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The 'Radio Network of Things' Can Cut Electric Bills (Video)
We all love 'The Internet of Things.' Now imagine appliances, such as your refrigerator and hot water heater, getting radio messages from the power grid telling them when they should turn on and off to get the best electricity prices. Now kick that up to the electric company level, and give them a radio network that tells them which electric provider to get electricity from at what time to get the best (wholesale) price. This is what e-Radio is doing. They make this claim: "Using pre-existing and near ubiquitous radio signals can save billions of dollars, reduce environmental impact, add remote addressability and reap additional significant societal benefits."
Timothy noticed these people at CES. They were one of the least flashy and least "consumer-y" exhibitors. But saving electricity by using it efficiently, while not glamorous, is at least as important as a $6000 Android phone. Note that the guy e-Radio had at CES speaking to Timothy was Scott Cuthbertson, their Chief Financial Officer. It's a technology-driven company, from Founder and CEO Jackson Wang on down, but in the end, saving money is what they sell. (Alternate Video Link)
Timothy noticed these people at CES. They were one of the least flashy and least "consumer-y" exhibitors. But saving electricity by using it efficiently, while not glamorous, is at least as important as a $6000 Android phone. Note that the guy e-Radio had at CES speaking to Timothy was Scott Cuthbertson, their Chief Financial Officer. It's a technology-driven company, from Founder and CEO Jackson Wang on down, but in the end, saving money is what they sell. (Alternate Video Link)
I recall an article a month or so ago about a town that had already done this, using high-bandwidth internet to determine energy use across the town. Unfortunately I can't remember the town or the company....
Ask me about repetitive DNA
I don't want my furnace to turn itself off at 2 am while I'm sleeping and it's 20 below outside. If everyone is using electricity at the same time, it's for a reason.
The government has shut off my frig because I do not agree with the president!
No, we don't.
My appliances all work just fine without being connected to the interwebs. Seriously this is a stupid idea.
This actually makes sense; no big brother, one way transmission of pricing information. However, this does assume that you have a smart meter and an electricity provider who has dynamic pricing.
My refrigerator needs to maintain a consistent temperature to prevent spoilage. Turning it off to save electricity is a daft idea. Same goes for my furnace -- where I live, it can hit -35C in the winter and frozen pipes are a real risk if the furnace is shut off for a few hours in the middle of the night. Automatically dimming the living room lights and turning off computers and TVs wouldn't really work, either. ;)
Now imagine appliances, such as your refrigerator and hot water heater, getting radio messages from the power grid telling them when they should turn on and off to get the best electricity prices.
No, I think I'd rather maintain control over my own appliances and climate control. Even people in crappy motels get to choose when their own heating and cooling runs in their room.
My utility charges me the same rate day or night. The time of day that my equipment turns on has no bearing on my final bill.
First of all, the government has acted irresponsibly with the powers it already has. Giving them the ability to remotely control our appliances is a terrible idea. We have to fix the problem with the unaccountable government and lack of societal trust before we start even thinking about these sorts of pie-in-the-sky, cooperative efforts which require a VERY high amount of accountability by those in control.
Second of all, even if the government can be trusted, the companies that will build these things will not take security seriously. I won't say maybe; I won't say possibly. Definitely. These things will definitely not be secure. Most companies still think they can just take a half-hearted crack at security, let marketing make it sound impermeable to the masses and act surprised when it comes out that the security was crap in the first place. It's pretty much the industry model at this point.
Finally, and most importantly, it's not even clear that smart meters will have the intended effect, that people adjust usage. As another commenter pointed out, when everyone is using electricity at the same time, there is usually a reason for that.
My fear is that these devices will be forced upon the public (they already are forcing the "smart" meters on us), and when the evidence is gathered that consumers don't adjust usage voluntarily, it will be done by force. And, the government does absolutely nothing to make me think this won't happen. Why should we, the public, accept this?
The Summary says "Now kick that up to the electric company level, and give them a radio network that tells them which electric provider to get electricity from at what time to get the best (wholesale) price"
That's crazy. There are already organizations called Independent Systemm Operators (ISO) that run real time auctions to do thst function. They have been operating since the 1990s. No radios are needed. They have had high reliability communications methods for many decades.
But to be honest, 90% of the time, a simple mechanical clock works better than the crap they suggest.
