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European Countries Seek Sweeping New Powers To Curb Terrorism
New submitter cooler-than-ice (3981829) writes with this story from the Washington Post: Belgian leaders on Friday sought sweeping new powers to monitor and punish their citizens for involvement with terrorism, joining France in an effort to rewrite laws just hours after dozens of arrests across Europe offered dramatic evidence of the threats security officials say are facing the continent.
From the article: Apart from expanding powers to strip citizenship for dual nationals, Belgian leaders on Friday proposed devoting an additional $348 million to counterterrorism efforts. They also said they wanted the ability to take away identity documents to make it more difficult for people to travel to Syria and elsewhere. ... “As a result of the events in Paris, combined with what happened yesterday in Belgium, the political unanimity is quite great,” said Rik Coolsaet, a terrorism expert at Ghent University. “It is a bit of 9/11 syndrome.”
France is also charging forward with attempts to expand government powers to monitor threats — and to punish those who praise or do not readily condemn terrorism. Leaders this week called for new legislation to significantly bolster domestic intelligence agencies.
The stripping of citizenship for dual nationals will be popular as all heck, and its popularity has nothing to do with the current round of terrorism. Look how long it tooks to remove the citizenship of former Nazis hiding under new identities.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I was hoping your be the ones to bail us out when the U.S. went full fascist. Alright, New Zealand, all eyes are on you. No pressure!
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
We have exited the steaming waters of the Acheron and now the maelstrom of the Lethe pulls on our prow.
Perhaps we in the west should start with curbing muslim immigration.
Are you then suggesting that the muslim equivalent of anti-Semitism is an acceptable practice? Limiting immigration because of a person's religion and not because of their character?
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
'Cause the Patriot Act worked out so well for us.
Never mind worrying about the terrorists winning, it's the fascists who are doing the winning
"Yes, you called the terrorists evil, damn, evil S.O.B.S. But you paused before you said evil. Take him away BOYS."
It's bad enough to punish those that use their freedom of speech to praise criminals, but to go that far pushes you beyond the bar of reason and into tyranny.
If we used this in America, I think Obama could arrest the entire cast of Fox News for praising Putin. That is just plain wrong. Fox news should be laughed at, not arrested.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
France is also charging forward with attempts to expand government powers to monitor threats -- and to punish those who praise or do not readily condemn terrorism.
WTF? R'ing TFA... not a whole lot, but here's a bit more from the article:
France is also charging forward with attempts to expand government powers to monitor threats -- and to punish those who praise or do not readily condemn terrorism. Leaders this week called for new legislation to significantly bolster domestic intelligence agencies.
Another law, a fast-track judicial process for accusations related to terrorism, was on the books as of November but had not been widely used before the Paris attacks. In recent days, however, prosecutors have filled the dockets with more than 100 cases that are speeding through courtrooms. People who have expressed support for the attacks have been sentenced to as much as 15 months in prison.
A top French opposition politician, Eric Ciotti, said this week that the government should withhold social benefits from the parents of children who failed to observe moments of silence in schools.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
that the issue is pretty much totally muslims - when governments start to accept this we might have a chance
that escalated quickly.
You know, the Nazis sought sweeping powerrs to curb terrorism after a building was set on fire. How did that slippery slope work out in the 40s'? Are the 2010's the new 1940s?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
... about responding to violent threats.
It's irrational not to respond to violent threats.
It's the rogues, the Islamists that they need to go after
Why are they snooping around the non-Islamists?
Why?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Jews don't kill people because they think different. It's not anti-semitism, we don't have anything against Middle Eastern non-muslim people. It's really simple and I can't understand why you don't have the scope to realize it: there can not be a place in Europe for an ideology that goes against anything Europe stands for. You must be a simpleton, sorry for you.
Wouldn't it make much more sense to devote some effort and expense to promoting the values of the enlightenment? In particular, devoting some educational effort towards eradication of irrational beliefs. Why not actually treat Islam (and Scientology, and Christianity) as the mental equivalent of a public heath hazard, where those who believe need to be helped to overcome it?
I think we make a serious mistake in our public discourse, by considering that:
violent minority = extremists = misinterpretation of scripture vs. peaceful majority = mainstream = correct interpretation of scripture.
whereas it would be more intellectually honest to consider:
violent minority = literalists = correct interpretation of scripture vs. peaceful majority = reformists = those who wilfully mis-interpret their scripture.
In other words, while almost all humans (of all faith and of none) are decent, good, tolerant peaceful people, they are decent to the extent that they discard their holy books, not to the extent that they follow them. The holy books themselves are beyond redemption, and should be considered to be "on the side of the devil".
Consider the spectrum of belief: (a)Secular humanist ---- (b) "Moderate" religion ----- (c) Extremist religion.
Position (b) involves belief in gods, prophets, and veneration of "perfect" scriptures. Position (c) is a very small step beyond, namely to actually read those scriptures, already considered perfect, and interpret them the literally, as they are written. So, if we want to prevent Islamic terrorism, the most effective argument is not detailed discussion of which Koranic verse overrides which other one (an argument which the moderates can never win), but instead, to argue for the wholesale abandonment of holy books.
Education, science, secular values, and human rights are the most potent weapon we have against faith, and yet politicians refuse to deploy them! If we took the money from the security services, and put it into schools, I think it would be far more effective.
Rome's biggest enemy was itself, the upper classes saw only their own gain, disdained the masses, and ignored the changing world around them
While them Islamic savages are destroying the social fabric of the European countries what the Europeans leaders want to do?
