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Will Elementary School Teachers Take the Rap For Tech's Diversity Problem?
theodp (442580) writes "Citing a new study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research (free to Federal employees), the NY Times reports on how elementary school teachers' pro-boy biases can discourage girls from math and science. "The pipeline for women to enter math and science occupations narrows at many points between kindergarten and a career choice," writes Claire Cain Miller, "but elementary school seems to be a critical juncture. Reversing bias among teachers could increase the number of women who enter fields like computer science and engineering, which are some of the fastest growing and highest paying. 'It goes a long way to showing it's not the students or the home, but the classroom teacher's behavior that explains part of the differences over time between boys and girls,' said Victor Lavy, an economist at University of Warwick in England and a co-author of the paper." Although the study took place in Israel, Lavy said that similar research had been conducted in several European countries and that he expected the results were applicable in the United States."
How is a study on middle and high school students in Israel relevant to elementary students in the US?
Although the study took place in Israel, Mr. Lavy said that similar research had been conducted in several European countries and that he expected the results were applicable in the United States.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
Weirdly enough, women were quite well represented in technology before the 80s. Clearly there was an interest - so what's changed?
Women in other countries are somewhat more well represented in technology and more likely to go into STEM fields - so what are those other countries doing differently?
There are a number of things that make a strong case for the reasons women aren't well represented in tech being related to artificial issues rather than natural tendencies.
Tech isn't singled out as the one and only important field, by the way. I'm not sure where you get that idea from, but if you look at most any field with a lopsided gender ratio you'll see concern about the gender imbalance and efforts to remedy it. Nursing programs will aggressively pursue male candidates, same for elementary teaching, for example.
In any case, my guess as to why tech is singled out is not that tech is singled out, but that you're probably primarily reading tech sites where this gets discussed, so it just seems that way.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
A quick look at the demographics of teachers shows that around eighty-four percent of teachers are women. So, do women have lower expectations of female students? Are they unconsciously selecting for non-technical professions, because teacher themselves are not working in a technical profession? Are female teachers to blame for discouraging girls, because they were not able to succeed in a technical track in high school and college? Obviously, TFA is another attempt to stir up the "gender wars," but I'm not sure the narrative that's being pushed really fits the current PC template.
1. Let's treat and pay teachers like the profession that they are.
Teachers are for the most part union labor. Therefore they cannot be treated like professionals (i.e. better pay for better teachers, layoffs for poor teachers).
If women don't want to work in tech fields, that's their business.
In my engineering career I have seen it go from no women whatsoever to women coming in and getting prompt promotion to management level - because the directors are terrified of being accused of anti-women bias. And yes, there are women directors, the sort that are also part-time directors of a dozen other companies, mostly finance and legal ones.
But these women engineers have totally different outlook from the men. The men (I am talking about the graduate engineers) have (or have had) hobbies like tinkering with cars, building boats, building electronic circuits, and amateur radio. We lend each other stuff like compression testers, welding outfits and oscilliscopes. The women "engineers" however do none of this; they look on with contempt and claim they are "too busy with families" (as if men are not), but it seems they did not take an interest even before they had a family.
In fact they do not seem much interested in engineering at all. They have helped to turn the work activity to things like financial planning, work programming, managment training, and (worst of all ) "'Elf and Safety". The whole nature of the work has changed from real engineering projects to perfecting paperwork trails. It is no wonder that the Western world is losing or has lost its technological lead and has turned to navel gazing instead.
Being a millenial, I can attest to the fact that growing up interested in technology and science automagically branded you a nerd.
As someone a little older I can attest to the fact that getting branded as a nerd has very little to do with your specific interests and a whole lot to do with how you interact socially with others. I coach kids from 1st grade through 12th and have for over 20 years. What gets them ostracized pretty much never has anything to do with specific interests. People get ostracized for behaving oddly in combination with having nothing to offer others. Nobody gives a shit about the fact that you are interested in technology. What they DO give a shit about is what you can do for them. Can you help them socially? Are you someone who is kind to them when they need it? Can you help them with their homework? Are you fun to be around? These are things that matter in school.
You were picked on relentlessly, harassed and ostricized socially, and generally spent a lot of time avoiding direct contact with interpersonal engagements that did not pass a battery of personal safety tests. Chess club or magic the gathering at school was considered your Turing test for a friend.
I was on our school chess club and played tons of games both computer and otherwise. I spent lots of my free time in the school computer labs and most of my close friends were rather on the nerdy side. I wore thick glasses, was something of an introvert and was painfully shy around girls. I have a name normally associated with the opposite gender and wasn't the most socially graceful kid ever to put it mildly. HOWEVER, I also was the captain of the cross country and wrestling teams. I also made some effort to be friendly and be interested in what others were doing. Sure I got picked on plenty but I also didn't make myself an easy target. I had something to offer others that was unique to me.
