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Arkansas Is Now the First State To Require That High Schools Teach Coding

Posted by timothy on from the unexpected-locale dept.

SternisheFan writes Arkansas will be implementing a new law that requires public high schools to offer classes in computer science starting in the 2015-16 school year. Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson, who signed the bill, believes it will provide "a workforce that's sure to attract businesses and jobs" to the state. $5 million of the governor's proposed budget will go towards this new program. For the districts incapable of of administering these classes due to lack of space or qualified teachers, the law has provisions for online courses to be offered through Virtual Arkansas. Although students will not be required to take computer science classes, the governor's goal is to give students the opportunity if they "want to take it." Presently, only one in 10 schools nationwide offer computer science classes. Not only will Arkansas teach these classes in every public high school and charter school serving upper grades, the courses will count towards the state's math graduation requirement as a further incentive for students. Training programs for teacher preparation will be available, but with the majority of the infrastructure already primed, the execution of this new law should hopefully be painless and seamless.

121 of 211 comments (clear)

  1. Maybe they should ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ... do some other things first.

    Arkansas is ranked 44.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:Maybe they should ... by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You have to start somewhere, and doing something proactive is statistically better than doing nothing.

      While this opportunity will not much effect the future of most Arkansan students, there will be some individual talents discovered that would've otherwise been overlooked.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    2. Re:Maybe they should ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... do some other things first. Arkansas is ranked 44.

      So your point is that instead of improving their schools, they should focus on improving their schools?

    3. Re:Maybe they should ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Maybe to get into those classes you need pre reqs... Like math...

      An introductory programming class does not require more than grade school math. My local elementary school teaches programming to 4th graders using Scratch. 90% of them "get it" with little difficulty. They understand loops, conditionals, subroutines, etc. After a few weeks most of them can design an algorithm to say, draw a pentagram, or find the 1000th prime number.

    4. Re:Maybe they should ... by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      No. He's right. It won't effect the future. The future will happen anyway.

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    5. Re:Maybe they should ... by TWX · · Score: 1

      I'm curious if this can work as an incentive to keep kids in school, or to get kids to enroll in higher-level math in order to continue to meet the prerequisites to take the computer science classes. As in, if they really like the entry-level class, but have to take math to keep going up, if they actually will continue to take math.

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    6. Re:Maybe they should ... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      They should focus on improving their schools, not chasing novel fad trends.

    7. Re:Maybe they should ... by lgw · · Score: 1

      They should focus on improving their schools, not chasing novel fad trends.

      Schools as they are teach kids to be good little manufacturing workers. That was actually a great idea 100 years ago, but now the "novel fad trend" has passed. Coding seems pretty likely to be a rewarding job skill for the next 100 years. As everything that can be automated becomes automated, there will be plenty of jobs developing that automation.

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    8. Re:Maybe they should ... by readin · · Score: 1

      Scratch is fine, but if you're going to teach any of the modern languages that use "=" for assignment, I would recommend waiting until algrebra is completed to avoid creating confusing between the mathematical "=" and the assignment "=".

      But better would be to start with Pascal-like syntax where ":=" can be read as "becomes equal to" with the colon standing in for "becomes".

      For the really high IQ kids it may not matter, but the average student who has trouble grasping the full implication of mathematical "equal", introducing a new meaning for the sign will cause trouble.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    9. Re:Maybe they should ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      How does that fit with this?

      The Robots That Will Put Coders Out of Work

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    10. Re:Maybe they should ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      There are no statistics that indicate a push for coders is a good idea.

      Statistically, a negligible number of students could be affected in a positive way, but they have the tools trhey need to start learning from home.

      The rest of the effort is just a an appeasement to the tax payers in a state rated 44th overall.

      Coding will not save the Arkansas school system.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    11. Re:Maybe they should ... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      Nothing can "effect" the future.

      That's more of a philosophical statement than a quibble on grammar.

      As a verb, effect means to cause, achieve or bring about. If you think nothing can "effect" the future, then basically you're a Calvinist.

      A simple rule that I like to use: You can affect an effect, but you can't effect an affect unless you're in the same business as Meryl Streep and Robert de Niro.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    12. Re:Maybe they should ... by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      There are no statistics that indicate a push for coders is a good idea.

      Sure, but if in this example, you are Arkansas, it would be to your advantage to fill as many of the coding jobs with Arkansans as humanly possible.

      Statistically, a negligible number of students could be affected in a positive way, but they have the tools trhey need to start learning from home.

      The rest of the effort is just a an appeasement to the tax payers in a state rated 44th overall.

      Coding will not save the Arkansas school system.

      The propensity to describe the number of students affected as negligible is in direct proportion to previously held belief sets.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    13. Re:Maybe they should ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Schools are boredom generators which teach students to loathe and fear learning.

      Putting coding in the schools is a great way to plow salt into the fields and demoralize the next generation of programmers.

    14. Re:Maybe they should ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      If you are in the business of selling coding educational crap, it would be to your advantage to do so in Arkansas.

