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Kepler Discovers Solar System's Ancient 'Twin'

astroengine writes: Astronomers have found a star system that bears a striking resemblance to our inner solar system. It's a sun-like star that plays host to a system of five small exoplanets — from the size of Mercury to the size of Venus. But there's something very alien about this compact 'solar system'; it formed when the universe was only 20 percent the age it is now, making it the most ancient star system playing host to terrestrial sized worlds discovered to date.

67 comments

  1. Um... by sootman · · Score: 4, Funny

    The only problem with naming satellites after early astronomers is that when I read the headline, there is a moment where I think "wait -- isn't he dead?"

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    1. Re:Um... by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...could be worse; the kids could be asking "Who's this Hubble guy and where did he get that badass camera?"

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:Um... by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      The next probe will be Zombie 2.

    3. Re:Um... by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Who's this Hubble guy

      Duh, he's the guy who created the Hubble Bundle.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  2. How are they rocky? by cusco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I thought that it took multiple generations of supernovas to produce enough heavy elements to accumulate into a rocky planet.

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    1. Re:How are they rocky? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Apparently not.

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      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    2. Re:How are they rocky? by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      I suspect it would depend on the star in question. A monster (e.g. Betelgeuse) likely has a gravity well strong enough to make 'em in larger quantities than our star does.

      Also, neutron stars and other near-black-hole masses could likely crank out heavy elements in shorter order.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    3. Re:How are they rocky? by doug · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the early universe, things were closer together (less time for expansion), and there were more large, hot stars. A stellar generation would have been faster than it is now. That said, it does sound a bit zippy.

    4. Re:How are they rocky? by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

      Depends on the composition of your "rocky" planet. Fusion reagents are energy-positive up to iron. So basically, elements heavier than iron requires multiple supernovae to generate a substantial quantity. Elements lighter than iron can be released in just 1-2 supernovae.

      The elements which make up most of the "rock" on our rocky planet are oxygen, silicon, calcium, iron, potassium, aluminum, and sodium. Of these, oxygen, silicon, and iron are a regular product of stellar fusion, and can be distributed from a single supernova.

    5. Re:How are they rocky? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      This isn't the Fox News comment boards. Take your insults and small mind somewhere else.

    6. Re:How are they rocky? by reverseengineer · · Score: 2

      What's interesting about this star though, is that according to the paper, Kepler-444 is not some primordial supergiant, but a K dwarf (orange, of the same type as Alpha Centauri) with a smaller companion red dwarf (or possibly two companion red dwarf stars which are closely bound to each other).

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    7. Re:How are they rocky? by reverseengineer · · Score: 1

      That should actually be that Kepler-444 is of the same type as Alpha Centauri B, the smaller secondary star in that system. The primary star in Alpha Centauri is a G dwarf (yellow) like our sun.

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      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    8. Re:How are they rocky? by DM9290 · · Score: 2

      I suspect it would depend on the star in question. A monster (e.g. Betelgeuse) likely has a gravity well strong enough to make 'em in larger quantities than our star does.

      Also, neutron stars and other near-black-hole masses could likely crank out heavy elements in shorter order.

      matter inside a neutron star is effectively stuck forever. neutron stars are not a source of matter because they are essentially an end state of matter.

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    9. Re:How are they rocky? by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      when you can run down the entire periodic table in a relatively miniscule thermonuclear explosion here on Earth, what makes you think a 5Ms exploding ball of plasma can't do exactly the same on a proportionately massive scale?

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      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    10. Re:How are they rocky? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Kepler-444 is not some primordial supergiant,

      This shouldn't be too surprising, since primordial supergiants should long since be dead.

    11. Re:How are they rocky? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And so the kettle says, "Hey! What'd you call me?"

    12. Re:How are they rocky? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      The bigger the star, the lower its lifetime. It only takes a few million years for a star to form, shine and then go supernova.

    13. Re:How are they rocky? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Not entirely true. I wondered what happens if you had 2 small neutron stars that collide and I guess they create all sorts of useful things if their combined mass is low enough to not become a black hole. Agreed that if there was just one sitting there it basically does nothing but get some collisions of neutron stars and you get gold. Also when talking about big monsters producing heavy elements you would need something bigger and hotter than Betelgeuse, like a Population III star which are thought to have been fairly common in the early universe and while they are large and when they blow are big enough to destroy their own core and don't create a black hole. So for heavy elements in the early universe these large fast burning monsters might have been able to produce enough. Then again IANAAP (I am not an astro physicist) so I may just be jumping to incorrect conclusions from partial information.

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    14. Re:How are they rocky? by doug · · Score: 1

      If the concern is not having enough time to build up heavy elements, the type of the current start (Kepler-444) is not important. The question is what came before it.

    15. Re:How are they rocky? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had imagined that the first stars were ginormous because hydrogen was abundant. When they expired, which was very quickly, they created a galaxy and their soul is at the center of spiral galaxies. Their shells seeded the spirals of these galaxies and formed new, smaller stars.

