Slashdot Mirror


Short Circuit In LHC Could Delay Restart By Weeks

hypnosec writes: On March 21 CERN detected an intermittent short circuit to ground in one of the LHC's magnet circuits. Repairs could delay the restart by anywhere between a few days and several weeks. CERN revealed that the short circuit affected one of LHC's powerful electromagnets, thereby delaying preparations in sector 4-5 of the machine. They confirmed that seven of the machine's eight sectors have been successfully commissioned to 6.5 TeV per beam, but they won't be circulating a beam in the LHC this week. Though the short circuit issue is well understood, resolving it will take time, since it's in a cold section of the machine and repairs may therefore require warming and re-cooling.

57 comments

  1. Thanks by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1, Funny

    That's how many weeks we have more to live before being crunched in a black hole.

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    1. Re:Thanks by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      So why my own post is -1 Troll and its below neighbor that says basically the same thing is +3. Strange, I tell you.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    2. Re:Thanks by mcswell · · Score: 1

      In some universes. I hope to be in one of the universes where the LHC forgot to pay its electric bill, and gets shut down.

  2. Just great... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    Now would probably be a good time to stalk up on crowbars and prepare for unforeseen consequences, right?

    1. Re:Just great... by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you don't have a crowbar on reach at all moments, you're gambling with your own life.

    2. Re:Just great... by fisted · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm not sure. What Anomalous Materials are actually involved here, and are they delivered On A Rail for Residue Processing? I mean if not, that would be fairly Questionable, Ethics-wise.

      My, look at the time. BRB fixing the Lambda Core.

    3. Re:Just great... by jones_supa · · Score: 2

      I don't see what could go wrong. Once the fix has been done, they only have one step left, which is just a standard procedure of pushing a crystal in a cart into a beam.

    4. Re:Just great... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Now would probably be a good time to stalk up on crowbars and prepare for unforeseen consequences, right?

      Not sure what good it would do to sneak up on a crowbar (they've never been particularly alert anyway), but i stocked up my crowbar collection this past week...

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:Just great... by gman003 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Now if only someone could create a combination crowbar and towel. Keep one of those on you, and you'll be set for anything.

    6. Re:Just great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how you can.that. They've assured the Administrator that nothing can go wrong.

    7. Re:Just great... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Hang a crowbar on the wall to use as a towel rack. Patent pending.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    8. Re:Just great... by mcswell · · Score: 1

      I find crowbars are not sentient, so stalking up on them is not too difficult. Keeping a large supply of them, otoh, can be hard.

  3. It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by Bruce66423 · · Score: 2

    It doesn't want its secrets revealed ;)

    1. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by marcello_dl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The universe does not need to stop us, because from the inside of it you can never prove you have the faintest idea of the way it is implemented, even if you got to model and understand every single particle and every single interaction. Does an insulated VM run on intel or on powerpc or on a commodore 64 with a hell of a RAM expansion? no way to know from the inside of it.

      So the most rational reason becomes: they tried using systemd to speed things up but some not well documented glitch made the thing shut down. The short circuit is a scapegoat.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    2. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by fisted · · Score: 1

      The universe does not need to stop us, because from the inside of it you can never prove you have the faintest idea of the way it is implemented, even if you got to model and understand every single particle and every single interaction. Does an insulated VM run on intel or on powerpc or on a commodore 64 with a hell of a RAM expansion? no way to know from the inside of it.

      Pretty sure that with a bit of timing measurement, you could tell apart a C64 from recent Intel. Identifying other, more subtle details of the host might be more difficult, but not impossible.

      You're right in that there's no way to actually prove anything about it.

    3. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not from the inside.

      You can viewing from the outside.

      But just a quick hypotehtical.

      Say we are a computer simulation. And our timeframe progresses in very tiny finite steps. Each one of those steps is say 1 clock cycle in the machine hosting our simulation. Whether that clock cycle takes 5 years of its timeframe, or 1 second of its timeframe its still only 1 time step for us, and we would never know. Or it can run 4 at a time or 20 at a time, or hundreds because its a giant beowulf cluster of machines, the simulation could be set up so that we are not aware of it.

      Now perhaps if say they upgraded the memory and all of a sudden our universe tripled because it hold so much more and while they tried to adjust the history to mean it was always there there still could be anomalies and hints to maybe know.