      Statistically, their educational system sucks.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    15. Re:Maybe they should ... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Ha! That's been happening continuously since the beginning - better languages, better frameworks, etc. You almost never need to write a toolkit these days, or a script to refactor code in some simple way. I started with assembly, and for all Java's many problems, it's several times as productive. Turns out the need for programmers is mostly limited by budget, not by the universe of problems that need to be solved, and so more companies started hiring developers as the better tools made the payoff better.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    16. Re:Maybe they should ... by DedTV · · Score: 1

      Much of the state is rural areas with rural students whose ambitions didn't go beyond spending their lives working the family farm just like their daddy and grandaddy; many of whom were traditionally "home schooled" until Arkansas introduced much more stringent requirements on home schooling in the late 90s. The old joke that when it's 12:30 in Little Rock, 15 minutes outside the city it's 1950, isn't really much of a joke as it's not far from fact. That's what drags down the statistics. But those statistics are actually great for the state as the money that keeps coming in to "fix" the "broken" education system (thanks to Arkansas native Bill Clinton's "No Child Left Behind" act, funny how that works out huh?) doesn't go to a town in Monroe Country whose high school graduating class is 12 and has an annual budget of 3 paperclips and a mule. It goes to the schools in the growing business hub cities that were already fairly good so overall, the schools in such cities are now well above average, but with districts carefully designed to include enough rural and impoverished kids to keep the test score averages and graduation rates from looking too good.

      This is just another of the measures Arkansas is trying to entice more tech companies to move to Arkansas. It's a dirt cheap place to do business and a dirt cheap place to live (I bought a new, high end 3200 square foot home in 2010 for under $300k) with plenty of undeveloped areas to grow out. They've been working to build out tech infrastructure in Little Rock and between Bentonville (Walmart HQ) to Fort Smith (a manufacturing and shipping hub) for most of the past decade. Now, they're trying to develop the workforce to further support it. And, as you mentioned, Arkansas would absolutely love to attract businesses who sell coding crap or do any other kind of tech stuff. They've been grooming the state for such businesses for years. Get the people selling coding crap here and the people who make coding crap will follow.

  2. Excellent idea! by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1, Funny

    Let's force everyone to learn how to code! We need more bad programmers!

    After all, people who think they know something without really knowing anything are the best!

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    1. Re:Excellent idea! by burtosis · · Score: 5, Informative

      No one is forcing anyone. If you read the summary you would know it simply is a required offering. Not mandatory.

    2. Re:Excellent idea! by byuu · · Score: 1

      I was fairly annoyed after reading the (as usual) poor Slashdot title. But even the link summary here mentions that taking these classes will be optional. So long as that remains the case, then (ignoring any budget constraints) this is a good thing.

    3. Re:Excellent idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, look how forcing everyone to learn how to read turned out for you.

    4. Re:Excellent idea! by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      This is Slashdot. I read the title and posted my stupid comment.

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    5. Re:Excellent idea! by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Let's force everyone to learn how to code! We need more bad programmers!

      You just don't get it do you? This is something that they have to do. They'd be the laughing stock of the country if they don't progress their unemployed masses to the modern economy!

      How can Arkansas hold its head up high when all the popular states have bucket loads of unemployed programmers and they only have unemployed mechanics?

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    6. Re:Excellent idea! by burtosis · · Score: 1

      Ahh yes traditional slashdotting. My bad.

    7. Re:Excellent idea! by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Teaching high school students to code isn't going to result in disastrously bad coders any more than high school chemistry and physics lessons result in bad scientists. If people in this day and age are still hiring coders without actually verifying their skills and qualifications, then they deserve all the bad coders they get.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    8. Re:Excellent idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The world is dominated by technology all made possible by code. People need to have a basic understanding of how and why it works.

    9. Re:Excellent idea! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      (I see what you did, there).

      its sad that people 'in charge' seem so disconnected from reality. teaching 'programming' or even engineering to americans, with the hope and assumption that it will make them more marketable to the job force - I have one word for that. HA!

      its an h1b market and will get worse and worse as time marches on. immigrants can and will work cheaper than americans, employers know this and employers know the reason for the h1b push.

      locals will not compete. its already that way, in tech areas of the country. you think the deep south is going to be any different? immigrants will go to the deep south and their THEIR jobs, too.

      you joked about auto mechanics, but those are skills that cannot be outsourced. you have to be present to do an engine swap. rajiv (I mean 'bob') can't do this over the phone. those will be the safer jobs, going forward. not high paying, but lets be honest: a constant paycheck is way better than being out of work for months at a time, every year or two.

      --

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    10. Re:Excellent idea! by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      you joked about auto mechanics, but those are skills that cannot be outsourced. you have to be present to do an engine swap. rajiv (I mean 'bob') can't do this over the phone. those will be the safer jobs, going forward. not high paying, but lets be honest: a constant paycheck is way better than being out of work for months at a time, every year or two.

      Actually I was thinking about general mechanics and the demise of the manufacturing sector in the US. So yes, in one sense mechanics have been outsourced.

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    11. Re:Excellent idea! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      How can Arkansas hold its head up high when all the popular states have bucket loads of unemployed programmers and they only have unemployed mechanics?

      1. Arkansas has more programmers per capita than New York or California.
      2. Programmers have less than half the unemployment rate of other workers.

    12. Re:Excellent idea! by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      1. Arkansas has more programmers per capita than New York or California.
      2. Programmers have less than half the unemployment rate of other workers.

