educators and technologists brainstorm-and-prototype to separate the Ed-Tech wheat from the chaff without undue vendor influence and short-term test score pressure?

32 of 169 comments (clear)

  1. A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ed-Tech vendors' so-called "weapons of mass instruction," argues Beyer, may show "gains" on the high-stakes tests because they mimic the targeted test format, but the learning gains don't necessarily transfer to the real world, or last much longer than the end of the school year.

    This has long been a problem with "standardized tests", schools teach only to the test because their jobs and budgets depend on high numbers. Thinking and teaching outside the test? Not allowed, hell, we already don't teach proper handwriting anymore.

    We should absolutely be teaching technology in schools, starting with real actual math and reading comprehension, moving on to both software and hardware and other types of technology - I'm not a teacher, who knows... But like the house with an operating system, I think many of these new computer teaching tools are simply companies looking for ways to squeeze money out of people for things they don't really need, and if the government is paying for it, you know they paid a whole lot for it. Are we just fattening some venture capitalist's pocket with this stuff?

    I'm on the fence about the textbooks themselves being on tablets, maybe that makes sense. But if we are going to hand off teaching to computers, why pay for anything more than a human babysitter - or is that what we are doing already?

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > hell, we already don't teach proper handwriting anymore.

      What's next, not teaching to read an analog clock? Actually I suspect that has already happened. My early 20 something sisters don't know how to read an analog clock.

      Personally I hate the idea of turning textbooks into tablet apps or ebooks. Think of the DRM. University and college kids might want to keep the book forever (such as a good math book or a book on timeless algorithms). How long will the textbook "app" be usable? Will it expire? What happens when you don't want to use an iPad anymore? What about people who prefer reading books on paper instead of an LED screen because paper doesn't assault your eyes after hours of use. Also paper books don't send your every page turn, timestamp, and reading habbits to a server like eBook readers do.

    2. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 3, Interesting

      University and college kids might want to keep the book forever (such as a good math book or a book on timeless algorithms).

      You bet I want to keep a book I pay $200 for. Many of my basic references are fro college. This is not such a big deal for grade school and high school.

      And for me, I find that I can find and absorb material faster and better with printed references. Indeed, when I buy an technical ebook, I immediately print it out and put it in a ring binder (thanks, boss for the copier) ...

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    3. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by atherophage · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a school district tech I see school computers largely used as either babysitters or required devices for state administered standardized testing. Beyond that one problem is many teachers just-don't-get-it. Something as routine as forcing high school students to change their passwords brings our district help desk to a grinding halt. Educators complain about having multiple passwords for their domain login and the web-based grading application. The students pick-up on this attitude. Among the largest requests the help desk receives are setting the default printer and creating a shortcut on the desktop for various websites. No fancy software bundle can fix this.

    4. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      My early 20 something sisters don't know how to read an analog clock.

      Im not clear how exactly thats something the schools need to teach. Did they teach your siblings how to brush their teeth too?

    5. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      I can skim through a printed book to find something faster than the related eBook will load on a modern computer (really, why are they so slow?). Forget about trying to skim on an eReader; the UIs aren't designed for it. Yes, you can run a search on an eBook, but textbooks also have an index of all the terms worth searching for.

      There are studies that show you remember things better reading it from a physical book compared to reading it from an eReader. Physical books have texture and smell that get mixed in with the memories you're creating while reading it. In general the more associations you have to a memory, the easier it is to access.

      I use more eBooks than textbooks to save space and carrying weight, but I'm informed enough to know that physical books are better when learning.

    6. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Readers absorb less on Kindles than on paper, study finds http://www.theguardian.com/boo...

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      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    7. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by climb_no_fear · · Score: 3, Funny

      An analog clock?

      You insensitive clod, in my time, we read sundials

    8. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      When a student can't figure out something, it's often because the initial instructions were wrong for the learning style of the student.

      I'd suggest that the problem isn't "wrong for the learning style of the student", but rather "incomplete" or "wrong for the level of the student.