      But I don't know how inside the system you could do timing measurements properly unless we got access to the direct cosmic (host system) clock to do time calculations on and do comparisons over "time".

    4. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Pretty sure that with a bit of timing measurement, you could tell apart a C64 from recent Intel.

      And don't forget System Management Mode: if the Universe seems to be unattentive for short periods of time now and then... then it's an Intel!

    5. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The universe is a fascinating thing. I mean, look at earth's surface gravity. It's about 1.03227 * lightyear / year^2 if I'm not mistaken. Then there's the whole sun/moon thing being about the same size.

    6. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No. The next thing the universe might care about is a big quantum computer. "God does not play dice" is about the idea of hidden state. Our universe appears to have certain properties which are random, but they could actually just be the results of hidden state variables. We have done experiments which rule out the simplest possibility - Local Hidden State, each particle is carrying around some state we can't access. Nope. But that still leaves two options. One is "God does play dice", the universe's seemingly random properties are random, but the other is Global Hidden State, where the state we can't access is shared across the whole universe, not carried around by individual particles.

      Some models of Global Hidden State say it'd be a finite amount. A quantum computer "borrows" hidden state to perform calculations in this model, and so if we build a sufficiently powerful computer (one that could break a 1024 bit RSA key in reasonable time would be a good example) it will "run out" of hidden state and mysteriously not work.

      Models with infinite Global Hidden State are basically the same as the "God does play dice" outcome. Quantum computers can work under those models, nothing interesting happens.

    7. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by ralphsiegler · · Score: 1

      Never actually worked on kernel and drivers? Emulators DON'T have the quirks and timing issues of real hardware, which is why one smart BSD variant always uses real hardware, while another particular one has used emulators for some of its development and so falls over on various real hardware.

    8. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      as the AC also said in his words, the timing inside the simulation is the simulated cpu time, the simulated hw clock cannot link to a real clock else the insulation is not there.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    9. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Emulators DON'T have the quirks and timing issues of real hardware

      In fact the comparison was among the host hw, not the emulated hw vs. bare metal. The code correctly implementing a full VM must run with the same results on all hardware where it has correctly been ported. I know it's theoretical because VM code gets advantage of bare metal (hw clock, RNG) but then the simulation is not perfect and it's a problem of the sim, not of the example.

      To cut it shorter, in the domain of tic tac toe games defined as the sequence of X and O placements, one game is exactly the same no matter if it was vs. man or vs. machine, or on a blackboard, or on a piece of paper, as all of such variables are metadata, not data.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    10. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure that with a bit of timing measurement, you could tell apart a C64 from recent Intel.

      Assuming the RTC isn't also emulated (and based on emulated CPU clock ticks).

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    11. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now we just need someone to code a VM escape exploit.

    12. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by ralphsiegler · · Score: 2

      You assume the makers of the universe's emulator did a perfect job. And that they designed to foil detection. Maybe they did not. Maybe they even made a way for sufficiently advanced technology to discern the difference intentionally.

    13. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by fisted · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I wasn't assuming that the VM would go out of its way to pretend to be something different.

    14. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      An insulated VM, which is what marcello_dl was talking about, wouldn't rely on a hardware RTC; if it did, it wouldn't be insulated, would it?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    15. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by fisted · · Score: 1

      In order to meaningfully emulate the RTC, the host still needs a real RTC, much like in order to emulate a CPU, the host needs a real CPU. Whether or not the host is warping the timesource for the emulated RTC or just uses the real one as its backend, i don't see how that's relevant to insulation

    16. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course a host needs a CPU in order to emulate another CPU, but it needn't be the same (or even similar) architecture (e.g. it doesn't need an x86 class CPU to emulate an x86 class CPU, though it *does* help speed things up a bit). As for the RTC, or any other hardware, well, all you need is the CPU and some clever software to emulate pretty much anything.

