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Winston Churchill's Scientists

HughPickens.com writes Nicola Davis writes at The Guardian that a new exhibition at London's Science Museum tiitled Churchill's Scientists aims to explore how a climate that mingled necessity with ambition spurred British scientists to forge ahead in fields as diverse as drug-discovery and operational research, paving the way for a further flurry of postwar progress in disciplines from neurology to radio astronomy. Churchill "was very unusual in that he was a politician from a grand Victorian family who was also interested in new technology and science," says Andrew Nahum. "That was quite remarkable at the time." An avid reader of Charles Darwin and HG Wells, Churchill also wrote science-inspired articles himself and fostered an environment where the brightest scientists could build ground-breaking machines, such as the Bernard Lovell telescope, and make world-changing discoveries, in molecular genetics, radio astronomy, nuclear power, nerve and brain function and robotics. "During the war the question was never, 'How much will it cost?' It was, 'Can we do it and how soon can we have it?' This left a heritage of extreme ambition and a lot of talented people who were keen to see what it could provide." (More, below.) According to Cambridge Historian Richard Toye, Churchill was a "closet science-fiction fan" who borrowed the lines for one of his most famous speeches from H. G. Wells — to depict the rise of Hitler's Germany. "It's a bit like Tony Blair borrowing phrases from Star Trek or Doctor Who," says Toye. A close friend of Wells, Churchill said that The Time Machine was "one of the books I would like to take with me to Purgatory". Wells and Churchill met in 1902 and several times thereafter, and kept in touch in person and by letter until Wells' death in 1946. "We need to remember that there was a time when Churchill was a radical liberal who believed these things," Toye adds. "Wells is often seen as a socialist, but he also saw himself as a liberal, and he saw Churchill as someone whose views were moving in the right direction."

77 comments

  1. Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Pro-science politicians, let alone those who value the scientific method on par with weekly polls, are seemingly still in short supply....

    unless you're talking about advances in military superiority.

    There's an interesting argument to be made for man's warrior nature being the impetus for much of his science and engineering development.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This reminds me of that stupid capitalist argument that a baker does not bake for the love of his customers but because he needs money to survive.

      On the contrary, the best bakers love baking and need money to survive. It's just that capitalism (or Stalinism, or Nazism, since we're looking at mid-C20) pushes out those who are good at making bread in favour of those good at making money or war. There is no reason not to build a society based on people doing things they love, in which shirkers are ejected rather than allowed to accumulate capital and live off that.

    2. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by NicBenjamin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with science spending in the current environment is that a) a lot of it has become politicized ( certain strain of budget-cutting Republican is very skeptical of anything that pro-AGW-scientist do), and b) we've been in fire government employees mode since Bush got termed out. Look at it this way: The IRS's is one of the last government departments that a rational person would cut because IRS Agents earn their keep by nailing tax cheats. Even if each agent is only finding $0.50 on the dollar, you have to cut $2 in IRS spending to equal a $1 cut anywhere else. And we're cutting the IRS. Congress is not in a invest-in-the-future mode, it is in a cut-government-spending-so-private-companies-can-magically-appear-and-invest-in-the-future-their-own-damn-selves mode.

      A scientist, who is probably so naive that they honestly think the founders sole objective in creating the Federal government was to protect freedom*, asking for money that could a) result in nothing more interesting then proving his line of research is a dead end, or b) revolutionize some obscure field Congressmen cannot spell properly, does not stand a fucking chance.

      *If your sole objective is freedom-protection you don't create a Federal government. The Founders were actually trying to do something very, very complex: create a government that restricted freedom enough it could effectively a) resist future British attempts to retake the colonies and b) destroy those goddamn Indians in Ohio once and for all, without c) granting it sufficient anti-freedom powers that it could seriously oppress the people.

      Note that their definition of freedom was wonky. If there'd been any chance the Federal government could end slavery, most of them would have considered that "serious oppression," so they specifically designed there Feds so that could only happen under the most dire of circumstances.

    3. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well then, what do you do with people who aren't good at what they love doing, or whose labor is not in demand ?

