EFF Fighting Automakers Over Whether You Own Your Car

An anonymous reader writes: The Digital Millennium Copyright Act contains anti-circumvention prohibitions that affect everything from music files to cell phones. The EFF noticed that it could apply to cars as well, so they asked for an exemption to be put in place so car owners would be free to inspect and modify the code running on their vehicles. It turns out U.S. automakers don't agree — they filed opposition comments through trade associations. "They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right. They say you shouldn't be allowed to modify the code in your car because you might defraud a used car purchaser by changing the mileage. They say no one should be allowed to even look at the code without the manufacturer's permission because letting the public learn how cars work could help malicious hackers, "third-party software developers" (the horror!), and competitors. John Deere even argued that letting people modify car computer systems will result in them pirating music through the on-board entertainment system, which would be one of the more convoluted ways to copy media (and the exemption process doesn't authorize copyright infringement, anyway)."

Comments

If i can't work on my car

[Anonymous Coward]

If I can't work on my car, I will not buy it. Same with my computer.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[danbob999]

Unfortunately, unlike non-Apple desktop computers, cars aren't designed to be repaired easily. They are designed to look good, so screws are hidden, custom parts are used, and even when there are standard parts (such as tires), they use so many different sizes that you will be lucky to own two cars with the same tire format.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[cygnwolf]

And you think that they auto makers aren't doing that deliberately?

Re:If i can't work on my car

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought all cars are 3D printed at home now?

Re:If i can't work on my car

[Anonymous Coward]

Snort, ROFLMFAO. You can still do a lot of things to them. I just had to explain how to adjust idle mixture on cars with an EFI airflow meter, yes it's adjustable but factory sealed and takes less than 60 seconds to remove. Tires? Screw what the sticker on the doorjamb says, change the size and pressure as you see fit, as long as it doesn't have ABS, in which case you're screwed unless you have the dealer program the new tire size in the ABS computer. Some cars you can hook up a laptop and tune away, some need tuner boxes, some can't.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[mi]

And you think that they auto makers aren't doing that deliberately?

No, they don't do it deliberately.

But they deliberately do not not do it either — that is, they don't care to make it easier for you to fix your car or find spare parts.

One thing, that prevents manufacturers from going completely bonkers with a design, is the cost of insurance — if a model is too hard (read "expensive") to fix, your insurance will rise, and smarter consumers — whether they do the repairs themselves or not — take it into consideration before buying. But, being able to do repairs — hardware or software — just is not a factor to most people. Or else Apple's products would never have reached the popularity they now enjoy.

And also, going bonkers with a design is what many people want — Corollas, for example, are very easy to repair (or were 10 years ago). They are still a great model, but I like my Quattro better :)

Re:If i can't work on my car

[hawguy]

If I can't work on my car, I will not buy it. Same with my computer.

The problem is that people like you who want to work on their car are becoming more and more rare -- most people just want their car to be reliable and if it breaks, take it to the garage. Few consumers want to open the hood and fix something -- myself included.. at one time I did all of my own oil changes, tuneups (back when a tuneup meant replacing points, condenser and rotor), brake pad changes, etc. But I won't touch a modern car, I'd rather just take it to the garage when it breaks (which is rarely with most cars, my VW is 4 years old and the only maintenance it has had in all of that time is 4 oil changes - 10,000 miles between each).

So you may say that you'll only buy a car that you can work on, but as those cars become harder and harder to find, eventually you won't be able to buy one. I used to say I wouldn't buy a phone that is sealed and doesn't allow battery changes or have a microSD slot. Those phones are getting harder to find, even the new Galaxy S6 doesn't have an easily replaced battery or an SD slot... the last phone I bought is sealed without a battery or SD card slot.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[DrakonKyrios]

Good luck, the masses are much dumber than you.