      We're not talking about realtime emulation where 1 second of emulated time equals 1 second of actual time, we're talking perfect (from the perspective of the application, not the user) emulation, where X emulated clock ticks equals 1 second of real time. For that, all you need to do is count clock ticks and advance the counter on your emulated RTC accordingly. You can do that on a system with no hardware RTC at all. For extra realism, emulate jitter by advancing it a handful of ticks early or late. It doesn't matter if 1 second of emulated time equals 1 year of real time (e.g. emulating a 1GHz CPU on a 33MHz CPU sharing the same instruction set and architecture, assuming ideal conditions). From inside that simulation, the application would think 1 second had passed, regardless of how much time had passed in reality.

      That's actually, by definition, how an insulated VM works. An insulated VM is in no way efficient, it's intended to be secure above all else. That means no instructions from the VM ever get passed to any physical hardware; CPU instructions run on a software virtualized CPU (no VT-x or similar technologies) or through a software translation layer and calls to any other hardware run through software that emulates said hardware; no physical hardware need exist beyond the CPU, some RAM, and the minimal hardware required to support those. How do you think an NES emulator works on a PC (or phone)? You don't honestly think that every bit of hardware that exists in an NES console also exists within every PC and phone, do you? No, they're emulated in software. All of it, right down to the CPU.

      What marcello_dl was saying, and said quite effectively for those of us who understand how emulation works, is that it is impossible, from inside an insulated system, to tell that you are in an insulated system. The biggest clue you could possibly have is timing, and when your timing device is emulated to match the speed of your processor, adding some jitter for effect, that clue doesn't exist. From there, the best you can do is find some piece of hardware that doesn't work as expected; but that's not conclusive, either, as you can't prove whether the unexpected behavior is the result of poor emulation or faulty/failing hardware. To marcello_dl's point, when you pull the trigger of a loaded gun with all safeties off, you expect a loud bang and at least one new hole in someone or something; when you don't get that, you can't prove that it was a failure of the gun or bullet and not an emulation error. That's why there are people out there who genuinely believe we live in a simulation, and I'll grant them that it's possible (though not very likely), given some things I've experienced that really don't have any explanation other than "I was really high despite not having taken any drugs" or that. It would explain why the universe appears to be growing and we appear to be able to use the same techniques we've had access to for centuries to find smaller and smaller particles (e.g. the simulation's available storage is growing, allowing it to render and present finer detail) but, then, so would a handful of other, much more likely, scenarios (e.g. the big bang).

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    17. Re:It's the universe trying to stop us innit... by mcswell · · Score: 1

      If we are a computer simulation, that might explain why it took a day to simulate the heavens and the earth, and to get past the surface of last scattering; another day to simulate the formation of elements heavier than Hydrogen and Helium via supernova, and allow the elements to cool enough to form molecular clouds; another day to simulate the formation of planets and the beginning of life; and so forth. As each stage became more complicated, the simulation was taking longer in computer time to model shorter periods of time in the simulation. Probably six days of computer time to simulate all of it. At that point the simulation had enough computing power, in the form of sentient beings, to go simulating itself, and so the computer could rest.

  4. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Shimbo · · Score: 2

    If your car won't start, how can you prove that any other places in the world exist?

  5. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if my car has a short-circuit or other flaw that prevents me from going as fast as it could, so I conclude that all engines everywhere are underpowered?

  6. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Thanshin · · Score: 2

    I don't think works as you think it does.

    If you point your goggles to a spot and see a lion eating a gazelle, finding afterwards that your goggles had a dent won't make you doubt of the existence of that lion.

    Or, in other words, short circuits don't conjure results that coincide with decades of theory.

  7. Nooo... by beebware · · Score: 1

    Nooo stop work on LHC Stephanie. Stephanie reassemble?

    1. Re:Nooo... by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Who is Stéphanie?? Pretty?

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    2. Re:Nooo... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stephanie Speck is Johnny Five's friend. I hear she is "Attractive" and has "nice software" so I assume that means she's pretty.

    3. Re:Nooo... by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Oh ok http://www.imdb.com/character/... where is the CERN in this???

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  8. Post-LS1 Powering Tests Campaign by jcdr · · Score: 2
  9. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by amoeba1911 · · Score: 2

    No, that just means you bought a GM car.

  10. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "short circuits don't conjure results that coincide with decades of theory."

    They easily can if you use a "null" hypothesis, and take any non-null result as coinciding with your theory.

  11. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Thanshin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Experiment result : "A squirrel fell on the azidoazide azide magnetic container, leveling the lab and leaving a 23 feet deep crater where the Dean's office used to be."