      What you are falling into is the classic mistake of the labor theory of value. It was wrong in Marx's day and it is still wrong today.

    4. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well then, what do you do with people who aren't good at what they love doing, or whose labor is not in demand?

      Management

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Funny

      LOL I would have gone with consulting

    6. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The IRS's is one of the last government departments that a rational person would cut because IRS Agents earn their keep by nailing tax cheats.

      Or you'd simplify the tax code, which would make it easier to spot them, and which would lead to less mistakes which means less fraud and less errors. Then you wouldn't need so many tax collectors.

      If your sole objective is freedom-protection you don't create a Federal government.

      Wait, what? If your goal is to give states freedom to oppress people, that's true. Otherwise, false.

      Founders were actually trying to do something very, very complex: create a government that restricted freedom enough

      The founders were trying to maintain a status quo in which they and their ilk would control society. They suceeded. They were wealthy, racially privileged land owners, just like in Athens. And guess what? Wealthy, racially privileged land owners still run the country, so mission accomplished.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re: Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      Or you'd simplify the tax code, which would make it easier to spot them, and which would lead to less mistakes which means less fraud and less errors.

      Fewer mistakes do not lead to fewer fraud cases. Fraudsters know they are cheating. They're not making 'mistakes.'

      I'm not indisposed to simplifying the tax code, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that this would somehow 'simplify' the ever-inventive schemes of tax fraudsters.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    8. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prove that people in the former group exist in significant numbers for reasons other than lack of education - i.e. making them good at what they love doing.

      Prove that people in the latter group exist in significant numbers for reasons other than lack of education - i.e. modernising their skills.

      You're just extending the list of unfounded assumptions of modern philosophical capitalism. The theory was right in Smith's and Marx's day, and continues being right today - it just doesn't fit in with the current religious twist.

    9. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      War has long been shown to be the periods in history with the fastest technological development. Goveernment borrows to ensure its own survival in ways it doesn't need to in peace.

      However, the current era had economists wondering, with per-capita spending on par with WWII, yet in relative peace, why aren't we in a similar period? Or, if a real war started, where is the money to borrow to come from?

      Those periods are not sustainable becaise they are borrowing-based. The capitalism you disdain is unparalleled at generating the economic oomph to have them from time to time, and continue development at a pace almost as fast, sustained.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    10. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      The IRS's is one of the last government departments that a rational person would cut because IRS Agents earn their keep by nailing tax cheats.

      Or you'd simplify the tax code, which would make it easier to spot them, and which would lead to less mistakes which means less fraud and less errors. Then you wouldn't need so many tax collectors.

      That's virtually impossible to do under our system. It's incredibly complex, with a whole panoply of veto points, and it's specifically designed so that the same individual can never have control of all of those veto points.

      Which means if you're taking a tax break away from somebody who uses it, they have a dozen or so places to stop you.

      OTOH, why is the Canadian prime Minister Prime Minister? Because he has the Confidence of Parliament. What does that mean we he tells the Chair of some damn finance subcommittee to pass a bill? It means the Chair of the subcommittee has three options: resigning from the subcommittee, new elections, and passing the damn bill.

      If your sole objective is freedom-protection you don't create a Federal government.

      Wait, what? If your goal is to give states freedom to oppress people, that's true. Otherwise, false.

      Don't be silly.

      If your sole objective is freedom protection you're an anarchist, and instead of creating a new level of potential oppressors you abolish all levels of potential oppressors.

      Even if you weren't full anarchist, the states of the 1790s were a lot easier to dodge then the Feds because you could always move. Moreover state-level elections back then tended to be annual, so they tended to be much closer to the Electorate then the Feds.

      Founders were actually trying to do something very, very complex: create a government that restricted freedom enough

      The founders were trying to maintain a status quo in which they and their ilk would control society. They suceeded. They were wealthy, racially privileged land owners, just like in Athens. And guess what? Wealthy, racially privileged land owners still run the country, so mission accomplished.

      Don't be ridiculous.

      Buffet, Soros, and the Koch brothers don't own land. They own stock. What we have today's completely different, and much more Democratic, then a landed aristocracy; because it just is.