      The journal Psychological Science in the Public Interest did a literature review a few years back (Learning Styles: Concepts and Evidence) that identified all the methodologically sound studies into teaching to learning styles and found that they showed no evidence for anyone knowing how to teach to learning styles.

      What they looked for were "crossover conditions" -- they wanted to see two categories of learners with different styles (eg "visual learners" vs "auditory learners"), and two teaching methods (eg targetted at visual learners and at auditory learners). They needed to see both teaching methods applied to students from both categories. The condition that proved effectiveness of the teaching style was simple:

      Learners with a given style had to be shown to be better when taught with that style in mind, and therefore worse with the other ("wrong") style.

      What they found was that in all but one of the studies that qualified, if all students didn't do better with the same method, at the very least one of the groups did no worse on the "wrong" course than the "right" one.

      Their conclusion was that the studies showed that the difference between courses wasn't learning styles at all, but simply that one was better than the other.

      Meanwhile, we have clear and obvious evidence that students that are considered "slow" relative to their peers are suffering from poor prior knowledge, and that this problem is compounded over time as they are rushed through each stage without fully understanding it in order to keep up with the class.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    9. Re:A Big Money Pit of Dubious Value by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Computer monitors are a pretty standard tech, and if it ain't broke, don't waste your money replacing it. Computer manufacturers know this, but they still try to sell us a new monitor with every new desktop PC by offering us "crazee barginz!!!" on LCDs that aren't actually any better than the last CRT monitor I owned (I've been on laptops for a few update cycles, so I don't bother with external monitors any more -- and I have never once bought an LCD monitor).

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  2. Did You Even Read What You Wrote? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    theodp writes: Education is wasting too much money on tech, that shows no or worse results. Solution, more money for tech in education and more unproven expensive tech in classrooms.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Did You Even Read What You Wrote? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

      They are that way because of the system, not the teachers. Those kids that do not give a damn, as often as not, are the intelligent ones simply cannot go at the same pace as the rest of the class and still give a damn.
      Most of the rest of Those kids that do not give a damn are boys continually alienated by a school system designed for girls and women teachers.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    2. Re:Did You Even Read What You Wrote? by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Q: What is fun?
      A: The reaction to the experience of mental stimulation.

      Most mental stimulation is linked to learning. Even when a kid goes bombing down a hill on a BMX, they're learning. They're pushing the boundaries of their balance and performance, and trying to be that little bit more efficient than the time before. Once you get over the hurdle of initial engagement, you can fascinate a child with any genuine learning.

      Jerome Bruner and his colleagues once set about teaching quadratic equations to 8-year-olds, and because the method of teaching was meaningful and subject to a logical progression, the kids just soaked it up.

      The biggest difficulty with initial engagement is assessing prior knowledge. Not having enough prior knowledge to carry out the first step is (unsurprisingly) quite powerful in convincing kids that learning is for other people.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  3. Trained dependency is the danger. by javaman235 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Learning computer programs to solve math problems (for instance) can be empowering for the kids, unless they end up dependent on those proprietary programs. I think the best solution for that threat, along with some of the other issues raised in the OP is a tool set which gets kids developing software, even at really simple levels, early in their educational careers. That may sound crazy, but the world is changing, and many of the educational ideas we take for granted today sounded crazy in their times as well.

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    -The art of programming is the pursuit of absolute simplicity.
  4. Chicago schools by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After being a teacher in Joliet , Illinois system and seeing what passes for teaching and parental involvement in the Chicago land area I can quite firmly state that it isn't the money taxpayers spend, the technology that is invested in the area, nor the opportunities that students have that is the real issue.

    The real issue is that there needs to be a clean out of lazy teachers and administration that refuses to interact with parents- a gallon of bleach dumped into the leach pool.

    These children need people to intervene and make sure to involve the parents in all aspects of their education. Instead, we have more people involved on getting paid and protecting their pension.

    It's quite sad.

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    _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    1. Re:Chicago schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Wikidrones have invaded Slashdot and demand that every post be backed by "sources" (ex. wikipedia). Of course, except for real scientific studies, no source especially on the internet is worth more than anybody's opinion. So in the end, this is done only to cast doubt on reasonable or interesting posts.

