Tesla Adds Used Models To Its Inventory, For Online Purchase

Jalopnik reports that Tesla Motors Inc. has very quietly started to sell used cars online, following in the footsteps of larger car companies. Its new certified vehicle program brings down the staggering costs of one of their electric cars while still ensuring manufacturer maintenance and repairs. Most of the cars that are on Tesla’s website were previously owned by people who have since traded up to the AWD Model S. Soon, this stockpile will also include leased Teslas. Engadget adds You're limited to shopping in a handful of cities in the U.S. and Canada, but the cars come with a 4-year, 50,000-mile warranty to assuage fears that you've bought a lemon. No, the move doesn't make the company's luxury EVs much more attainable -- the best offer we've seen so far is for a $59,000 'entry' model.

Comments

Far too expensive for a used car

[YrWrstNtmr]

If I could afford $70k for a used one, I could afford a new one.

Washington, used P85, 19,000 miles, $79,000.
New P85D, $87,500.
Why would I bother with the used one?

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[t0qer]

Unlike internal combustion engines, electric brushless motors can last pretty much forever. Drivetrain wear is probably the #1 reason cars depreciate in value. If there's no wear, there's no depreciation.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

Options

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[paskie]

Maybe you have never owned a notebook or a cellphone, so let me note: batteries deteriorate.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[YrWrstNtmr]

Drivetrain wear. And seat cushions, and pedal surfaces, and all that other stuff that shows wear damage after use.
Yes, they are great cars. But why would I pay $60-70K for a used one, when a new one isn't that much more?

A BMW, $50k new. A few years old, $25k. That works. If that used BMW were $45k...that would NOT work.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

Or how long will the car stand up to future more efficient cars in cost justification? i do not know

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Whorhay]

I expect that Teslas will depreciate but it'll just be less than with an ICE powered car. I'll be looking for a 30-40% depreciation before I could dream of talking the spouse into buying one.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[BasilBrush]

The used Tesla prices will respond to demand. If there's not enough demand at those prices, they lower the prices. If there's a glut of used cars to sell (like the ex-leased ones that will come along before long), then the price will be lowered. The initial high prices probably reflect the fact that there aren't many used Teslas as yet.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[itzly]

While all batteries deteriorate, the battery in the car is not the same type as in your notebook, and will last longer.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[wisnoskij]

Theoretically, I would like to see in a few decades if a Tesla engine lasts any significant amount longer than a standard well made combustion. And batteries really take the place of the engine for a combustion car (they are really the heart and soul of the electric car, on which everything else depends). They are super expensive, and I have yet to see any battery tech that lasts over 4 years, and normally it is performing far worse than optimal at a fraction of that time. I think Tesla claims that theirs are suppose to last well, but still not anywhere near where a few years of wear is not a significant chunk out of their value.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[YrWrstNtmr]

Also, do I get the $7,500 Fed tax credit? Or does that only apply to the original buyer? I don't know either way, but something to investigate before taking the plunge on a used one.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

If you consider it a bother, then don't.

Many people, though, would not consider the used one a bother and would not put the marginal value of a new P85D over a used P85D at $8500.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[sribe]

They are super expensive, and I have yet to see any battery tech that lasts over 4 years, and normally it is performing far worse than optimal at a fraction of that time.

Actual tests on actual used cars (by Consumer Reports) demonstrate that what you say is unequivocally wrong for the batteries used in EVs and hybrids. No, the ones in our notebooks and phones don't last so long, because size and weight are more important than lasting 10 years. Cars are designed differently, for different longevity/size/weight tradeoffs than are portable electronics.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

> If I could afford $70k for a used one, I could afford a new one.

People don't get rich by indiscriminately buying new for an extra $8500 when used would be good enough. For some people, the way they came to be able to afford a $70k car (and also a new one) is by choosing used when it is good enough.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[compro01]

Actually, they are about the same type. Tesla's packs use a modified (PTC fuse and CID removed) version of the bog standard 18650 Li-ion cell, which is commonly used in laptop batteries.

It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[lakeland]

Because it's just like new for a tidy little discount. Why pay full price when you don't have to?