    11. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by readin · · Score: 1

      Churchill is a huge hero for both Republicans and conservatives.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    12. Re: Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should have a look at David Graeber's articleOn the phenomenon of bullshit jobs, a more serious version of Douglas Adams' B Ark.

    13. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Prove that people in the former group exist in significant numbers for reasons other than lack of education - i.e. making them good at what they love doing.

      Prove ? Sure I'll get right on that research. But while we are waiting for that, why don't you explain how there is a magical alignment between what people want to do and what needs to be done ? Let alone the number of people who love to do something and are actually any good at it.

      Oh and if you want evidence about the disconnect between enjoying something and being any good at it, look at fan fiction on the net.

    14. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      ...you are falling into ...the classic mistake of the labor theory of value. It was wrong in Marx's day and it is still wrong today.

      It was RIGHT in Adam Smith's day, it was Right when Marx

      Adam Smith's theory of price Marx's labor theory of value. The rest of your post seems to be unrelated and unsupported material about your hatred of capitalism.

    15. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      WTH is with slashdot, that should read Adam Smith's theory of price (not equal symbol) Marx's theory of value.

    16. Re: Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess GP could be talking about mistakes by IRS, which allow fraud to carry on. A simplified tax code would make it easier for officials to spot anomalies from further away.

      But I agree with you that there will always be loopholes, like code always has bugs or limitations. It's inherent in a system that tries to a) be fair (ie largely non-crazy), b) promote desirable behaviour over many years in a changng world, c) be stable.

    17. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      at least vernes scifi had speculative fiction parts in it.

      unlike fantasy crap like dr who where 'science' is exchangeable with 'magic' and used almost solely for making the lazy plots to work(goes mostly for star trek as well but at least that one has some future society ponderings in it making it somewhat relevant).

      maybe that's why science is so underrated now then? because people are equating pulling anything goes in any which order plot shit out and calling scientific? like, you could just as well say that a show about mermaids is science! the day a politician starts quoting dr who to further science is when that country is totally fucked!(maybe beyond the point of being fixable thus the politician fantasizing about time travel to fix the plot hole in his budget)

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    18. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If your sole objective is freedom protection you're an anarchist, and instead of creating a new level of potential oppressors you abolish all levels of potential oppressors.

      That's a cute idea, but it's hopelessly naive. You can never eliminate all potential oppressors until you're the only one left alive. You've got to sleep sometime, and any one of us can maim or kill any other one of us because humans are fragile. If that's the future you want, you're going to find yourself in very little company one way or another.

      Freedom can't exist without vigilance, and again, you've got to sleep sometime. That's why you can't have a free market without laws which protect it and fair enforcement of those laws, and by the same token, it's why you can't live free unless someone protects that life. Can I say it again? You've got to sleep sometime. People who call for anarchism are daft and deluded. Power vacuums are real, and the natural consequence of anarchism is that someone highly motivated forms a social order to take advantage of the lack of order which would prevent it.

      Buffet, Soros, and the Koch brothers don't own land.

      You are completely wrong. The Koch bros. in particular are massive landowners.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re: Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I guess GP could be talking about mistakes by IRS, which allow fraud to carry on.

      Since the code is complicated, people can make all kinds of outlandish claims, how many of them are you going to test? That gets expensive.

      But I agree with you that there will always be loopholes, like code always has bugs or limitations.

      Perfect is the enemy of good, but that's no reason not to go for good.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that their definition of freedom was wonky. If there'd been any chance the Federal government could end slavery, most of them would have considered that "serious oppression," so they specifically designed there Feds so that could only happen under the most dire of circumstances.

      By "there Feds" presumably you mean "their federal government"?

      In any event, this simply isn't true. Many prominent people knew perfectly well that slavery would have to end, and even many of those who had grown up with it were eventually convinced of this.

