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UK Forces Microsoft To Adopt Open Document Standards

First time accepted submitter Barsteward writes Microsoft has confirmed it will start supporting the Open Documents Format (ODF) in the next update to Office 365, following a lengthy battle against the UK government. In 2014, Microsoft went against the government's request to support ODF, claiming its own XML format was more heavily adopted. The UK government refutes the claim, stating that ODF allows users to not be boxed into one ecosystem.

17 of 178 comments (clear)

  1. My God! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Funny

    Who are you and what have you done with the UK government?

    They were (a) right, (b) stuck to their guns and (c) have a technical solution which didn't simply involve shovelling heaps of money at microsoft in exchange for a brutal lock in. Very out of character, not that I'm complaining!

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    1. Re:My God! by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Funny

      I also seem to recall that Microsoft caving in to a government was one of the signs of the apocalypse.

    2. Re:My God! by jklovanc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Microsoft has caved many times. Remember the browser wars and unbundling IE?

    3. Re:My God! by dominux · · Score: 4, Interesting

      it is a result of quite a few years of lobbying by organisations such as Open Forum Europe and internal pressure from certain folk within the civil service. The government is reasonably receptive to well made arguments. They have a big love-hate thing going on with Microsoft. They know they are being screwed over by an American company that doesn't pay it's full share of UK taxes, so they like to kick back a bit now and then.

    4. Re:My God! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is still there.

      Only the top level "application" got removed. The actual application is in the DLLs that are still on disk.

      Windows won't run if you actually did delete it.

    5. Re:My God! by gbjbaanb · · Score: 3, Informative

      one of the dlls is mshtml.dll and I know several applications that use it - anything that has an embedded browser for example, MS Money is one that uses a browser control as its entire display surface.

      The other is ShDocVw,dll which is a browser control - Explorer uses this.

      https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-...

    6. Re:My God! by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IMO File formats are not the real problem. Microsoft's binary word processor and spreadsheet formats were reverse engineered years ago and have been pretty stable since 2000. OOXML is XML based and even has some documentation available on how to read it.

      The real problem is that office documents blur the line between input and output and this makes them fundamentally fragile. An office document is input to a layout (in the case of a word processor) or calculation (in the case of a spreadsheet) engine but the user always looks at the output of that engine. Especially with word processors since the user is always looking at the output they aren't thinking about the structure of the input, they just bash things arround (holding down the space bar or enter key for example or dragging boxes around with no idea if their position is text-relative or page-relative)

      So I don't think this will solve anything, even if MS implements ODF and even if the UK government gets it's employees to start using it as their main format for storing files (good luck) I would expect loading a document from office into libreoffice to still have similar results to today. The input (text typed, pictures included, user-specified values in spreadsheet cells) will probablly carry across fine but in some cases it will result in noticably different output (different and possiblly unreadable layout for word processed documents, different rounding of results for spreadsheets). Especially for large badly structure docuements.

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  2. Cue ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    10% effort into actually implementing this, and
    90% effort into examination how to creatively misunderstand OPF, extend ODF with "open" binary extensions, denigrate users of ODF, or just plain break ODF

    Or maybe it's 1% vs 99%, I don't know.

  3. MS is still hostile to open formats by Burz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And that makes them hostile to open software in my book. They insist on treating Linux-formatted disks as essentially blank and have Windows tell the user the volume must be formatted to be used; fixing this would be simple in the extreme and would not even require an ability to read an Ext* volume. They stonewall AV formats like Vorbis when they could be added easily to existing apps. Really, the list goes on. The place where they have capitulated is formats that are intrinsic to the web (while parading their proprietary stuff as "open" hoping enough people will take the bait).

    MS still promotes lock-in. And from what I gather even their new .NET licensing terms are designed to leave you on the hook.

    1. Re: MS is still hostile to open formats by cmurf · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the partition type is set to Linux, Windows won't offer to format it. Problem is the common parted tool wrongly uses the Microsoft partition type GUID, thinking it was a generic "basic data" type rather than a Microsoft specific one. Windows assumes such partitions aren't properly formatted if it can't read them. Patches took forever to be merged upstream and another forever for downstream distros to use. It's still being done wrong today. OS X will only ignore unrecognized partition type codes on disks containing recognized ones. Otherwise it too actively encourages the user to format, of course resulting in data loss.

    2. Re:MS is still hostile to open formats by ljw1004 · · Score: 4, Informative

      And from what I gather even their new .NET licensing terms are designed to leave you on the hook.

      Chinese whispers...