To open Europe up for even more of them Islamic savages!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The Islamist terrorist groups perform attacks in order to limit free speech, and in response, these counties help the terrorists along by limiting speech even further?
Who's side are these guys on anyway?
France belongs to the French
Germany belongs to the Germans
Sweden belongs to the Swedes
Italy belongs to the Italians
In other words, they are the indigenous for their ancestors, for thousands of years, have settled in that place
And immigrants ? No matter if they are 2nd / 3rd / 4th or whatever generation, once they have decided to harm the indigenous they should be kicked out, immediately !
America belongs to...
Australia belongs to...
Ah, never mind.
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Multiculturalism only works when everyone agrees to the same rules of the road.
The big trouble here, is that a disturbingly large number of Muslims hold opinions that are complete anathema to open and free Western societies. They are only too happy to benefit from the freedoms afforded them; yet, as we've seen in the last week, they despise with every fibre of their being, other people exercising their _own_ rights in a free society.
This hypocrisy is going to tear Western societies apart unless something is done soon. The solutions, as I see them: 1) we let Muslims impose their culture on us; or 2) we impose our own culture while we are still a strong majority -- and then force the minority to pick sides.
Something has to give.
European Countries Using Terrorism to Seek Sweeping New Powers
Because terrorism is a red herring, and this looks like a shiny new power they can grab without much hassle from the rabble. Fear is a great vehicle for stripping away liberties. Freedom is *far* more at risk from our own governments than it ever was from terrorists.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
uhh did you know that the West has, and in particularly the US, has imposed itself on uhh basically all the middle east???
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America is a civil state.
The European countries are ethnic states, have been for thousands of years, and their borders are almost literally written in blood.
While Europe is exceedingly liberal and politically correct in general, it would be 'unwise' indeed, to mistake generosity and kindness for weakness.
Japan and China has the right idea WRT their citizenship law. Germany is also quite strict in comparison to the rest of Europe.
I expect that after the next couple of major terrorist attacks here, the situation will rectify itself...
Thank you for joining us. We welcome your embrace of the new world order.
Sincerely,
The United States
P.S. Chancellor Merkel, we were amused with your joke about Klinsmann you shared with your husband yesterday. See you in Russia in 2018. And no, changing your cell number doesn't help.
Chalk up another victory for the terrorists.
Good show everybody! You are all in the process of confirming all that was put forth by the psychologists and scientists in the early 1900s, especially Pavlov. You are all very good subjects.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Not even in the remotest incestuous Swiss Alp valley have people been sedentary "for thousands of years". There isn't a single place in Europe that was not completely shaped by migrations over the centuries. You must be an immigrant if you don't know that ;)
It isn't always easy to identify Islamists.
America belongs to...
. . . the rich.
Australia belongs to...
. . . the largest concentration of deadly, poisonous critters and creepy-crawlies on the planet.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Really? That's news to me.
Show me these vast transplanted colonies of white people all over the Middle East. Oh that's right -- you CAN'T. Because there are none.
Well, there _was_ Algeria, but then the Algerians told the whites living there, 'leave with your bags, or inside one'. And rightly so. They were colonists. Just like the millions of Muslim colonists living in most of the major cities of Western Europe.
The Middle East used to be full of Jews and Christians. No longer. They were all persecuted, raped, robbed, driven out. 95% of the Middle East and North Africa is now Muslim.
Hypocrite much?
As Admiral Ackbar discovered, it's a trap!
The word "terrorism!" can be mis-used, much like the word "treason!", if it is not formally defined in Law. So, if such a definition has not been codified, the politicians have no business requesting powers to do such things as "punish those who praise or do not readily condemn terrorism" --after all, the person you want to punish might be using a different definition than YOU used (the one YOU used was specifically intended to help you steal political power, see?).
uhh did you know that the West has, and in particularly the US, has imposed itself on uhh basically all the middle east???
A very popular opinion indeed. While I am sure it help you to get sex with that hot hippy chick does you have any fact to back it up? Did the middle east forgot their muslim way? Did they stop praying to the magic rock held in Mecca?
This is why the US is the greatest nation. It took 3000 horific deaths to get us to buckle under and sell out on civil rights. Europe? 17. Bunch of wimps.
America is a civil state.
The Americas were, for the most part, colonised by European immigrants that kicked the shit out of the people that already lived there. I really don't see how that's different than what happening now (or is about to happen) in Europe in the mind of many scared/aggressive people. And for the record: I don't hold current day Americans responsible for that, it's not like they got to choose what their forefathers did or did not do, although of historically/societally you do have some kind of responsibility (just like e.g. Belgium has one vis-a-vis its ex-colonies).
The European countries are ethnic states, have been for thousands of years, and their borders are almost literally written in blood.
Ethnic states? Our borders are indeed written in blood (then again, so are many in the Americas), but I doubt there are many "ethnic Belgians" in existence. Or have ever existed, other than one tribe in a distant past that was termed as "the bravest of all Gallic tribes" by Julius Caesar.
While Europe is exceedingly liberal and politically correct in general, it would be 'unwise' indeed, to mistake generosity and kindness for weakness.
The way many people are reacting, it seems they did find a quite weak spot though.
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Australia belongs to...
. . . the largest concentration of deadly, poisonous critters and creepy-crawlies on the planet.
:)
Donate free food here
I thought it belonged to people living there. Anyway, I hope you are trolling, because otherwise you just sound like a Nazi.
No matter if they are 2nd / 3rd / 4th or whatever generation,
You do realize, that is one of the principal reasons why they are getting radicalized? It's the discrimination in those countries in the first place that is causing all the problems they are seeing. If almost 50% of the youth is unemployed because they have an "immigrant last name", then really, that is fucked up.