      There you go, ruining a cheap joke with facts.

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    13. Re:Excellent idea! by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      An outsource so complete and effective that most people forget that mechanic once meant so much more that just car mechanics.

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    14. Re:Excellent idea! by lgw · · Score: 1

      its an h1b market and will get worse and worse as time marches on. immigrants can and will work cheaper than americans, employers know this and employers know the reason for the h1b push.

      Total bullshit in every way. It's like you can't think beyond your hatred of brown people. Programming is a world market, and you compete with the world for jobs. Every H1B is a person who is paid more than they would be to do the very same job in their home country! And they pay US taxes, besides. The tragedy of the H1B program is that we should just be giving them green cards instead - we surely need to tax revenue in the coming years!

      The nice thing is: there are still plenty of jobs world-wide. There was a time when the labor pool in programming was increasing exponentially as every country with a CompSci program was opened to outsourcing for the first time, but that's all explored now. The world's supply of coders is expanding linearly now, as all the worlds universities crank out coders at a steady rate (plus the few like me who make it without the degree). The demand is growing faster.

      The US economy just went through a long-ass downturn, nothing programming-specific about it (blame the banks and the politicians that enable them). But the big software companies are hiring like crazy now (my team has 9 open positions, it's nuts), and while you may have to move away from Arkansas to where the jobs are, that's pretty much win-win.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    15. Re:Excellent idea! by readin · · Score: 1

      Let's force everyone to learn how to code! We need more bad programmers!

      After all, people who think they know something without really knowing anything are the best!

      We need people who understand what computers are and what they are capable of. This is similar to how we teach biology to everyone even though most will never become doctors (or even bad doctors). We teach chemistry to everyone although most will never become physics. We teach literature to everyone even though many will never work at McDonald's or Starbucks.

      Most people will never be doctors, but they will visit doctors, take medicines, deal with minor injuries at home, vote on issues related to impacts of chemicals on humans and animals, etc.
      Most people will never be programmers, but they will use computers for a growing number of things throughout their lives and be affected by policies like net-nuetrality, big data mining, data retention, computerized vote fraud, etc.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    16. Re:Excellent idea! by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      its an h1b market

      I see that repeated over and over, but I've never had trouble finding a job. I've worked (remotely) with contractors from Slovenia, China, and India, and the pattern that I've seen is that they generate more work for me fixing their broken code than they take away from me by doing the initial implementation. I'll worry when I stop seeing a coder with 10 years of experience making mistakes that I learned to avoid while I was still in school. Until that time, I can successfully compete on quality.

      --
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  3. That'll make everyone a programmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    just like teaching how to read and write made everybody a novelist. But it will do to programming what the 90s did to web design: "Are you kidding me? How much? I think I'll get my 12 year old nephew to make our company homepage. He made one for his Quake clan too."

    1. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      So your point is, that because only few people become novelists, we should skip teaching reading and writing in school?

    2. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by itzly · · Score: 1

      Reading and writing are very useful skills you use on a daily basis, even if you're not writing novels. The ability to write computer programs is mostly useless, outside actually writing computer programs.

    3. Re: That'll make everyone a programmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It teaches basic understanding of computer logic and how computers work in general. Most people have no clue. People should be more than just their jobs. A well rounded education is nice for some to have.

    4. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The ability to write computer programs is mostly useless, outside actually writing computer programs.

      Nonsense. Learning computer programming teaches students to think logically and systematically, and you can't fake it, because your program either works or it doesn't. I know programming, and I know calculus. Knowing programming is about a thousand times more useful. If high schools teach calculus, they certainly should teach programming, at least as an elective.

    5. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Reading and writing are very useful skills you use on a daily basis, even if you're not writing novels. The ability to write computer programs is mostly useless, outside actually writing computer programs.

      The ability to read and write is mostly useless, outside actually reading and writing.

      All of us are computer operators. All our tasks can be made more efficient through automation. A batch script that extracts all lines from a CSV file containing the string "w00t" could save a single operator hours or days trying to do the same thing with search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... [ad nauseam].

      Writing novels is more analogous to commercial software development. Software development isn't the only use of writing programs.

      --
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    6. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by burtosis · · Score: 1

      Learning computer programming teaches students to think logically and systematically, and you can't fake it, because your program either works or it doesn't.

      Hmmm. I distinctly remember a TA in my C+ class looking at my code and frowning, all the while I was saying "yea but it world dosent it?"

    7. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      A batch script that extracts all lines from a CSV file containing the string "w00t" could save a single operator hours or days trying to do the same thing with search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... [ad nauseam].

      Who needs a batch script.

      sed -i".bak" '/w00t/d' foo.csv

      I don't even know sed syntax, all it took was a bit of googling. Looks similar to vim syntax which I am slightly more familiar with. Open up the file in vim and :g/w00t/d

    8. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      I distinctly remember a TA in my C+ class

      You only got a C+? Maybe you should study harder.