The $79k car you picked out had a couple options that put it to $91k new, so you're getting a one year old car for 15% off. I think that's about right.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[CrankyFool]

I'd be shocked if you also got the federal tax credit. For one thing, it could lead to fun games: Imagine if every purchaser of the car gets the $7500 tax credit.

I buy it from the factory, I get $7500 (but pay about $100K).
I sell it to you for $7500. You get $7500 back. It's free to you.
You sell it to me for $7500. I get $7500 back. I keep my car, and you just made $7500.

Repeat as necessary.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[BasilBrush]

If you've failed to see, then you haven't looked.
Prius batteries are warrantied for 10 years. Full parts and labour if they fail. Most last longer than that.

Priuses used as taxies tend to be replaced after 300,000 miles, and they don't need a battery replacement in that time.

Basically, car batteries have roughly the lifespan of an internal combustion engine.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

That, and the fact tat you don't use your car for hours upon hours every day.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Whiternoise]

Phones and laptops are also subject to relatively harsher environments. They're not cooled adequately and they're normally fully cycled every single day. An EV's battery pack could feasibly last a week or two for someone with a short commute.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[ShanghaiBill]

It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.

Usage patterns also matter. Plenty of people, like my wife and kids, regularly run down their phones and laptops to 0%, even when there is a charger three feet away. Most people commute 30 miles or less in a day, which is only about 15% of a Tesla's range.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[BitZtream]

It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.

Sure, if you mean over provisioned batteries that you never have access to the full capacity of, then sure.

Tesla has nothing special, they just sell you 20kw/H batteries, and call them 5kw/H batteries, now they last 4 times as long. No those numbers are not exact matches for Tesla packs, but the point is the same.

My point is simply that they don't have anything special other than a different usage pattern to prevent stupid users from destroying the batteries.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Paradise Pete]

If I could afford $70k for a used one, I could afford a new one.

Perhaps the main purpose of that pricing is to convince would-be buyers of new ones that their car will hold its value.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Smidge204]

From owner's estimations, ~90% of the battery's stated capacity is actually available for use. The 10% is not so much "fail-over" capacity as it is a buffer to keep the battery away from the extremes of charge/discharge states, where most of the degradation occurs.

Your cell phone battery has no problems charging to 100%, since you want to get as much energy (and therefore use time) in there as possible for the weight. However, charging to 100% harms the chemistry, and after a few years the battery no longer lasts as long. That's fine for a cell phone - part of it is planned obsolescence, part of it is the reality that a lot of people won't keep their phone more than a few years.

In an EV you have the luxury of maintaining a charge buffer, since the added weight and cost is fairly minimal and people have a much higher expectation of long-term performance.

So usage pattern + design (thermal management) + energy management which does prevent the user from destroying it = significantly different performance degradation profile.
=Smidge=

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a difference between being 'able to afford' something and being frugal. If you are wise with your money and you really wanted a Tesla, you would buy the used one and invest the $10k difference. It's backed by the same warranty and you're effectively getting the same thing.

It may be anecdotal, but without exception all of my comfortable/wealthy friends buy used cars while the ones living paycheck to paycheck buy or lease brand new ones. One of my friends cleared over $6 million after taxes last year and he drives a Lexus that he bought used. He has been making this kind of money for over ten years. His second car is a 1994 Chevy Astro minivan that he uses for camping trips. Another friend of mine is a dentist and he pulls in over $600k. He lives in a modest house and saves/invests 80% of the money he takes home. He bought his Prius used. His wife, who makes over $200k, drives a used Honda Accord.

Coincidentally, a friend of mine (who owns over 350 investment properties in southern California alone) is looking to buy one of these used Teslas. I'm quite sure he can afford a new one. The way he sees it is that he can use that $10-20k difference towards another investment property. Why tie the money up in a depreciating asset? That would be foolish.

I would bet that the average buyer of a used Tesla has a more substantial portfolio than the one who bought the new one. Keeping a lot of money requires more discipline than earning a lot of money.

As a side note, I would imagine Tesla is putting the prices up high in an attempt to set the market rate. If they can play a part in setting the resale value high, they can offer considerably better lease deals and ultimately sell more cars. Considering that 1) this is a new market and 2) they will control a large percentage of the used car inventory, setting the price high is a very wise move on their part.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy New and be on the waiting for months.