Where does this information come from? My whole company that i work for now could do work on a car if they wanted to do the research. What kind of media brainwashing are you listening to or are you basing this on the few people you meet that are as dumb as nails. To add this whole forum includes people who could do the research and complete this, don't spread the misinformation and elitist attitude that the world is dumb, its only helping the media to segregate us.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[Sloppy]

most people just want their car to be reliable and if it breaks, take it to the garage

Then these people are in for some tough times, because whoever works at the garage, probably also isn't the copyright holder. Therefore it's going to be illegal for them to access the car too.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, it's all about cost of manufacturing. Every one of those decisions contributes to one of three goals: lowering production cost, improving fleet fuel economy, or looking good. Those are the only three things that truly matter. By the way, they have a very negative incentive to make accident repairs difficult; insurance companies penalized cars that are expensive to repair. Insurance is more expensive on German cars, in no small part, because getting parts in the US is more expensive in time/dollars than Japanese, Korean and American cars.

The manufacturing cost, for example, is why the damn throttle position sensor on my very repairable 94 F-150 is installed with Phillips screws that can't be reached without removing the throttle body assembly. That is automated, and Phillips are cheaper to automate than hex heads, so I ended up removing the throttle body to remove two screws. Simple, simple design decision, not a screw you to the guy who replaces the sensor after about double the design life of the vehicle.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[graphius]

By and large, cars are way more reliable than they were 30 years ago. Yes they were simpler to work on, but you had to work on them more. For example, it was easy to change and adjust points, now it is near impossible to adjust electronic ignition, but it lasts for the life of the car (usually)
Getting 100,000 miles on an older car was an accomplishment, now it is routine.

Re: If i can't work on my car

[Roblimo]

Two years ago traded my 1994 Jeep Cherokee in for a... 1996 Jeep Cherokee. Yes, it's fuel injected and computer-controlled, but everybody from Autozone to Hector at Segundo Auto (a traditional, highly-skilled "Mexican" mechanic from L.A.) has a reader that works on it. Can I fix my Jeep? My eyes are horrid and I'm sick and weak, but up to a point, yes. I still know how, and I still do the light stuff like tuneups and a/c recharges -- essentially annual service. Plus belts and hoses, which I routinely change because as all taxi and limo owners know, rubber is responsible for at least 80% of all road breakdowns. (check my login name - I used to own a small limo service.)

Brakes and more physical work? Hector needs to feed his kids, and he has a hoist and air tools -- and doesn't rip us off. Like when my wife went to the Hyundai dealer for a $19.95 oil change and tire rotation and they gave her a $2000 estimate for a 60,000 mile service (includes timing belt change) and Hector did all the work for $200 - not counting the timing belt kit, which includes the serpentine belt, water pump, and front main seal, that I got online for something like $120.

The day I can't fix my own car or hire someone like Hector instead of going to the dealer is the day I stop driving. Hopefully I'll be dead before things get that messed up.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[drinkypoo]

For example, it was easy to change and adjust points, now it is near impossible to adjust electronic ignition, but it lasts for the life of the car (usually)

No, you can adjust electronic ignition the same way you always have. Just degree the pickup. Usually you can just notch a part out and then install it just so. However, you really really don't want to do this, because it will make it misbehave some of the time. What you really want to do is just get a pluggable, programmable PCM. For most interesting cars you can get one for under a thousand. You can easily swap it out for smog tests if that's your thing. Then you can dial up any timing advance you want.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[drinkypoo]

Is there *really* a solid reason that one bolt has to be 14mm and the other 1/2"?

While I own a vehicle and have owned other vehicles with a mixture of SAE and metric fasteners, I have never seen one which came from the factory with two different sizes of battery terminal bolt.

I own a 1992 Ford F-250 with an International 7.3 engine. The motor is all-SAE. The chassis is a mixed bag. The cab is metric... But both battery terminals were definitely SAE.

I prefer to buy an import from a country where the engineers can count and know what metric is, like Germany or Japan. Every fastener will be metric, except spark plugs of course. Even the drain plugs will be metric if it's German. Then you just have to deal with triple squares, but hey, at least they're metric.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[Balthisar]

I happen to work for a very large car company as a manufacturing engineer. No, we don't do this deliberately, and as said below, we don't not do it deliberately, either.

Our number one goal is customer satisfaction, and if you Pareto it right, the vast majority of customers don't service their cars themselves, and have no interest in doing so. They're more satisfied with fit-and-finish, safety, economy, and features that will delight them. If it were the case that 80% of our customers valued home-serviceability more than these things, then designs would shift towards these things. It's simply not possible to make every, single part easily serviceable given the demands of the modern designs.

