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Why We're Not Going To See Sub-orbital Airliners

glowend writes: Sci-fi author Charlie Stross has an article about sub-orbital flight, and why we'll never see it as a common mode of transportation. Quoting: "Yes, we can save some fuel by travelling above the atmosphere and cutting air resistance, but it's not a free lunch: you expend energy getting up to altitude and speed, and the fuel burn for going faster rises nonlinearly with speed. Concorde, flying trans-Atlantic at Mach 2.0, burned about the same amount of fuel as a Boeing 747 of similar vintage flying trans-Atlantic at Mach 0.85 ... while carrying less than a quarter as many passengers. Rockets aren't a magic technology. Neither are hybrid hypersonic air-breathing gadgets like Reaction Engines' Sabre engine. It's going to be a wee bit expensive."

Stross also makes a more general proposition that's particularly interesting to me: "One of the failure modes of extrapolative SF is to assume that just because something is technologically feasible, it will happen. ... Someone has to want it enough to pay for it—and it will be competing with other, possibly more attractive options."

30 of 300 comments (clear)

  1. huh? by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So, you're not going to see it, because it doesn't save money. Except, it has the potential to be many times faster. Which is a reason to use it that isn't "it costs less." So the argument can't hope to support its thesis. If it happens or not is not based on just if "because we can." It is going to happen or not based on the actual advantages of being faster, their value, and the final cost.

    We can certainly say, based on our experience with Concord, that if it is fast enough and safe enough the rich will use it, and if it as safety issues, they will abandon it quickly.

    1. Re:huh? by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yet Concord no longer flies. They had a damn good safety record too. Its a little tough to compare because there were really only two airline operating them through most of there service life, but there was one major crash! One!

      If anything the crash, made everyone wake up and realize the youngest of those birds was more than 30 years old. Which is pretty well EOL for airliners.

      They stopped building them and they were only flying them because they had them, a sunk cost. The airlines recognized there in fact were not really enough rich people to sell tickets to such that they could be operated profitably if they had to pay for their own depreciation to enable purchase of a new bird. Either that or they figured if the charged what they would really need to not even the rich would bother.

      No it was not safety that killed the Concord, it was cost and it was dead bird flying a long time before the accident in 2000.

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    2. Re:huh? by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Informative

      Concorde service was never very profitable, in the end it was run for prestige. Concorde service was notoriously unprofitable through the 1970s and only made it to the 1980s with heavy government subsidy of the tickets -- it was in the early 80s that BA took control of the program and you started seeing the $10,000 tickets. It made a little money in the end but it just didn't produce the kind of money that justified the other expenses and hassles. After September 11th they just couldn't justify the service on those merits, notwithstanding

      Since then, jets' biggest competitors for wealthy business travel aren't each other, their biggest competitor is telecommuting and telepresence.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    3. Re:huh? by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right, they no longer fly, but they flew for a long time and tickets sold well, right up until the end when renewed safety concerns led to the decision to retire them. They were never a big money-maker, but they were popular and commanded high ticket prices.

      The reason they no longer fly is that they didn't make enough money to stimulate a new product generation, and the old product was retired after a long service life. They weren't getting safer as they got older, and after a crash there are expectations of design analysis, upgrades, etc., that would have been expensive and wasn't warranted for such an old aircraft.

      People who read that as some sort of spectacular failure that would prevent interest, or imply lack of interest, in high speed flight, well, that is just silliness. It was clearly a successful craft, it flew full, and yet it didn't make a boatload of money. Lots of airlines around the world operate at a loss, that is actually normal for the industry and does not alone tell you if the airplanes they are buying are successful models or not.

    4. Re:huh? by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Informative

      You've got some missing historical knowledge there. It was so loud it would actually damage tomatoes on the vine. (true story)

      And it wasn't "banned" in the US, it was just required to operate at regular speeds.

      Also.. Boeing has a large number of supersonic aircraft. Google it. ;) They're actually quite good at it, not some bumblers who couldn't get a prototype. It turns out, the market for them isn't really with airliners, because... well, because tomatoes.

    5. Re:huh? by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      SUV's are pretty fuel-efficient per passenger mile if you fill them up with people and stuff. They're just bad commuter vehicles.

      All those suburban moms drive SUV's because it's a vehicle with a lot of utility - seats four in comfort, with plenty of room for luggage and supplies, plus you can use it for trucking things around. People buy cars to account for all their usage, not just the most common parts.

    6. Re:huh? by fnj · · Score: 4, Informative

      Me driving my car with nobody else in it is just as efficient as the average of domestic airliners. Yeah, I get over 40 mpg. A lot of people do.