      Idk, I could be just making it up but I'd imagine the Big Bang didn't just hurl galaxies out; there had to be a transition phase.

  3. If thats our twin by Yakasha · · Score: 1

    Then it should be named Vincent, and our own system should be renamed Julius. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...

  4. Last Season of Star Trek by painandgreed · · Score: 3, Funny

    Cue the Star Trek music as the Enterprise begins to circle yet another duplicate of the planet Earth. Spock turns to the Captain and says "It seems an exact duplicate of the Sol system, but formed billions of years earlier. Before even the creation of your solar system Captain. Most interesting."

    1. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Someone better call the copyright attorneys!

    2. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by cnettel · · Score: 1

      So, did the inhabitants evolve into somewhat benevolent beings of pure energy, or just underground-dwelling mega-brains that like to keep pets?

    3. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by TWX · · Score: 1

      Relax, at least part of Star Trek fell into public domain...

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      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by slew · · Score: 1

      So, did the inhabitants evolve into somewhat benevolent beings of pure energy, or just underground-dwelling mega-brains that like to keep pets?

      Or maybe the 700yo inhabitants just go around saying "Nyah na nyah, bonk bonk on the head, you mean old grups"...

    5. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      William Shatner's kidney stone.

    6. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

      So, did the inhabitants evolve into somewhat benevolent beings of pure energy, or just underground-dwelling mega-brains that like to keep pets?

      "A QUESTION!"

      "For over 10,000 of your Earth years, I have awaited..., A Question..."

    7. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by umghhh · · Score: 1

      maybe their economy optimized living beings out of existence and now only the stock exchange boots are still there increasing the value and making progress as we speak.

    8. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by mrbester · · Score: 1

      "Captain's log, star date 3545 point 7.

      "We are in orbit around the third M class planet of the K-444 system. Preliminary scans show that this system is incredibly similar to Earth's, but... BILLIONS ofyearsolder.

      "Myself, Dr McCoy, Mr Spock and a security detail are beaming down to explore... ancientruins discovered on the surface..."

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    9. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by mrbester · · Score: 1

      Someone was watching CBS Action today...

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      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    10. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      didn't they do that in TNG with a seed species that spawned every other humanoid race in the Galaxy?

      (checking, and yes. episode #146, S6E20 "The Chase", written by J. Monosky and RDM, directed by J. Frakes. Very enjoyable episode that yet again shows Frakes' skill as a director far outshines his lack of skill as an actor).

      --
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    11. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      oh, to have mod points, Miri is my favourite episode.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    12. Re:Last Season of Star Trek by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      So what's the over/under of this planet being inhabited entirely by Nazis or Prohibition gangsters?

    13. Re: Last Season of Star Trek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because you're a pedocreep. Just like all trektards.

    14. Re: Last Season of Star Trek by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      Kim Darby was 19 when she filmed that. Troll fail.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  5. Crazy! by nightfire-unique · · Score: 3, Funny

    I thought he died years ago!

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    1. Re:Crazy! by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Hey, you can't keep a good astronomer down!

    2. Re:Crazy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but he's alive in Bizarro Universe where he discovered the Solar System's evil twin.

  6. Peanut Butter by pr0t0 · · Score: 1

    And upon one of those rocky worlds is an ancient and advanced civilization. They will be able to give us the secrets of the universe; from interstellar travel and zero-point energy to a smoother, creamier peanut butter.

    I for one welcome our ancient alien overlords.

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    1. Re:Peanut Butter by Sowelu · · Score: 1

      According to ancient alien theorists...

    2. Re:Peanut Butter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want them to give us the secrets to crunchier peanut butter. JIF can't get that shit right at all.

  7. Brightness by Dan+East · · Score: 2

    They calculated that there are 5 planets orbiting the star by the way the intensity of the star dips very, very slightly in a pattern. Are we sure there are no other mechanisms that can cause the star's intensity to vary in a pattern? We only know about our own star's sunspots, and the longer term cycle (11 years) in which the sunspots change the intensity at which it emits. How do we know that a smaller, much older star doesn't have a sunspot type cycle that is shorter or more complex, and that is what is causing this star's intensity to change?

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    1. Re:Brightness by slew · · Score: 2

      They calculated that there are 5 planets orbiting the star by the way the intensity of the star dips very, very slightly in a pattern. Are we sure there are no other mechanisms that can cause the star's intensity to vary in a pattern? We only know about our own star's sunspots, and the longer term cycle (11 years) in which the sunspots change the intensity at which it emits. How do we know that a smaller, much older star doesn't have a sunspot type cycle that is shorter or more complex, and that is what is causing this star's intensity to change?

      Please refer to the Kepler FAQ

      Planetary transits have durations of a few hours to less than a day. The measured solar variability on this time scale is 1 part 100,000 (10 ppm) as compared to an Earth-size transit of 1 part in 12,000 (80 ppm). Even then, most of the variability is in the UV, which is excluded from the measurements by the Kepler Mission.