We are all just so FARKED!
You should take a look at America's outposts in the Middle East and in other places in the world. America doesn't want vast colonies, they want to extract resources for American benefit.
With a touch of military bases. Most of the grunt work is local labor though, run by the America-backed strongmen.
Most Italians do not descend from the ancient Italic tribes.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Is it really a large number? Here in Scandinavia as far as I can tell there are indeed Muslim extremists, but a quite small number. I work with a number of Muslims in a regular office job, and they are more or less normal people. More religious than the average Scandinavian, but then so are Americans.
And in terms of actual crimes committed, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of terrorism going on here. There have actually been many more people killed by anti-Muslim nativists (like Anders Breivik) than by Muslim terrorists. Meaning that the people trying to "save" us from the Muslims are killing more of us than the Muslims are. In which case I would like to request that they stop trying to "save" us...
The biggest problems are more run-of-the-mill socioeconomic problems. A large number of young people in poor suburbs of Copenhagen and Aarhus end up committing petty crimes or joining street gangs. These are disproportionately immigrants, although it applies to Danes in those areas as well (who join biker gangs, which for some reason in Denmark are very white, and heavily involved in smuggling).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Mods, please! That was funny, not insightful... If it was serious, it would be troll/flamebait.
Seeing all the support for the typical right wing reaction illustrates very clearly the bit of fascism in everybody. There are no national boundaries there. This feeling is global, natural, animal. Humanity becomes a little less humane.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
When you're angry, the media is spreading fear, and citizens are demanding action from their government, its all to easy to swing wildly too far in giving up freedom and privacy. We've had more than a decade of that in the US and it isn't pretty.
We get mad when we hear about the Snowden revelations. We get mad when the government doesn't monitor "known" threats. We get mad when our government doesn't treat captured terrorist killers kindly. You cannot have it both ways.
The best answer is for each citizen to keep their eyes open and report suspicious people to authorities who are properly funded and equipped to handle these things in a responsible way. Come on, can't a gun shop owner selling two assault rifles and 800 rounds of ammo figure out that something other than deer hunting is planned? Why can't communities be prepared to help mentally ill people who have not yet committed felonies?
Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
Greed is the root of all evil.
Don't restrict the idea of an 'imposer' to only colonization by a homogenous large group in the country that is imposed upon. For example, puppet governments, financial and diplomatic support of dictatorships, mercenaries, wars by proxy, military incursions, wars without ground troupes, all the ways to bias elections, secret service's actions, economic or geopolitical interests, etc.
troll huh?
- support for israel at the expense of palestenians
- support for dictators of the middle east
- US military outposts scattered over the middle east
- popularity of western culture in the middle east
- not too long ago the whole middle east was colonized!
these are just the major points
my point is the projection of influence and power is basically one way from the West (US) -> middle east. the suggestion that muslims are the ones changing the West is ludicrous compared to this.
--- widget evolution: enhanced, plus, super, ultra, extreme, exxxtreme, ultra-extreme,
Terrorism will always win so long as the alternative is freedom.
It is the fear-spreading tool by which those who would remove our freedom and strike down all dissent enact draconian, tyrannical measures.
All one needs to do is allow attacks which would not harm their own possessions, friends or family to occur, and use them to garrote Liberty while everyone is still in shock. After all, the measures and needed bills have already been prepared ahead of time.
Trade is a positive-sum game, freely entered into by consenting parties.
This is all just bullshit Muslim grievance-mongering, as always.
It's not our problem how they spend their oil money.
What's the alternative? Sell it to the Chinese? Muslims are weird, in that they tolerate abuse from Chinese/Russian dictators that they were never tolerate from the West. I think it boils down to some really deep resentment of white people, because the West are better imperialists than they are (Muslims are also violent, venal imperialists -- they're just really shit at it.)
Or they could just leave their Allah-bestowed black gold in the ground, and starve. That works too.
If we fixed everything else that was wrong in the world, I'm sure that they could consider it an affront that somewhere, a non-Muslim person was breathing the same air as them.
i don't care about popular. i care about truth.
--- widget evolution: enhanced, plus, super, ultra, extreme, exxxtreme, ultra-extreme,
One correction - Gandhi wanted to live together with Muslims, and even after partition, he forced India to not expel the remaining Muslims into the Pakistans. During Hindu-Muslim riots, he'd rush in to prevent Hindus from killing Muzzies, while doing nothing to prevent the latter from killing the former. On top of that, he forced the new Indian government to pay Pakistan Rs 5.5 million to cover the cost of resettling their refugees, despite the fact that India had the same issue which Pakistan was not compensating. Gandhi was a cunt who during his days in South Africa used the term 'Kuffar' to describe South African Blacks - the same term that South African Muzzies used for the same group. On top of that, in 1918, he supported the Ottoman Caliphate, and today would probably be cheering ISIS from the sidelines. Thank $DEITY that India is no longer run by his Congress party, and there are some in the ruling BJP who consider Godse - Gandhi's assassin - a true patriot.
