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Vizio, Destroyer of Patent Trolls

An anonymous reader writes: We read about a lot of patent troll cases. Some are successful and some are not, but many such cases are decided before ever going to court. It's how the patent troll operates — they know exactly how high litigation costs are. Even without a legal leg to stand on, they can ask for settlements that make better financial sense for the target to accept, rather than dumping just as much money into attorney's fees for an uncertain outcome. Fortunately, some companies fight back. TV-maker Vizio is one of these, and they've successfully defended against 16 different patent trolls, some with multiple claims. In addition, they're going on the offensive, trying to wrest legal fees from the plaintiffs for their spurious claims. "For the first time, it stands a real chance, in a case where it spent more than $1 million to win. Two recent Supreme Court decisions make it easier for victorious defendants to collect fees in patent cases. The TV maker is up against a storied patent plaintiffs' firm, Chicago-based Niro, Haller & Niro, that has fought for Oplus tooth and nail. ... For Vizio, the company feels that it's on the verge of getting vindication for a long-standing policy of not backing down to patent trolls."

23 of 104 comments (clear)

  1. I will never understand by justthinkit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I will never understand why the loser doesn't pay the winner's fees.

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    1. Re:I will never understand by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A large company would be able to financially destroy an individual, depending on the outcome.

      You may think you have a valid case. But could you pay for the legal fees of Sony/Visio/Target/AMD if you lose?

    2. Re:I will never understand by justthinkit · · Score: 2

      So instead the reverse scenario commonly plays out -- small wronged person doesn't dare sue big corporation.

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      I come here for the love
    3. Re:I will never understand by justthinkit · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Simple way to level things -- make the compensatory stakes (not counting fines) the smaller of the two sets of legal fees. That way the small person has nothing to lose if they are in the right, and an acceptable cost if they are not. Similarly, the big corp. has nothing to lose from frivolous lawsuits, and loses its mightily intimidating club when it is in the wrong.

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    4. Re:I will never understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      $200 per/hour? A first year associate at most corporate law firms bills around $350 an hour, particularly in IP. Most IP partners bill at approximately $750 - $900 per hour.

    5. Re:I will never understand by penguinoid · · Score: 2

      I will never understand why the loser doesn't pay the winner's fees.

      That would be naturally anti-balanced. Consider that the person who spent the most is likelier to win (even wrongly), and similarly that would mean a terrible expenditure on the part of the loser, who would lose both his case and the tremendous legal fees of the winner. The tenancy would then be for both sides to spend all their money on the case, and for the lose to go bankrupt.

      Ideally, the legal system should have the following traits:
      There should be a significant disadvantage for the aggressor, to discourage frivolous or non-frivolous but unnecessary lawsuits.
      It should not be too difficult nor risky for someone who was clearly harmed by another, to take legal action against them.
      The outcome should not be unduly influenced by money nor status. The less wealthy party should not face undue risk of losing, nor the more wealthy undue risk of being taken advantage of.
      Those clearly innocent should not be unduly harmed by the trial, the clearly guilty should not be able to get off with a meaningless punishment.
      The process should not be illegal. No violations of the Constitution, no perjury/parallel construction, no bribes/campaign contributions/threats of absurd punishment if one doesn't plead guilty

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    6. Re:I will never understand by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Another solution is to make "winning" and "losing" non-binary. So if the defendant offers to settle for $2M, the plaintiff refuses the settlement, and the case goes to trial and the judgement is only $1M, then the plaintiff won, but should still be considered the "loser" since they refused a more than reasonable pre-trial settlement. This offer of judgement reform has been implemented in US Federal courts, and in some states.

    7. Re:I will never understand by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 5, Informative

      >Yeah, yeah, yeah, McDonald's Coffee case. There was something there legally that wasn't reported in the media or if it was, it went over everyone's head.

      Things most people miss.

      The manager of that McDonald's refused to pick up 50% of the initial ER bill. ( Literally, all they had to do, was sign a piece of paper, and that would have been that. I've forgotten the dollar amount, but even doubling it, to allow for the cost of having a lawyer examine it, would have been far cheaper, than the resulting lawsuit.)

      McDonald's corporate had cited that specific McDonald's for violating their policy on how hot coffee should be served at, several times, before this specific incident occurred.

