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US May Sell Armed Drones

An anonymous reader writes: Nations allied with the United States may soon be able to purchase armed, unmanned aircraft, according to an updated U.S. arms policy. Purchase requests will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and foreign military bodies would have to agree to a set of "proper use" rules in order for the U.S. to go ahead with the sale. For example: "Armed and other advanced UAS are to be used in operations involving the use of force only when there is a lawful basis for use of force under international law, such as national self-defense." These rules have done nothing to silence critics of the plan, who point out that the U.S. has killed civilians during remote strikes without much accountability. The drones are estimated to cost $10-15 million apiece.

24 of 131 comments (clear)

  1. Nobody gets to use the surprise face by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Weapons, entertainment, and food are pretty much the bulk of American exports.

    Exporting weapons that wind up being used against our own troops is fairly commonplace in this scenario, but hey, it's all about the corporate profits baby!

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      They'll certainly end up being used against someone the US is allied with, and "agreements" aren't going to forestall that.

      "such as national self-defense"

      "Terr'rists active within our boders" It's been used as justification for all sorts of otherwise-illegal activity, so countries can stay within the terms of the agreement and still go after their own civilians.

      We work hard to prevent nuclear proliferation ... why not prevent advanced drone proliferation as well?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    2. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We work hard to prevent nuclear proliferation ... why not prevent advanced drone proliferation as well?

      They're just not that difficult to manufacture.

      If American military developers are not allowed to sell theirs, someone else will.

      The market share of worldwide death-dealing is a real thing.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't be absurd ... America is largely about exporting IP laws these days ... you know, bullying other countries into signing treaties designed to enshrine guaranteeing profits of multinational corporations in the laws of as many countries as possible.

      Apparently, America's foreign policy has mostly been co-opted by corporations, and now America just does what they're told.

      America used to stand for Democracy, Liberty, and Freedom. Now it's Copyright, Patents, corporate Rent Seeking, Surveillance, and a little arms sales on the side.

      You might almost say that America's principal export is the Global Oligarchy with a side of totalitarianism. Because, really, that's what it is.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by MTEK · · Score: 2

      Weapons, entertainment, and food are pretty much the bulk of American exports.

      As an entrepreneurial American, I'm left wondering about a product that combines all three.

    5. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by Bonzoli · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.worldstopexports.co...
      United States Top 10 Exports

      The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in American global shipments during 2014. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of US overall exports.

      Machines, engines, pumps: US$219,566,232,000 (13.5% of total exports)
      Electronic equipment: $171,966,197,000 (10.6%)
      Oil: $157,213,437,000 (9.7%)
      Vehicles: $135,797,903,000 (8.4%)
      Aircraft, spacecraft: $124,831,567,000 (7.7%)
      Medical, technical equipment: $84,879,104,000 (5.2%)
      Gems, precious metals, coins: $65,522,480,000 (4.0%)
      Plastics: $63,025,216,000 (3.9%)
      Pharmaceuticals: $43,967,977,000 (2.7%)
      Organic chemicals: $42,255,264,000 (2.6%)



      Perhaps they are priming to give Kiev some assistance with armored vehicle based terrorist/separatists/greenmen/ignorantrussians.

    6. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by tsqr · · Score: 4, Informative

      Weapons, entertainment, and food are pretty much the bulk of American exports.

      Actually, no. In 2013, the US was the second largest exporter of arms ($6.2 billion), after Russia ($8.3 billion). And because you probably won't read the linked article, I should mention that these numbers include the estimated value of arms given as foreign aid. But those numbers are dwarfed by the real heavyweights.