Yes, you can save a small percentage by setting certain equipment, including your heater and refrigerator to switch to low power mode when power is expensive. Basically this expands the range by a couple of degrees. But the amount of money saved is not worth the HUGE invasion of privacy.
Especially not when simply improving your insulation will save your more money.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
But saving electricity by using it efficiently, while not glamorous, is at least as important as a $6000 Android phone.
Especially if you're trying to pay off a $6000 Android phone.
Most people are commenting about Demand Response - appliances delaying to lowering usage at peak prices. That is not what this is about.
This is about having multiple power companies, and switching between them based on price. Interesting idea, but that assumes that a person even has the option of a second power utility. The vast, vast majority of places in the US have a single, monopoly power utility.State government controls such things, and they are not easily changed.
Now kick that up to the electric company level, and give them a radio network that tells them which electric provider to get electricity from at what time to get the best (wholesale) price.
Why would the electric company need a radio network to communicate with household appliances? They already have a hardwired connection!
1) There are respectable predictions that those who ignore peak-based savings will have bills 3x higher than necessary. We only recently got rid of peak-time phone charges 3x off-peak, so hardly impossible. And wholesale prices can certainly vary by more than 3:1.
2) There is no invasion of privacy necessary at all. Listening to mains frequency is a decent clue as to when to widen a temperature deadband for example.
3) Why wouldn't you do insulation AND other measures? I have taken several and have energy bills (even ignoring my solar PV) a fraction of what they used to be while adding two kids to my household. Insulation is part of the picture but not the whole story. I haven't even finished yet.
Why be so reactionary about something unobtrusive that probably implies a better engineered system that will work better all round?
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/
Too bad Radio Shack is filing for bankruptcy. This could have been their killer app.
No, We do not all love it. I hate the concept of internet of things...
Been down this road. Used to live in MN, the power company there came up with this idea of the "Savor Switch" they'd discount your electric bill if they could shut off your AC for short periods.
It gets F'ing hot on prairie sometimes, if you let the inside temp rise the AC could never catch up because on hot days it would rarely cycle off (yes probably should have had a higher tonnage unit). Long story short the switch came off! It sucked, when the power company could it always shut the thing down when you needed it the most and it got miserably hot, even in the 15min before they cycled it back on.
I am all for the smart grid as long as *I* the consumer have veto power. If I *want* to use higher cost peak time power and can easily enable a "don't turn me off flag" that's cool, but I want the decision to be mine to make with my wallet.
Also why don't they encourage folks to install battery banks and inline inverters? Seems like the efficiency of these have gotten pretty good. Tank up the batteries off peak, time or whenever the grid signals surplus power is available and use the stored juice to run the high amperage appliances heat pump/washer/stove/dryer etc if those things need to be used during peak.
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A fundamental problem with this is that there is no "Off-Peak" cheap power in a lot of places. We just have one utility rate, which is higher than anywhere else in the country based on what I hear from other people. Many people don't have an off-peak rate so this becomes just one more costly gadgeting of the appliances that makes them more expensive and use just a little bit more power to run, multiplied by millions.
As I'm pointing out in the (real) situation that I am describing there is NO network connection nor data flow to or from the appliance. There's a multi-million mount market out there already working on that basis. Possibly multi-billion.
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/
...and now my beer is warm :(
Maybe the location sensor thought you were in the UK?
Refrigerator: You actually have a range of acceptable temperatures. Generally speaking 15 minutes is only going to make a degree or so difference in a quality unit.
Furnace: Again, your furnace should actually be off more than it's on, even at -35C, and 15 minutes to an hour shouldn't make much difference.
You don't mention your water heater, which I don't know if it's electric or gas, powered by your furnace or not. But many are electric, and it's not something that needs to be kept at the exact same temperature at all times.
As for pipes freezing and food spoiling - You have a range. Assuming your pipes are insulated like they should be so that they don't freeze immediately, (what if your furnace fails? Can you keep your pipes from freezing long enough to get a repair guy out there?), you actually have a range between comfort and 'pipes freezing'. It's simple enough: 2 stage thermostats. Many people with heat pump systems already have them, in order to control between using the heat pump and the 'emergency' direct resistive heat strips.