There's not a single powertrain engineer that says, "Hey, let's put this air intake over the number 5 cylinder so that the customer will be discouraged from changing the spark plugs himself at 160,000 km." Instead it's, "Bummer that this air intake is in the way of the number 5 cylinder, but I have to route it here because the cabin air filter, goes here, the oversized washer tank goes there, and I have to figure out how to package the rest of the components, too."

And modern cars require less service. I used to have to change the points in my VW when I was a kid, every 3000 miles if I recall correctly. These days as long as you change your oil and filter every 10,000 miles, you don't really have to do anything else. Home serviceability is still possible, if inconvenient, but it's more than offset by the larger service intervals.

For other routine, at-home-typical tasks, there's not a huge barrier versus the past. Brakes, filters, oil plug, are all nearly as simple today as they were in the past. Maybe the alternator or water pump is hard to get to, but then again, you're not replacing these every 50,000 miles like in the past, either.

Seriously?

[grimmjeeper]

They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right

They say that as if the dealers can do it right. Apparently they've never been to a dealer to get their car serviced.

Re:Seriously?

[Mashiki]

Back in 1994 my parents had a pontiac transport, the thing had been in and out of the dealer(warranty) for repairs(warm stall, cold stall, running stall, on and on). I finally had enough and asked him if I could take it to work(I was apprenticing at a local shop). It took me 10 minutes to figure out what the problem was, do the test, and tell him to take it back to the dealership. The problem? The TPS(throttle position sensor) wasn't working properly giving out of band voltage causing fuel to be cut. 10 minutes, the car had probably spent 2 weeks over a period of 5 months with them looking at it.

I've run across that several times over the years, with my old saturn under used warranty from a GM shop as well. Finding a good dealer with a competent shop is just as difficult. I've run across the same problems with friends from other companies, sometimes it seems that especially under warranty a garage will have the vehicle back in over and over again just to bill under warranty.

Re:Seriously?

[drinkypoo]

I finally had enough and asked him if I could take it to work(I was apprenticing at a local shop). It took me 10 minutes to figure out what the problem was, do the test, and tell him to take it back to the dealership. The problem? The TPS(throttle position sensor) wasn't working properly giving out of band voltage causing fuel to be cut. 10 minutes, the car had probably spent 2 weeks over a period of 5 months with them looking at it.

What's truly pathetic is that I will bet you a dollar that if you look in the factory service manual for that POS you will find the suggestion to test the TPS for problems like that. Dealers actually hire mechanics who can neither read nor follow directions.

It's a car so...

[SeaFox]

They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right.

I feel like the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is going to come into play at some point here.

I tried to raise this issue before...

[ckatko]

I tried to raise this issue before... with the Tesla auto-updating your cars firmware without asking the owner of the car first, and how that means they can literally put anything in there without your consent. (NSA GPS tracking anyone?)

Everyone was too busy going "OMG TESLA RULEZ" to care. (A great car sure, but that doesn't mean we need another Apple walled-garden.)

Re:I tried to raise this issue before...

[Gordo_1]

Hi, Tesla Model S owner here... Technically you do get asked before firmware installs proceed (download happens automatically in the background). You're free to simply not apply the update. However, and more to your point, as with any binary update mechanism, there's really no viable way to determine what's actually getting installed in the process and you would lose out on potentially important bug fixes. Not all that different from Windows Update...

My personal assumption is that the firmware is a complete privacy-invading cesspool. I love the car overall, so I'll keep it until such time as I get the first mailed speeding ticket based upon my car's GPS location and internal speed telemetry.

Re:That car behind you...

[blackest_k]

Brakes tend to be one of the easiest jobs going. Disk brakes maybe 10 minutes or so Drum brakes can take a bit longer. It is not a hard job. At least the dust is less toxic these days.
 