      Need I mention her third degree burns, in an area of the body that is extremely difficult to treat.

      --
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    8. Re:I will never understand by whoever57 · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's how it works in the UK. It's been like that for a long time.

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    9. Re:I will never understand by gnasher719 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Simple way to level things is what is used in Germany - fees are limited to a fixed small percentage of the value being argued about, but if you demand a large amount and get only a small amount, you actually count as the loser (so a large corporation suing you for 100 million dollars and awarded $100 would actually pay 99.9999% of the total cost).

      In the case of patent trolls demanding huge money, even if they are rewarded a small amount, they would have to pay all the cost.

    10. Re:I will never understand by ckatko · · Score: 2

      You answered your own question. Make a law that if it's a corporation sues an individual, the corporation has to pay if it loses. If a corporation sues a corporation, or a person sues a person, it's the way it is already.

      What's the difference? A completely disproportionate amount of power and leverage. A billion dollar company (or the government!) shouldn't be able to sue and automatically win against a single person just because they can't afford to defend themselves.

      It's not difficult to see how a large company or government would have much more access to potential research, expert witnesses, and more. So if they're going to use all that... AND lose, then they should fit the damn bill for their frivolity.

    11. Re:I will never understand by Dahamma · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The manager of that McDonald's refused to pick up 50% of the initial ER bill.

      The problem is, THIS is exactly what patent trolls rely on! You are saying even if they felt like they didn't do anything wrong, they should just pay a lesser fee to avoid a possibly larger one after litigation.

      This woman had 3rd degree burns because she was 78 years old, in a car, and spilled a cup of 180 degree coffee on cotton sweatpants that she couldn't remove in 30+ seconds. That SUCKS. But on the other hand I (and most people) brew coffee at > 180 degrees at home every day and manage not to soak cotton sweatpants with it to cook our skin for 30 seconds. Because hot coffee is not intended to be pressed up against the skin for 30 seconds. It's intended to be sipped slowly.

      McDonald's got fucked in this lawsuit because they were an arrogant megacorporation. Which I have to say, I don't pity them much for. But I also don't think the lawsuit made much sense.

    12. Re:I will never understand by jklovanc · · Score: 2

      You are saying even if they felt like they didn't do anything wrong,

      There is the rub. They knew they were doing something wrong and did it anyway. They knew they were brewing coffee too hot as they had been warned several times before. They brew hotter so more flavour is extracted and less ground coffee needs to be used. One of the reasons the award was so bit gas that they put a few dollars profit above customer safety. Serving coffe at a temperature that would burn the inside of the mouth when it is designed to be consumed immediately is what got them into trouble.

      But on the other hand I (and most people) brew coffee at > 180 degrees at home every day and manage not to soak cotton sweatpants with it to cook our skin for 30 seconds.

      I bet that you cool the coffee with milk, as she was trying to do, or wait until you drink it. Coffee that hot would burn your mouth.

      Which I have to say, I don't pity them much for. But I also don't think the lawsuit made much sense.

      Read a few more facts and you will see that justice was served.

    13. Re:I will never understand by jklovanc · · Score: 3, Informative

      McDonalds claims their customers like the coffee at a higher temp (175-180) since they often commute and don't drink it for a while.

      I guess you don't commute either. Most people who get coffee at a drive through start drinking it immediately.
      From the article;

      Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.
      Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

      That is an admission of guilt and recklessness by McDonald's,
      They finally changed their policy

      Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees fahrenheit.

      Similarly, I also don't blame knives for being "too sharp" when I drop one on my foot ...

      You miss the point that a sharp knife will not cause damage if used correctly. Coffee at 180 degrees would burn the mouth of consumed.

      This might be one of the reasons that Tim Horton's actually puts in the cream and sugar so you don't have to on the car.

  2. My next TV by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Will probably be a Vizio

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    1. Re:My next TV by binarylarry · · Score: 3, Funny

      I love drawing diagrams in Vizio.

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  3. a customer couldn't sue a car company, or any big by raymorris · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Suppose you bought a car which had a significant safety defect. You sue the car company. After a spending a million dollars on lawyers and experts, the company's lawyers convince the judge that you filed suit in the wrong court, so you lose. Now you owe the car company a million bucks. That type of outcome would happen often enough that it would be very, very rare for anyone to sue someone with more money than they have.