Actually, we tend to be invited into middle eastern countries by the same rulers whom we make fabulously wealthy by buying their oil at ridiculously high prices, negating any benefit to us. Saudi Arabia and Qatar would be good examples. We didn't invade the Saudis: we're there because we're basically their mercenaries, while the Saudi royals have grown exceedingly rich off the oil market. Had we instead invaded Saudi Arabia, burned their mosques, destroyed their culture and their spirit, executed their royals, imposed our values on them, and colonized like Europe used to do back in the day, we wouldn't have been paying a hundred dollars a barrel the last few years (finally down to reasonable levels), nor would we have been fighting their internecine Sunni-Shiite conflicts for them. We could have had much more profit and much less trouble by actually being imperialist oppressors; that's just not a role to which we're well suited, because we are reactive instead of proactive and generally disinclined to undertake foreign adventures due to a strong isolationist streak that counterbalances the hawkish elements, along with strong factionalism that keeps us from accomplishing much of anything. Jesus, look at the size of the American military compared to the rest of the world's forces, and try explaining how anyone with imperial designs wouldn't have already used it to expand their borders across the globe.
The big trouble here, is that a disturbingly large number of Muslims hold opinions that are complete anathema to open and free Western societies.
Then again, this is matched by the disturbingly large number of non-Muslims who make unfounded generalised comments about Muslims!
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
I agree that the US should eliminate its dependence on Islamic oil, so that the source of funding for jihadi campaigns, gulf sheikhdoms pampering their sheikhs and Islamic regimes acquiring nuclear weapons or all sorts of other weaponry dries up. After all, until the 60s, when oil was discovered, the Muzzies weren't buying up all sorts of property in the West, and aside from the wars on Israel, they weren't anywhere near a threat to the rest of the world as the Soviets were. And despite now 50 years of US $4 trillion being transferred to them, they have not managed to build modern economies based on something else. Look at South Korea, which never had such a transfer of money from the West the way these countries had. Yet today, South Korea is one of the most powerful world economies out there - w/o oil. And yet, the Islamic countries haven't managed to use those trillions of petrodollars to transform their economies into ones dependent on other sources.
As a result, the day we have something (say solar powered cars) that enables everybody to stop buying oil, they'll be back to the poverty levels of Bangladesh. And their cunt-ries won't be 'strategic' any more
They tolerate the russians and the chinese because they aren't soft with them like the west.
The west is all: it's just a couple of extremists.
Russia is all: You kill 1 hostage, I kill 10.
Praise terrorism, praise. What else could I praise today? Maybe cat videos?
Disclaimer (for benefit of the knee-jerk-reactionaries): I passionately hate Al Qaeda, the so-called 'Islamic State', and all pseudo-religious nutcases who, for some reason, think 'God' (whoever the fuck that is) wants them to cut off people's heads 'for offending the Prophet', throw acid in little girls' faces/kill little girls because they have the audacity to want to go to school/learn to read/learn history/learn to do math/learn in general, and all the rest of the bullshit these fucking assholes are out there doing/condoning/supporting. I think they all desperately need to be brought to justice for their innumerable crimes, no question about it.
..now, that all having been said:
If you don't, for more than a second or two, think that these 'sweeping powers' they want to grab (and make no mistake, it's a power-grab) are going to end up being grossly and indiscriminately mis-used to further political agendas that have nothing to do with anti-terrorism, then you are incredibly, unbelievably naive, because that's exactly, precisely what's going to happen. Euros, you need to clamp down on this shit right now, because once they get this kind of power, they will not let go of it, ever, and they will ironically enough use it to destroy whatever freedom of speech you have in your country. Mark my words.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Which is impossible for any human being to prove. Or do you have records of all or even most - or even a single one - of your ancestral lines going back to the height of the Roman Empire?
Furthermore, nations are not genetic but memetic. Being French means nothing more and nothing less than that you think of yourself as French. People born in France typically do, as do some of the people who've lived there for a while. That is true even if said people don't agree with every aspect of their nation's culture. You're simply trying to use thinly disguised racism to disqualify the opinions of people you don't agree with.
TL;DR Ein volk, ein reich, ein this bullshit again.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
WTF? You're responding about "Muslims" (kind of a diverse group) in an article that has among other things the French government clamping down on free speech rights. A guy was arrested in France for making a damn Facebook post is support of the attacks. This isn't new. Many European countries have double standards with regards to popular, and unpopular speech.
Uhh.. so I 'd say it's not just "Muslims" (quite a broad generalization), that don't hold opinions completely anathema to open and free Western societies. The French government has actually ACTED to suppress spech they don't like.
Israelis as well?
Always in perfect sync.
What? No.
Learn some history.
Half of Europe never even existed a thousand years ago as it is now.
If too lazy, just watch a speedrun of European geographic history class.
In other words, they are the indigenous for their ancestors, for thousands of years, have settled in that place
Italy has only existed as a country for about 160 years. Before that it was a collection of feudal states. I'm less clear about France and Germany, but they certainly were part of the Roman empire before they became the modern countries you now see.
The point being, the idea of country is FAR more dynamic than you're implying. Borders change, culture changes, language shifts. We're all immigrants really. The human race came from Africa. "Indigenous" is a social construction, not something inherent in a populace.
Here's a brief history of Israel, in funny cartoon form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY
The douche-baggery and killing kind of extends for a long time.
Apart from the beards or veils. Although I'm not sure how much overlap there is between those two categories.
This. So much this.
If these muslim retards decided to fuck with Russia or China, the whole Middle East would be dusted with bombs.
Sadly they know this, which is why they are trying to get away from them.
Europe has mostly become pacifist as a result of a rise of existentialism, which itself arised from a rejection of extremes (such as communism and fascism) that were highly destructive during WWII (only about 70 years ago, Fascism was considered an example of European governance as a LOT of countries practiced it at the time; not just the Axis powers.)
Though before that, France has somewhat of a history of violently killing people who they believe don't even think the same way as themselves. Take the reign of terror for example.
Cool! I must be rich!
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
Is it really a large number?