    2. Re:Chicago schools by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Don't forget that the Peter Principle was discovered in education and only generalized after its validity there was firmly established.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Chicago schools by thesupraman · · Score: 2

      This, exactly this, and not just in the US, in pretty much every westernised education system.

      Add to that of course addressing the HUGE gender imbalance in teaching (where is the effort to get more male teachers? yeah right,
      they are being actively removed...)

      Schools have become comfortable little fiefdoms with a dirty mixture of self interest, paranoia, and financial incest. The system needs to be stripped open
      and scrubbed clean.

      Once upon a time we had a media who would do the hard yards to achieve such things. Once..

    4. Re:Chicago schools by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are stating step 3, without steps 1-2 or 4+.

      Looks like a secret. What I've found is that 90% of parents complain that they can't get involved. Then get the notice for the PTA meeting, and refuse to come. Then show up at a school board meeting to complain about the school. The parents don't want to be involved. Every effort to involve them is a waste of time. I've seen it happen as a student and a parent. Have you actually tried engaging parents? Or just complained that the parents weren't trying to get involved, and blamed the school?

    5. Re:Chicago schools by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The real issue is that there needs to be a clean out of lazy teachers and administration that refuses to interact with parents- a gallon of bleach dumped into the leach pool.

      Nope, what needs to be done is to nuke the entire syllabus and system from orbit, pretty much. Even with the best will in the world, it's hard to extract anything of worth from the way most subjects are taught. You get this insane system runing round itself in circles (endless tests) to teach worthless subjects (the way e.g. maths is taught seems to be to remove any insight, ffun and worth from it and replace it with midless drudgery, and English, oh gosh whre to even begin). the result is you get both students and teachers who after a few years find it terribly hard to give a crap.

      Only the teachers have to put up with it far longer than students.

      With no other changes, the next lot of teachers you get to replace the current ones will soon end up apathetic and lazy because that's an almost inevitable result of the system.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    6. Re:Chicago schools by FlyingGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok, so here I am with serious mod points and should be modding but I have to take umbrage with your remarks

      First of all there have to be parents that are able to interact and for that to happen you need to have at least one parent who is not exhausted after commuting, working long hours and being forced to answer e-mails from PHB's on the weekends and all other times of the day and night and having to drag work home with them to keep up with ludicrous demands.

      • We have to get over this "every child must go to college" sickness and realize we actually need skilled trades a recognize the immense value.
      • We have to start teaching how to approach and solve problems mathematically, instead of teaching times tables. We have to teach SI for gods sake!
      • We have to desperately figure out a way to teach algebra that is not completely mind numbing.
      • We have to put industrial arts backing into high schools! When I was in high school I learned to weld, to use a metal lathe and a milling machine, how to cast aluminum and bronze. I could also take serious wood shop ( we built furniture for fucks sake! ) or serious automotive classes.
      • We simply MUST get on the metric system, I mean really, we are still doing shit in 12ths, really!?!
      • We simply MUST start teaching computer programming as an ART because is IS an art.

      Video games are NOT the answer, never have been never will be. We have to stop coddling children and actually educate them. My son is 13 and still I have to keep on him to get his homework done, and that is my job and I have to do it why? Because he IS 13 and just wants to play soccer and hang out with his buddies.

      Yes there are some lazy teachers, but the vast majority of them really want to do good AND have parental involvement. Teachers know how to teach if you will let them and stop dumbing everything down, we have to raise our standards, not lower them.

      Another thing... I don't give a FUCK what color your skin is, or whatever "troubles" you have. Take a swing at another student and that student didn't swing first, your fucking outa there! Caught with drugs or booze in school, you are fucking outa there. Take a swing at a teacher, your fucking outa there! Be a teacher and fuck a student, you go to prison, Throw a fist at a student who threw a fist and another student, or grabbed my daughters ass, you get a fucking medal!

      Parents, you let your kid show up with his pants hanging below his ass? You get called, you either pick them up or the cops come pick you up, the school is NOT your fucking baby sitter!! You let your daughter go to school in Yoga pants leaving no doubt just how deep her camel toe goes or just exactly how deep her cleavage goes? You get called, you either pick them up or the cops come pick you up, the school is NOT your fucking baby sitter!!

