Slashdot Mirror
Recruiters Use 'Digital Native' As Code For 'No Old Folks'
bizwriter writes: Companies are trying to get around Equal Employment Opportunity Commission restrictions on age-discriminatory language (like "recent college graduate") by saying that they want "digital natives." So far, no one has complained to the EEOC, but that could change. "Since the 1990s dotcom boom, many employers have openly sought to hire young, tech savvy talent, believing that was necessary to succeed in the new digital economy. At the same time, age discrimination complaints have spiraled upward, according to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, with 15,785 claims filed in 1997 compared to 20,588 filed in 2014.
Out of the 121 charges filed last year by the EEOC for alleged discriminatory advertising, 111 of them claimed the job postings discriminated against older applicants. The EEOC has said that using phrases like 'college student,' 'recent college graduate,' or 'young blood' violate the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1966. That federal law protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age."
Out of the 121 charges filed last year by the EEOC for alleged discriminatory advertising, 111 of them claimed the job postings discriminated against older applicants. The EEOC has said that using phrases like 'college student,' 'recent college graduate,' or 'young blood' violate the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1966. That federal law protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age."
I was born in the 70s and consider myself a "digital native". All computers I have used have been binary based, for example. All in fact based on transistors. I showed my son a picture of me at his age sitting in front of a TRS-80 and my much beloved Commodore 64 and you know what he said? He said "Wow Dad, you had computers!". Indeed, not only did I have them, but he recognized them as such.
I guess my point is that I'm not sure the term "digital native" has any actual meaning, or at least such meaning will have to be proven in court. Was I turned down because I wasn't "digital native" enough? Or was I turned down because I was too old?
I am just about to hit that milestone 40th birthday this year. If things are as bad as they seem, I'm probably in for a rough couple of decades.
One thing that does bother me is that "digital natives" are no more or less capable of doing a good job in a technology job than older people. The skills are the same -- creative problem solving, troubleshooting, logical thinking and awesome communications skills. Older people do have different qualities in my opinion:
- We've been around the block and seen technology fads appear, disappear and come back later on with better underpinnings. We've also seen how stuff like virtualization and application containers aren't actually new concepts...just way better now than they were.
- Many/most of us have obligations outside of work and greater responsibilities. A 40 year old with two little kids [raises hand] has a little less flexibility than a recent grad who will move anywhere in the country in a week, doesn't mind sharing a 2-bedroom apartment with roommates and will willingly work 14-hour days for no extra pay.
- Many/most of us have also figured out the game of working for a company, and prefer a healthier work/life balance to throwing all your energy into projects that can sometimes get trashed for no reason.
- One advantage we do have is growing up with computers in a much more primitive state, where more about the actual machine was exposed to you. "Digital natives" grow up with packaged platforms and a lot of the underpinnings are permanently abstracted away unless you are sufficiently motivated to dig further.
For these reasons, among others, companies prefer younger workers because they're easier to control. I'm not saying that all of us oldsters are perfect -- I've worked with a lot of burnt out folks who do the bare minimum to keep their job. But, in my opinion it's not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. I won't kill myself for deadlines the way a 22-year-old working for EA might, but I have cranked out consistent good work over my career, and really want to continue doing so until I don't feel I can contribute anymore.
And then it comes out that your company is 90% under the age of 40 and the federal government sues you for age discrimination.
No, simply sending a rejection letter doesn't cover it. You did hear that the fed is currently considering filing suit against Google for this very problem.
And besides, why a company wouldn't want to hire an older employee is beyond me. It's like you're screaming "please! I want unmaintainable code riddled with bugs!".
Sorry, but though younger employees have some advantages, they also have a lot of disadvantages when compared to older. If you don't see this, then you need to get out and see the world. And also, by most metrics, I'd be considered a youngish employee, barely over 30.
"Digital Native" means you're obsessed with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Opentable, selfies, etc.
I was born in the 50's, bought a TRS-80 in '78 or so and have been programming ever since. Mostly device drivers, BSPs, etc.
I know more about computers than most digital natives, yet it's hard for me to get a job because I'm old, don't use FB, don't twit, don't insta, don't have a phone full of selfies, etc.
And we get the job done where those young whippersnappers just give up and throw their toys out of the pram.