      Top ten US exports in 2013:

      1. Machines, engines, pumps: US$219,566,232,000 (13.5% of total exports)
      2. Electronic equipment: $171,966,197,000 (10.6%)
      3. Oil: $157,213,437,000 (9.7%)
      4. Vehicles: $135,797,903,000 (8.4%)
      5. Aircraft, spacecraft: $124,831,567,000 (7.7%)
      6. Medical, technical equipment: $84,879,104,000 (5.2%)
      7. Gems, precious metals, coins: $65,522,480,000 (4.0%)
      8. Plastics: $63,025,216,000 (3.9%)
      9. Pharmaceuticals: $43,967,977,000 (2.7%)
      10. Organic chemicals: $42,255,264,000 (2.6%)
    7. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ford beats both Honda and Toyota in quality now according to Consumer reports, as reported by Time:

      Ninety percent of Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products were found to have average or better expected reliability, matching and even surpassing the scores posted by Honda and Toyota and their associated brands, such as Acura and Lexus, the magazine said.

      "It's rare for Consumer Reports to see family sedans from domestic carmakers continue to beat the reliability scores of such highly regarded Japanese models as the Camry and Accord," says David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports, Automotive Test Center.

      Ford's reduction in number of brands (no more Mercury) and models is paying off in increased quality.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    8. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      how about a honda civic compared to a ford mustang? (also a good analogy since the foreign product will be junk, at first, based on inappropriate chunks of existing technology from other projects, but eventually will surpass others in reliability...)

      I love people perpetuating myths. Have you looked at any recent data? American vehicles have also recently been showing better quality numbers than Euro cars. The Dodge I'm driving today (2012 model), isn't anywhere near the crap they produced twenty years ago. And FWIW, I've owned everything from Mercedes, Saab & BMW to Infiniti, to nearly every flavor of US make, in my ~40 yrs of driving. Just anecdotal here, but most of the foreign brands broke as frequently as the domestics, but were more expensive to repair, with my Infiniti being the exception (most reliable vehicle I've owned), though they wanted ~$500 to replace a headlight ballast.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    9. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by caseih · · Score: 2

      And even food is actually used by the US as an economic weapon, especially when it's tied to aid packages, which is very unfortunate.

    10. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the US definition of "allies" wasn't so lax (Israel, Colombia, Bahrain, etc). Don't get me wrong - I'd pick the US over Russia for example any day. But that doesn't mean that I'm comfortable with all of the US's "allies" having the right to buy the US's latest weapons, on their word alone.

      It's worse than that. From TFA:

      Armed and other advanced UAS are to be used in operations involving the use of force only when there is a lawful basis for use of force under international law, such as national self-defense.

      So it's a "Do as we say, not as we do" policy. Obama's use of drones has been against U.S. and International law from the very beginning. The Bush administration may have been guilty, too, but it has vastly expanded under Obama.

      Dear Mr. Obama: killing young teenagers who may be "suspected terrorists" was not legitimately in defense of the safety of the U.S., nor a lawful act of war. It's murder, under both U.S. law and International law. Like the Geneva Conventions, for example.

    11. Re:Nobody gets to use the surprise face by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Look at this list from the same website:

      Top Military Weapons Exporters Below are the 15 countries that exported the highest dollar value worth of military weapons (excluding artillery products) during 2013:

      1.United States: $277,159,000 (83.8% of total military weapons exports)
      2.India: $9,668,000 (2.9%)
      3.South Korea: $6,466,000 (2.0%)
      4.Colombia: $5,000,000 (1.5%)
      5.Norway: $4,766,000 (1.4%)
      6.Croatia: $3,291,000 (1.0%)
      7.Australia: $3,265,000 (1.0%)
      8.Slovakia: $3,000,000 (0.9%)
      9.Thailand: $2,910,000 (0.9%)
      10.Canada: $2,814,000 (0.9%)
      11.Poland: $2,293,000 (0.7%)
      12.Russia: $2,005,000 (0.6%)
      13.Netherlands: $1,962,000 (0.6%)
      14.Senegal: $1,266,000 (0.4%)
      15.Malaysia: $1,100,000 (0.3%)

      Pretty sure weapons is a subset of machines in your list.

  2. What happens when ISIS and al-Qaeda get drones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Drones are cool when only rich nation states can afford them, but it's only a matter of time before anybody can buy them, and payback will probably be "a bitch" as they say.