      School is a learning environment not a dating service or fight club

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
  5. Re:The Deliberate Dumbing Down of Education by Sigma+7 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Charlotte Iserbyt is calling it a probable Soviet KGB conspiracy... which tends to damage her credibility. See http://www.newswithviews.com/i...

    Despite this, she's still accurate when saying that the education system is in decay, as it shouldn't be that expensive to teach basic reading, writing and computation.

  6. Why not give her a crack at Ed-Tech? by Kuroji · · Score: 2

    Because we already have a secretary of education and that should be HIS damned job.

  7. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  8. Stop with the tabloid news, please! by LongearedBat · · Score: 2

    This is just from today:

    Better Learning Through Expensive Software? One Principal Thinks Not
    Professor: Young People Are "Lost Generation" Who Can No Longer Fix Gadgets
    Writer: How My Mom Got Hacked
    US CTO Tries To Wean the White House Off Floppy Disks

    Perhaps some of those are interesting topics and it's just me who is picky. But really, topics such as these are why I came to /. :

    Experiments Create Particles Out of a Vacuum Using Neutrinos
    The Missing Piece of the Smart Home Revolution: The Operating System

  9. Re: How about no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are certainly on the right track here, but the question of prestige is either chicken and egg or the tail wagging the dog depending on who you ask. My wife is often asked why she got a degree in education when she is apparently so intelligent. (Thanks!) She didn't. She got a BS in microbiology and molecular genetics before rejecting(!) grad school and med school. She then earned an MS in Biology (not Bio education or MST, etc.. A research oriented degree.) She lives in a rare state where she is paid a nearly fair wage.

    The biggest problem to her retention is the intense disrespect she faces from nearly every stranger she meets. (And, fwiw, she isn't much worried personally about standardized test scores -- her students are almost always the highest in the district. The perfect student scorers are almost always hers.)

    When people insult teachers very broadly, as they almost always do now, its hard to stay, much less to commit to what is perceived as a "sinking ship" full of stupid folk.

    Fixing the professional guideposts is not enough alone -- fix the dialogue. We finally, after the Vietnam war in the US, decided to respect the majority of the troops and hold the institution responsible for the big fuck ups, and while some soldiers *are* stupid both the society at large and the military have seen the benefit, recruitment and otherwise.

  10. Nice try by bussdriver · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I know about education; I'm in the field too.

    The real problem in modern education in the USA is that the Republicans entered into the issue. I'm not saying their ideas are all horrible; but that the political fight was so much smaller so the teachers and schools were not in the middle of a political culture war. You see, what really started the mess was that public polling showed voters ranked education higher in priority than in the past and that turned it into a two party political football. The rest is a bunch of policies and ideas which have zero basis in reality and everything to do about sounding good, getting votes, and political BRANDING. SO BOTH PARTIES WORK TO DESTROY IT like everything else they touch these days. That has harmed the system greatly which only reflects the broken political system, just another thing that precedes the collapse of a once great democracy.

    Furthermore, education is not a business. You can't turn education into an easy statistic like sales and students are NOT customers!! They are not supposed to be happy customers with a "your #1" sticker handed out to everybody and every parent is immune from criticism. The culture is all fucked up; used to be the student was to blame, now the special snowflakes are perfect and the teacher is always the problem.

    Yes, technology needs to be PROVEN before it's allowed to be used. SCIENCE should decide everything. That means parents (voters) will be pleased. automated tests have yet to be intelligent. I can interview a student and assess them quicker and more accurately than any static test plus they can't ever fool me. But in the land of lawsuits somebody will be upset they didn't get their "your #1" sticker... while the multiple choice exam allows many times more to sneak bye or undeservedly fail.

    SCIENCE:
    We can't even adjust school hours to fit best with sleeping patterns of the children when that stuff has been known forever.