My current boss has been trying to hire my replacement (so I can retire) for almost two years.
So far no takers. There are people who are competent in a couple of the technologies we use but ask them something in the interview that is outside their core? They really have no clue and a good few don't seem to want to learn.
I blame the Universities. They just don't seem to teach hoe to view a system from end-to-end any more. When I was a student some 40+ years ago we were specifically tested in looking at the whole system. Electronics, Electrical (motors etc) and Mechanical. The sort of tech that is needed by companies like Tesla.
Sometimes I fear for the future.
Plus, of course, it's still not that rare for people elsewhere in "IT" to switch over to software development at some point. They may actually be willing to take a salary cut and work for entry-level pay if that's what it takes to make the switch.
There are many reasons why pay alone doesn't "keep the old guys away", and some companies really do only want young workers. They tend to be very exploitative companies, however, banking on someone in their first job not recognizing how badly they're being used. Age discrimination may well be low on the list of sins for some of these companies.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"Digital Native" means you're obsessed with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Opentable, selfies, etc.
Weird, I'm a 90's kid and:
I haven't touched my Facebook account in years
My Twitter is mostly subscriptions, generally to things that are actually interesting (eg. @RealTimeWWII not @kanye)
I have no Instagram
I've never actually heard of Opentable
I've taken one selfie in my life, and it was a joke at my sister's wedding
I also used MS-DOS (via Windows 95, sure, but it still counts), think Perl is a more useful language than Ruby or any other fad-language-of-the-week, and I can read assembler if given enough time and a table of opcodes.
Do I still qualify as a Digital Native?
Disclaimer: I'm nearing 40.
I don't think you're right. Using Google taught me a lot of things I otherwise wouldn't have known. Gone are the days when you could master an IT area without looking up documentation on a daily basis. Before, you had brick-width books which weighted up to 10+ pounds. Now, you have Google AND some books. There is no "better" between the two. I use both.
Self-taught is self-taught, be it through books or online lookup. Memory could only take you so far, and many strains of formal education throughout the world are still following the classic way (learn it by heart or else!) which, let's be honest, is becoming obsolete. But I digress.
Companies are looking to hire young people because:
- they take most shit and are happy eating it. I was there, I've done that.
- they likely don't have a family (so they're more likely to use their free time working)
- they're eager to please (I call it "dog loyalty"). It's not an offensive term, it's just younger people are yet to be screwed over and so they're fully loyal even to a vicious master.
- they're cheaper because employers play on their "lack of experience".
And many other reasons which I'm too lazy to enumerate, most of them being unrelated to technical skills.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Their bullshit may be more modern. Perhaps us ol' fogies should attend "Bullshit like a young buck" courses.
When you are interviewing with a PHB, talking the talk matters. Let's face it, the work world is largely a bullshitting game, for good or bad. It would be nice if it were about logic and planning, but humans got into the mix and mucked up that ideal.
I remember during one interview the PHB asked me if I liked to download stuff to my PC to experiment with new gizmos. I replied that I did, but that I prefer to have one "production" PC to get regular work done and a separate "experimental" PC that can be rebaselined if the experiments mess it up and/or to not cross-mix experiments. (Active-X was the "big thing" at the time, which should be enough to explain my caution.)
Anybody with experience will agree this is the rational way to do it. However, this was a start-up and they had no money for double PC's. (Maybe I should have offered to buy my own spare.) My "kind" wasn't welcome. The details of reality bothered them: they wanted to be sold cheap pie in the sky. That is, naive pioneers who don't know about the arrows yet.
That's not me. I value my experience and all the caveats I've learned over the years. I don't intend to sound grumpy or a like parade-rainer, but rather I'm just giving potential risks and estimated probabilities in a direct factual way. If you want to plow thru the asteroid field without being told the odds, then hang out with Jedi's fresh off the dust-farm and contraband runners. And off my swamp, get!
Table-ized A.I.
I know more about computers than most digital natives, yet it's hard for me to get a job because I'm old, don't use FB, don't twit, don't insta, don't have a phone full of selfies, etc.
I understand your background, but honestly don't think you are qualified based solely on that. Application programming is a whole other world, with different tools, different practices and different objectives. I do not think I'd be qualified to apply to such a job right this instant.