      Ben Franklin -- President of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery League -- once said the Revolution was necessary because England would never end slavery on its own (due to the huge profits being made in the Caribbean sugar plantations, the primary driver of the Triangle Trade). Gouverneur Morris of NY made a strong anti-slavery speech at the Constitutional Convention, and proposed buying the freedom of all the slaves. Jefferson, Madison, and Washington all eventually were convinced that slavery needed to end. But the political consensus wasn't there, so in recognition of this, the federal government was prohibited from barring the importation of slaves for a period of time, but thereafter was allowed to do so. Further, nothing was said about the Federal government being prohibited from freeing slaves after they were imported!

      If you like, blame the lawyers for the fact that this compromise was necessary. Just as in Old England, the lawyers looked out for the interests of the people that would be paying for their future services, which meant that that lawyers representing the slave states had a vested interest in perpetuating slavery (the slave owners being the people with the money to pay for legal services). It was immoral, it was unethical practice of law, and the lawyers just didn't care -- just like today!

    21. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Actually, Capitalism is only unparalleled in extracting worth from labor. One has only to look at the working conditions of the Chinese 'volunteer labor' in those factories/barracks where hundreds of thousands live at the beck and call of Capital to realize the individual had far more personal gain as a farmer under communism than he or she has in a guard tower ringed, machine gun toting gestapo riddled 'workplace' under Capitalism.
      Ultimately, the effects of Capitalism are mass deaths, the extinction of species, and the displacement of workers into destitution.

    22. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Capitalism is destroying arable land, drinkable water, breathable air, freedom and individuality for a spy-slave-prison state of wealth for the few at the expense of all. harly 'hate' to note these demonstrated facts.

    23. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      LOL That's why the world is so much worse off today than it was 100 years or 1000 years ago ?

      Oops it's not worse off.

    24. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's a good question which capitalism has utterly failed to answer. Generally, for the first part, we push them into something they hate and so they do as little as possible (often for crappy pay) and in the latter, we pay them just enough to keep them from starving in the street but not enough to get an education in something that is in demand.

    25. Re: Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by sjames · · Score: 1

      The tax code is complex so the wealthiest can simultaneously pay less taxes than the value they derive and denigrate those who pay more taxes than they can afford and derive less value than they put in.

    26. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is worse off, as the slaughter of 1 million innocent Iraqis to "protect our allies such as Israel...and our control over a significant portion of the world's oil" demonstrates.
      When the leaders of the 'free world' can say that out loud (Dickhead Cheney in PNAC open letter to Bill Clinton, dated 1996) and then DO that mass murder and NO ONE brings them to justice, the world IS worse off.

    27. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Tell it to the Armenians slaughtered by the Turks, Ottomans 100 years.
      Tell it to the dead in Flanders.

      Oh but you had no idea what was going on in the world in 1915

    28. Re:Tony Blair quoting Churchill quoting Verne by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      What part of 1915 has anything to do with the Christian Crusade mass murder of innocent Iraqis?
      Hmm?
      That's the kind of argument failure called "non sequitur".
      Seriously, try to do better in your replies!

  2. Not that unusual? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I read that Churchills left arm was actually steam powered and included a wide array of weaponry. His support of scientists was not so much a matter of vision as a necessity for keeping his artifical heart in good operation. #rupertstruth

    1. Re:Not that unusual? by plopez · · Score: 4, Funny

      He had a miniature Babbage engine powered by an alcohol fueled Stirling engine installed in his abdomen to help him analyze economic data. The cover story was that he was a fat alcoholic.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    2. Re:Not that unusual? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he was a fat alcoholic who sold the Empire to the Americans.

  3. Can we do it? by queazocotal · · Score: 1

    Oh yes!

  4. But but but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought only space had spinoffs?

    1. Re:But but but by pepty · · Score: 1

      Nah, War has great spinoffs. If you're still around at the end of it, that is.

    2. Re:But but but by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Wartime medicine sure spurs medical breakthroughs. With a war long enough, you can cure anything... provided there's someone left to be cured.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:But but but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fewer war deaths now (per capita) than in any other time in recorded history.

      We must be doing something right.