      Ships are TERRIBLY, spectacularly inefficient for passenger transportation. Queen Mary 2 has a mass of 75,000 tonnes with a capacity of 2620 passengers. That's 155 tonnes pulling each individual passenger. She burns 12 tonnes of fuel every hour to move about 25 nautical miles. That works out to roughly 9 mpg per passenger.

      Dry and liquid freight is a completely different story. Tankers and container ships are not making as much speed, and they are using less than one tonne to support each tonne of payload. Often MUCH less.

      If you gutted out the accommodations and packed people into Queen Mary 2 in airliner coach seating, it would be a lot more efficient (if you could get 99% of them to sit nowhere near a window for long periods, and they didn't all die from DVT), but you would still cube out.

    7. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The crash was caused by French arrogance. The British knew of the danger to the fuel tanks and designed a fix. They offered it to the French who said "Non!"

      A British Concorde would have survived.

    8. Re:huh? by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, faster was important when you didn't have to be at the airport three hours before your flight for your ceremonial security grope theater.

    9. Re:huh? by dryeo · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Queen Mary 2 is not a good representation of a traditional ocean liner. No steerage class, at that, going from memory, it is basically one class that is awfully close to first class.
      Last time I crossed the Atlantic by ocean liner, it took a week which gives an average speed closer to 15 knots and where our cabin was, we did not have windows and were probably below the water line. Very small cabin that 5 of us were crammed in. At the time it was much cheaper then flying even considering that we had to pay for a weeks food etc. Of course flying wasn't so subsidized back then and cost much more then now.

      --
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    10. Re:huh? by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      exponential

      That word does not mean what you think it does.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:huh? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Informative

      In fact, they lost money on every flight.

      Only the French ones. The BA ones were actually profitable.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    12. Re:huh? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, it really couldn't have - the Virgin Atlantic offering, like many of Bransons stunts, was nothing more than a PR exercise. He even used some of the typical bullshit myths surrounding the Concorde in order to put BA in a bad light - "you were given them for £1 each, so heres £7 give us seven Concordes and we will call it evens..." etc (BA didn't get them for a quid each, they paid real money for the core fleet which they ordered, and took on several unsold airframes at a slightly reduced price but still real money). Virgin also wanted all of the support infrastructure at Heathrow and elsewhere for a song as well - all of that was worth more than the Concorde airframes.

      Virgin Atlantic and Branson were also ignoring the fact that the responsible manufacturer (Airbus) had withdrawn the type certificate and support for the aircraft, so there was absolutely no way VA were going to fly them except under an experimental certificate, which forbids passengers.

    13. Re:huh? by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It certainly was loud. I was in the next plane to take off from the same Heathrow runway on several occasions and can tell you that it is the only plane I ever heard above the noise of my own aircraft (usually Tristar, if memory serves). It was worth it! One of the most beautiful planes flying.

      I lived under the heathrow flightpath, and in our school, which had sound-proofing, you could still clearly hear Concorde passing over. I remember one day in a lesson it got really loud, so loud that the teacher had to stop talking and some people put their hands over their ears. It turned out that the undercarriage of the plane landing before Concorde had collapsed and Concorde had to abort the landing, which meant using 100% thrust over the noise-abatement area, something that it was not normally allowed to do.

    14. Re:huh? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Informative

      The reason they no longer fly is that they didn't make enough money to stimulate a new product generation

      Indirectly, yes. What prevented them making more money was being banned at many airports over largely unfounded concerns over noise. What promoted the largely unfounded concerns about noise was that US airports wanted to support Boeing's SST effort by blocking the competition that got there first.

      There are quite a few orders of Concorde lined up, it was only when some US airports decided to ban it that they dried up. Had they not done that there would have been regular flights to the Middle East and Far East, as well as over the Atlantic. Boeing's own SST might have been finished too, instead of being abandoned.

      By now we would have much more efficient SSTs running at much lower cost.

      --
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    15. Re:huh? by tehcyder · · Score: 3, Funny

      Last time I crossed the Atlantic by ocean liner

      That ranks up with "and that's how I had my most recent foursome with blonde cheerleader triplets" in my list of phrases I never expected to read on slashdot.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  2. I think the thing being missed here by Pikoro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the thing being missed here is that people are in a hurry. If I can fly a 747 from Seattle to Japan and the flight takes 14 hours, I would pay more to be able to do it in 7. That's an easy choice. Time spent in the air is generally wasted time. Turn trans-Pacific/Atlantic into a weekend trip instead of the current 3 days of travel time and there's a market for it.

    The futuristic prediction that it would be economical to take a sub-orbital flight from NY to LA is probably not going to happen, but for trans oceanic and/or China/Japan to Europe. Definitely a market there.