I certainly could learn, easily. I know how their stuff works, I was there before it all came around. But before I applied to the position I'd have to learn it all, and walk in ready to talk about it, and find a way to get some of the relevant technology on my resume. I don't think these guys will necessarily know what a BSP is, I wonder if they have considered hardware that is not a PC or mobile phone? I suspect they have not ever brought an OS up on custom hardware, nor do they plan it it. I think I'd read your resume and think you're well qualified to work at a hardware company, but I'm not sure I'd want you in a google or a facebook.
Now it's an entry level job, no experience necessary, but you come in proving you what an AJAX is, and you can JQuery if you must but would rather (whatever the latest hotness is). You understand how to use Facebook and what API exists, and know what Twitter is useful for. You know their acronyms and their tools, If they turned you down then I'd cry discrimination, a true college fresh out with no industry experience really would be less qualified than you in that event, especially if you'll work for his wages.
I remember when I installed my first 3.5" floppy diskette drive in my 8088. It wouldn't read 1.44MB disks. It would try, it would start to format, but it would fail partially through a format or partially through an attempt to read an existing filesystem. I had to figure out why that was the case, and if I'm remembering right it took a trip to the library to read about the addressing limits of the 8088 processor. For an eleven year old, the best solution was to tape over the corner of the disk and reformat it to 720K. Not an ideal solution, but back then it was still common to get new software capable of running on an 8088 on 720K disks, so I didn't lose out as much as one might initially assume.
I'm not expecting this exact piece of knowledge to be known by everyone, but given that the OS (DOS at the time) was really of no help to actually figuring out what the problem was, understanding how the technology works top-to-bottom is essential in being versatile in all situations. This particular problem was so abstract that not only was no dialogue box to use to figure it out, but there were no logs and only a few vague error messages. Even categorizing the nature of the error required learning how the processor worked, much lower level than most people are willing to go.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
"The hardware knowledge argument has become virtually irrelevant in the EC2-world where you can spawn VM pretty much transparently."
But not cost free.
The every cent spent of VM comes right out of the bottom line. Take a look at the all the hard work Facebook does at optimizing.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I did some consulting at a start-up a few years back and had an off-the-record talk with their recruiter. She said that they preferred to hire younger folks because 50 somethings typically have a much harder time working under a 25 year-old supervisor.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Ugh. I remember my pre-computer days when I had to write reports. Horrible handwriting (my mother joked that I was destined to be a doctor based solely on my handwriting) + lefty (pen smears on your hand as you write) + having to rewrite entire pages because you JUST figured out a better way of phrasing something = I hated writing assignments and writing in general. Despised them.
Then, I got to use a computer for the first time.
Suddenly, my "writing" was recognizable, I had no pen smears on my hands, and most importantly, it was easy to copy/paste entire sections of my writing. Even in those early, keyboard-only, hunt-and-peck-bad-typist days, I could churn out a better essay quicker than I could if I handwrote it. From that point on, I found out that I LOVED writing.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Of course, the reason is quite possibly because the 25 year old supervisor is inexperienced and doesn't take kindly to that being pointed out.
Posting anon because I'm about to talk about a former client I did some consulting for. It's a Valley startup. All a bunch of young guys, mostly with one job behind them. One guy did actually have a family, though. Anyway, at one point we were discussing interviewing and hiring. They didn't seem to think there was anything unusual about asking an interview candidate to spend an entire day doing pair programming with them on their own codebase. I pointed out that this would be fine for college students who could bunk off lectures and spend all day watching the interviewer tap out Go, but more experienced/older guys would probably find this a bit problematic, especially if they already have a job. Google can get away with 8 interviews and all day assessments and still hire very senior people because it has the reputation as a great place to work and with great pay, so people put up with the long process. Not every company can do this.
Their response: "well, maybe we don't want to hire senior guys".
I don't think they'd consider themselves explicitly agist. But they very much wanted to hire people just like themselves, and that almost by definition excluded "old" people (anyone 40 or over). This didn't extend to sexism by the way: they were very keen on hiring female interns and recent college grads to write code for them. But they didn't want some guy in his 40's or 50's turning up and pointing out that maybe some of the modern dev fashions they were following had already come and gone in the 1990's, and perhaps using uncool but tried and tested technology would have some real benefits.