Islam is opposed to the separation of church and state. So you would have to say that every good Muslim is to some degree opposed to western civilization. I don't think I'm alone in understanding that theocracy is evil and must be avoided, that's the founding principle of the country I live in after all.
The biggest problems are more run-of-the-mill socioeconomic problems.
Yes, but those exacerbate problems caused by theocracies (or would-be theocracies — in this case, it varies by region) which depend on ignorance. That's why the Catholics want to interpret the bible for their followers, and want them to come and check in any time they think they understand it on their own, and it's why fundamentalist Islam fears little girls with books. Mind you, they're not alone. We have Christian fundamentalists in this country who feel precisely the same way. Keep them ignorant and pregnant, and in the kitchen. And you can buy wooden furniture and smokeless fireplaces from some of them.
I'm not worried that Obama is going to adopt Sharia or anything, but if you don't think that the Islamic push for theocracy is going to continue to be a sticking point, then I don't think you're thinking. This is an inherent contradiction between Islam and western society, and it cannot be reconciled without either giving up on religious freedom, or throwing away the Quran. They're not allowed to edit it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Australia belongs to...
. . . the largest concentration of deadly, poisonous critters and creepy-crawlies on the planet.
And then there's all the marsupials, snakes, and spiders ..... ba dum tish
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
Oh grow up, hippie. Having defined states and countries with citizenship regulation is facist? No national boundaries?? You could've fooled the rest of us that live in the modern civilized world.
We should ban all religious people from entering the country.
If that worked religion would have disappeared a some tiems ago with the itnernet. But it does not, because you cannot use rationality to convince people (rare exception may happen) that belief they came to in irrational way are wrong. Try thisd : go into a creationist forum and try to argue that radiometric dating works and explain why. Good luck with that. So if we are not even able to get ride of creationism in the west , a domain (natural selection) where there is a lot of supportive and solid science, what chance do you think you have with other irrational belief ? I will tell you what, as soon as the GOP accept as a whole global warming I will give you a smmmmaaal bit of chance.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Umm, you could make an argument that those are the same for both nations
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It was in the 70's, today the whole world is a dream for Nazis...
There's nowhere to hide anymore - the world's too crowded and politicians are corrupt everywhere.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
This is an inherent contradiction between Islam and western society, and it cannot be reconciled without either giving up on religious freedom, or throwing away the Quran. They're not allowed to edit it.
And yet there large numbers of moderate muslims that do not feel at all obliged or even inclined to impose the sharia on the rest of the Western country they live in. Maybe they're not real muslims in the eyes of fundamentalists, but why should we take the same view as fundamentalists in this regard while we reject them on all other points?
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And yet there large numbers of moderate muslims that do not feel at all obliged or even inclined to impose the sharia on the rest of the Western country they live in.
Are you sure? Maybe they don't feel a need to do it by force, but that's not really the whole story, is it? That's far morally superior to those who do, but it's still going to be an unending source of conflict.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
And yet there large numbers of moderate muslims that do not feel at all obliged or even inclined to impose the sharia on the rest of the Western country they live in.
Are you sure?
About as sure as you can be from watching documentaries, listening to interviews, reading opinion pieces, talking to people etc.
Maybe they don't feel a need to do it by force, but that's not really the whole story, is it? That's far morally superior to those who do, but it's still going to be an unending source of conflict.
If you are convinced that part of the population has the destruction of a lot of what you hold dear as their secret agenda , then I don't see a possibility besides endless conflict either.
Donate free food here
why use different labels for the same thing?
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Islam is opposed to the separation of church and state.
Eh, and so is Christianity generally. So much so that we do not even have separation of church and state in Denmark: the Church of Denmark is the official state church, which is written into the Constitution. There is freedom of conscience and worship, but one religion (Lutheran Protestant Christianity) is officially established, while the others are (according to the Constitution) merely tolerated, allowed to worship as they wish "provided that nothing at variance with good morals or public order shall be taught or done" (section 67).
Of course, in practice the church has lost almost all of its power in a gradual reform process spanning the past few decades. But I don't see this as some bit fundamental disagreement between Christianity and Islam, more a practical issue of which parts of each religion are dominant and what kinds of political power they have. In the current era, the temporal power of Christian theocrats is waning, so they are no longer much of a practical threat. But not because Christianity is doctrinally particularly great. Christian conservatives simply lost the political battle; if some things had turned out differently, they might have won, or at least come to more of a stalemate. But they didn't.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
If you are convinced that part of the population has the destruction of a lot of what you hold dear as their secret agenda
How it is a secret agenda? It seems pretty out in the open to me.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Freedom is *far* more at risk from our own governments than it ever was from terrorists.
Really? How many newspapers feel free to publish cartoons featuring Mohammed as a character? Is it the government that causes that fear? There has been a recent terrorist attack over this resulting in a dozen deaths, with more threatened. And that isn't the only problem from this vector.
Oxford University Press bans use of pig, sausage or pork-related words to avoid offending Muslims
Salafist Muslim Group Forms 'Sharia Police' Patrol in Germany
Anti-gay, anti-alcohol: London's "Sharia patrol"
Swedish Police Release Extensive Report Detailing Control Of 55 ‘No-Go Zones’ By Muslim Criminal Gangs
Like most problems I'm sure this one will get better by simply ignoring it, or even better, pretending that measures to solve it are the cause of it.
Because terrorism is a red herring, and this looks like a shiny new power they can grab without much hassle from the rabble. Fear is a great vehicle for stripping away liberties.
