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Electrical Engineering Employment Declines Nearly 10%, But Developers Up 12%
dcblogs writes The number of people working as electrical engineers declined by 29,000 last year, continuing a long-standing trend, according to government data. But the number of software developers, the largest IT occupational category, increased by nearly 12%,or a gain of 132,000 jobs. There were 1.235 million people working as software developers last year, and 271,000 electrical engineers, according U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data.
Let's be honest about this. Electrical engineering can now be outsourced fully, as companies do not see the value in EE or more importantly that the skills are transferable to other areas such as programming. Furthermore, ageism is rampant in most of the technical field now, as HR types will want to hire someone their own age.
I've been saying EE is a dead profession in the West, anyone who studies this now as a kid is either an idiot or a masochist.
However, while this might be true for the work roles people are performing, the article at the end shows that EEs have lower unemployment than CSs.
This is my experience: When interviewing EEs and CS degreed employees, I'll chose the EE over CS 9 out of 10 times for a software job. In general they have a stronger grasp of the big picture, hardware, software & firmware. In fact I've been downright disappointed with the level of CS expertise by CS grads lately. It is as if the universities are training them for javascript, web site production, and IT support as apposed to a deep understanding of the CS field.
What we can say about this article is: there are more software than hardware jobs, but EEs are dual purpose, and overall have lower unemployment.
"A nearly 10% decline in jobs from one year to the next, in a field that is supposed to be booming, is troubling," said Russ Harrison,
Who says it's booming? All those companies who want more H1-bs?
This whole STEM shortage is all bullshit.
"Clearly, some people who were employed as electrical engineers in 2013 were not employed as electrical engineers in 2014."
I'd would love to know the ages of the folks who left. What's the saying, "What do you do with an engineer when he hits 40? Take out back and shoot him."
I'm an electrical engineer myself and the BLS statistics for this profession are misleading. The government categorizes electrical engineers into several sub-categories: electronic engineers, electrical engineers, fabrication engineers (silicon folks) and there is another for power engineers (the guys who work for the power company). I'd be hesitant to take this headline seriously without looking into it further.
Categorizing electrical engineers under IT is one of the worst insults you can give
This is my experience: When interviewing EEs and CS degreed employees, I'll chose the EE over CS 9 out of 10 times for a software job.
The trouble is that as a dyed-in-the wool EE with experience in lots of software, I hate working on websites and business systems. And that's my only real choice if there is no manufacturing jobs around.
See, you are way over qualified for that kind of work. I would find that work interesting and a challenge and would stick around. Unfortunately, too many employers would rather have an EE working on their systems and paying a lot more than someone like me - just a CIS guy.
Employers are just so screwed up and they insist that it's the workers fault and our society that they can't find enough "qualified" people.
Maybe a number of Electrical Engineers have been re-designated Computer Engineers. By Computer Engineers I mean the people who design computer hardware.
So on paper I'm both an EE and a CS. Most EE's are doing the same thing. CS majors, nope, you're just CS.
i find the opposite, some of the EEs coming over to software struggle with change & new ways of doing things. I'm not even talking about bleeding edge, but basic CSS knowledge. They had portfolios stuffed with successful windows apps, but couldn't seem to grasp web stuff.
I play around with FPGAs & microcontrollers as a hobby, and ask what they think; Most of them comment that's why they changed career direction.
Got hosed soon after 9/11. I survived though barely (and even in between jobs now), but you'll survive too. Sad situation and sometimes life is a b&tch, but life will go on.
EE's in China are doing just fine.
We're not building as much hardware anymore so it shouldn't surprise that demand for engineers is falling here.
It only takes one good EE to keep about five software types busy. Been that way for years.
No sweat. We'll just fix it in software.
Have gnu, will travel.
Just wondering.
Why is Snark Required?
Fewer than before. The engineers are all overseas, just the managers remain here (and not for long).
People in the plant design business have been suffering from offshoring and increasingly-automated data-centric design software.