The Car Analogy Come to Life

[Howitzer86]

I'm glad the EFF has taken up this fight. To me there's no symbolic difference between the code controlling the digital throttle in my xB and the cable doing the same thing in my 24 year-old Tercel... except that the Tercel does it better. I'm not sure, but I think the values that represent my throttle pressure aren't as smooth as they could be, and it might be due to it not being a float value.

Wonky throttle values aren't exactly unknown to Toyotas, as Wozniak discovered with his Prius. I probably would be unable to fix this bug, but he could. It's also possible that the somewhat rough transition between super-light pressure and the notch above that is actually a developing issue with my engine (it's not that noticeable, so the nuance leads me to believe it isn't physical - or at least that it could be improved in code).

So what if I could kill someone by editing the code in my xB? I could kill someone by working on my Tercel too. The legal responsibility rests with me either way. There's no real difference except that there exists precedence for controlling what people can do with the code in their gadgets. Perhaps in some crazy parallel universe, not only could automakers argue that the code isn't yours, they could argue that the whole car isn't yours to do with as you please either. I can imagine the same kind of EULA you agree to in software being applicable to the entire vehicle, listing off all the things you can and cannot do to with "your" brand new car. If they say you must go to the dealer for all repairs, then you must do it, and in the event of tempering, they can revoke your license and take your car back from you.

It's really the car analogy come to life. I have no doubt this argument has been made before. It's just that in the past, computers were computers, cars were cars, and if your car had a computer, it was just an 8-bit micro-controller that managed your vacuum control valves and fuel pressure.

Re:They do have a point...

[mlts]

This is a double-edged sword. Once people are locked out of their cars, what is to prevent automakers from charging for the ability to go above 45, to go on country roads, to go outside of a state, have more stations on the radio, allow full use of the speakers, allow use of the sunroof, or many other features?

It would be trivial for automakers to license these features just to the owner... so the used car market would dry up, just like it did with used game sales and the fact that most content is from DLC, not on the game disc. Do we want to see automakers demand $5000 from the next person you sell your car to in order to have a software license to start the vehicle?

Look at the console market and how gamers are charged for virtually everything. Would people want that in their cars where they have to pay $100 a month in order to keep access to their climate control and radio? Remember, the car will come with a EULA and those have stood quite well in courts.

Re: That car behind you...

[OzPeter]

Except that very few people will actually be writing new code for their cars. Far more likely a few experts will do some mods and distribute it to any who want with instructions on how to install it. People who change their own brakes aren't manufacturing the brake pads in their garage - they are buying some third party hardware and following general procedures for installing them.

You're comparing apples (code) to oranges (break pads). Third party manufactured break pads will be subject to some oversight and regulation, especially as you can't just whip up break pads in your garage. On the other hand you are suggesting that anyone who really wants to can modify and install software without oversight or regulation - and that is not something I'd like to see in safety critical systems.

And if the people writing the code have to get it certified before it can be used, then that puts them on the level of car manufactures right now, and sort of defeats what is being proposed by the EFF, as you will still not really own the code that is in your car.

There are limits to everything.

[westlake]

I'll take my stand with the automakers on this one.

The only way to gain popular acceptance of the substantially automated or fully driverless car is to guarantee that the technology is trustworthy and reliable ---

that all hardware and software changes are fully documented, competently performed, meet all statutory requirements and will not leave the owner or manufacturer exposed to civil or criminal action somewhere down the road.

The geek may obsess over his "ownership" of a vehicle. I care more about avoiding a crash and a lawsuit that may cripple me financially.

Re:There are limits to everything.

[Pfhorrest]

Exactly. There are two orthogonal issues at hand here:

- Should there be laws regulating what kind of software can control vehicles on public roads?

- Should there by laws regulating whether the owner of a vehicle can look at and modify the software in his car?

It's perfectly analogous to existing hardware modifications. There's no laws saying you can't modify you car in any way you damn well please. There are laws about what kinds of cars can be operated on public roads. There's a possibility that some modifications you make (hardware or software) may make your car unsuitable to operate on public roads. But that doesn't mean you are preemptively prohibited from making those changes — just that you can be liable for operating such a modified vehicle on public roads.

Re:That car behind you...

[quintessencesluglord]

All the more reason to keep something like brakes mechanical. It's not like electronics don't ever fail, and you usually have clear indicators for when something mechanical is on its last legs.