Same concept - When power is cheap, your fridge runs to put itself on the cold side of the acceptable temperature range, your house on the warm side(in the winter), cool side(summer), so on and so forth. It's also easy enough with smart appliances for them to keep track of your demands and regular trends in power cost in order to best optimize drawing power when it's cheapest. It's just as easy at that point to set a 'critical' level where, expensive power or not, it'll use it if it needs to in order to prevent pipes freezing and food spoiling.
My grandparents were on such a system for years. The agreement with the power company was that interruptions could only be for so long and in exchange they got a break on their bill.
If your house can't last through the typical spike, it probably needs more insulation or repairs.
I don't read AC A human right
Now we can get new patents for all those things "on the Internet" by using "over a radio"!
The utilities are used to a certain amount of revenue. If we start cutting into that revenue stream, they'll up the rates to keep the revenue constant.
Who's the loser?
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I want my fridge to remain at the temperature to which I set it, I want to be warm when I am active (or cooled in the summer), and I want my water to be hot when I need it, not when you think it's good for you.
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where the fuck do these idiot boosters get their moronic examples of how wonderful IoT would be? nobody would want their fridge to turn off if the electricity price went up.
my fridge needs to keep things cold even if the price of electricity goes up for a few hours.....ruining hundreds of dollars worth of food to save 10 cents on electricty is not a good idea. food poisoning's no fun, either.
What he said......
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
The electric company will use the radio control to maximise it's profits.
Go well
The only downside of this Damon, is that radio by wire can be hacked with a signal sent to make appliances use max or min power. I understand that appliances themselves will operate within their own range but I am not 100% positive that a reciever can be made to completely shut down or placed in standby as a spoofed power blackout. So there must be safeguards to avoid this, either by the manufacturer or by an add-on device.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
How about a radio signal that tells me when there is something good on /.?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Yes. if they told me that t oconnect the fridge you build a new network, i would have declared them mad.
OTOH: I worked in a related topic and we figured that the biggest part of the potential savings could be implemented by a timed switch, and a little thought. It's not like the the time of the peak consumption in a country changes day by day, usually you should think about decades.
(The 80-20 rule also applied here: do the simple measures first, and get the biggest part of the saving)
First of all, devices in the private house don't suppose to be turned off and on at random. My refrigerator needs to be run 24/7, my heater needs to be run at day, my lamps need to be on by night, my computer, TV, radio, etc. needs to be on when I need it. There is no point in turning them on and off base on the price of the power. It would make sense if I could store the energy at a cheaper point in time and use it later.
Second, if everybody have that then the price will just average out and nobody will get to save any money. Or, worse, it will lead to price spikes because millions of people will turn on their electrical devices at the same time to catch the lowest power price.
The idea that a smart grid leads to lower prices is just phantasy. If you want lower prices then build nuclear power plants, invenst in new technologies, invenst in building new power plants.
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You can only adjust the frequency of the whole grid by adding or removing gigawatts of load (or generation)! Or have the same effect by cutting into someone's mains supply and mucking around with it directly, in which case they might as well blow up all the target's stuff outright!
So the point is is possible to do some stuff with *NO* additional comms or security hazards, and some with some highly secure comms and very constrained changes in behaviour with those comms across the Internet or not. All are useful.
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/
Goodness, that's rather offhand and completely wrong at lots of levels.
Clearly there a peaks at national and supra-national level. Have a look at some of these for just one example:
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/b...
Flattening demand would reduce costs of infrastructure that otherwise has to cope with unrestrained peaks; we already do this so it is only a matter of degree and where exactly we do it. Further, allowing demand to follow non-dispatchable load will also help make better use of renewables as well as cope with failure of conventional plant more gracefully.
Also, different parts of the grid will have different problems, eg while the grid may be fine overall at a given moment one substation may be having a torrid time with its much smaller consumer sample, eg that may have a bunch of locals arriving off the same bus or train putting the water for a cuppa, or have a cable fault in one phase, or whatever.
Further, sensible secure schemes will devolve as much as possible of the detailed timing to the appliance so that they cannot all be commanded to 'come on' or 'go off' at once but apply a randomisation algorithm much as Ethernet does for example.
Just because you may have decided up front that there are no good solutions doesn't mean there aren't any. Some of the people that have them know a lot more about stats than you and I both, so can we at least accept that there are entire chunks of maths and computing that have interesting secure distributed randomised algorithms that deal with exactly these sorts of issues all the time?
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/