Expensive, sophisticated, software run over the internet by people earning 1/10 to 1/3 "western" hourly rates means that as older, more experienced workers retire, they are not replaced (or at least not on a 1:1 basis).
Most of the problems with offshoring are miscommunication, time zones and cultural.
Tasks that were formerly performed by younger people entering the field are now done by the software (eg., cable routing, single-line diagrams). Offshoring and automation are great for cost reduction but this does not bode well for people looking to enter the discipline.
For our main quarter, we hire predominately people which are used to work independentely, study, and find solution in litterature : maths major, physicist biologist outrank CS by a factor of 1 to 4 (welll.... when not buying cheap dev in eastern countries). The deal is most CS major we see , as a whole, are unable to make their own research. Unable to find stuff in litterature ( or at least the majority do) often they reinvent the wheel. Whereas somebody with a PhD or a magister in physic, has a far more skill to make research and reuse solution which exists.
In fact looking at the code produced , often with the exact same amount of experience, the CS major have a poorer code than physics, biology and maths major. If you ask me, that's because the CS major think they "got it" and are not used to doubt their own work, and often want to make their mark by inventing stuff (NIH syndrom) and are too quick too overlook detail in requirement, overestimate their skills etc... Whereas the other group, are used to *question* their work by nature, work methodically at dissecting the requirement and do not care to make their mark in software. Curious, I think this is due to the way HOW both group study and HOW they come to their study matter . In the end the CS major code is poorer by all our metrics we have than other groups. That's an average though, so naturally we have CS major which are better than our Math Phd guy.
Another interresting stuff is that we have far far far more "diva" in the CS major group and none in the other group.
You will know almost nothing important about the field when you leave college. If you manage to work for about five-ten years actually doing engineering -- as opposed to being mired in meetings, committees, half-finished projects, retreats, and seminars -- you'll probably pick up enough to actually feel like you own that degree. Related, you run into an engineer who has real chops right out of college, and you'll realize that what you have is no more than a ghostly, incomplete outline of the real tasks you face.
When you leave college, prepare to do a *lot* more bookwork, ask a lot of questions, figure out the ebb and flow of things like (for an EE) parts availability and longevity and market cycle, FCC and UL certifications, how to actually work with mechanical engineers, manage all manner of varied computer toolchains -- pcb layout, device programming, cpu programming, source code repositories, BOM managment, project planning tools, and so on... and math. You're going to have to get very, very comfortable with at least a moderate level of math. Any cribbing and cramming done in college will have to be replaced with a concerted effort to actually wrap your head around the subject.
And then we get into the many, many specialized areas that will affect just what you need to learn. RF? Microwave (not the same as RF, trust me on this)? uP system design? Signal processing? Embedded systems? Automotive, aircraft, military, space systems? Batteries? High power systems like transmission lines? Neural designs? Medical, with its myriad sub-sub specialties, some of which are more art than science? Networking? Household? Process control? AI? Robotics? Toys and Games? Probability? Test instruments? Antenna systems (it's like RF but with with a dose of magic and a dose of art and a dose of luck and the constant interference / interaction of everything with what you're trying to accomplish)? CNC? Will you need to learn about hardening? Sonar? Radar? Beam weaponry? EMP? I guarantee you'll learn quite a bit about ESD, probably first hand if you work in a dry region...
Oh, and the reality of commercial drives and deadlines, those usually come as quite the nasty shock, too. You haven't lived until the words "ship it!" send a nasty shiver down your spine because you know more testing / characterization / documentation / special casing / something else is called for.
As my boss at Can-American Electronics back in the day told a prospective hire when he announced he had a PhD: "Well, I won't hold that against you."
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Decline? It's been like that for decades now. That, and a means for otherwise arbitrary classing:
Job: Keeping 20 or so PCs running.