    4. Re:But but but by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Anything that involves pouring loads of money into blue-sky R&D tends to have big pay-offs. The question is whether one is a better investment than the other.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  5. Most Secret War by hughbar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Although I'm old enough to have seen Churchill's funeral, I wasn't really aware of this. There's a good clue in his quote 'give them what they want' for Bletchley Park. Anyway, a good read about science and intelligence [apart from Collosus etc.] in WW2 is: http://www.hive.co.uk/book/mos...

    We're coming up to an election in UK and we don't seem to have anyone much that appreciates science amongst our politicians. It's a real problem since the actual world is now full of pure science and technology. Still, we have lawyers and people that understand ancient Greek, they are always -really- useful.

    --
    On y va, qui mal y pense!
    1. Re:Most Secret War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I am a scientist (radioastronomer) and I understand ancient Greek (studied it as an optional between 13 and 18, purely for fun since I always knew that I would go towards a STEM education and career).
      To be honest, it's quite rusty right now, but I can still read a few simple things (mostly vocabulary lost, grammar is horrendously complex, especially verb conjugation, so I could not write a single world, but reading is much simpler) and it would come back fairly rapidly if I dived into ancient greek texts (possible hobby for retirement; hey, even the first Harry Potter novel was translated into late classical Greek, Lucien's style, which is among the easiest to read).
      This said, I am into science (astrophysics) enginering and technology (astronomical instrumentation), Greek was only for fun because I had an interest in etimology, languages and other things. Same for computers, I have programmed in assembly about 20 different computer architectures, from PICs to 370 mainframes, plus over 10 high level languages, including Lisp, PL/1, APL, Fortran, C, C++ (only usable since C++2011 IMO).

    2. Re:Most Secret War by hughbar · · Score: 2

      Thanks, I probably shouldn't have picked on that, as a chemist who also did 12 years of Latin. It's the 'only the Greats' and 'only PPE' that's the worry. We should be broad. Funnily enough, when I entered IT, there were no degrees and a lot of the better programmers were classics scholars, Latin and Greek seemed to help them with COBOL and PL/1, go figure.

      --
      On y va, qui mal y pense!
    3. Re:Most Secret War by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Isn't it interesting, Churchill was a fan of H.G. Wells, Churchill was fighting against Nazism, the interesting bit is that H.G. Wells was a socialist fascist, he was arguing for a Nazi version of socialism rather than the Marxist version. Marxist version of socialism is international socialism and Nazi version is purely national version, where one socialist nation becomes the de facto ruler. Nazis realised that Marxism was impossible to implement and that the only way that socialism could work for one particular nation was if everybody else was ruled by them, basically turning to open slavery where the modern version of socialism is using a 'hidden' version of slavery, such that it is not other nations or races that are enslaved, it is classes - the wealthier you are, the more you are enslaved by those who are poorer than you.

      Just an interesting tidbit.

    4. Re:Most Secret War by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Although I'm old enough to have seen Churchill's funeral

      Doubleplus unyoung!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:Most Secret War by Teun · · Score: 2
      I too remember his funeral, the man was iconic.

      And working for a UK based company I see problems in the English culture that have caused the losers of WWII to now be the owner and manager of great British brands like Rolls Royce, Bentley and Mini auto mobiles.
      Others like Vauxhal and Ford are just manufacturing plants building largely German engineered cars. Mazda and Toyota took over other factories.

      The British (English!) problem is they are so cock-sure of their own products they can't believe you need to continually work on improvement, "hey we have the best engineers in the world, this X-years old design is the best, change can't be an improvement".

      Even now the Brits have some brilliant engineers but until they recognise the outside world has moved on they will never be successful outside their own country.

      Oh and let's not forget the considerable number of followers of that idiot drunk Nigel Farage that want to close up even more. We're seventy years after the end of WWII and the following disintegration of the Empire and they still don't see the value of openness for future progress. Churchill was a Liberal Conservative, the Liberals is the UK party with the least support and the Conservatives with their shining example Cameron don't understand the modern world...

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    6. Re:Most Secret War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > I had an interest in etimology

      Hmmmmm...

    7. Re:Most Secret War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, sorry for the typo, I'm working mostly in Spain now, where it's written with an "i". I was in France when I was studying greek.

