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Senator: 'Plenty' of Domestic Surveillance We Still Don't Know About
An anonymous reader writes: In a recent interview, Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) has complained about the Obama administration's failure to shut down the NSA's bulk collection of phone metadata. This program and most other programs we've heard of were disclosed by Edward Snowden. But Snowden couldn't tell us everything. When asked if there were further domestic surveillance programs about which the public knows nothing, Senator Wyden said, "Yeah, there's plenty of stuff." The ones he knows about are classified, so he couldn't elaborate. "Even in cases where the public has been informed of government practices, Wyden warned the government still collects far too much information on millions of citizens with virtually no accountability."
It's too bad that Wyden isn't half the patriot Snowden is. We need someone in authority to step up, tell the American people what is going on, and take the heat for it. The last 2 administrators have been so anti-liberty that one can make the argument the government is no longer working for the people.
In the end the worrying thing is not that "they" are watching us, it is that they do everything in their power to stop us watching them. Whether by voting you government in or even by abstaining they are still your government and you must do what they say - including going to war. But if you are unable to watch them then democracy itself becomes no more than a marketing exercise.
... stop being an enabler and speak up.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
If a bunch of Republican senators could get together and write a letter outlining the details of these abuses, I'm sure there wouldn't be any consequences (to themselves) whether the spying is classified or not. Plus, it would be a great way to limit the powers of the federal government and stick it to Obama at the same time!
5 seconds later, he'd be arrested for revealing classified information. Then the American people would vilify him as a traitor for letting the terrorists know how they're being watched, and he'd be put on trial for treason. In the end, it would make no difference. Nothing will until the majority of the people actually care and desire to not be spied on.
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As for when the people will care -- it'll be after a big scandal involving the abuse of domestic spying powers. Reporting on the spying itself will never disturb most people. A report on say the IRS borrowing NSA spy data to repossess people's guns, on the other hand, will cause a frenzy.
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War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
And besides, he's a senator. He is actually in a position to talk and be heard by people that matter. Moreover he's the one telling us that there are even more programs, and that he disagrees with the expansive privacy violating abilities the make possible.
The downfall of this "more perfect union" is going to be from within and in the name of protecting it from terrorists.
We need someone in authority to step up, tell the American people what is going on, and take the heat for it.
So Wyden spills the beans, goes to jail, and then we're left with no one on the inside that will let us know that the intelligence community is still overstepping their bounds. As a bonus, after Wyden tells everyone what's going on, the executive branch refuses to take any action and continues to cow the legislature into letting them do what they want because the rest of the Intelligence Committee is largely a stunning exercise in uselessness.
As long as he remains in office and on the Committee, Wyden is doing more good being on the inside - certainly more good than those like Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Mikulski, or my own state's elected dickhead Marco Rubio. Only in the event Wyden loses his place on the Committee or fails to get re-elected would coming out and telling everything he knows be potentially useful.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Too bad he's not in a position where he could write some sort of law about it. If you can't fix the problem from there, the problem's not fixable. I'm guessing the majority of the American public either approves or doesn't care. I guess in which case, is the problem even a problem? I mean clearly some people here and this guy seems to think it's a problem, but if the vast majority doesn't agree, are you going to tell them they're wrong? I'm pretty sure that's the definition of fascism. Just sayin'...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
He's not doing anything useful. He is not telling us anything that can't already be assumed to be true. He mentions the existence of more classified programs, but that should not come as any surprise to anyone with an ounce of awareness. He sits of the oversight committees, asks inconvenient questions, and is otherwise ignored there.
So what use is he?
Wyden's on-record questioning of James Clapper – wherein Clapper answered "No sir... not wittingly" to Wyden's "Do you collect any information on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" question – is cited by Snowden as the event that pushed him over the edge, and caused him to disclose the US domestic spying programs. Wyden's patriotism set the whole thing in motion.
See the Wikipedia article on the Speech and Debate Clause or read it for yourself in the Constitution. So he can talk all about the program during a speech on the floor of the Senate, and nothing can be done to him.
Sousveilliance means basically watching the watchers. In this modern world collecting information about people continues to get easier, not just by governments but by the business world as well (Google and Facebook to name a couple of prominent examples). The only real defense the general public has against this is to watch back so we can stem the abuse of the data collected.