EVERYONE gets picked on. I got beaten up on the playground because of my name and the fact that I was a shy, emotional kid by some thugs a little older than me. You know what? I got over it. Anything that makes you stand out is likely to cause you to get picked on. The only thing you can do about it is to adjust your reaction. You can go sulk in a corner but if you are hoping for pity you will be disappointed. Nobody except maybe your parents gives a shit about you except for what you can do for them. Have something to offer. You will not get a job because you are a nice guy who works hard. You need to have something more than that to offer. Things are no different when you are a child. This is a rather good and frank article about what I'm talking about. Have something to offer the world and you'll find it a much more manageable place to be.
Billy Graham and the moral majority however were convinced you were the devil incarnate for playing the game, which was verboten in many schools despite its keen ability to teach logic and strategy.
I've never seen a school that forbid playing chess and teachers generally only give a shit about other games like MtG when they interfere with classes. Maybe you lived in a place where they were irrational about such things (sadly there are some) but that is certainly not the norm and I've lived in a lot of places around the US. Certainly enough to know that that is not the norm.
I for one wore a lot of black, kept to myself, made excellent grades, and played a lot of doom/heretic.
So you dressed oddly, didn't speak to anyone, didn't have anything to offer anyone else and you wonder why people might have thought you strange and wanted little to do with you? Sounds like you were a real self absorbed buzz-kill.
My prize to claim for having spoken a bit too loudly with friends about a quake match and my affinity fo
Let us point out that one of the more difficult of the sciences, chemistry, does not have a diversity problem. There are as many women as men in chemistry at all levels of education and employment. So for the rest of the technology and science groups, what is YOUR problem with gender? It's not that girls can't do math, or science, or get steered in kindergarten, it is something else. Figure that out and solve the problem.
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
Unlike the majority of people here, I actually have experience being female. We moved around a lot when I was a kid so I attended several different school systems in 6 states in the 70's and 80's. I was a nerdy kid, very interested in science. I have never been a math genious but always did quite well in the subject, and enjoyed it, when I had a good teacher. I can't remember one time where any teacher, male or female, discouraged me from science or math. In fact, I remember quite the opposite. My mother, though, she was another story. When I was in 3rd/4th grade I decided that I wanted to be an astronomer. Apparently she had taken astronomy class at a community college, and it turned out to be all math. She failed the class and her takeaway from that was that she is bad at math, and therefore all girls are bad at math, so that meant I couldn't be an astronomer, because it's all math. And of course I believed her. Why wouldn't I? Nevermind that I placed very highly on all standardized tests, including math. In junior high they took me out of regular classes, put me in the gifted & talented program, and I took all the advanced math classes all though high school. I took a CS class in high school, had a Commodore 64 and wrote programs in BASIC. I tested out of my math requirement for my bachelors degree and then after grad school took a couple of calculus and astronomy classes just for fun. All that time believing that I was bad at math. It's very hard to overcome that type of bias, no matter who puts it in your head, even in the face of evidence telling you otherwise. Kids really absorb that stuff. I think it wasn't until I was in my 30's that I realized I was never actually bad at math. I'm now a computer programmer. Can you imagine if my mother had been a teacher? Thank goodness I was the only girl she had influence over.
How can you perform science when you're working with things that can't be measured in any meaningful way? How does one measure 'diversity', for example? Is it based on the proportion of the 'races' and 'genders' of the group being analyzed? How does one determine 'gender' in that case, especially when social scientists tell us that it's 'fluid' and independent of one's genitalia and chromosomal makeup? How does one determine 'race' when social scientists tell us that it is nothing but a 'social construct'? How can their analysis be taken seriously when it conflicts with itself, yet they refuse to revisit their previous theories like scientists do?
In the US, the vast majority of teachers are female at the K-12 level.
There are 3 male teachers out of 40 at the local elementary, and it gets slightly less skewed at the High School level.
So if it is happening at k-12, the issue is with female teachers enforcing the stereotype.
I doubt anyone will accept that in the halls of power, it does not fit the narrative.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
Are we suggesting that in all workplaces, any skew in gender-balance is a "problem"?
No. The feminist argument is that while men and women are different, they are both equally valuable and both equally deserving of the chance to do the things they want to do. If a woman wants to do computer science but is put off by the environment or behaviour of others specifically because she is a women, then that is a problem. I don't think many people would disagree with that.
The feminist argument is that this skew in gender balance is the result of prior socialization. But this claim of nurture over nature is not only unproven, it is utterly untestable.