Requirement: 2-year degree
Reason: [crickets]
etc.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
"But... but... isn't there a library for that?"
lol
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
One of the key parts of the story point out one of the realities of engineering; many engineers work in jobs that are outside of their degree field:P>
Electrical engineers have likely moved into other fields, such as software engineering, or to other engineering areas such as aerospace, or to Wall Street, among other occupations.
While it goes on to say some are no longer employed; with a 2% unemployment rate chances are if you are an EE, looking for an EE job, you have a job.
One of the challenges firms looking to hire engineers, at least a few years back, was competing with non-engineering firms for workers. I remember engineering companies complaining about Wall Street hiring engineers (and scientists) and how horrible that was; well pay salaries like on the Street and you can get all the engineers you want. Shortages of employees is usually from an unwillingness to pay what it takes to get the employees you want rather than a true shortage. That's not always the case but withe employees having had a buyer's market over the last fews years it's usually a safe bet that it is the case.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
15-20 years ago there were plenty of manufacturing jobs for EE's. It was a great way to learn how things were really put together, and in many cases it was the foundation of a good design engineering career. Places like HP/Agilent did a lot of their test an measurement RF/microwave career paths this way. A few years of keeping a production line that making RF/microwave widgets was a great way to learn the ropes and see how to (or not) make a good manufacturable design. Virtually all of that type of work is now offshored to Malaysia, China, and similar.
Much of the design work has been eaten up by better ADC's and DAC with gobs of FPGA's doing what used to be an art form. So now the minimum level of skill needed to work as a decently paid EE doing actual EE work is very very high.
Large numbers lost their jobs as the manufacturing went elsewhere and the engineers scurried to other jobs like programming, IT, etc to be able to feed themselves. There is a vacuum now between the EE graduates and the companies who need to hire more EE's. Companies want 5 years experience minimum to make sure you aren't a buffoon (and because they often simply have no entry level work to do), but there are very few entry level jobs to get that experience. So lots of fresh graduates find other work outside their EE degree. So lots of graduates, lots of job openings, and no good way to span the apprenticeship gap.
I'm a computer engineer. So on paper I'm both an EE and a CS. Most EE's are doing the same thing. CS majors, nope, you're just CS.
Its not that simple. If you compare the curricula of some CS programs you will find that they are exactly the same as many CE programs, Also you will find some CE programs a bit light on engineering and more like a mediocre CS program. If you are looking only at the title of the degree you are clueless. You need to look at the classes that comprise the program at that university to get a clue.
And if you are old like me look at the curricula of a current CS program, even at your old university. Things may no longer be as you remember. My old CS program from the 80s looks like a CE program today. To be fair my old university greatly expanded the engineering department since I left and it now has separate CS and CE programs.
If I was hiring programmers, I would be very inclined to hire real engineers (of any stripe) than degreed "computer scientists"
If you had a clue you might know that Computer Information System, Computer Science and Computer Engineering programs vary greatly from one university to another. CIS at one university may be in the business school and the program oriented towards internal corporate applications, while at another university CIS may be part of the engineering school and be what many would expect a CE program to be. Similarly some CS programs are what many would expect a CE program to be, while some CE programs are pretty much mediocre CS programs.
The degree title is fairly useless info. You have to look at what the classes are in that program, if its a recent grad. If not a recent grad you have to ask them what they took. My ancient CS degree is pretty much what you see in a good solid CE program today. The modern CS degree offered by my old university is quite different. To be fair they greatly expanded the engineering department since I left and now offer separate CS and CE degrees.
Attitudes are different outside of Silicon Valley. The worst I've seen along these lines is a few of my peers who've done things blatantly towards adding to their resume vice being a professional at their current gig.
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
So on paper I'm both an EE and a CS. Most EE's are doing the same thing. CS majors, nope, you're just CS.
No you are not, real EE's would double up in laughter at you. You are a "CS" major who has taken many of the classes an "EE" minor would need. Probably not a complete set though. In truth you are entirely equivalent to a CS major who took elective hardware classes. Assuming of course a good CS department with some required hardware classes and then some more advanced elective classes. You have nothing over CS majors who went to these good schools and took these electives.