Fear is a great vehicle? You mean like fear of government, the same governments that provide universal health care in Europe that everyone claims is the very height of civilization? So you can't trust government when it comes to stopping people with a demonstrated and announced desire to poison, shoot, or blow you up, but you can trust them to pump your body full of chemicals, with the power of life or death over you, to decide if you get food or water when you are too sick or weak to take care of yourself? Given the persistent confusion on these points this will probably not end well.
And your .sig? Pay attention to the bold: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Those that pay no heed to their security are unlikely to remain free.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
If you are convinced that part of the population has the destruction of a lot of what you hold dear as their secret agenda
How it is a secret agenda? It seems pretty out in the open to me.
Well, I thought that in case of the moderate muslims it could be a secret agenda in your view. In any case, feel free to ignore the "secret" in that sentence.
Donate free food here
Honestly, you know what, fuck the Muslims and their pig eating moohumid and jihad. And you know what else??? Fuck the Christians, and the Jews. Fuck ALL religion. It's nothing but a scourge upon the earth. WARS, disease, the state, hypocrisy, killing in the name of some bullshit God of Abraham when your supposed God's first rule is thou shall not kill. NO.... fuck all you all. Religion and belief is what needs wiped from the face of the earth.
At least with the terrorists the damage is minimal. The politicians actions will negatively impact us all.
Terrorism is just like Santa Claus, the tooth farie, and the easter bunny. It doesn't exist - right?
So you can't trust government when it comes to stopping people with a demonstrated and announced desire to poison, shoot, or blow you up...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
moving forward anyway!
They just don't make 'em like they used to. 9/11 required serious planning!
The U.S. has long supported the Palestinians as well, albeit far less publicly.
Russia supports dictators in the Middle East as well.
NATO and U.N. military outposts are in the Middle East as well.
Define "Western culture", cause by my definition "Islamic culture" is pretty prevalent in Europe as well.
Colonized? By who? The Ottoman Empire? The Ottoman Empire was never considered to be a "Western" power.
The state will itself sponsor terrorism.
You can disagree but when they kick your door in at
04:00 you will see you were wrong.
You sound pretty much like the spokemen of Jihadi organizations like Hamas, Hizbullah, aQ, ISIS, CAIR and several others across the world. 'Islamophobia' indeed! A phobia is an irrational fear of something. Like it would be a phobia to be afraid of butterflies, but not scorpions. It would be a phobia to be afraid of racoons, but not snakes. Similarly, it would be a phobia to be afraid of Buddhism, but not Islam. Given that Islam - in its various texts - calls for the subjugation of all non-Muslims by any means necessary - violent or non-violent - it is perfectly rational to not want it anywhere near one's environs.
Leaders of Europe are anything but 'Islamophobic'. For the last 50 years, they've had the welcome mat for Muzzies all the way from Morocco to Pakistan, and now you have situations like 'No-go zones' in Paris, Malmo, Bradford and several cities across Europe. The only parties that have opposed Muslim immigration have been fringe parties, like the Danish People's Party in Denmark, PVV in the Netherlands, Mouvement pour la France in France, the BNP in the UK and a handful of others in other countries. The top 2 parties in every European country are indistinguishable as far as their policies on Muslim immigration goes. So you can breathe easy - those leaders don't want to oppress anybody, but rather, give people the perception that they're doing something about Jihad. In reality, they don't want to lose votes of the Muslims, nor do they want to lose votes of those opposed to Muslim intimidation. It's that simple!
Bzzzt. Australia belongs to the people with the biggest balls in the world....and the drunk. Who else would willingly live in the land of the "largest concentration of deadly, poisonous critters and creepy-crawlies on the planet." :P
Well lets see there's only the platypus, the corroboree frog and the birdwing butterfly for poisonous critters, so I'd be much more worried about the venomious critters down-under.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Kicked out to where exactly? It could be said that your abusive system turned them into criminals so why should other countries be forced to receive them. You created them, your problem, especially 2nd generation on. Once you accept them, they are yours and they become within your society is what you turned them into to, they are you.
Let's just focus upon how you let them in in the first place and learn to accept the consequences of that. Why not just include psychological testing as part of the immigrant or refugee process but once you accept them, they are yours and just as much you as you are. I can understand countries barring those diagnosed as psychopaths and narcissists and that includes tourists, it just makes sense.
Keep in mind you can not just kick them out, unless you mean by that execute them. You must actually send them somewhere and they must be willing to accept them. What do you do when the intended recipient country just says no, you got them, your problem, deal with it.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Are you then suggesting that the muslim equivalent of anti-Semitism is an acceptable practice? Limiting immigration because of a person's religion and not because of their character?
It absolutely IS!!! Jews never had, and don't have, aspirations of subjugating the world. Yeah, they consider themselves God's chosen people, but that does not harm Gentiles in any way. Jews lived peacefully in Europe and other places and never caused trouble, or tried subverting any country. It was another thing that their prosperity caused envy by those around them, which is why Judeophobia was common to everyone - Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant,...
Muslims, OTOH, have always been about occupying other people's countries and taking over, and I'm not talking about the Jihadi conquests of the 7th century. I'm talking about the way they become a majority in a country by a combination of mass breeding and immigration, and then Islamize the country. A fine example being Malaysia, which was once 40% Muzzie, but is today 60%. And today's Malaysia has all sorts of disguised discriminatory laws against non-Muslims. People hated it when South Africa did it, but are fine with Muzzies doing it.
In Israel, Gentiles have the same rights as Jews. So if ever, hypothetically, a country like France were to become majority Jewish, legally, nothing would change. If Muslims, OTOH, took over, France would be very similar to Turkey, or Malaysia or any other Muslim country: it would no longer remain France. Which is why Islam SHOULD be a disqualifying factor when it comes to immigration in non-Muslim countries
Why?