    8. Re:Most Secret War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "hidden" version of slavery

      as opposed to your preferred, open version of slavery, i presume? you can spout off your favorite gospels about "hidden" slavery and other such bullshit but you are the one who openly endorses actual human trafficking. you are the one who brags about not paying employees any wage at all. you are the one who advocates for buying and selling humans on the open market as commodities.

      tell us, roman, what is your current market rate for a programmer? male, of course - you told us before that you see female property as being a liability.

    9. Re:Most Secret War by sjames · · Score: 1

      So you're saying it is better to enslave the many in poor conditions for the benefit of the few rather than enslaving the few under posh conditions for the benefit of the many?

  6. Re:Diversity by Livius · · Score: 1

    He had to work with what the education systems of the time gave him.

  7. Attention Americans by Tokolosh · · Score: 2

    The meaning of "liberal", or "radical liberal" is the opposite of what you think.

    --
    Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    1. Re:Attention Americans by mjwalshe · · Score: 2

      Indeed a classic pre ww1 Liberal is quite different to an "American" liberal - closer to the orangebook liberals who are a block in the current UK liberal party

  8. Don't forget stats & much has changed since th by Raisey-raison · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There was an article in the economist about how statisticians also served in WW II. They were indispensable to making sure that Britain did not starve. Before WW II the country imported most of its food. They enabled it stay in the war undefeated until the entry of the USA.

    Among the instances of their success was their analysis of the distribution of German bombs falling on London each day. They concluded that the Germans were trying to destroy the docks but missing. They conducted quality-control in the manufacture of aircraft components, and the calculation of the distribution of stresses on aircraft in flight. The aimed to load planes up to the point that the wings were about to drop off. The research meant the RAF dropped more bombs, and brought more pilots safely home, than it would have otherwise.

    They used sequential methods for the first time in trials of medical treatments. Analyzing the results of a trial bit by bit, rather than all at once when it was finished, meant it could be stopped straight away if it became clear that the new treatment was so good that everyone should be getting it, or indeed useless or even dangerous. This simple-sounding idea, now standard in medical trials, requires great statistical sophistication—and saved many lives.

    But after the war, so much of this was not integrated into the British educational system. I remember taking a GCSE in math and having to do a project. We had to figure our how to calculate the area under a curve. I asked almost every adult I ran into if they could help me and give me some ideas. No-one had a clue and this included college educated people. It was so sad that no-one recognized this as as the primary question behind integration and half of calculus. British people had forgotten all that Newton and Leibniz (albeit that he was not a Brit) had accomplished.

    No-one told us that 60 miles up the road DNA's structure had been discovered at Cambridge by Watson and Crick on 1953. No-one talked about Allan Turing and his Turing Machine. No-one would teach me anything about electronics in high school despite my begging and interest beyond a basic physics class. No-one talked about James Clerk Maxwell and his relations in thermodynamics. No-one had a clue about statistics. No one screamed off the rooftops the central dogma of biology - we merely had to memorize the names of bones and muscles in the human body. The phrase 'normal distribution' was not used. People in the USA at least have a vague sense of what 23 and me is. In the UK so many people I know have no idea. They see genetics as so foreign - oh the irony. The math and science teachers were mean and the books not very helpful. I learned all about British STEM history but only when in the USA.

    There was a time when inventors, manufacturing, science, technology and innovation was celebrated in Britain. Now the only time you hear about science is when people are discussing global warming. They spend their energy in opposition to building anything new. There are parts of London where 1/3 of the buildings are listed and cannot be torn down and rebuilt. People oppose new high speed rail projects. They oppose new home building despite the data showing the UK being short of 1 million homes. They axiomatically oppose genetically modified crops disregarding that at least some of them are helping to alleviate malnutrition. Where has your sense of innovation gone, United Kingdom? You argue now about whether to be in the EU, whether Scotland should leave, and whether more spying will solve your Islamic extremist problem.