        Instead, the fees are based on fairness- if you file a frivolous suit, you can plan on being ordered to pay the defendant's costs. Also, if you clearly CAUSE a suit, you can be ordered to pay the other party's costs. As an example, suppose you write to the car company asking them to fix the defect, at a cost of $350. They give you the run around for two years, promising to fix it but they never fix it. They admit it's a problem, they admit they caused the problem, but they just won't fix it without being sued. In such a case, you'd probably be awarded costs (and possibly treble damages).

  4. Re:Great company. by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I shall add to your anecdote.

    I had a 22" Visio mounted in my Freightliner, (large American style tractor-trailer for those unfamiliar) it survived 7 years of vibration, hard shocks (potholes, bad roads), dust, moisture and extremes in temperatures. I used it another year after I retired and then gave it to my son. He sold it after buying a new TV about a year later.

    The only two problems it ever had were:
    1: about three years after I put it in the truck, a large capacitor came unglued from the board and broke its connection. I re-soldered it in the back while my student drove. (the ultimate mobile TV repair?)

    2: at the six year mark, it developed a yellowish discoloration at the bottom center of the screen. It was only noticeable when viewed from an angle or from strait on if it was displaying a blank screen. It was difficult to see strait on with anything moving on the screen (DVD, computer game).

    I was very impressed with its performance as it lived through total hellish abuse and continued to function for years afterward. It may even still be working. I certainly wouldn't be surprised!

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  5. yes, very common for appeal to instruct on the law by raymorris · · Score: 3, Informative

    The appeals courts generally rule on the LAW, not on the FACTS. So when they overturn a decision they frequently remand it with an instruction (not a request) to decide it in accordance with a specific understanding of the law.

    Why send it back rather than just deciding the outcome of the case? Because the appellant ruling on the law may or may not change the outcome of a case. Imagine someone confessed to a murder, and there were also witnesses. The appellant court might rule that as a matter of law the confession is not admissible. They'd remand the case to be tried without the confession. The murderer might well still be convicted based on witness testimony and other evidence. The appeals court doesn't hear from witnesses, they just rule on points of law. The trial court would need to judge guilt or innocence, while following the appellant court's instruction to not play the confession for the jury.

  6. And then, go after the USPTO by Sebby · · Score: 3, Interesting
    After they win that, they can go after the USPTO for creating this mess they've had to spend money to clean up.

    Sure, some will say 'that's how the system works', but I don't see why companies should have to pay to clean up a government agency's screwups.

    Also, it might make the USPTO think twice (read: actually do their job) before approving bogus "patents".

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  7. Re:IP lawyers don't work on contingency fee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    That isn't true at all. I know because I have represented many people on a contingency fee basis. However, like most patent attorneys, before representing someone on a contingency basis, I make sure that a) their patent is good, and b) there is money to be made from enforcing the patent.

    However, most patent lawyers will not represent a patent holder in an IPR proceeding on a contingency basis. Because IPR proceedings are now the norm, any patent holder must have a warchest of several hundred thousand dollars to bring any suit against an infringer. If a "loser pay" system is implemented, the patent holder would need to have several million in the bank before bringing suit. This allows large corporations to stonewall and bankrupt patent holders.

  8. It's kind of like winning a cockfight though by istartedi · · Score: 2

    It's kind of like winning a cockfight though. The whole contest exists only because the surrounding environment is corrupt and/or seedy.

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  9. Re:I will never understand [assignment of fees] by whit3 · · Score: 2

    Simple way to level things -- make the compensatory stakes (not counting fines) the smaller of the two sets of legal fees. That way the small person has nothing to lose if they are in the right, and an acceptable cost if they are not.

    Unfortunately, that would mean the judge might not review the fee schedule. This induces a corporate attorney to assign all his compensation and overhead for a period of months (even if he did other tasks during that period). It would also encourage big-fee-but-a-secret-kickback negotiations (which are not discoverable, due to attorney-client privilege). This is a common failing when relying on factoids that are determined by the recordkeeping and other actions of ... your opponent (dare I say, enemy?). Example: a shell corporation sues, the lawyer for the shell corporation 'hires' out lots of expensive work to the parent corporation for technical support. When the lsoer pays for this work, the parent corporation profits twice... and the second payment is tax-free (it's a recovery of 'costs').