Or.

Buy Used and get the car NOW.

For some people, time is more important than money (or depreciation)

Re: Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

No one who spends $70,000 on q car is frugal...

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

There's also a waitlist for new Teslas, since demand is currently higher than the rate the Tesla can produce them.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Gavagai80]

My 6 year old netbook battery hasn't declined noticeably yet, thanks to not being used a lot. So yes, fewer charging cycles can mean much longer life.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Notabadguy]

No, you do not.

If you look at the federal tax credits at fueleconony.gov, the tax credit only applies to the first owner of the vehicle, only for new vehicles, and only in certain years.

If you lease a new EV, the dealership keeps the federal tax credit as well. If you look at the forms at fueleconomy.gov, it's pretty specific.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml

In short. No.

The original use of the vehicle commences with the taxpayer—it must be a new vehicle.

The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale. (The credit is only available to the original purchaser of a new, qualifying vehicle. If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.)

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.

Actually, there are differences. Small differences in the electrolyte can make huge improvements to improve battery longevity, in addition to the cooling and battery management systems. The point here is that just because some batteries are made from carbon and lithium does not make them equal.

Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation?

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Agripa]

Motors should be more reliable than engines and transmissions but I have changed more wheel bearings than engine and transmission bearings. I have little doubt that Tesla makes a well designed and reliable electronic drivetrain but I expect companies like GMC to build carefully crafted junk when they get around to it.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[tlhIngan]

Why would I bother with the used one?

It's actually a reflection on the odd fact that a brand new Tesla is often *cheaper* than a used one.

Yes, you heard that right - you can pick up a new Tesla cheaper - Tesla's got a continual backlog of at least 3 months or more...

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[compro01]

Sure, but the cells Tesla uses are the same ones Panasonic sells to anyone else. Panasonic may have some special sauce electrolyte that makes them better than Energizer, but that still doesn't make Tesla's anything special compared to anything else that uses Panasonic sells.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[adolf]

You think your wife and kids won't regularly run a Tesla down to 0% (for various values of "0"), even when there is a charger three feet away from where it is parked?

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet the old cars are more often scrapped due to non-drivetrain issues, such as general wear-and-tear, collision damage or electronics problems. Anything that makes passing the mandatory safety inspection more expensive than its value, basically.

Re: Far too expensive for a used car

[billdale]

Yes, most batteries do degrade noticeably over time, but where your laptops, cell phones and other small hardware is concerned, there are several free apps for reducing that rate of degradation. Battery Widget, which is what I use and is quite satisfactory, lets you know when you have reached upper or lower limits (or both) of battery charge levels that you set-- I have mine set at 80% (upper limit) and 25% and 30% lower limits). By keeping my phone's charge levels in its "sweet spot", it will last noticeably longer and possibly prevent having to buy a replacement battery before you decide to upgrade. Re: Tesla battery packs: as stated by someone earlier, Tesla cells do not degrade as quickly as the cells in your small, personal devices due to more precise temp controls and battery management systems (BMSes). When they do need to be replaced, they do not need to be junked or recycled-- they can be reused to store energy generated by solar panels or wind generators, for use at night or on cloudy or windless days. Such energy storage use extends the cells' viability for several years. Also, even before the cells are ready to be replaced, there is a very real possibility that cells will be available that will be significantly improved in one or more ways-- greater energy density, longer cycle life, less expensive, etc. "Nanopore" batteries, for instance, or ones based on graphene or aluminum, could replace what we use today and make EVs far more practical, inexpensive and long-lived.

Re: Far too expensive for a used car

[billdale]

wisnoskij: regarding EVs and hybrids, it helps to use the term "engine" only when referring to fueled powerplants, and "motor" when referring to electrical drive, including hybrids that have both ICEs and motors... otherwise, it leads to confusion and misunderstanding.

Re:Far too expensive for a used car

[afidel]

Unlike internal combustion engines, electric brushless motors can last pretty much forever. Drivetrain wear is probably the #1 reason cars depreciate in value. If there's no wear, there's no depreciation.

ahem, about that.