Back in my school we had EEs, ECEs (electrical computer engineers), and CS's. The way it worked was EE or ECE dropouts would fall back to CS and do fine. This happened with 1/4 of the class. Only the best and brightest could make it through an actual EE / ECE degree. What this chart is showing is that many of the Es are simply moving into another career path since a pure electrical engineer is not needed. Considering how bright Es are this is an easy task.
Nah that's bull. There are many EE engineers, managers and architects at *many* companies throughout the US. Companies will always need strong, "local" talent, outsourcing was proven a couple years ago to not be a great idea.
They can't even address simple on-the-spot software solutions
I was once hired because I did not answer an interview question. In the written eval there was a question with 8-10 sorting algorithms listed and I was asked to state the run time complexities. My answer was that I purchased Knuth vol 3: Sorting and Searching so that I would not have to memorize such things.
I have been doing RF/Microwave/Antenna design for 20 years and plan on doing it until I drop dead. Never had a lack of work.
The funny thing is every electrical engineer I know under the age of 80 is now developing software. That's only a sample size of around a dozen, but still that anecdote does seem to be pointing towards a trend.
Fast forward a few years when the world it taken over by the AI's and driverless cars. Who's gonna fix them? All the EE's are in the far East.
Gun, allow me to introduce you to foot.
Anybody else enjoying the 100,000px wide horizontal scroll bar on Slashdot now?
Some genius put text-indent: 99999px on the Prefs link. Any junior developer that knows how to test their work (or use Google for that matter) knows you need to use a negative text-indent to avoid a scrollbar when hiding text like that.
Maybe they should hire some electrical engineers.
</rant>
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
I call bullshit, especially on the last part. Name some universities that actually do this.
I call bullshit, especially on the last part. Name some universities that actually do this.
Don't know the school but I once worked with an old timer whose degree was CIS. When I made a joke about COBOL he explained his school and course of study. Did some googling and found this:
"The Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) program in Computer and Information Systems Engineering (CISE) is a unique interdisciplinary program. It integrates the strengths of various disciplines of computer science, computer engineering, electrical engineering, mechanical/manufacturing engineering, information systems, and systems engineering."
http://www.tnstate.edu/enginee...
His CIS program did not go that far but it did go into the EE stuff as a modern CE program would.
Again, don't make assumptions based on degree title.
"Shortages of employees is usually from an unwillingness to pay what it takes to get the employees you want rather than a true shortage"
That about sums it up accurately for technical fields.
I am going to have fun watch this happen to the physicians now that they sold their practices and became hospital employees. I hear that phone consults are now possible. The AMA can lobby all they want ... physicians are in the bulls eye to get outsourced.The rumblings have already started about a "physician shortage".
Electrical engineering is not in decline.
As tech advances we will need more engineers than ever. Outsourcing is not a solution here...it's low quality work that hurts your home market.
Here's the problem: ontology.
The distinctions between "electrical engineering" and "software engineering" are breaking down because so much of engineering work is software.
Look at astronomy. All astronomers are radio astronomers now. That doesn't mean we still don't need 'old-fashioned' regular-light astronomy skills...just that today's astronomer needs different skills than before.
It's still astronomy.
It's still engineering.
Thank you Dave Raggett
As a guy currently doing a job that normally requires an electrical engineering degree job in a factory, this kind of makes me wonder... My employer wants me to go and get my ee degree, and they will pay for it, since I'm already in the job, should I go ahead and do so? I have absolutely no college credits of any kind, I went through an apprenticeship with a well respected manufacturer here, went to work for my current employer as an electrician, and was promoted to the position I'm in now. I enjoy the work far more than being an electrician. Is there any way I can hurry the process up? It is suggested that I do one class a semester until I complete it, which seems like it'll take forever!
That means that peer is smarter; in a group, the cheaters always advance. He takes the risk (of not getting caught) and gets the reward.