Part of collect it all. Bring it out for use in open courts. Everything collected is now more legal. No more parallel construction needed.
All that new data can then be shared with other EU, UK and US beyond the "The Ring of Five" Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Denmark.
The part most nations dont seem to have fully understood is what the GCHQ understood decades ago. Never mention the collection part and people keep on trusting their phones and computer networks.
Now that nations admit they have full mastery of all their internal phones and computer networks interesting people can just revert to more traditional methods of communications.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Being a French means that if you are white then you are most likely of Roman descendants since 13% franchised middle class and 85% vilains and serfs of France in 1789 where Romans. Now there is the possibility if you are a white French to be of Germanic descendants but those had Odin as god/ancestor and believed he came with his kin from Troy when it fell, and if Odin came from Troy he was worshiping Apollo. Hyperboreans where also worshiping Apollo and Artemis. Also the Dorians came from the North and they were worshiping Apollo. Pelasgians, Trojans, Aborigines from Arcadia and Sabines from Lacedaemonia that funded Rome were also worshiping Apollo (except I believe Sabines, those for sure were worshiping Mars above all). But if you are not a white French then most likely your ancestors where not the Romans or close related tribes like Germanic and probably Slavs.
Europe became pacifists and saved a lot of money at the same time because they knew the US had their back if they ever faced any serious threats. Without US military support Russia would have already reclaimed all the client states they lost when the USSR disintegrated and the Europeans could do nothing to stop Russia even if they wanted to..
Dude, they have Mecca, and the big sandbox around Mecca
Why are you worrying so much on whether or not they accept or not accept to be deported?
They never worry about how the European hosts feel when they threaten the Europeans with violences?
Send them all back to the big sandbox where they belong, stop letting them creating troubles in Europe !
Yeah, that's because you attacked Hitler, he would have destroyed Stalingrad and Moscow, making SU a pacifist, peaceful communist state if you hadn't attacked him in the back. And we wouldn't have to worry now, when Putin decides to mow down Ukraine and rest of Eastern-europe...
You are a denier. Muslims will demographically shift the balance of power in Scandinavia and you can stuck your politically correct opinion where it belongs. Islamism teaches its followers that they must expand, convert etc. Even if some Muslims got to Scandinavia to benefit from the economy or the liberties, even their sons may just turn against their host nation if the local imam is carismatic enough..
Blah-blah-blah. Why is it that e.g. the Poilsh can integrate more nicely into the UK society? Maybe because they try, and there are more shared values? Religions teach people things and values that may or may not be compatible with Western values. There is an undeniable pattern between Islam and disrespect for Western values, e.g. secularity (separation of church and state), religious freedom, women's rights, child (girl) education, types of punishments, I could go on and on.Once the demographic processes tip the balance in favor of a Muslim majority, see if it's indeed a 'run-of-the-mill socioeconomic problem' or just the end of the place as you know it, with Sharia law for your grandchildren.
I don't know what they do in the UK, but Eastern Europeans do not integrate well here. They are pretty notorious for being heavily involved in criminality.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That is a pretty damning statistic, I admit. But it would be weird for Western Europeans to limit migration from Eastern Europe, because Western Europe in general, made the mistake of accepting millions of culturally very different immigrants en masse who's values are radically different, and migration from Eastern Europe is the only route to improve demographic balance. So if I were a Western European far right wing politician (which I'm not, not even a sympathizer) then I'd _definitely_ insist on strengthening the immigration flow from Eastern Europe to revitalise the local mainstream population (as the aging Danish society itself can't over-procreate the migrants of multicultural origin).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...
Casteism
A series of fear-based statements without anything to back them up.
This isn't about our culture vs. their culture. This is about stupid assholes destroying our culture from within, and making it more like their supposed culture, out of sheer ignorance and fear.
It's idiotic, you're idiotic, what the fuck is wrong with you assholes, do you all have fucking amnesia or something ?
Some of the racist, fascist, ignorant rants herein reflect poorly on the otherwise outstanding citizens who read slashdot but who don't bother to comment for example the people who,are pushed out of,Australia are desperate and poor who risked their lives in the naive belief they might find a new place but clearly this is not acceptable but to lump them with terrorists.like the scum that is setting fire to the world like ISIS and Al Qaeda is just stupid, and ignorant and definitely racist nazified language. Think poor, illiterate scared of their own native lands and wanting a better life...not so different from where many of your ancestors were like when they came by steerage from Eastern Europe..just a different colour. For shame! Educate yourselves about the catastrophe of displaced and desperate people world wide that are just trying to survive and save their children. Look at the terror that aiSIS, that cancer of Cancers that sell women and children like sex toys to their filthy warriors and then understand why thousands run to tent cities to eke out lives. You people sit on your custom computer desks writing this shit have no clue. Get a life and learn that the world is not Silicon Valley. Millions need help in solving both the separate problem of innocent refugees and the consequential rise of terrorism throughout the world. We are at war with Islamic terrorists all right but the millions we see begging on the shores of democracies are also their victims. We need to learn how to distinguish one from the other, I,suggest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...
Casteism
the same governments that provide universal health care
No. It may strike you as odd, but governments change over time. I have serious suspicions that universal health care was founded based on the kind of fear we're seeing dictate our laws these days. It seems that every law that comes out these days in every country amounts to "give police and/or governments as much power as we can squeeze in on the vague chance that it will be useful, and to hell with any sense of privacy."