Three drive train replacements in 30k in an ICE vehicle would qualify it under probably every states lemon laws.

first post twenty-two minutes later?

[Anonymous Coward]

My oh my, everyone's batteries must be fully discharged. Or /. is dying slowly... Twenty-two minutes up and no comments?? On a topic as hot as Tesla?

Anyway, I still claim first post. ;>)

Re:first post twenty-two minutes later?

[Anonymous Coward]

I got the most relevant captcha for you buddy: http://images.slashdot.org/hc/63/717c137d0389.jpg

I'll trust Tesla when their *nix runs Systemd

[Anonymous Coward]

When Tesla's unix runs Systemd for its init system (at the very least) is when I'd like to make the leap to electric. I think a car absolutely needs a good reliable init System and it seems a bit of shortcoming for the company to rely on ancient amateurish scripts.

Re:I'll trust Tesla when their *nix runs Systemd

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, Systemd is the only robust and even remotely modern init system any Linux distro at least can do for itself.

Where's the link?

[crow]

I went to http://www.teslamotors.com/ and I didn't see any reference to used cars. The stories say they "quietly" started selling used cars, but "quiet" appears to be an understatement when you can't find it even if you're looking.

Re:Where's the link?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/preowned

WE ARE SLASHDOT

[Anonymous Coward]

HOORAH!!

Re:bit3h

[webmistressrachel]

Comms Section. He's conjuring up a co-ordinated crapflood of said ASCII art and press releases in an article defined in the encrypted message you see. ;-0

Nice, missing new features, limited filtering

[crow]

Thanks to the person who posted the link:

http://www.teslamotors.com/mod...

Some of these cars are great deals.

You won't find the dual-motor versions, so they're all rear-wheel drive.

I don't think you'll find the autopilot feature on any of them.

And the real frustrating part of the experience is that the filters are very limited. You can't filter on particular features, such as panoramic roof, subzero package, or rear-facing seats.

I expect they'll improve the filtering when they have more than 20 cars to look at.

Re:Nice, missing new features, limited filtering

[dhanson865]

http://logmysc.com/cpo-reports... will let you filter quite nicely

VIN
Locale
Trim
Auto Pilot
Dual Motors
Color
Roof
Wheels
Interior
Year
Miles
Price
Date Added

You are correct that none have CPOd with autopilot or dual motors yet. The consolidator also lets you see the sold cars (or at least ones removed). Presumably some could be removed without selling.

Cheapest so far was $53,000 S60 Grey Metallic 2013 26,569 miles
Cheapest 85kWh so far was $55,850 S85 Black 2012 18,633 miles
Cheapest P85 so far was $63,400 Black 2012 33,013 miles

Re:Nice, missing new features, limited filtering

[Anonymous Coward]

Pre-owned? Haha, that's funny. :)

maybe there's a cheap one here

[Anonymous Coward]

slightly damaged tesla ~ http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/no-injuries-reported-as-glenmore-landing-starbucks-struck-by-vehicle-again-1.2355851

$59k isn't bad

[damn_registrars]

Yeah, it isn't a whole lot less than the cost of one new, but it really isn't a bad deal. If you compare it to a BMW 5 series - most of which start above $50k new - and consider that the BMW will be much more costly to maintain, the Tesla becomes a good deal pretty quickly.

Re:$59k isn't bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad you have $59,000 to blow on a car. Most of us don't.

Tesla DOES use laptop batteries

[DrYak]

No, the ones in our notebooks and phones don't last so long, because size and weight are more important than lasting 10 years. Cars are designed differently, for different longevity/size/weight tradeoffs than are portable electronics.

Except that Tesla (and Smarts, and the few other cars which use batteries manufactured by Tesla) use *the exact same kind* of battery cells as regular laptops (on purpose, because they are cheap and easy to source due to the economy of the scale at which they are produced).

The difference isn't the battery it self (it the exact same cell), it's the battery management software, and the usage pattern.

- Lithium batteries age with the number of cycle they go through. It happens really often that a laptop is drained all the way down to 0% or nearly 0% (lithium batteries hate that). Whereas most of the daily commute Tesla cars are subjected to are short trips that only eat a fraction of their charge.

