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At Oxford, a Battery That's Lasted 175 Years -- So Far

sarahnaomi writes There sits, in the Clarendon Laboratory at Oxford University, a bell that has been ringing, nonstop, for at least 175 years. It's powered by a single battery that was installed in 1840. Researchers would love to know what the battery is made of, but they are afraid that opening the bell would ruin an experiment to see how long it will last. The bell's clapper oscillates back and forth constantly and quickly, meaning the Oxford Electric Bell, as it's called, has rung roughly 10 billion times, according to the university. It's made of what's called a "dry pile," which is one of the first electric batteries. Dry piles were invented by a guy named Giuseppe Zamboni (no relation to the ice resurfacing company) in the early 1800s. They use alternating discs of silver, zinc, sulfur, and other materials to generate low currents of electricity.

32 of 211 comments (clear)

  1. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    From The Fucking Article

    "You'd think it'd be annoying as hell for a bell to be going off, constantly, for 175 years—but the voltage left in the battery is so low that the human ear can't actually hear the ringing. Instead, the clapper oscillates back and forth between the bell constantly, which you can see happening in this video. At this point, the experiment is more of a curiosity than anything—Croft says that the battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bell’s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy."

    1. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I wonder how long it hasn't been ringing for.

    2. Re:Bullshit by dj245 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      From The Fucking Article

      "You'd think it'd be annoying as hell for a bell to be going off, constantly, for 175 years—but the voltage left in the battery is so low that the human ear can't actually hear the ringing. Instead, the clapper oscillates back and forth between the bell constantly, which you can see happening in this video. At this point, the experiment is more of a curiosity than anything—Croft says that the battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bell’s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy."

      1 nanoamp is so tiny that it may be being recharged from the environment somehow.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    3. Re:Bullshit by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

      From a little googling, the voltage between the terminals is 2 kV. The clapper draws about 1 nA.

      (175 years) * (2 kV) * (1 nA) = 11045 Joules ]

      Which in terms most people can relate to is about 3 Watt-hours, or about the same as a singe AA battery. Not very impressive.

    4. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, put a AA in a box and come back in 175 years, and try it out. Then we'll see how impressive that is.

    5. Re:Bullshit by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That assumes the bell had been drawing the same current that entire time. The bell used to ring, meaning it was drawing much more current then.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    6. Re:Bullshit by jimmydevice · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I expect you are correct. Put the bell in a Faraday cage and see if it stops twitching. The question is, is the signal being switched, electrostatic, magnetic?

    7. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > 1 nanoamp is so tiny that it may be being recharged from the environment somehow.

      At that rate it doesn't need any recharging. A continuous 1 nanoamp draw (it doesn't make sense to say it draws 1 nanoamp per oscillation because amperage is a rate not a quantity) would discharge a small 1 Amp-Hour battery over one billon hours, or 114,000 years. The fact that it hasn't discharged through interal leakage is pretty impressive though.

    8. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      9V batteries have more than enough current available to stop someone's heart if put in series. If you have 400-1000V DC worth that's more than enough to kill someone. Be glad that a little knowledge didn't get someone killed.

    9. Re:Bullshit by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then we'll see how impressive that is.

      Not nearly as much as his coming back...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    10. Re:Bullshit by Adriax · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, we americans would never keep under performing, outdated electrical appliances around for the historic factor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
      And we have no attachment whatsoever to historical figures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
    11. Re:Bullshit by riverat1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      1 nanosecond..., honestly, that's typically British. In the US that battery would have been trashed already. The Brits are way too much attached to these long lasting historical figures. And royalty is another example.

      Well, there is a light bulb in Livermore, CA that's been burning for 114 years. That hasn't been continuous as there have been some power outages and it's been moved a few times but the Livermore fire department seems pretty attached to it.

    12. Re:Bullshit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Informative

      I do believe that you're thinking of "mA", not "mV". 15 mV is even less than the trigger voltage of an ordinary nerve cell. A few mA, through the right nerves of the heart at the right moment, can _decouple_ the heart's normal pulsing rhythm, causing fibrillation. It's well worth a bit of research into how "defibrillators" work: I'm afraid I'm old enough that I have some acquaintances with implanted pacemakers to control just that sort of problem.

    13. Re:Bullshit by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 3, Funny

      9V batteries have more than enough current available to stop someone's heart if put in series.

      You can stop someone's heart with a standard 1.5V dry cell, you just need to apply it directly to the heart. Stick a bayonet in through the ribs and into the heart, hook a battery to it, and just like magic the heart will stop.

    14. Re:Bullshit by mysidia · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I remember someone making a video about having some fun with a few hundred 9v batteries in series resulting in ~2000 vDC.

    15. Re:Bullshit by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 3, Funny

      Make a deep cut in each thumb. Touch the bleeding thumbs to the terminals of a 9 volt battery. Report the results to us. If you haven't yet fibrillated, snap two batteries together in series and touch the contacts again. Keep adding a battery and reporting back.