    9. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Vim. Sed. Yeah, like most office types have them to hand. I knocked together a .bat to hunt for specific groups in AD extracts once. I'm sure there were more efficient ways to do it, but my way was more efficient than my assigned task of opening the properties window for every user in the system and checking their memberships visually. The difficulty wasn't writing the script (trivial copy-and-paste of various bits and bobs on the internet) but on knowing what I was looking for. I knew what I was doing because I'd been taught to program. And I also knew the principle of false positives being acceptable, and false negatives unnacceptable.

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    10. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      So you're trying to prove that most people don't need to know who to write a program *by writing a program*?

      I do not predict success for this endeavor.

    11. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "The ability to write computer programs is mostly useless, outside actually writing computer programs."

      For most people writing programs, the program is a tool used to make thing they are actually trying to sell; the program itself is not the product.

    12. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by burtosis · · Score: 1

      Exactly lols. At least my code had fewer spelling mistakes than my post.

    13. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      So you're trying to prove that most people don't need to know who to write a program *by writing a program*?

      Using the built in features of sed or vim, isn't "programming" "to me."

      Now if you were talking about writing bash scripts, now that would be more akin to programming.. And personally I think knowing "scripting" would be more useful to more people than knowing "programming".

      For example, if I wanted to check if list of websites were offline or not...I could open them in tabs.....or:


      #!/bin/sh
      for x in $(cat url_list.txt);
      do
                    lynx -dump $x | grep -ol "Error 404";
      done

      That is more akin to a program than my simple usage of sed, but still isn't the same as:


      10 print "input name"
      20 input a$
      30 print "Hello, "a$

    14. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Why is using the built in features of one runtime program but using the built in features of another runtime not programming? You can write things like the game arkanoid or the calculator dc for sed. Do they suddenly become non-programs?

      Or how about your "Hello, World" with input:

      #!/usr/bin/sed -f
      1 i \
      Input Name:
      1 d
      2 s/\(.*\)/Hello, \1/
      q

      (It requires an initial carriage return to get the prompt, because I'm not that good with sed.)

    15. Re:That'll make everyone a programmer by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Why is using the built in features of one runtime program but using the built in features of another runtime not programming?

      That is a VERY good point, and you are technically correct, but I think the "real programmers" would laugh at me if I called that bit I did with sed, programming. We have to draw a line "somewhere".

      You can write things like the game arkanoid or the calculator dc for sed. Do they suddenly become non-programs?

      Well, sed IS Turing complete, true. But again, we have to draw a line "somewhere". Don't ask me where, I'm not a programmer! Yes, yes I've given sed, bash and BASIC examples in this discussion, but I can't program my way out of a paper bag.

      That said, I think a course in scripting or computing concepts would be more useful to more people than teaching them Java (Personally I think they should use python). Knowing the very basics of if/then/else/do/while/for/next concepts has been useful for me. Heck just teaching people that there's more to computing than their web browser would be good.

  4. Thank god they didn't drag gender or race by burtosis · · Score: 1

    Into this. I'm glad they offer computer science classes. I would have taken one in high school if it was offered.

    1. Re:Thank god they didn't drag gender or race by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      I took a CS class in HS. In 1975.

      Why do people see it as a radical new thing?

    2. Re:Thank god they didn't drag gender or race by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know, why don't you tell us? After all, you're the one who opined above that Arkansas requiring all its high schools to offer a coding class represented the state chasing some sort of "novel fad trend."

      I would think if you saw Computer Science classes in High Schools as some sort of routine thing that should be available to students, you would have simply said, "Hey, it's great that Arkansas is doing this, now every school should do this so that all the kids who are interested in programming can learn if they want to!"

      So... why do you see it as a radical new thing?

    3. Re:Thank god they didn't drag gender or race by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

      Into this. I'm glad they offer computer science classes. I would have taken one in high school if it was offered.

      Indeed. Which I'm a bit flabbergasted to read "1 in 10" schools don't offer CS classes? On first read I thought that couldn't possibly be correct.

      I was in high school 1986-1990, and we had a computer science class. Hell, we had Apple IIs in junior high, and we moved things around on the CRT using Logo programmong! Mind you, in high school we were instructed in BASIC and, of all things, Hypercard.. heh. Well we used Macintoshes.. IIe I think. But the class was there and it was a start for me.

  5. Coding? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 3, Informative

    In germany Computer Science is a topic in "high school" since 30 years.

    Actually I belonged to the first class in my federate state who took it.

    Or do you mean with "mandatory" that it is mandatory for pupils? If so: that is retarded.

    --
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    1. Re:Coding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In germany Computer Science is a topic in "high school" since 30 years.

      Actually I belonged to the first class in my federate state who took it.

      Or do you mean with "mandatory" that it is mandatory for pupils? If so: that is retarded.

      We had computer science classes 45 years ago in back woods Ontario. One of the students wrote a load and go fortran compiler. He decided to take stats at the University of Waterloo. He was done with programming:)

    2. Re:Coding? by tompaulco · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the USA, programming was also taught in schools 30 years ago. Now, however, they teach "Computers" instead of programming. As far as I can tell, "Computers" means how to surf the internet and burn illegal copies of games and music. After having gotten an "A" in computers, my stepson had to ask me what a good program would be to use if he wanted to write an essay.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    3. Re:Coding? by readin · · Score: 1

      I found this pretty frustrating when my kids took a computer course and found it basically consisted of learning to use Microsoft Office. No bytes, bits, binary calculations, parts of a computer (input, output, processing, RAM, etc.). In my mind the only useful part of the class was that they got a chance to practice keyboarding.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  6. Coding is not the solution ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... when the problem is corporate greed that supports CEOs and shareholders.