- The more violent the discharge rate, the faster the lithium battery will age. Under heavy load, a laptop battery will get completely drained in hour or two max. On the other hand, given its range and typical speed limitation, it would take at least 4-5 hours to drain completely a Tesla. i.e.: overall the Tesla eats up much more total power than your laptop (obviously), but each of the cells is put to less stress as it needs to deliver a much lower peak current.

(The two above are also the reason why the *extended life* batteries (e.g.: 9 cells instead of 6 cells) in laptops tend to age much slower).

- Also lithium batteries are very sensitive to temperature / environment. Whereas it's not that much controlled in a laptop (the battery tends to be right next to very hot components like CPU and GPU), Tesla car batteries have almost their own A/C system.

so in short:
- no they are exactly the same batteries. but each takes completely different kind of abuses and thus at the end they tend to age differently.

Re:Tesla DOES use laptop batteries

[sribe]

Except that Tesla (and Smarts, and the few other cars which use batteries manufactured by Tesla) use *the exact same kind* of battery cells as regular laptops (on purpose, because they are cheap and easy to source due to the economy of the scale at which they are produced).

No, they purchase custom cells. Being Lithium-ion, they are certainly similar, and Tesla does not publicly reveal what is custom, but they are not the exact same.

Re:Tesla DOES use laptop batteries

[Agripa]

- Lithium batteries age with the number of cycle they go through. It happens really often that a laptop is drained all the way down to 0% or nearly 0% (lithium batteries hate that). Whereas most of the daily commute Tesla cars are subjected to are short trips that only eat a fraction of their charge.

- The more violent the discharge rate, the faster the lithium battery will age. Under heavy load, a laptop battery will get completely drained in hour or two max. On the other hand, given its range and typical speed limitation, it would take at least 4-5 hours to drain completely a Tesla. i.e.: overall the Tesla eats up much more total power than your laptop (obviously), but each of the cells is put to less stress as it needs to deliver a much lower peak current.

The number of cycles and depth of discharge matter but there are other things as well. One of the lithium battery wear out mechanisms is related to peak cell voltage where higher voltages cause lithium plating which damages the cell. The cells wear out just sitting there when fully charged. Life can be extended by charging the batteries to a lower maximum capacity. For instance a 0.2 volt difference in peak voltage may yield only 75% of the capacity but 4 times as many charge and discharge cycles.

Oddly enough double layer capacitors (supercapacitors and ultracapacitors) have a similar wear-out mechanism where lowering the peak voltage by 0.2 volts raises the operating lifetime by 10 times.

This behavior explains why charge balancing based on the peak cell voltage is important with lithium batteries and double layer capacitors.

Re:Tesla DOES use laptop batteries

[Firethorn]

They mostly remove the safety equipment that's redundant in a Tesla battery pack. Normally they pack a thermal fuse that kills the battery if it overheats or experiences sufficient current overflow.

Re:Tesla DOES use laptop batteries

[sribe]

They mostly remove the safety equipment that's redundant in a Tesla battery pack. Normally they pack a thermal fuse that kills the battery if it overheats or experiences sufficient current overflow.

They have revealed that. (They didn't really have a choice, since they wanted to patent parts of the process, to stop others from duplicating it by tearing apart their battery packs and figuring it out.)

There is no information, none whatsoever, which would confirm that's the only difference in the customized cells they buy from Panasonic.

Maybe just the newer models

[R3d M3rcury]

They've had a link to pre-owned roadsters for awhile. Of course, it's rare to actually find one, dammit...

Re:Tesla DOES NOT use laptop batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

- no they are exactly the same batteries. but each takes completely different kind of abuses and thus at the end they tend to age differently.

Actually, there are differences. Small differences in the electrolyte can make huge improvements to improve battery longevity, in addition to the cooling and battery management systems. The point here is that just because some batteries are made from carbon and lithium does not make them equal.

Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation? [youtube.com]

Re:Tesla DOES NOT use laptop batteries

[sribe]

The point here is that just because some batteries are made from carbon and lithium does not make them equal.

And Tesla's are made from nickel and lithium. They haven't really revealed much else publicly except for 3 things: nickel, removal of safety systems from individual cells, and how they pack them together.