    16. Re:Bullshit by rgbatduke · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, you can kill yourself with a single 9 V battery -- or the 12 V battery of your car. One man did:

      http://darwinawards.com/darwin...

      The computation goes as follows. The issue, as several people have pointed out, is that it is current across the heart that causes defibrillation (basically interrupting the heart's natural rhythm so that it pulses chaotically), not a matter of cooking the person (which will also work, BTW, but isn't the most common cause of electrical shock deaths). It isn't even the case that more current is always worse -- there appears to be a range of currents that are more toxic than others. A brief explanation of this is here:

      https://www.physics.ohio-state...

      The maximally toxic range of currents across the thorax is empirically 0.1 to 0.2 amps. Below that it isn't enough to defibrillate, above that the heart muscle clamps all the way which means that when the current is removed it is actually more likely that it can with help or will on its own restore a normal rhythm.

      The internal resistance of the human body once you introduce probes through the comparatively insulating skin is around 100 ohms. A 9V battery across ~100 ohms makes a thoracic current of roughly 0.1 amp, right at the start of the maximally fatal range. The Darwin above was given because an idiot didn't believe this and stuck probes through his skin to "prove" that it wasn't so.

      Personally I've experienced shocks from 12 V car batteries when screwing around with them on rainy nights with salt water on my hands. That's another good way of reducing skin resistance. I didn't take the hit across the torso, but it was every bit as painful as a 110V shock through dry skin -- more so, actually -- and caused my muscles to contract like lightning.

      None of this is actually news -- it has been known as long as there has been electricity, because people have been killing themselves accidentally with electricity just that long. My scout leader 50 years ago worked for GE (as an inventor, actually -- one of the people who invented the photodiode controlled light). He taught me that long ago to ground one finger and then brush another finger of the same hand against any possible hot wire so that you find out with a jolt across your hand, not through your torso. Hand to foot, hand to hand, not so good. People used to kill themselves all the time touching hot electrical switches while standing in wet feet on bathroom floors before ground fault circuits were invented and mandated by code.

      None of which has much to do with TFA, but it is good to know if you work at all with electricity. Physicists need to know it just to be able to teach it to their students so THEY don't kill themselves accidentally one day. It isn't the voltage that kills you, it's the current, and it doesn't take much current to do the job (or much voltage to create a fatal current).

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    17. Re:Bullshit by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Action potentials are a bit funny. They're not actually movements of electrons down a wire like we're used to thinking about, but rather propagating waves of changes in the way cellular pumps move heavy ions through the cell membrane. Action potentials provide essentially no long-distance current, for example.

      If you applied 15 mV across the SA node (the heart's built in pacemaker) at just the right time in the cardiac sequence you might be able to interfere enough to stop the organized contraction. There's a lab at my university that's been looking at analyzing chaotic heart contractions in order to use very small, very well-timed pacemaker signals, to correct them.

      You would absolutely have to do it internally though ("applied directly to the heart"). The human body is basically a bag of salt water, which conducts quite well (about 300 Ohm from head to toe IIRC) surrounded by skin, which is a pretty good insulator. So if you want to electrocute someone, stab the electrodes in first.

  2. Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Actually the janitor changes it once a week when he cleans the room.

    1. Re:Oops by theVarangian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the janitor changes it once a week when he cleans the room.

      Hehe.. maybe he is. The municipal power company in Reykjavik, Iceland built a Focault pendulum in their HQ as a showpiece. Local urban legend has it that after it was first installed the thing would stop swinging at seemingly random intervals which caused the artist and the physicist who designed it a lot of head scratching. No amount of calculations, physics theory and modelling could explain these mysterious disruptions in the predicted workings of the pendulum so finally they set up a camera to observe the thing. The footage showed the pendulum swinging away for hours and hours until suddenly a member of the cleaning staff walked into the frame, stopped, looked at the pendulum, reached out, stopped it with his hand and then walked out of the frame. Mystery solved... dunno if the story is true but it made me laugh.

    2. Re:Oops by msobkow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I hate to tell you this, but most people who've worked support in manufacturing and office environments have similar stories. I spent close to two months getting paged by Northern Telecom in Bramalea, ON for a manufacturing system failure on the shop floor at 2-3 AM most days per week. It was only by deciding to hang out for an entire night watching the area that I found out it was being caused by a cleaning lady unplugging the network bridge to plug in her radio while cleaning the area.

      So seeing as I have one of those stories myself, I find them a lot easier to believe than most of you kids do.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  3. Not a lot of power. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    At the current estimated power draw, thats only (1 nanoampere) * 175 years = 0.00153401723 ampere hours. It's a long time: impressive durability, but not really amazing capacity. Laptop batteries are often ~1000 times that. I don't know the voltage here, so I can't do energy comparisons, just total amp hours.

  4. The Karpen Pile by psergiu · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

    The Karpen Pile, currently on display at the Dimitrie Leonida National Technical Museum in Bucharest, Romania, still gives out 1V after 60 years.

    This one has a glass enclosure so it can be studied.