      (1) Microsoft adopts MIT license for .NET, a perfectly standard OSS license. Many people leave it at this, but MS additionally makes a "patent promise".

      (2) Blog site reads the patent promise, notes that for most use of the .NET OSS you're covered by the patent promise, but there's apparently one particular case (where you write your own alternative .NET runtime/fx that's incomplete) that doesn't appear to be covered by the patent promise.

      (3) Slashdot summary makes the leap to say that MS is "undecided about suing" users of its OSS.

      (4) Burz makes the leap to say that this is actually "designed to leave you on the hook".

      There are quite a few unjustified leaps in there. Burz, I wonder if you'd say the same about all OSS software that's licensed under MIT or BSD but which lacks a patent promise? Because such software would be in an even weaker state from your perspective than Microsoft's OSS .NET.

      (disclaimer: I do work for Microsoft, and I did generate some patents for them, and I'm an engineer not a lawyer).

  4. Quit Being Cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ditch the Mac, use Windows and buy Office like all the normal people.
     
    Why are you troubling the people at Microsoft with the self-imposed problems you have created for yourself just because you are trying to be "different"?
     
    You decided to be "different" and but you keep depending on others to fix your problems now that things have gone south. At what point are you going to be a positive member contributing back to society instead of siphoning resources away from the productive members of society?

  5. Lotus by cmurf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft remembers how they took over Lotus' market share for spreadsheets. Lotus had no obscurity with their file format. Excel could read and write it perfectly. Open formats means the product must be as good or better for the price or users can jump ship. Closed formats are a buffer for mistakes or resting on laurels.

    1. Re:Lotus by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Excel also succeeded because it had no format lock-in. Because it could WRITE Lotus 1-2-3 just as well as it read it, there was no risk to using Excel and finding that it didn't perform as well as Lotus.

      Lotus was the incumbent at the time. 1-2-3 was the killer app that drove adoption of the PC. Yes, Excel worked in pretty graphics mode. Yes, Excel was better than 1-2-3. But you've seen management clinging like limpets to older solutions to things just because of their elevated perception of risk. If Excel hadn't been able to read 1-2-3 files perfectly, it would never have happened.

      It's exactly the same reason why people won't migrate from MS Office to LibreOffice - because it's not entirely compatible, and everyone else uses it. It's all but impossible to make an entirely compatible program though - because even the MOO-XML formats are just a serialization of binary structs and even *puke* Windows API calls. Office isn't a standalone program - it only works on Windows.

  6. Re:That makes sense by ledow · · Score: 5, Informative

    Have you seen OOXML?

    The reason they had to fork is because the format is SO binary and tied into the old legacy codebase that - even masquerading behind an XML front - there's no illusion of portability whatsoever.

    They were forced to document it, by the EU, and all they did was describe every hack, binary fudge and kludge that went into it so that it was almost impossible to make a compatible format.

    When you're talking Office on Mac, it's not a question of just adding Mac UI code and incorporating another platform into the build process. It's replicating all those stupid bit-wise assumptions made throughout the format. It's like WMF used to be - literally just a description of the Windows GDI commands required to replicate the object on the screen (which is why WMFs were capable of containing executable code!). That's pretty much the best analogue to something like MS's "open" XML formats.

    I'm not surprised that the Mac versions are staggered by several years and not entirely compatible. That's how long it takes to emulate the Windows-specific fudges in the format.

    What MS are scared of is a format that works across all platforms because, then, what's to say you'll bother to buy Office?

  7. Re:Why we use office by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One thing that MS does for some buyers (this is certainly true for universities, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true for other large organisations)is give them deeply discounted subscription licenses where the pricing model for those deeply discounted licenses is not based on the number of installations but on some measure of the size of the organisation as a whole.

    From the point of view of the customer this initially looks like a great deal. As well as saving money on the licenses themselves they are freed from the need to track installations saving lots of money in license management and auditing. It's subscription based so they pay at a constant rate rather than bursts whenever a new version comes out making budgets easy to manage.

    However once the customer is in such an arrangement they lose most of the incentive to reduce the use of the software or use cheaper/free alternatives. They would have to massively reduce their use of the software in question before buying and auditing individual licenses would be cheaper than the subscription. During the transition period of said massive reduciont they would be paying for internal auditing and accounting that would not deliver any benefit or serve any external purpose until the process was complete.

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  8. Re:Microsoft is EVIL! by tehcyder · · Score: 4, Funny

    My experience and opinion: Microsoft is the most EVIL software company.

    Wow, that's a pretty bold statement to make here on slashdot. If you're really brave, you could say you quite like Star Wars.

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