    Why not aim to spend 1% of GDP on R&D and build institutions like the NIH and NSF? Why not have almost all school children complete the equivalent of pre-caclulus, Calc I and Calc II, and intro to statistics by age 16? Why not set aside land to allow high end manufacturing using 3D pri

  9. David nice but Vapid by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    In an interview recently Camerhun didn't even know what "magna carta" means.

    You'd think that was common knowledge even among people who hadn't gone to a posh school and done PPE at Oxford, but there you go.

    You'd think it'd come up in the second P somewhere, no?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  10. Operations Research vs. Operational Research by michaelmalak · · Score: 1

    TIL "Operations Research" is known as "Operational Research" in the U.K.

  11. Klaus Fuchs was one of Chruchill's Scientists... by Grog6 · · Score: 2

    He pretty much Gave the bomb to both the British and the Soviets.

    --
    Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
  12. "Grand Victorian family" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Churchill "was very unusual in that he was a politician from a grand Victorian family who was also interested in new technology and science," says Andrew Nahum. "That was quite remarkable at the time."

    Also unusual for a British politician was that Churchill's mother was from the USA.

  13. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that's preferable to the US where they got high on plutonium and penicillin then accidentally turned science into a jobs program.

  14. Re:Diversity by turbidostato · · Score: 1

    "Sadly diverse fields, but not much diversity in hiring. "

    And so, here comes the troll of the week.

  15. Re:Diversity by quenda · · Score: 1

    Obvious sarcasm is not a troll. But I'm sick of hearing about the subject too - Should have been modded off-topic :)

  16. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  17. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Why not have almost all school children complete the equivalent of pre-caclulus, Calc I and Calc II, and intro to statistics by age 16?

    Because calculus is a massively overrated part of mathematics. It is emphasised in the British education system because, when it was introduced, having accurate artillery tables was seen as important. It is emphasised in the US education system because, when it was introduced, being able to put a satellite into orbit with incredibly primitive computers (that might fail) was considered important.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  18. Re:Klaus Fuchs was one of Chruchill's Scientists.. by Grog6 · · Score: 1

    I'll stand by what I said; we did Not share everything with the British, without Fuchs, tit would have taken them much longer.

    Soviets too.

    --
    Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
  19. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by Raisey-raison · · Score: 1

    I am intrigued by what you say. What would you say are the useful areas of mathematics that average and above average high school students should know beyond pre-calc. Are there other math subjects that you would rather college students (in STEM and econ) learn other than calculus? I know many benefit from a course in a probability and another in statistics. What else would you suggest?

  20. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
    Logic (at least up to first-order logic), set theory (some is covered, but not its connection to logic), game theory (essential to so many things, not covered at school at all), and graph theory (the basis for pretty much anything involving computers) would be at the top of my list. Anything where proofs dominate, rather than rote application of rules (we have machines for that now!) would be nice to see. Probability is already well covered in the UK, not sure about the USA. Statistics would be helpful to pretty much anyone.

    Don't drop the calculus, but you can teach people to understand calculus in a couple of months. Having them spend a couple of years going from being a thousand times slower than a computer at solving differential equations to being 500 times slower isn't worth it. It's not like simple arithmetic, where getting a calculator out and typing the problem in can be a bottleneck.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  21. Quote by NewYork · · Score: 1

    You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

    1. Re:Quote by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

      What saves us, is that we try things rapidly enough that we get past the "everything else" before we run out of time and resources.
      "Test early and often."

  22. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  23. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The educational problems you speak of have a long history.

    British military historian Correlli Barnett wrote several critiques of Britain's educational and industrial system during the WW1-WW2 period, which you might find interesting. Start with "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as a Great Nation". The book is out of print now, but easy to find.

    Few people understand the industrial, scientific, and logistical issues that, as much as anything, determined the outcome of the war, and Barnett's works are a good introduction to some of the issues with respect to how Britain was affected.

    From an engineering perspective, the military systems of the day and the industrial processes required to build them were staggeringly complex. Most military historians have little feel for industry, and manufacturing (especially logistics), and how hard it can be to take an idea from science and do anything useful with it. As a result a lot of the material they present the public, and the conclusions they draw, are misleading or even inaccurate.