You are stating as such that even homebrewed reprogramming doesn't take a bunch of specialized equipment and knowledge still. It's not like opening a program, moving every value to 11 and closing. Someone who had no clue would be lucky to get the car to start, much less move move than 20 feet.

Nope, what is at issue here is more non-factory authorized tuners and repair shops. Your basic idiot can purchase an engine management system now and go to town, or hold the engine in with chicken wire, so it's not like you have safeguards regardless.

And especially as electric cars come into the fold, being able to modify parameters is the equivalent to putting on a larger exhaust. I'd rather have more options than what the factory allows, especially when the factory is charging twice the garage rate of my local shop.

Re:Would you like next door kid reprogram his car?

[Anonymous Coward]

I swear to god the shills on this website....

this has nothing to do with the code. Car companies want to stop independent mechanics using software than bypasses the manufacturers electronic locks. The locks are present to give their dealerships a monopoly on car repairs.

Anyone who believes these shill: You are not as smart as you think. Learn to be more skeptical.

Roll your own!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently this is news to slashdotters, but hot rod enthusiasts are able to completely build replicas early model cars. You can build a 1940 Ford Coupe with steel frame and steel body, 1965 small block built to moderrn quality. Not one bit of electronics except for the radio. Street legal.

Nowadays building your own car is like paint by numbers. Note: possessing an indoor garage and automotive tools is recommended before attempting to build your own car.

Re:That car behind you...

[quintessencesluglord]

Which definition of equivalent are you unaware of?

The bit that you are too dense to grasp is that all of your fears are happening NOW. Every single car you see on the road has the possibility of some modification to the mechanicals or EMS. I upgraded to larger brakes. The horror!

The main difference is being able look over the entire code so it is obvious that maximum current is linked to regenerative braking or having to kluge together some code and finding out after the accidents start coming in.

And especially here, arguing for security through obscurity is just delicious.

Re:Would you like next door kid reprogram his car?

[mrchaotica]

How would you feel about, say, 10% of the cars on the road running custom software by the next door kid?

How would you feel about the food you eat being prepared at home by a mere lay "cook" without any formal food service training (shock, horror!) instead of on a McDonalds assembly line?

How would you feel about playing sports with friends instead of having it be prohibited except for "professionals" because somebody might get hurt?

How would you feel about wiping your ass yourself, rather than having to hire a Certified Asswipe to do it for you because you're apparently so fucking incompetent that you might miss a spot and get sick?

Re:They want dealer only service just think what t

[tompaulco]

Hey no problem. They want dealer only service for the life of the car, then go ahead and supply it under warranty.

They are welding the hood shut!

[Gim Tom]

I remember when the standard analogy comparing open source to proprietary software was, "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" Sound to me like they are wanting to weld the hood shut.

Re:That car behind you...

[quintessencesluglord]

Oh for fucks sake...

If I change timing an a vehicle through software or through larger injectors is irrelevant. I'm changing an operating parameter, but since software is more akin to magic to you, it's nothing that should be trusted to mere mortals.

And beyond your doomsday scenarios, even with complete modification being available now, that hasn't transpired; it's possible, and so should be outlawed. Do you work for DHS by chance?

And the ONLY thing that would change is increasing the cost, as again, you were too dense to catch it, complete EMS systems are available now. Complete motor management systems are available now. By your estimation we should have death tolls, and yet nothing.

There are even critical systems running linux now. No explosions that I'm aware of.

What do you have against empirical evidence anyway?

Further, arguing for safety concerns through the auspices DMCA is disingenuous in the extreme. You are arguing for no modifications, which, allow me to laugh even further. Putting in an aftermarket stereo could overload the electrical systems of a car, sending kittens and babies to a fiery death. Oh dear god.

The only thing patently insulting is your idiocy.

No, the EFF is talking about *modifying* code

[drnb]

I swear to god the shills on this website...this has nothing to do with the code.

Actually this thread is really about the code. Re-read and note: "The EFF ... asked for an exemption to be put in place so car owners would be free to inspect and modify the code running on their vehicles."