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  5. Re:Hold your horses by lannocc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I assume the bell used to actually ring, and therefore pulled more than 2 nanoampere for a good while.

  6. Re: let the experiment run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm sure Chuck Berry would agree that is an awfully long time to be playing with your ding-a-ling!

  7. Re:Hold your horses by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually I have to correct myself. I assumed it was low voltage, like a single cell battery, and thus around 1-2 volts. That's not the case - the voltage is around 2,000 volts:
    http://www.sharingtechnology.n...

    That means my calculations were off by a factor of 1333. So if you divide the times I stated for AA and D batteries by 1,333 and you'll get a more accurate figure. So even a deep cell 12 V battery, which is around 120 watt-hours, could only run the bell for 9.5 years. Guess that makes it more impressive than I thought.

    Or my calculations are still way off.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
  8. Re:Interstellar missions... by arth1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Deep space tends to be very cold

    This is misleading at best.

    Space in itself is a near vacuum, which (a) has no temperature of its own, and (b) is a wonderful insulator. Which is why a thermos uses vacuum for insulation.
    Objects in space can become very cold over long time spans, as heat slowly radiates away without being replenished at the same rate. But space itself doesn't cool them down.

    Voyager 1, which is the operative craft that's been in service the longest and receives the least amount of heat from the sun is, after most of the heaters have been turned off to conserve energy, running at around -80C temperatures. That's a veritable furnace compared to other older objects in space that have radiated away more heat over much longer time.

    Also, you say "chemical batteries". Well, yes, it is, but this is a dry battery. The composition doesn't change with colder temperatures, unlike wet batteries where liquids freeze. Dry batteries don't have that problem, which is why it is interesting.

  9. Re:Interstellar missions... by arth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is why a desert can go from 100F to near freezing in a matter of hours when the Earth rotates and the desert is radiating heat out into space.

    Deserts are not vacuums. Deserts cool down at night mainly through air convection. High altitude air on the planet's night side is less buoyant, and is replaced by warmer air from lower altitudes, and this process repeats all the way down to the surface. Katabatic winds are often a result, which the California "sundowner" winds is a good example of.
    Needless to say, that isn't much of a concern for the microclimates of spacecraft.

  10. Re:Hold your horses by quenda · · Score: 4, Informative

    FTA, it takes around 1 nanoampere to ring the bell once. It rings around around 2 Hz. Thus it takes 2 nanoampere a second, which works out to 7200 nanoampere-hours.

    Ouch! Your bad maths is making my head hurt. Amp is a measure of current, not energy or charge.
      A nA is one nano-couloumb per second. WTF does "nanoampere a second" even mean? Current acceleration?
      One nano-Amp for an hour is precisely one nano-Amp hour, duh!
    Better known as 3.6 microcoulombs. At 2kV, it is 7.2 milli-joules of energy.
    For that idiocy you get a +5? Mods need to stay in school.

    The better AAs produce 3 amp-hour of power. That is 3000000000 nanoamperes.

    FFS! First you equate amp-hours with power, and then you equate it with amps. Where did the time unit go?
    Your 3AHr battery at one nano-Amp will last 3 x 10 to the 9 hours, or 342,000 years. (neglecting internal leakage :-)
    Of course you will need a few of them in series to equal the 2kV of the Oxford Bell.
    What has happened to /.?

    (disclaimer: After that rant, I'm almost certain to have made an error myself.)

  11. Re:Interstellar missions... by riverat1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think that's true. On a cloudy but windy night in the desert it doesn't get nearly as cold as on a clear windless night all other things being equal. In fact when I searched for "Desert nighttime cooling" here is the first thing that came up. It basically says under clear low humidity conditions at night radiative cooling is by far the the largest reason for cooling.

  12. Re:Interstellar missions... by itzly · · Score: 3, Funny

    Deserts cool down at night mainly through air convection

    So where are those supplies of near-freezing air around desert areas ?

  13. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 3

    That is true as far as it goes, but in a sufficiently large, flat desert you don't have much winds, and dry air has much lower specific heat, so it can't conduct heat away from surfaces nearly as fast as moist air. Nevertheless desert nights are usually much colder than you would expect.

    What's special about deserts in this regard is that same dry air also means the atmosphere is much more transparent to infrared than, so that far more of the thermal energy radiated towards the sky by the soil escapes from the Earth entirely, rather than being reflected back to the surface. It's basically the exact opposite of the "cloud blanket" effect where dense clouds that blow in near dusk can keep it from cooling off much overnight because the greatly elevated water levels in the clouds reflect much more of the radiated heat. (obviously the effect is much less pronounced in coastal deserts where the air is heavy with moisture even if it rarely rains.)

    We actually had a post here several weeks back of a new surface designed to harness the effect for cooling anywhere at any time of day: it was highly reflective over the high-energy solar spectrum, and tuned to radiate thermal energy at a specific frequency at which the atmosphere was almost perfectly transparent. More primitive technology such as coolth cells work like an inverse solar heater - heat is radiated away from a thermal reservoir overnight, and the cold water used to chill the air during the day.

    --
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