      Also concerning stellar variablity...

      Even for the Sun - a star of low rotation rate and relatively evenly distributed active regions (in longitude) - variability is concentrated at time scales comparable to the rotational period. Fortunately, the time scales of interest to planet detection are considerably shorter.

      One would hope that we can have enough faith in our friends at Nasa that they would do their homework (rather than just surf a few sites on the internet before launching a 1/2 billion dollar mission)...

  8. I'm on Exoexoearth, I guess. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    > Plays host to a system of five small exoplanets

    No, it plays host to a system of five planets. Unless you think surgeons, after cutting open a patient, should talk about operating on that there exoliver.

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    1. Re:I'm on Exoexoearth, I guess. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Are you claiming those planets are actually orbiting the Sun?

      If not then exoplanet is more specific than planet and certainly not wrong. Do you also complain when people say they have a pet dog, with something like "No, you have a pet mammal"? (cue the next guy calling you wrong and getting even less specific).

    2. Re:I'm on Exoexoearth, I guess. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you claiming those pet dogs are actually living in my house?

      If not then exodog is more specific than dog and certainly not wrong.

    3. Re:I'm on Exoexoearth, I guess. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      No I didn't. But exodog isn't a word and hence isn't a more specific term than dog.

  9. My pet peeve: Star populations by Sowelu · · Score: 1

    Some people get annoyed thinking that electrical positive/negative charges should be reversed, or that pi would be more useful if we used a multiple of it. My pet peeve is star population labeling. Our current generation of stars (and all future ones) are Population I. The immediately previous one is Population II, and the very first stars are Population III.

    I know there's history there... Pop I and II were labeled without regard to which ones actually came first, and Pop III wasn't visible by telescope when the others were discovered so we had to add them later, but come on. Have some dignity and reverse them, even if you need to create a new term instead of population to do it.

    1. Re:My pet peeve: Star populations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't future populations be -I, -II, etc., or are you suffering form infitialisphobia?

    2. Re:My pet peeve: Star populations by Sowelu · · Score: 1

      The stars that come after ours won't have meaningfully different metallicity, so no. Population is not (strictly) generation.

  10. Re:Astronomy is a waste by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

    Never hurts to have a roadmap before you start out.

  11. This is cool but scary because of Great Filter. by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2

    While this is really neat, it is yet more of the accumulating evidence that there are no substantial barriers to intelligent life arising or even arising in the early universe. This suggests that something is wiping out civilizations, possibly something the civilizations themselves all do. This problem is known as the Great Filter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter (Strictly speaking the Filter is whatever makes massive, interstellar, civilizations apparently rare, but it looks like most of the Filter really is at or beyond our rough tech level.) The Great Filter could be nuclear war, or epidemics, or biological warfare, or bad nanotech, or possibly something we haven't even thought of that comes completely out of left field. But the evidence for it is growing. This is scary.

    1. Re:This is cool but scary because of Great Filter. by geantvert · · Score: 1

      Or civilizations become so afraid of the Great Filter that they decide to commit mass suicide.
       

    2. Re:This is cool but scary because of Great Filter. by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      Possible, but seems unlikely. Every species has that level of hysteria? And what about the species born early enough in the universe's history that they didn't have much reason to worry about the Filter?

    3. Re:This is cool but scary because of Great Filter. by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Yep, they call it 'nucular' war. Maybe our species deserves to go out with a bang if we can't evolve past the greed established by religion, the first world government.

    4. Re:This is cool but scary because of Great Filter. by maestroX · · Score: 1

      This does not suggest something special is wiping out civilization.
      It's not a conspiracy, the odds for creating life are very slim, let alone sustaining life over extended periods of time.
      Any species in our imagination will consume its surroundings in one way or the other, so it seems logical that the species itself is destined to extinction.

  12. How about 2.7 billion years old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it formed when the universe was only 20 percent the age it is now

    Instead of obfuscating the actual age behind a percentage and making it more difficult for people to figure it out, why not just say, "it formed when the universe was roughly 2.8 billion years old." Uses less words (and fewer syllables) and conveys more meaning. Of course, this is what copy EDITORS are for!

    1. Re:How about 2.7 billion years old by geantvert · · Score: 2

      Hummm... I think you mean 2800BC

  13. Trantor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Capital planet of the Empire.

  14. They found it just in time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for our first radio transmissions to pass it, but it will be another 117 years before we know if they noticed.

    1. Re:They found it just in time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Planet with the first stargate !

  15. Age of our sun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our sun is roughly 4 billion years old. It will burn for roughly another 4 to 5 billion years. How the heck is Kepler 444 still burning after 11.2 years? Its not even as large as the sun.

    1. Re:Age of our sun by virx · · Score: 1

      Smaller stars last longer.

  16. could by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    could our big bang be just another super nova
    or a new matter stream that started our universe
    into an already existing space like it re used
    or recycled and redistributed materials