Car companies want to stop independent mechanics using software than bypasses the manufacturers electronic locks.

Yes, that is also true. However that does not negate the reality that the EFF wants people to be able to MODIFY code. That is something FAR beyond simply getting the error codes and diagnostic data that would allow non-dealership mechanics to work on the car. Its a related but quite separate issue.

Re:That car behind you...

[drinkypoo]

Brakes tend to be one of the easiest jobs going.

And yet people get it wrong all the time.

Disk brakes maybe 10 minutes or so Drum brakes can take a bit longer.

Many of my vehicles have had four wheel disc and yet twice I've opened up a drum brake to do a brake job and found a component installed backwards.

As an aside, why the fuck are there drum brakes any more? Anyone who has specified them for a production vehicle since WWII should be slapped, smacked, stabbed, shot, and then taken outside and really hurt.

Re:That car behind you...

[drinkypoo]

Didn't see any tamper preventions on the odometer of my car (made in 1982) - just a mechanical counter.

OBD-II vehicles maintain an internal odometer in the PCM, even if the cluster somehow has a physical odometer. Modern vehicles with immobilizers have security codes which come into play when replacing immobilizers. In many cases it is possible for the shadetree mechanic to program immo codes so long as they manage to get the codes out of the old hardware before replacing it. If too much smoke has been let out of components, it means a trip to the dealer... or replacement of the PCM with an aftermarket unit. My Audi A8 has all that fancy-pants stuff, but in a pinch I could buy a $500 replacement aftermarket PCM. It wouldn't be smog-legal, but my county doesn't do repeat emissions testing. I'd lose my immo functionality entirely, of course.

Re: That car behind you...

[drinkypoo]

Third party manufactured break pads will be subject to some oversight and regulation, especially as you can't just whip up break pads in your garage.

What? Who told you that? I watched a video of some guys doing it in Cuba. They took asbestos out of a bag and mixed it with phenolic resin, then put it into a mold with a brake lining they had cleaned and cooked it until it was a brake shoe.

Also, third party brake pads aren't subject to any regulation, because you can sell them "for off-road use only".

Re:Software does not belong in cars

[drinkypoo]

Sure. Using a set of mechanical switches to fire spark, along with a set of weights to advance spark, is a great idea,

It was a good idea.

very reliable,

Uh no. Nowhere near as reliable as an optical or hall effect trigger and an igniter transistor.

and adapts to real time conditions.

To just one condition, engine vacuum. And using vacuum advance precludes a whole lot of other nifty technologies.

Points suck, and throwing them away and putting in electronic ignition is one of the best thing you can do for an old vehicle to improve reliability and performance.

Already too late

[Locke2005]

Already had this problem with my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. The hybrid battery went dead. I went to the dealer and asked them to sell me a new battery so I could put it in. They refused, insisting THEY had to install it, and they would not sell me the battery! That's right, kids -- they refused to let me fix my own car, despite the fact that I am a trained electronics technician and hold a Bachelor's degree in Electronics Engineering!

Re:I don't agree that cars cost more.

[tompaulco]

As far as I can tell the cost of a Toyota Corolla is basically the same number of dollars as it was 10 years ago. Which means that after factoring in inflation the car is significantly cheaper than it used to be.

Simple research on cars.com shows that the MSRP of a new 2015 Corolla is between 16,950 and 22,955. The original MSRP on a 2005 Corolla was 13,780 to 17,555. The price has increased between 23% and 31%. In that timeframe, inflation has supposedly gone up 20.2%, so the price of the Corolla has output paced inflation by a factor of 1.15 to 1.5.
In 2005, the Median household income was $55,238. A Corolla cost 25-32% of that.
In 2013, the last year for which numbers have been released, the median household income was $51,939. A Corolla costs 33-44% of that.
In 1968, the Corolla was first introduced in the United States. It cost under $1,700. Median household income was $7,700. The Corolla cost 22% of that.
Clearly cars are costing more as a fraction of income then ever before.
This does not even take into consideration that many households in 1968 were single earner households. Now, most households are dual income, but with nearly twice the earners in the household, the cost of a new car is still a higher percentage of income than ever before.