    Conclusion : "Higgs Boson!"

  12. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't they also generate so much data they had to filter it to only look at promising results? That would make it harder to notice any artifacts even if they were only looking in a narrower range.

    There is a reason why rejecting the null hypothesis is the favorite pastime of all those fields that can only replicate 1-20% of the findings. Any time you mess up the experiment, the null is false and you get "results".

  13. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have no idea if it is an issue in this case. I could imagine that they expected a certain signal at each energy level and some malfunction could result in recording the incorrect energy level. Result: Signal in the range you expect due to artifact.

    Is that a possibility here?

  14. Sun and moon the same size by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You realize that the sun/moon size thing is just a temporary condition, right? The moon's been receding from Earth and will continue to do so, so in a few hundred million years it'll be noticeably smaller than the sun and we will have no more total solar eclipses.

    And the dinosaurs probably got to enjoy more eclipses because the moon was closer then.

    Given that, it's hard for me to read anything into the sun/moon size thing other than that it's a coincidence.

    --PM

    1. Re:Sun and moon the same size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you happen to know the exact ratio for the sun and Moon? The diameter comparison and the distance comparison? 401 / 389 is a bit too far off. But 401 / 388 overshoots it. Although, to bring comparison to the other planets makes things much more complicated.

    2. Re:Sun and moon the same size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's not a good justification for calling it a coincidence, I DO call it a coincidence because it is not an univocally interpretable sign (what does it show, dualism? dualism is not the signature of monotheistic ones) and because coincidences that don't happened are not registered.

      While the fact that it is a temporary condition is not much relevant because on those time scales the history of man is even more temporary, and a hypothetical guy outside time can make things happen wherever and whenever, even without interfering with free will.

  15. Actually there are certain tests by Celarent+Darii · · Score: 1

    There are actually certain physical phenomenon that would confirm that we are in a simulation, just from the mathematical constraints.

    Here is a link to the actual paper.

    1. Re:Actually there are certain tests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That paper talks about rigid lattices. That is not how it works. The simulation is QM in action. It's probability based. It more closely resembles water or gas than a lattice and the constraints are in line with the uncertainty principle instead of some absolute fixed lattice points.

    2. Re:Actually there are certain tests by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      Simulations are inspired by the way the universe behaves.
      If you discover that the universe can be implemented in the same ways a simulation is, you have simply done a kind of circular reasoning. Reality looks like a simulation that looks like reality.

      Not to detract from studies (captcha: proceed), It is very interesting to model how the universe MIGHT be implemented, but the ultimate implementation, or whether the concept of implementation has any meaning applied to the universe as an object, are theoretically and practically beyond our reach.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
  16. I'm Betting ... by Toad-san · · Score: 1

    Something dropped out of someone's pocket.

    This would never happen if they forbade pockets, you know.

  17. Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this is the only startup failure of the LHC after such a massive upgrade, that is indeed a miracle! My hat is off to the boffins at Cern, Fermi Lab, and all the other collaborators on this project. Disclaimer: my wife is a staff physicist at Fermi National Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois. They have done a lot of the work on the superconducting magnets used on the LHC project.

  18. This is why by The+Eight-Bit+Link · · Score: 2

    you double-check that you don't have solder bridges. Use only what you need, and make sure those joints are bright and shiny!

  19. Pippin said it best by Barlo_Mung_42 · · Score: 2

    Short cuts make long delays.

  20. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should maybe look into how calculations and data analysis are actually done in experimental particle physics. They tend to have some of the best, most rigid use of statistics, unlike a lot of medical research.

    In particular, while there are filters on what data gets stored, there are also a large amount of data allowed to randomly bypass the filters to check the filters are working as expected and that there is not some bias or missed data. Also, analysis is pretty good about avoiding issues with fishing for "results" by only running initial tests on a small subset of data to confirm it works, then, after much thought, collaboration, and double checking, allowing an analysis to be performed on the full data set.

  21. Re:How do we know the Higgs was really discovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You should maybe look into how calculations and data analysis are actually done in experimental particle physics"

    I would be very interested. Any papers, or even blogs, discussing this in detail?

  22. Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another fucking crow with a baguette?