    1. Re:What happens when ISIS and al-Qaeda get drones? by invictusvoyd · · Score: 3, Funny

      Once they get them , it wont be too long before we read, " ISIS drone targets top Al Quaida leader "

      _______________
      Breaking news : Scientists have now mapped the gene which makes them map genes .

    2. Re:What happens when ISIS and al-Qaeda get drones? by DickBreath · · Score: 2

      The US won't let al-Qaeda or ISIS get armed drones any more than the US would let them get US made weapons.

      I hope that answers your question.

      :-)

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  3. And I'm sure by invictusvoyd · · Score: 3, Funny

    They have put a kill switch in them somewhere ... Juuust incase one of those nations discovers that they are sitting on oil ..

    1. Re:And I'm sure by spire3661 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Im glad you look at shooting million-dollar missiles as a no-cost scenario. Thank you for wasting my tax dollars.

      --
      Good-bye
  4. Re:Face it America ... by TheCarp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As an American myself, I really can't find any fault there. I have been saying basically the same to my countrymen for years. That said, its not us.....its the Aristocratic ruling class that we wont admit exists.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  5. Those proper use guidelines in full by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

    foreign military bodies would have to agree to a set of "proper use" rules in order for the U.S. to go ahead with the sale

    Those rules are as follows:

    1. If it moves, kill it.

    That is all.

    --
    Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  6. Do as I say? by ilsaloving · · Score: 2

    Is this one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" things?

    I bet it's one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" things.

  7. Expect to see them in Ukraine by Trachman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Expect to see these drones in Ukraine soon, then. Not that the change in the policy was needed, since US is providing to the ally Israel, but it does seem as a message to Russians that they will see drones soon in the war zones of Donbas and Crimea.

    Had Ukraine had drones six month ago, or better a year ago, their situation would have been much different and they would not need to go through shameful and humiliating "decisions to withdraw" time after time. Sort of a disgrace for a 5th largest weapons exporter in the world, industrial powerhouse, rocket builder and a formerly nuclear country , but we digress here.

    Yes, we know that the war is a significant contributor to the scientific research, however expect these UAV to be battle tested in Ukraine against most modern Russian radio-electronic warfare methods.

  8. Re:Face it America ... by MaWeiTao · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm curious to know who this collective "we" is that you're talking about. There is a lot that the United States does that is cause for concern, but there's also plenty the US does to help. You give me the impression that either you're either ignorant about everything that happens around the world or you're very selective about where you get your news.

    As for the US military, for a whole host of reasons the US is endlessly doing Europe's dirty work. They sure are averse to getting involved, even when something's happening in their own backyard or their own meddling was the source of those problems. And in the end, while Europe enjoys the luxury of keeping its hands clean they have no shame in getting on their high horse about American involvement around the world.

    Of course, the US could always take the Chinese approach of superficially not getting involved in anything, but supporting oppressive regimes so that they can strip nations of their resources. Take a look at what they're doing in Africa.

  9. Re:Face it America ... by TheCarp · · Score: 2

    I think Kruchev said it best "Politicians are the same all over; they promise to build a bridge, even where there is no river".

    Doesn't matter what the claimed ideology, doesn't matter the system, people in power will say whatever they have to say, truth or not, sequitor or not, if it means staying in power. Power and principles are mostly mutually exclusive.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  10. Re:Face it America ... by dave420 · · Score: 2

    Nonsense. The US does its own dirty work for its own purposes. It doesn't help Europe out for Europe's sake. Europe has been involved in every military action in recent years, in many different roles. Stop pretending the US is some bastion of goodness when it comes to military action - it's not. If it were, it wouldn't have overthrown democracy after democracy time and time again, then got all surprised when "their guy" either turned on them, or got kicked out and replaced with someone vehemently anti-US.

    The Chinese approach you describe is the non-military American approach. The US has been doing that for decades. That you don't know this pertinent fact kind of shows you are not in possession of all the facts. Just research the "School of the Americas" to see just how dedicated to this tactic the US has been.