  24. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by hughbar · · Score: 1

    Thanks, great essay. I was lucky enough to do public school [that's a private fee-paying 'prep' school for those in the US, it has a very unhelpful name] and I got to write FORTRAN program in 1965. We ran it on a mainframe in a steel mill in a nearby town. That mill has, of course. closed now.

    Secondly I and a pretty-much-genius friend built OSTEC, Oundle School Transistorised Electronic Computer, something that was pretty much just a full adder and a bit of core-store [ferrite core, they still use it in space]. It had a backplane and [fairly standardised] printed circuits that I etched with ferric chloride. I also etched a number of shirts, to the disgust of my mother.

    I'm really happy that 'proper' computing seems to be coming back with Arduino, Pi and Scratch. At time of writing I've just come back from a local school where we're just starting a Code Club: https://www.codeclub.org.uk/ So I feel that things are picking up a little, people are, at least, aware that we've been neglecting science and technology for quite a while.

    The worry I have left is that education should be about human potential not just about 'jobs', commerce is lobbying hard, so expensive to train people, so they prefer school to output pre-trained/compliant workers with low expectations. Go figure.

    --
    On y va, qui mal y pense!
  25. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Among the instances of their success was their analysis of the distribution of German bombs falling on London each day. They concluded that the Germans were trying to destroy the docks but missing.

    Somehow they failed to figure out that the British bombers were ALSO missing.

    All the theoretical statistics in the world couldn't change that: they needed somebody on the ground (or inside the enemy forces), or far better photo-recon than they would have for years to come.

    See Neillands book "The Bomber War: The Allied Air Offensive Against Nazi Germany" for a modern take on the subject.

    In reality, the British bomber war was in many respects a disaster (in terms of damaging targets of military value) until 1944. It took that long to work out the technology and procedures needed for accurate bombing.

    For much of the war, the British bombed at night, as it was too dangerous in the day without long range fighter escort (something the Americans, who insisted on daylight bombing, took a long time to admit, taking horrendous losses along the way) which only made matters worse.

    Essentially, for much of the war the British were bombing civilian targets, and not even civilian targets of a military nature such as docks.

    The British were also the first to deliberately adopt a policy of hitting purely civilian targets, thanks to Mr Churchill, in "retaliation" for a German bomber missing its target (incidentally, the whole crew of the German aircraft was arrested the moment they returned to Germany, since this was strictly against Luftwaffe policy at the time). Hitler in turn was stupid enough to "retaliate" for the "retaliation", and the two powers quickly started a race to the bottom...

    On the plus side, the bomber war tied up enormous resources that Nazi Germany was unable to use against the Soviet Union. The British were not hitting a lot of military targets, but nobody likes getting bombed, and preventing that required a truly staggering commitment of German resources (people, fuel, metal, aircraft, gunpowder, radar, and so forth). Along with the Allied supply to Russia, that commitment kept the Soviet Union afloat. For example, when the Soviets finally broke through the German lines, they were only facing about 5% of the German fighter squadrons (and relatively few of those aircraft were operational due to conditions on the Eastern Front).

  26. Re:Don't forget stats & much has changed since by cwsumner · · Score: 1

    Calculus is about how to work with things that are changing. People have problems with change, of all kinds.
    I believe that it is at least partly because they were never taught Calculus in school. There was a time when it was taught in highschool.

    I went to a 2-year technical school, where they had what was called Technical Math. Toward the end, the teacher was teaching "tricks and shortcuts" for working difficult problems. After a while, he told the class that some of the tricks were actually Calculus. The average grade of the studends immediatly dropped about 10%, more for the minority students. The drop seemed to be a self-asteem issue, not intellegence or experiance. Some students seemed to feel that they should not know such things. I was shaken by it and very sad, because the whole class had been doing well with the work, before that.

    I think if they had been taught it any time before that, they would have not felt that way. Dumbing-down classes, is stealing from students. And the least capable are hurt the most.

  27. Try not to be an idiot by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    And thanks for demonstrating you are just a troll.