    Science says that middle school kids shouldn't even be educated conventionally. They need emotional development training and stuff so out of the norm many people would revolt. Most education problems are psychologically based and their parents and environment are HUGE factors. If you apply developmental psychology instead of acting like it doesn't exist, you would turn poor performing students, future criminals, and fragile suicide kids into good students and functional adults. Naturally, parents would be upset because they'd have responsibilities, something which they avoid like everything today.

    Parents want free daycare. Some need it too. Snow days not only cause parents to call in irate, but it also means some children DO NOT EAT.

    There is so much wrong which has so much more impact-- but we only can discuss a FEW issues and wave some shiny new toy in the public's eye... like they were children.

  11. It all boils down to commissions by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The very highest priced software is able to offer their sales people the largest commissions and the largest marketing budgets. Thus they can do all kinds of scumbag things such as hire top educators for "consulting" contracts and whatnot. These same educators are then the ones who decide which software is "best" for their school system. Also with a sizeable commission the rewards for selling a fair sized school system on some pile of crap software system are massive. Almost set-for-life massive.

    Thus opensource or extremely economical systems simply can't compete. There are no scumbag salesmen using bribery and other underhanded techniques to market these solutions and as we all experienced while in schools there is no real science or evidence used when they claim to be using evidence based teaching. Any time they use studies or evidence to choose one system over another it will be evidence supplied by a large vendor.

    For instance, nearly every time I hear of a new solution being implemented in my children's schools somehow one of the top decision makers has a stake in the company. Either they (or a spouse) worked for the company, work for the company, or will end up working for the company. And somehow the government "ethics" watchdogs will approve this because the person filled out the correct forms.

    If I were the head person for a large school system I would immediately eliminate all contact with salespeople from all vendors. Then I would have internal committees evaluate the various offerings (including open source and low cost vendors) equally. I would also publish all the findings so that other education systems could exploit the results. But most importantly I would tell the people who were evaluating the various systems that if they have any contact with a vendor that we would immediately eliminate that vendor from consideration. And if the contact somehow were to the benefit of the examiner that their job would be in jeopardy.

  12. Be a Good Parent by some+old+guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    TFA is a dot on the trend line of parental and educational laziness, IMHO. Parents slough off responsibility for their kids' educations to schools of questionable quality. The schools in turn palm of their work to computers. It's sad, and the only effective remedy is parental re-involvement.

    I knew the schools sucked when my son was reading 3 grade levels above his peers at age 6. Now he's a sophomore in High School, and further along (knowlege-wise) toward his BSEE than most e-school juniors because I take the time to not just nurture and encourage but actually teach him at whatever level he is ready for. He's 15, and has built his own Siemens S7 PLC lab project. His science classmates won't get Ohm's Law till next year. Pity them.

    We can blab all day about how to fix teh skoolz, but when it comes to your own kids, give them your best. As a parent, you owe it to them. The schools aren't going to do it for you.

    --
    Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
  13. Re:How about no by phayes · · Score: 2

    ...we can do what other successful countries have done, which is to:

    d. Focus on reforming the teaching profession, from the ground up, so that teachers are the best educated, most well respected, most prominent members of the community.

    Where exactly is this magical land where teachers are "the best educated, most well respected, most prominent members of the community"? I've been to a lot of countries talked with a lot of teachers & professors but none fit the glass slipper you evoke.

    --
    Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
  14. Vital Testing by JimSadler · · Score: 2

    Corruption is the cause of being able to "teach to the test". Properly done teachers would have no warning about the nature of a test at all. By giving several, short tests a year, the tests could each be specialized such as a narrow focus on geography one month and a focus on plane geometry the next month, the history of a major nation on yet another test and so on and so on . The scores would tell a lot about the general knowledge of a student and the parents could be able to judge the quality of their kids' schools. Reading and retention skills or reading and interpretation skills can be addressed. When a school tests poorly then the next step is to find out why. Usually kids that test poorly come from low income homes. Sadly there is very little a conventional school can do to overcome the the effects of poverty on children. Solutions could be to take kids out of the homes or to provide higher incomes to the poor. Neither of those solutions is likely to occur in the US due to our rather perverse social customs.

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3

    Comment removed based on user account deletion