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Mike Godwin Interviewed
theshowmecanuck writes CBC Radio in Canada has just posted an interview with Mike Godwin, the originator of the famous Godwin's Law. Unbelievably it comes after a week where Canadian politicians started flinging the H word at each other. Part of the interview reads: "I really wanted people not to make silly or glib comparisons that really show no awareness of history... and I think that to that extent Godwin's Law has succeeded."
But the guy doesn't have to be a nazi about it.
In fact, many cases of Hitler references trivialize the almost inconceivable magnitude of the evil of the 3rd reich. But some cases - the Khmer Rouge or ISIS, for example - it really is appropriate. Yet Godwin is used to stifle the discussion. I think in that sense it has been a disservice.
Dear Mike Godwin, making rules that don't apply to yourself == literally Hitler! :P
Unbelievably? Really? Stephen Harper is the closest thing to Hitler this world has seen in over 50 years. The man is pure evil. Far more sophisticated and dangerous than Hitler ever was. The man should be hung for treason, and there is a real possibility he eventually will be.
"I really wanted people not to make silly or glib comparisons that really show no awareness of history... "
-Adolf Hitler, Sept. 17, 1942
"and I think that to that extent Godwin's Law has succeeded."
Awareness? Only so far as people can now point it out with a handy phrase that is connected to modern times.
Bombastic political rhetoric has existed for centuries, and Hitler as a point of reference is only recently to the fray.
Censorship in the name of historical awareness?
I object! This kind of intellectual NAZI-ism about postings MUST stop.;-)
Well, if we are going to measure how 'successful' this 'law' is, I would say it has total success. Consider that the way that Putin was able to radicalise some segments of the Russian population and have his covert war in Ukraine by pushing propaganda that Ukrainian is ran by 'fascists' and 'nazis', and they have achieved this by equating the Ukrainian nationalists, who use Bandera symbolism to fascism. Of-course Bandera was a nationalist who was trying to build a movement to get both, the Soviet and the Nazis out of Ukraine and he did not mind using connections with the Nazis to achieve his goals, however he was far from being a fascist, he personally spent time in a Nazi concentration camp after once it became known he was building an attempt of overthrowing the Nazis in Ukraine.
So Godwin law is here to stay, it proved to be extremely useful for the powers of the world.
You can't handle the truth.
For those who aren't aware of what was said, in the case of Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau's comments, I don't think Godwin is being appropriately applied.
Mr. Trudeau didn't compare the government to that of the Nazis. He didn't compare it to Hitler. He didn't claim that a government policy was as bad as the Holocaust.
What he did say is that current anti-Muslim government policies are akin to the Canadian policy just after World War II of "none is too many" when it came to Jewish immigrants to Canada, which the Government of Canada has since admitted was wrong.
In essence, it compared a current policy to a previous policy that the Government had admitted was wrong. I don't see why everyone is so upset, other than that the government would like to try to make this into a Godwin-like comparison in order to score cheap political points. For the record, according to the interview (for anyone who doesn't RTFA), Mr. Godwin agrees with this analysis.
Minister Blaney, however, seems in my mind to have skirted the line much more closely, specifically bringing up the Holocaust as an example to try to prop up support for an unpopular bill. His specific statement, that the Holocaust didn't begin with the gas chambers, but with words is correct -- however I have to agree with MP Randall Garrison (FWIW, he represents my riding, although admittedly I didn't vote for him in the last election) who said that this was "over-inflated rhetoric".
So in essence we have one instance worthy of invoking Godwin against, and another that had nothing directly to do with the Holocaust, but instead a Canadian policy that happened around the same time, and affected the same people, which mirrors in some respects what the current Government is attempting to do with a different population, for which Godwin shouldn't apply (but which is being brought out in some corners in an attempt to score political hay).
Yaz
Imagine if Stalin were as popuarly invoked for purposes of illustarting abuse of power; we might have a chance.
Canadian politicians started flinging the H word at each other
The what word? I mean, yes, "Hitler" is an H-word, but that can't be it. How the fuck does one use "Hitler" in such a manner? Do you call them a "Hitler-head" instead of a "shit-head"? Just doesn't sound right..
No one with a brain adheres to silly arbitrary internet "laws".
This is all utter bullshit.
Now, go ahead and mod me down, you brainless cock-gobbling retards.
Godwin's law is a usenet phenomenon, intended to describe the period when a usenet thread could go on and on for weeks. So a thread woud be 'officially ended' by Godwin's Law when someone invoked the hitler mentioning.
On today's modern web, i.e. on Slashdot, theads never last more than a few days because blog site operators close down the comments after a few days or a week has passed. The agenda of discussions is driven by the operators by means of throwing up new 'articles' all the time.
Essentially, Godwin's Law is obsolete and doesn't pertain. Certainly not in the context that it was created to operate within.
It's just a meaningless meme now that people use to shut down discussions even more prematurely than blog operators like Slashdot do by shutting closing off comments and adding new topics.
An entire interview with Mike Godwin about Godwin's Law. <sarcasm>I mean, didn't he have some kind of marginal involvement in the EFF??</sarcasm>
Just listen to the first 30 seconds of this from Alan Watts (nearly half a century ago).
Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
and one of its expressions is what the NSDAP had succeeded in its endeavors. That is why the comparison to the NSDAP is the endgame.
you nazi fascist
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/c...
Hello reddit. I am Ben Lesser[1] .
I am the founder of the Zachor Holocaust Remembrance Foundation[2] .
I was born in Krakow, Poland, in 1928. With the exception of my older sister Lola and myself, the rest of my family was killed by the Nazis.
Over the 5 years of the war, I was fortunate to survive several ghettos, as well as the notorious camps of Auschwitz, Buchenwald, and finally be liberated in Dachau.
After the war, in 1947 I immigrated to the United States where a few years later, in 1950, I met and married my wife Jean. Over the years, I became a successful realtor in Los Angeles and after retiring in 1995, I have devoted my time to being a volunteer to speak in colleges and schools about the Holocaust.
I wrote a book about my experiences, entitled Living a Life that Matters[3] .
I am looking forward to answering your questions today. Victoria from reddit will be helping me via phone. Anything I can do to further the cause of tolerance - I am always ready, willing and able to do. Anyway, you go ahead and ask any questions.
How frustrating is it that some people refuse to believe the Holocaust occurred?
[–]IamBenLesser [S] 1196 points 2 days ago
Well, Victoria, I don't believe that they don't know better.
They know better.
They just believe that if a lie is told long enough, that some people will start believing in that lie.
Because nothing in history was ever as documented as the Holocaust itself.
So... you know, how could they deny it?
Eisenhower, when he came across these camps, instructed his soldiers, the fighting men to take pictures - all the pictures they could, from all they saw, these atrocities, "because someday there will be people denying that it ever happened."
That it ever happened.
So he was smart enough.
And millions, and millions of pictures. It was documented in pictures, and films. So what's the use of denying it?
They are preying on youngsters who don't know better, or uneducated people. This is why education is important. Because people who are in countries who don't have the chance to know the truth - they hope that these people will believe it.
Those are anti-Semites. People who hate Jewish people.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
agreed people that censor and stifle use godwins law far too much as if it really was a law....its a guys opinion NOT A LAW
and if you realize what they fought those nazi's about you might see the similarities in the Canadian law and harper in general.
That being said remember not always are we talking about hitlers nazi's BUT the better examples people might be freaked out about are that the Italian fascist party had JEWISH MEMBERS...THIS APPEARS TO BE WHAT THEY ARE MODELING OUR NEW WORLD AFTER.
are you for damn real?
Don't freaking do it..wow just wow
cause you are advicating for a NAZI REGIME OR POLICY.
jsut google all the people around him that have allegations or fraud charges, HECK even his old buddy mulroney....
toss 600 people into jail over a weekend for a 1.2 billikon rich person party
and have a disabled onelegged guy attacked and dragged off
AND YES there is video
The problem with Godwin's Law is that nazism is on the rise and people are afraid to point it out because of Godwin's Law.
http://www.vice.com/read/white...
(fun fact: the nazis' internet clubhouse is 8chan, because birds of a feather...)
You are welcome on my lawn.
All hail our Fuehrer! Here comes the Internet Nazi Master Race!
The law merely states that *eventually* any thread will have a mention of Nazis on it if it doesn't stop being active. And the postulate is that after that point, it will only be about the Nazis from there on, not the original topic.
So looking at that, it shows those saying that we shouldn't use the Nazis are looking guilty of breeching this law.
Add in that the law doesn't say anything about winning or losing the argument, and you have the fallacists's fallacy with the *use* of Godwin's Law.
"since the law came into effect"
Oh, please. It's not a law in the prescriptive sense, it's a law in the descriptive sense. It's like the law of gravity, not the law against murder.
Godwin's Law is true, but apparently even Godwin doesn't understand why.
People inevitably make Hitler comparisons because it's the only moral bedrock we have left. There is no other issue upon which we can all be expected to agree.
Here's how Internet discussions work:
I say "X is bad". Somebody disagrees, so I say "X is bad because Y is bad". Somebody says "but Y isn't bad", so I have to say "Y is bad because Z is bad". Given the vast diversity of the Internet, there's going to be somebody who says "but Z isn't bad". To make my argument I have to find some basic moral bedrock, a thing that is so bad that we can ALL agree it's bad. Hitler is the ONLY thing that fits that description, so eventually every discussion will get there. That's why Godwin's Law is true.
Godwin's Law is about the fact that humans don't agree about morality. No more, no less.
Godwin's Law didn't stop being true. I see it all the time.
Hoser. Come on you can say it.
on a related note, Jack Tramiel (of Commodore and Atari fame) also spent time (6 years) in Auschwitz and other concentration camps. He ended up doing a lot of business in Germany, manufacturing and selling his computers there. He hired German management and employed Germans. He worked closely with German bankers.
One would think he would have a deep hatred for the Germans, but no. His outlook was "I live in the future. Only the future. There's nothing else."
About his time in the camps, he once said "It's hard to believe it really happened. But it can happen again, in America. Americans like to make rules, and that scares me. If you have too many rules you get locked in a system. It's the system that says this one dies and that one doesn't, not the people. That's why I don't hate the German people. Individuals, yes. Rules, yes. But not all Germans. They just obeyed the rules. But that's why we need more Commodores. We need more mavericks, just so the rules don't take over."