Author David Brin writes a lot about this at his blog, Contrary Brin including his current post, "Armed with Cameras". His basic thesis is that you're not going to stop all of this enhanced surveillance even if you pass laws against it. It's too easy to do. So the answer is to sousveil, watch back intently enough so we can call the watcher out on their abuse.
BTW, I'm proud to have Ron Wyden as one of my Senators. He's in a position to know an has been at the forefront of curbing government abuse of surveillance for a long time.
...is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
If the government has done nothing wrong, they should have nothing to hide.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
Like all members of the federal Legislature (the House and the Senate), Wyden is Constutionally protected from being punished for any action taken in the course of his official duties. (Dipshits from both parties have gotten out of drunk driving tickets by saying they were on their way to the Capitol, so this is a pretty broad protection.) If Wyden obtained a classified document about surveillance programs and ordered it read into the Congressional Record, which is a routine thing that Senators and Representatives do, he couldn't be punished for it. (The Pentagon Papers were read into the Congressional Record this way, for example.)
If the government has done nothing wrong, they should have nothing to hide.
Wrong when directed at you, just as wrong when directed at government.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Getting the public riled up doesn't appear to solve the problem of the government sneaking around doing illegal stuff. If you want this to stop, you must solve the problem of how to force the government to follow the rules first.
He's a patriot, he isn't going to violate his oath just to push his agenda.
I support his agenda to scale back these programs, and I support him doing it from within. He's almost the only one trying, and I'm proud that he represents my State.
Wyden's on-record questioning of James Clapper â" wherein Clapper answered "No sir... not wittingly" to Wyden's "Do you collect any information on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" question â" is cited by Snowden as the event that pushed him over the edge, and caused him to disclose the US domestic spying programs. Wyden's patriotism set the whole thing in motion.
I wonder if Wyden really knows this... and realizes where it may lead. If political ambition is his goal he could take it to the top some day. In 2015 Americans view 'the government' as the No. 1 Problem to solve. Unfortunately the issues they are most upset with -- such as healthcare -- are extremely partisan.
Domestic NSA surveillance is NOT a partisan issue. Who will chair the first Church Committee of the 21st Century? Senator Frank Church warned us waay back in 1975,
"Now, that is necessary and important to the United States as we look abroad at enemies or potential enemies. We must know, at the same time, that capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left such is the capability to monitor everythingâ"telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide.
"If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.
"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
As Snowden has revealed, we are at the edge of the abyss. As I have repeatedly warned in these forums, this furor over so-called phone call metadata is a limited hang-out, a diversion from the clear and present danger of full content backbone taps at interconnects. And here in Wyden's remarks we get a glimpse that there is more to the story. A 21st Century Church Committee is needed.
Here's what Wyden needs to do:
1. Call a press conference to announce that there is enough cause in the publicly available Snowden leaks, as well as certain other details he is privy to and cannot disclose, to form a 21st century bi-partisan 'Church Committee'. He would need to give a quick recap of those 1975 proceedings for those who are historically challenged... but it would make for a very interesting and well televised event.
2. Call another press conference the very next day. This one to publicly announce and air out any personal dirty laundry he may have. Extra-marital affairs, investments with conflicts of interest. Unless there is murder in there not only will he get a free pass, but people would take notice if he states that he is 'clearing the field' and proactively mitigating any attempt to leak this information as a distraction. He can also point out that whether or not they would take such action, they may be in possession of this information, and that is what the Committee hopes to address.
3. Get the ball rolling.
It's time to pull the chain and flush the NSA. I call for the death penalty -- that is complete defunding (including black budget), complete dism
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
Ron Wyden is the peoples politician from Oregon. Time and time again he has stood up for our rights and got legislation passed when he could. Just look up his record. Thank him when you can for being there and doing what's within his realm. He really pushes back against corporate thuggery. As for senor Snowden you already know how I feel about him and I URGE you not to waste your next presidential vote and write in Edward Snowden as a candidate to let the nation know what we think. It is the BEST way to poke the 2 Parties in the ass and let them know how important he is to our rights that are getting trampled on. NO SECRETS no spies needed...