    The middle class is collapsing and it's in a panic. They know where the money is going and they want to prepare their kids so they will be able to play on that turf.

    There's no money in coding and, only a tiny percentage of kids have a natural aptitude for it.

    The money grab supported by Congress, PACs, Big Business, and SCOTUS has reached a critical mass where there are two layers to American society:

    1.) The haves
    3.) The have-nots

    There are no realistic cures, either ... certainly not teaching children to code.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Actually, if you are lucky, talented and well-educated in CS, there is money on coding. Most people will never get there though and will just make it harder for those talented few to do so. In the end, everybody loses, as bad software is a massive drain on the economy.

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    2. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      so much THIS!

      we can continue to ignore the current class warfare (war on middle class) but 'educating' kids in a field that is being given away exclusively to foreigners (there is a trend and it shows no signs of slowing down) is doing more harm than good.

      we have to have an honest talk in this country and decide what we want to do. do we care for our own people and encourage the middle class to rebuild itself? or do we take the republican view of 'I got mine, fark you!' and the have's continue to own the land and the have-nots continue to sink lower and lower in the system?

      if we want the 'I got mine, fark you!' world, then lets admit it and we can adjust accordingly. everyone should then go to school for 'business admin' and be able to manage the overseas 'talent'. but lets be clear; if we are going to be a land of 'managers', we will sink into being less than a first or even 2nd world country. once we lose our tech edge, it will probably be taken over by other countries and that will be the end of our tech leadership, world-wide.

      do we want to be a country of managers or do we want to take-back our country and keep our own thinking people employed?

      we need to discuss this. but the dialog does not ever happen. why? the ceo's don't want to shine light on their evil little plans....

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by itzly · · Score: 1

      we need to discuss this. but the dialog does not ever happen. why? the ceo's don't want to shine light on their evil little plans....

      The problem isn't just the CEOs. It's also the kids that have lost interest in education. Why should they ? They have pizza, computer games, cool shoes, and a parent that drives them everywhere.

    4. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most people will never get there though and will just make it harder for those talented few to do so. In the end, everybody loses, as bad software is a massive drain on the economy.

      And what area are you talking about?

      If you're talking about say, a kick-ass graphics engine, then I agree that it takes quite a bit of talent - well beyond mine.

      Writing a business application on a Microsoft stack - C#.NET or something? That takes only average programming skills - business school programming skills (CIS) - and when I see companies demanding graphics engine talent for those jobs, I just wonder what their issue is. See, a person with the talent to write graphics engine type of stuff will be bored shitless in a C#.NET environment and will probably be gone in a few months. The CIS guy will find the work interesting, challenging and would most likely stick around - for less money than the rockstar programmer. Years ago I worked for a company that recruited from a trade school that offered two year program in programming. That company was quite successful, never had a problem getting qualified people and when folks left - they usually did because this company paid shit - they got another qualified person in a matter of weeks and got them up to speed.

      The thing that I find horribly annoying in this industry are the folks who think they're rockstar developers but are no better than me. Unfortunately, too many of those folks make the hiring decisions. And their metric for telling who is worthless and who isn't is based on arbitrary standards that have very little to do with the job at hand. Being grilled on compiler design for a C#.NET job when the company doesn't use a custom compiler or even hand optimize code is just pointless. I really think much of the hiring process these days isn't so much finding qualified candidates as it is for some people to express the chip on their shoulder - and then bitch how they can't find qualified candidates.

    5. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Most business application code sucks badly. I am currently in the process of cleaning up after some Java hacks that cannot even read a requirements document. Sure, the code works, but it is slow, unreliable and has some security issues so massive that they would pull it from production if they could. That is what "average" programming skills produce: Software of negative worth, because it prevented something reasonable from being implemented.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

      All schools should be offering this as a mandatory program because of that tiny percentage with the real aptitude. If you don't expose the kids to the concepts and let the kids discover whether they do have the aptitude, you will only get a percentage of that tiny percentage self-adopting programming.

      If only one out of ten schools offers the opportunity, and I'll hazard a guess that most of the nine that don't offer it service poorer areas, then you're definitely got kids who have the mental mindset, but do not have the exposure. It may sound cliche, but if you can double the tiny percentage...

      Non-statistically valid statistic. If my school didn't have teachers interested in computer programming in the 80s and 90s, I would not have discovered my vocation in time to do anything about it.

      --
      Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
    7. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by mlookaba · · Score: 1

      "... when the problem is corporate greed that supports CEOs and shareholders."

      We should pass a law immediately that limits the rate of return on investments.

      Surely that could only have a positive impact on our culture, right?

    8. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      By your logic, every kid should be exposed to rigorous math, the violin, pharmaceutical sales, Christian evangelism ...

      Why choose coding?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    9. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      You just described kids as "consumers."

      Who collects from consumers?

      CEOs and shareholders.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    10. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by Sebastopol · · Score: 1

      "only a tiny percentage of kids have a natural aptitude for it."