No. We can easily test for social factors influencing the number of women in CS, because we have masses of evidence and are constantly running new tests.
For example, as recently as the mid 90s there were a lot more women going in to CS than there are now. That is evidence that the numbers have declined for some reason. If you survey women, as many people have, you hear the same reasons given again and again. Sometimes they are the same reasons that men dropped out, but often the reasons are specifically to do with gender or ones that only or disproportionately affect women.
If you want to run an experiment right now, set up some introductory CS classes for girls. They can be mixed, what I mean is you make an effort to appeal to girls and make them well welcome and like its something girls can be involved in, i.e. try to correct the issues that have been identified. See how many decide to carry on studying it at the end. Compare to the average in normal mixed CS classes. Of course this has already been done, and we can see that back in the late 80s and 90s when more effort was being made on this issue it had a measurable effect.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Also when trying to weed out "better" teachers from "bad" ones you might actually do the opposite.
That is a load of crap, and anyone who has kids in a unionized public schools knows it. Most teachers are capable and conscientious, but there are some clearly bad teachers than continue to be employed year after year. When my daughter was in 7th grade, her science teacher assigned each student a chapter to teach, and the students taught the class to each other while she sat in the back of the room browsing the web. When we complained to the principal, he just rolled his eyes and said he had been trying to get rid of her for years. That was three years ago, and she is still "teaching". The unions could be a constructive part of improving our schools, but instead they just stonewall any attempt at reform.
I think this is the best evidence on socialization and gender. Boys were surgically converted to girls at birth, and raised as girls. They nonetheless identified as boys, and engaged in stereotypical male behavior, such as preferring war toys and rough-housing over domestic games and marriage fantasies.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/1...
Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth
William G. Reiner, M.D., and John P. Gearhart, M.D.
N Engl J Med 2004; 350:333-341
January 22, 2004
DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa022236
[FREE TEXT]
Background
Cloacal exstrophy is a rare, complex defect of the entire pelvis and its contents that occurs during embryogenesis and is associated with severe phallic inadequacy or phallic absence in genetic males. For about 25 years, neonatal assignment to female sex has been advocated for affected males to overcome the issue of phallic inadequacy, but data on outcome remain sparse.
Methods
We assessed all 16 genetic males in our cloacal-exstrophy clinic at the ages of 5 to 16 years. Fourteen underwent neonatal assignment to female sex socially, legally, and surgically; the parents of the remaining two refused to do so. Detailed questionnaires extensively evaluated the development of sexual role and identity, as defined by the subjects' persistent declarations of their sex.
Results
Eight of the 14 subjects assigned to female sex declared themselves male during the course of this study, whereas the 2 raised as males remained male. Subjects could be grouped according to their stated sexual identity. Five subjects were living as females; three were living with unclear sexual identity, although two of the three had declared themselves male; and eight were living as males, six of whom had reassigned themselves to male sex. All 16 subjects had moderate-to-marked interests and attitudes that were considered typical of males. Follow-up ranged from 34 to 98 months.
Conclusions
Routine neonatal assignment of genetic males to female sex because of severe phallic inadequacy can result in unpredictable sexual identification. Clinical interventions in such children should be reexamined in the light of these findings.
A study by researchers from the University of Georgia and Columbia University, which evaluated 5,800 elementary school children, came to the opposite conclusion as these Israeli researchers. Researchers analyzed data from 5,800 elementary school students and found that boys performed better on standardized exams in math, reading and science than their course grades reflected.
From the above-referenced study:
The gender differences in grades emerge early in all subject areas and favor girls in every subject. Because boys out perform girls on math and science test scores, it is surprising that girls out perform boys on teacher grades in math and science by nearly 0.15 standard deviations. Even more surprising is that the girl boy gap in reading grades is over 300 percent larger than the white black reading gap and the girl boy gaps in math and science teacher grades are about 40 percent larger than the corresponding white black grade gaps.
and
the inconsistency between test scores and grades is largely accounted for by non-cognitive skills. White boys who perform as well as white girls on these subject-area tests and exhibit the same attitude towards learning as white girls in the classroom are graded similarly.
So, in short, if a boy acts and has a similar learning style as girls, he will get the same grades as girls. Women dominate the teaching profession - 84% of teachers are women. In Kindergarten it's even worse - 98% of teachers are women. Therefore, women apparently value students whose learning style is similar to their own.
In another study, boys were awarded lower grades by women teachers than by external examiners. Whereas male teachers gave girls the same marks as external examiners.
On the political side, in 1972 there were 17% fewer women graduates of college programs than men and this was considered something of a crisis and Title IX was passed to ensure equal opportunities for education regardless of gender. Today, 25% few men than women graduate from college and President Obama calls this a "great accomplishment."