    --
    "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
    1. Re:I think the thing being missed here by iluvcapra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the thing being missed here is that people are in a hurry. If I can fly a 747 from Seattle to Japan and the flight takes 14 hours, I would pay more to be able to do it in 7.

      Would you pay ten times more? That's the kind of factor you'd be looking at for that kind of speedup.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:I think the thing being missed here by Nutria · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the flight takes 14 hours,

      10 hours, nonstop.

      Turn trans-Pacific/Atlantic into a weekend trip instead of the current 3 days of travel time and there's a market for it.

      The Concorde turned a 6 hour flight across the Atlantic into a 3 hour flight. Why, then, was the Concorde economically unfeasible? Cost

      Those sub-orbital flights will cost a lot more than the Concorde flights. People will say, "$1200 for a 10 hour flight, or $5000 for a 4 hour flight?" Sure, a handful will pick the $5000 ticket ($20,000 when you add in spouse and a couple of children) but most will say, "4 hours is not worth $15,200."

      --
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    3. Re:I think the thing being missed here by steveha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the thing being missed here is that people are in a hurry.

      I think you didn't read TFA. Relevant:

      The VIPs are leaving the carriers, driven away by the security annoyances and drawn by the convenience of much smaller jets that come when they call.

      For rich people, time is the only thing money can't buy. A [hypersonic aircraft] flying between fixed hubs along pre-timed flight paths under conditions of high security is not convenient. A bizjet that flies at their beck and call is actually speedier across most intercontinental routes, unless the hypersonic route is serviced by multiple daily flights—which isn't going to happen unless the operating costs are comparable to a subsonic craft.

      I know that if I had the money, I'd prefer to fly by bizjet. If I'm 5 minutes late it is still there waiting for me, and it flies from where I am directly to where I need to go... that's pretty hard to beat.

      And he's right that governments will get really nervous about hypersonic craft. As he says in TFA, the hypersonic flight could stick to its planned flight path and then deviate only for the last 20 minutes, and still be able to hit an arbitrary target. With less time to react to the threat, government will try to preemptively secure each flight, which means the already-inconvenient airport security will get even more inconvenient.

      Thus his point that even if hypersonic airplanes were available to them, rich people would rather fly a subsonic bizjet with minimal hassles (and with Internet available during the flight) rather than get to an airport on time, wait in the security holding pen with all the other common horde, undergo intrusive security procedures, fly really fast to whatever hub airport the hypersonic flight goes to, and then likely have to travel some more to get to the actually desired destination.

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    4. Re:I think the thing being missed here by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I paid $100 for a 512MB compact flash card in late 2004, or $200 per GB. I just ordered a 32GB USB 3.0 flash drive for $13, or $0.41 per GB. A 500-fold decrease in cost in just 10 years.

      Moore's Law does not apply to jet engines.

      The affordability also hinges on income (productivity per person), which has more than doubled since the 1940s

      Nominal income hasn't significantly changed in the US since 2000, and has only improved 20% since 1980 (that's less than 3% per year). Productivity has gone up but all the gains have accrued to the highest income percentiles. So you're right, somebody will be able to buy flights on the aerospike liner, but it's not going to be something that "people" do, it'll be for the rich.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:I think the thing being missed here by Kjella · · Score: 4, Informative

      They've built planes like the Gulfstream G650, 14 passengers and 7500nm range which means that from New York you can reach Tokyo to the west and Dubai to the east non-stop. It won't take you to Australia or South Africa but it's fairly global. A full range trip works out to $200-$250k so it's not for the average person but if you're a multimillionaire flying with an entourage between two local airports - a 14 passenger plane can probably land just about anywhere - then it wasn't as absurdly expensive as I thought. A little out of my budget tho.

      --
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  3. SF Economic Plausibility by crow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yup, this raise one of my big complaints about some SciFi stories: lack of economic plausibility.

    Science Fiction is great for looking at how we might deal with various potential technologies. Readers are perfectly happy to suspend disbelief and accept whatever technology is proposed. What readers aren't willing to do is suspend disbelief and accept people behaving implausibly.

    To write good science fiction, you need to accurately portray people. You can make up the technology, but you have to get humanity right. And that means you have to get the economics right.

    This is exactly the problem I had with reading the Hunger Games. Everything worked, except why would a society with hover cars and other advanced technology have need of the services of the districts? Surely they didn't need coal, and yet they had a whole district dedicated to mining it. The lack of economic sense pulled me out of the book. Instead of thinking about the characters, I was thinking about why the society that was described didn't make any sense.

    1. Re:SF Economic Plausibility by iluvcapra · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Surely they didn't need coal, and yet they had a whole district dedicated to mining it.