      You have it completely backwards: coding is like playing the guitar: nearly anyone can do it to a satisfactory level.

      --
      https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    11. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Mediocrity won't get you any gigs.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    12. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

      We already expose them to enough math to trigger those who have the aptitude. As for your other examples, by the Gods, those are absolute evils, especially the violin.

      Joking aside, why not give them a similar level of exposure to the concepts of programming as we already to for math? It certainly beats some of the soft crap like "Life Skills" that gets pushed into the curricula.

      --
      Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
    13. Re:Coding is not the solution ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Granting that students have been exposed to math, let's now take advantage of the research tools at hand and contemplate how well Arkansas is doing in math, shall we?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  7. Hillbilly Hare in Java by retroworks · · Score: 1
    Looking forward to squaredance instructions in public boolean http://www.ebaumsworld.com/vid...

    "whop him low and whop him high, stick your finger in his eye, kick him in the shin, hit him in the head, hit him again if the critter ain't dead"

    (I grew up in northwest Arkansas and am allowed to make this joke /= trolling)

    --
    Gently reply
    1. Re:Hillbilly Hare in Java by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Looking forward to squaredance instructions in public boolean
      http://www.ebaumsworld.com/vid...

      Hey .. I have Mr. Bunny's Guide to ActiveX and it actually was an informative book. I seriously learnt a lot about Active X and the Windows Registry when I first read it.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
  8. Good for them, I guess? by jhains · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what the big deal is. Between 1985 and 1989 in Louisiana public schools I took Apple BASIC and Pascal. While the programming courses were not required, they were available, and still are, though more current. The only required course at that time was the "Introduction to Computers / Computer History" which included some very basic BASIC programming. It seems to me that this kind of rule should be the responsibility of the school board, not the legislature.

    --
    sig sig sputnik?
  9. CS != Programming by gweihir · · Score: 2

    A programming course can get you (maybe) a low-end, low-wage, no-future job, but that is it. Real CS skills are something else entirely.

    We already have far too many bad coders, and far to many people that could be good at it not entering the field in the first place due to that and the low-wages, bad work environments and lacking career options that causes. Really, programming well is something that needs a lot of talent, skill and education. And we urgently need to restrict professional programming to those that have all that. Everything else is wasting a tremendous amount of time and money, due to multiplication effects inherent to software.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:CS != Programming by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Any high school class is not intended to establish a career. It is intended to begin you down a track of learning which will be rounded out in college and polished to a fine hone during your first job.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:CS != Programming by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

      30k would put you in the middle class here in AR. The cost of living here is low enough that your idea of a "low-wage, no-future" job is more than enough for the average Arkansan. I believe Arkansas is in a good position to be the place to "in-source" software and technology labor here in America. India's on the other side of the planet and there's a language and culture barrier. Send your work here please; you won't have any trouble understanding us, we're in a timezone you can tolerate, and we don't have an unintelligible accent.

      Bonus: your customers won't give you grief for it like they do when you send labor overseas.

    3. Re:CS != Programming by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Hey, I had to start at the bottom and work my way up. It's a lot easier to grok CS when you can code up a few functions in some language.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    4. Re: CS != Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is that these are two separate jobs that should be done by separate people. Computer Science (theory) people are the one who develop architecture or new paradigms or languages. Once these new things exist, it's programmers who make them useful.

      It's a symbiosis, not a competition.

    5. Re:CS != Programming by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      School is there to give you a foundation (logical thinking) and an opportunity to try different things do you can decide to study them in depth later. Few people will go into programming jobs out of school, they will study it at a higher level first.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:CS != Programming by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Most programmers don't need computer science: when was the last time you really cared about the difference between a 2-3 tree and a red-black tree?

    7. Re:CS != Programming by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Urgh, 30k being in the middle is pretty bad. In that case, this may actually be a reasonable option. I agree on the benefits re-onshoring. Sure, low-end workers suck all over the world, but the way they suck is different and if you are from the same culture, you actually understand how to still get reasonable productivity from them.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:CS != Programming by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, CS people that cannot code (which are rampart, especially in the IT security field), are a real problem. I like to compare them to an MD that cannot put on a band-aid. Still, the CS education on top is needed in order to get actual understanding.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:CS != Programming by gweihir · · Score: 1

      The OP called it "CS", which it is not. That is my complaint. Also, misrepresenting CS is a disservice to people, as they will not have a rational basis to decide on whether they want to go into CS or not.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re:CS != Programming by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Come to think of it, just recently. (It was AVL vs. red-black though. I went with AVL, despite that being generally discouraged because of code complexity.) When you do advanced stuff, this knowledge and the skills and insights that come with it are make-or-beak. And I should point out that still about 70% of IT projects fail (where "fail" is budget overrun > 2x or not completing the project at all; in many other the results underperform to a serious degree).