And honestly, a lot of those laws would make great sense -- under one condition: That they're not going to be abused. Unfortunately that condition is 100% impossible to fulfill. And in fact its worse than that -- any law with the potential to be abused has a near-100% chance of being abused, and often sooner rather than later. And to really seal the deal, there's usually little to no oversight applied (not that oversight would completely stop abuse -- its still near-100% chance.. just hopefully a lot fewer individual incidents over the same time period.)
essential liberty
I consider presumption of innocence to be a fairly essential liberty in our world, and most of these privacy-invading measures tend to require presumption of guilt (particularly the dragnet-style warrantless data collection measures.)
Of course you can argue when exactly the presumption of guilt takes effect -- most of us consider the moment our data is gathered without our knowledge to be the moment that guilt is presumed.. but you could claim that presumption of guilt is only applied at the moment the data is reviewed, otherwise its just unknown bits that could be anything. That gets back to the potential for abuse though -- if its available, it WILL be abused.
America belongs to...
It did belong to us Native Amreicans but you came along with the barrel of a gun killed our children and took our land.
and now.... Their coming after you! Remember if you are white and live in the US YOU!!! are a fucking immigrant!
Huh? Your response is a shocking example of idiocy in action.
Are the Slavs really more culturally similar than the Arabs, though? They feel at best "equally foreign" to me. Slavs are the eastern fringe of Europe, and Arabs are the southern fringe. They both intertwine with European history while remaining not quite entirely within it. And in the modern era, they are both more religious than the average Scandinavian, which manifests itself in fairly similar ways (the Slavs and Arabs both seem to hate gays). I'm not sure I would really prefer to have Slav neighbor than an Arab neighbor, all things considered. If anything the Slav seems more likely to try to sell my kidney to someone.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The European countries are ethnic states, have been for thousands of years
You might want to brush up on your history. Up until 200 years ago or so, there wasn't even such a nationality as "French" or "Spanish". There were Bretons, Catalans etc. And most European states up until then were united not by shared ethnicity, and in many cases not even by shared culture or religion, but by allegiance to the same monarch. It wasn't until the advent of what we now call Romantic nationalism at the end of the 18th century, that ethnicity really began to matter in national politics in a big way.
In fact, the current relatively uniform ethnic composition of European states didn't crystallize until a lot of borders were redrawn after WW1 (e.g. treaty of Trianon), and massive population transfers in the aftermath of WW2. So the current state of affairs is literally 70 years old.
Of course, the notion that just because your ancestor ten generations removed has lived in a political entity with roughly similar borders and/or name two centuries ago, you get some special entitlement in the current political entity in its place, is absurd on its face anyway.
Australia belongs to...
. . . the largest concentration of deadly, poisonous critters and creepy-crawlies on the planet.
Hey, I know Bruce and Barry may not be the most well adjusted individuals, but fair suck of the sav mate, they aren't that bad.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Cool! I must be rich!
America does not belong to you, slave!
None of this would be necessary if all you stubborn Kafir would just submit to Alla's sublime message.
Then we would all be Muslims and would be no need for a war or terror.
I admit... thats when the purging starts. We would need to purge the less true believers . Once done Im happy peace and harmony would be restored. Oh.. and purge those that didnt look convincing in the celebrations of the first purge. Then all thats left is to purge those that did the 1st purge as they are clearly secret agents of the devil.And then purge those that celebrated as thats unIslamic too. No singing and dancing on our watch thankyou.
Sitting on a prayer mat and banging your head into the floor 5 times a day is all we can hope for ;)
I am Italic, yet not Italian!
This isn't automatically a bad idea.
The key is that any new powers hew to the principles of oversight, due process, and probable cause. Europe has generally done a pretty good job on these matters so let's hope they don't get stampeded into a surveillance society.
Very interesting view. It is true that there are parts of Western Europe that are closer to Arabic states than Slav or EE countries. Of course the converse is true too. What's interesting is that Western European countries colonized some Arabic countries (and others like India), imposing their laws and language onto them. It might be for this reason that you consider Arabic people as close, or closer than EE people. But think about it for a moment.
The Arabic countries could be colonized due to vast differences in industrial power, therefore military power. So in this sense the bigger fundamental distance enabled Western countries to just possess African land, resulting in a shorter _perceived_ distance as law and language were imposed on them.
You may also be more accustomed to see Arabs in Western cities than EE folks due to this issue of colony vs iron curtain.
But these are short term phenomena. Slavs and other EE folks have been Christian for a thousand years or much more. Many such countries, like Bohemia, Poland, Hungary, Croatia have also formed unions with Germany, Austria or among themselves. The fact that these countries were not colonized or re-languaged is testament that there was enough cultural and economic power to be in more equal terms with WE countries than Arabic land.
Then we didn't talk about things that appear superficial but aren't in reality, such as skin color and much more importantly, religion. An independent Western woman can move to e.g. Poland and live a normal life. If she moved to Nort Africa, even if she avoided the many constantly revolting countries with bloody wars, IS presence, horrible dictators, Sharia law and human rights issues, she'd have a culturally very different life to say the least.
Also don't forget that Jews, an important part of Western culture, predominantly lived in Eastern Europe and this cohabitation was important.
Some countries, e.g. Spain and Hungary, have fought wars over hundreds of years against Moors and Turks, protecting the rest of Europe, acting as a defense line.
There are huge individual differences among individuals, but the proximity of cultures, and the capability and will to integrate is much stronger among European folks than between Europe and Africa. I'd say IMO but we also talk about thousand year ling shared histories and ideals (religion, renaissance, industrialisation, science, arts etc.).