      I'm not sure the Ancient Egyptians needed pyramids, either. Europe is also dotted with stupendously huge cathedrals that basically nobody uses anymore, and even when they were built their actual utility or even ecclesiastical justifications were pretty flaky, they were built mostly by towns competing with each other.

      The impression I always got from HG was that the society was driven by outright class warfare as a kind of ideology. They didn't make the districts mine coal because they needed it, they made them mine coal because coal mining is a modality of suffering. The only imperative was: the Districts must suffer.

      The 20th century is full of examples of state's imposing illogical, and pointless, and wasteful punishments upon people only to demonstrate the state's power. The German Army, when it was retreating from Russia, had to constantly fight with Eichmann's department for train stock and trackage, because moving Jews to concentration camps was actually given a higher priority than troop movements. Or, when Germany made an alliance with a country like Hungary or Croatia, they made it clear that it didn't matter how many army divisions they committed to the German war effort: their loyalty would be measured strictly on the basis of how many Jews and gypsies they expatriated every day.

      The whole point is to send a message to everyone: we can punish whoever we want, neither laws, nor efficiency, nor common sense will stop us, so don't cause trouble. Nothing can take a higher priority than that because that's the entire society is founded in coercion and force.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:SF Economic Plausibility by lgw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why? Snobbery is not taste, you know. YA genre fiction is often quite entertaining, and the prose quality of the Hunger Games books was fine. While the premise was a bit goofy, the writing was at least consistent.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:SF Economic Plausibility by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The story apparently seeks to establish that these methods do not teach the desired lessons, but instead, teaches people that the leaders are evil, and that compliance doesn't protect or save them, and that their Hope is to resist evil, even at a high cost.

      Well, duh.

      The problem with Hunger Games was not that it was hard to understand, but that it was politically retarded, and nowhere near as funny as Battle Royale.

  4. An adjunct proposition by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    An adjunct proposition to consider is that certain technologies will never disappear, no matter how many attractive alternatives arise.

    I'll offer one example right now: paper.

    Discuss.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  5. It's pointed to in the summary and was not missed by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think the thing being missed here is that people are in a hurry. If I can fly a 747 from Seattle to Japan and the flight takes 14 hours, I would pay more to be able to do it in 7

    It's pointed to in the summary and was not missed - there were not enough people in a hurry to sustain Concorde flights.
    An ironic thing is the 747 was opposed within Boeing in the late 1960s because it was thought that only supersonic airliners would have a place on long hauls in the 1970s - so very few were built in the first batch. As mentioned in the summary the 747 went on to render Concorde mostly irrelevant.

  6. That target already captured elsewhere by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article (well worth reading this time) argues that such a target market has left the building and is already on "bizjets" to avoid the time consuming fuss of getting onto an airliner and having to stick to a schedule. It also points out that suborbital spaceports are not going to be in the middle of cities so the time to get to and from them also has to be considered. Those factors seem to reduce the small market you suggest to zero. Expensive, fixed timetables and little or no time saved compared with "bizjets" in the same or lower price range that leave when you want and land closer to where you want to be.

    Sucks, but all that extra effort to go supersonic/hypersonic prices it out of most civilian situations.

  7. While suborbital flight may be too expensive.... by MtViewGuy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ....We may see a return of supersonic flight within the next 15 years.

    Thanks to better understanding of how sonic booms are generated from the shape of the plane and definitely way better jet engine technology, we may be able to very soon build a business jet seating 10 passengers capable of flying at Mach 1.6 at ranges up to 6,000 nautical miles with just about no sonic boom audible on the ground even when the plane is fly at Mach 1.6.

    How is this possible? First, aerodynamic research using computational fluid dynamics have identified ways to minimize the pressure wave buildup that causes the sonic boom in the first place with very careful shaping of the fuselage and wings. This makes to possible to effectively eliminate the audible sonic at speeds up to Mach 1.6. Secondly, modern engine design using variable cycle engines (GE Aero Engines successfully tested the technology on a engine intended for the Advanced Technology Fighter program that resulted in the F-22A Raptor) means high-bypass turbofan fuel efficiency at subsonic speeds but can change configuration to fly at supersonic speeds with a small amount of reheat (afterburning) to keep fuel consumption and harmful exhaust missions as low as possible. Finally, by keeping the top speed to Mach 1.6, it means less structural heating from flying at supersonic speeds and less need to run a lot of reheat (afterburning) on the engines, which means lower fuel consumption and less need for expensive high-temperature rated stainless steel or titanium structural parts like those used on the Concorde.

    I've read companies that sell fractional ownership of private jets such as FlexJet or NetJets would immediately buy 50 of these supersonic business jets once approved for production. The ability to fly from New York City to London in around 4 hours as opposed to the circa 7.5 hours with current jet airliners makes it very attractive to business customers, especially since many live by the motto of "time is money."