      The problem is that most programmers are producing code that is creating much less value than it could create or that is outright destroying value due to bugs, insecurity and inefficiency. And that is ignoring function and UI design.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:CS != Programming by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but as a counter example, I never received any formal CS training and I'm a senior engineer at my company (SW architecture actually). Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but I do feel that I have the respect of hundreds of my coworkers and that I provide a valuable technical contribution to my company. (a fabless silicon vendor)
      But that said, I read CS papers voraciously, and dig in deep in a few of the CS topics that interest me. (operating systems & concurrency)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    12. Re:CS != Programming by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

      TBH, I can't really say how much a programmer makes here. I'm not a programmer by trade (though I do a little programming in my job anyway). I just know they make a lot less here than they would in say... Silicon Valley. If I were to guess, entry level may be at $40-50k. Solidly Middle Class for Arkansas.

      A friend of mine handles databases and writes in Oracle SQL or whatever they call it, and I think he makes 80k. That's a university job, so I'm not sure if that's a little higher or a little lower than usual. Also, he's been there a while.

  10. Umm... by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you're lucky, talented and well educated there's money in just about _anything_.

    At any rate I'm sure there's money in programming, because we wouldn't have so many businessman pushing people into it otherwise. If you see an education push into a field you can pretty much bet the reason is that somebody is tired of having to pay decent wages. The rich get supply and demand. I wish the working class did...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Umm... by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      You could train you know? Oh, and give raises that not only keep pace with inflation but also actually result in a higher standard of living. Every company I know with hiring problems (there are many) is either paying less or they're a dead end. You might get good pay when you start but then the only promotions come with tiny raises and huge increases of responsibility...

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  11. Exposure is good, but... by Livius · · Score: 2

    Programming, for good or bad, is essential in the 21st century world. Students should be exposed to it, and learn a little bit about what it is, both to make a (slightly better) informed decision about careers and to have some appreciation of the role of coders in the economy.

    But there seem to be a lot of people that think a student can take one high school course and have a guaranteed high-income career as a coder. This reveals a great ignorance and condescension on the part of the adults - I very much doubt if any of them also expect a high school law course or biology course will guarantee a successful career as a lawyer or doctor.

    1. Re:Exposure is good, but... by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      The two are closely related. I consider one to be an activity and the other a professional job. But unsurprisingly, I do program frequently when I'm working as a SW Engineer.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  12. One Little Problem: Only 20 CS Teachers in AR by theodp · · Score: 1

    So, Arkansas Is Leading the Learn to Code Movement: "Currently, he [AR Governor Asa Hutchinson] says only about 20 teachers in the entire state are âoeproperly preparedâ to teach these new courses..."

    1. Re:One Little Problem: Only 20 CS Teachers in AR by dbIII · · Score: 1

      So? The twenty write the course and some math teachers look at it and probably find that apart from a bit of paper they are qualified to teach it as well, or at least they now understand it enough to teach it plus a bit more.

  13. Re:a little late to the game.. by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

    I went to public school in Arkansas in the 80's/early 90's. Learned BASIC on TRS-80, Apple ][e, and IBM PS/2s. We had them then too.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  14. Re:Don't!!!! by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

    It's not always clear where a student's strength lies. They don't always even know what they like themselves; some students get turned on to subjects they previously would never have considered. Lastly, there's value in learning a little bit of everything. The real question is how much time should be spent on building a broad education (as opposed to a narrow specialized one)?

    I do agree that the education system is in need of an overhaul... But I don't think that the curriculum should be all that different; it's more about how and when we teach those subjects. For example, why determine a good deal of the pacing and content of one's education on *age* of all things?

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  15. Re:1 in 10? That's surprising by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    That is not surprising. Back then, probably almost every high school offered a programming course. However, since then they have removed the programming course in favor of the more generic "computers" course, which teaches nothing but web surfing and how to burn illegal copies of games and music.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  16. Re:Arkansas by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    I'm an Arkansas programmer. I don't actually live there, but I work for a company in Arkansas. They had to outsource to Oklahoma to get me.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  17. Re:Arkansas by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure why you're down-voted. That's the idea I believe Asa is trying to capitalize on. We'd cost more than India, but we're in a closer time zone and speak your language. You can even fly in for meetings and such without suffering extreme jet lag or cost. There's a lot of untapped creative potential here too. I believe AR has a future in tech, but we have to work for it.

  18. Re:Don't!!!! by Skidborg · · Score: 1

    Nobody is being forced to take this class. Schools are just being forced to offer it.

    --
    Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
  19. Worked for me by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    My High School offered BASIC and Pascal in the 1990s, and I found it tremendously helpful. I'm a Software Engineer today, and I doubt if I would have gone in this career direction if it wasn't for the classes and mentor I found at my high school.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  20. I hate this word, coding by twistedcubic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Saying "coding" instead of "programming" is like saying "ciphering" instead of "mathematics". Please stop. Imaging the headline, "Arkansas is now the first state to require that high schools teach ciphering". I'm not a computer programmer, but I think you guys are disrespecting your discipline by encouraging the word "coding".

    1. Re:I hate this word, coding by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      No, I think it's apt. "Programming" (ideally) involves the discipline of being able to plan out how to approach a problem, testing, best practices, etc. "Coding" is just hacking away until something seems to work and then moving on to the next thing. We use the term "code monkey", as in "a million monkeys with a million typewriters" saying, but the term isn't apropos in layman circles, so "coder" and "coding" suffices.

      95%+ of the kids that come out of these classes will not be budding programmers. A good programming class will include the basics of planning/bug catching, but most students will be "coders" at best.

  21. What do you do when all the blacks fail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And all the Mexicans? LOL.

  22. Re:Don't!!!! by Jartan · · Score: 1

    Even the first line of the summary says "offer classes". Nobody is being forced.

  23. Re:is this for real? by readin · · Score: 1

    "Presently, only one in 10 schools nationwide offer computer science classes."

    From 1992-1996 I went to a tiny high school in the middle of nowhere surrounded by corn fields, and even I had 4 computer programming courses - granted only like 5-6 kids were in the 4th class, they almost canceled it on us.

    Maybe they teach programming and computers in the Midwest but not elsewhere?

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  24. Having to move by tepples · · Score: 1

    while you may have to move away from Arkansas to where the jobs are

    Which is why high schools need to start teaching home economics again. If people have to move away from parents before finding work, they'll need to learn to live on their own. And even then, where should a student fresh out of school find the cash to support himself during a move and job search?

    1. Re:Having to move by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, when a state school didn't come with a crushing debt burden, it was much less of an issue (compared to even 10 years ago it's nuts). My own solutions was to get that first job in my home city, paying peanuts, then once I had enough experience to be credible, move away. That first job wasn't so hard to get because everyone else was doing the same thing, so they were constantly hiring.

      With you on the home economics. I was such a moron with money for almost the first 10 years.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Having to move by tepples · · Score: 1

      My own solutions was to get that first job in my home city

      Which is difficult if nobody's advertising entry-level positions for recent graduates in your home city, as was my case. Or by "first job [...] paying peanuts" did you actually mean a minimum wage service job such as food service or retail?

  25. Buses do not run at night or on Sundays by tepples · · Score: 1

    [Kids these days] have pizza, computer games, cool shoes, and a parent that drives them everywhere.

    Without a parent to drive them, how else are they supposed to get anywhere? A lot of places have pitiful public transport or none at all.

  26. Fine, I'll say it by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    You need an IQ well above 100 to code well. 100 is average. That means don't teach coding to everyone. All they're doing is making people think they're good enough to get a really high paying job and then if they somehow succeed, you get awful programs as the result.

  27. Re:Arkansas by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    Well, I can't say for sure because I am actually from Oklahoma and my company has not been trying to hire anyone other than me yet. However, my estimation is that there are a small number of both IT professionals and IT jobs and that any disruption to the static state of either probably takes a long time to fill the void.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  28. Re: Its just common sense by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

    Agreed. I'm doubting that statistic of only 1 in 10 schools having such courses.

    Me too. Could it be 1 in 10 of *all* schools, including elementary? It's gotta be. But it seems as if computer classes are way watered down from when I was a kid, if others' comments are to be believed.

  29. Re:a little late to the game.. by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

    I went to public school in Arkansas in the 80's/early 90's. Learned BASIC on TRS-80, Apple ][e, and IBM PS/2s. We had them then too.

    I said the same thing a few minutes ago. Didn't read all comments first. And I forgot to mention my TRS! Writing BASIC and saving code on a cassette tape.. what a thrill that was. Until one had to read it back into the computer.

    A fond memory, and I wish I still had the BASIC code, I programmed a Star Trek "simulator" in BASIC, complete with big red photon torpedo pixels. I put simulator in quotes because there was no way to code in user input, via joystick or the like, so you just basically watched things get blown up by torpedoes :) Ah, the memories. Our teacher put it up on the big screen for the other students to see. It didn't land me any girlfriends though. Heh.

  30. Re:a little late to the game.. by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

    And I forgot to mention my TRS!

    First time replying to my own post, that I can remember. I typed TRS, but should have said TI-99.

  31. Part of year ten advanced math in 1980s by dbIII · · Score: 1

    A bit slow there guys. Where I live it was part of year ten advanced math in the 1980s.

  32. Not sure by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    One one hand, I am convinced school should teach basic skills and that there is a lot to improve there.

    On the other hand, I came to computing because of that the exact same kind of initiative in the 80's. The difference with today may be that it was not so obvious to have access to a computer at that time.

  33. Let's teach them about information first by XNormal · · Score: 1

    We live in a world of information. So let us teach them about information first. What is information? How has it been encoded, stored, reproduced, processed and transmitted throughout history? What is encryption? How trustworthy is a source of information? How do we assess that?

    It should definitely include some material about the concept of processing information by an algorithm. I am not sure that actual coding is really for everyone - but being literate about information definitely is.

    --
    Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
  34. Wait ... what??? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... (thanks to Arkansas native Bill Clinton's "No Child Left Behind" act ...

    The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, President George W. Bush's education-reform bill, was signed into law on Jan. 8, 2002.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:Wait ... what??? by DedTV · · Score: 1

      He signed it, but the Clinton administration wrote it. It was held up by Republicans until G.W.B. got into office. The Politics of No Child Left Behind

    2. Re:Wait ... what??? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Well, technically ... (from YOUR source):

      No Child Left Behind was the cumulative result of a standards-and-testing movement that began with the release of the report A Nation at Risk by the Reagan administration in 1983.

      And I'm quite sure the Republicans are pissed at you for desecrating Bush's legacy piece of work.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.