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Los Angeles Raises Minimum Wage To $15 an Hour
HughPickens.com writes: Jennifer Medina reports at the NY Times that the council of the nation's second-largest city voted by a 14-1 margin to increase its minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2020. Los Angeles and its almost 4 million residents represent one of the biggest victories yet for those pushing wage increases across the country. Proponents hope it will start to reverse the earning gap in the city, where the top 7% of households earn more than the bottom 67%.
Detractors point out the direct cost increase to businesses, which could total as much as a billion dollars per year. If a business can't handle the increased cost, the employees this measure was designed to help will lose their jobs when it folds. An editorial from the LA Times says it's vital for other cities nearby to increase their minimum wage, too, else businesses will gradually migrate to cheaper locations. They add, "While the minimum wage hike will certainly help the lowest-wage workers in the city, it should not be seen as the centerpiece of a meaningful jobs creation strategy. The fact is that far too many jobs in the city are low-wage jobs — some 37% of workers currently earn less than $13.25 an hour, according to the mayor's estimates — and even after the proposed increase, they would still be living on the edge of poverty."
Detractors point out the direct cost increase to businesses, which could total as much as a billion dollars per year. If a business can't handle the increased cost, the employees this measure was designed to help will lose their jobs when it folds. An editorial from the LA Times says it's vital for other cities nearby to increase their minimum wage, too, else businesses will gradually migrate to cheaper locations. They add, "While the minimum wage hike will certainly help the lowest-wage workers in the city, it should not be seen as the centerpiece of a meaningful jobs creation strategy. The fact is that far too many jobs in the city are low-wage jobs — some 37% of workers currently earn less than $13.25 an hour, according to the mayor's estimates — and even after the proposed increase, they would still be living on the edge of poverty."
Is Slashdot TRYING to lose readers? I thought this was a TECH forum.
I love seeing this crap in American articles. "Oh Noes! If we pay people more, it will cost businesses more!"
Lets look at this for a second.... Who are a businesses customers? Hint: It's the people who get paid a wage. These people get more money, more businesses get more customers. More customers mean more sales. More sales means more profits.
Is it really that hard to grasp that concept?
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
So, they want the government to force the minimums up higher to "living wages," but they don't think everything else will just inflate along with it? Everyone's salaries go up, too! Yay! Wait, groceries and gas just went up too! BOO! Whoa, the dollar is now worth 2 pesos? QUICK, CASH IN YOUR MONIES FROM ACAPULCO! Dude, where's my retirement savings?
That's almost like saying, "If consuming water is good then drowning to death in it must be better". In short, improvements are generally on a bell curve: there's an optimum level of any given factor. Too much or too little tends to create problems.
Table-ized A.I.
Australia has a minimum wage of around $17USD/hour (around $20AUD) which increases 20% if you are a casual. Our poor people do well.
You know how everyone whines about big corporates making too much money; well this is the best way to redistribute that wealth.
Paying your poor people well, helps lift them out of poverty.
46137
"Basic income" is a subsidy to businesses that don't want to pay a living wage. Why should taxpayers subsidize big business more than it already does?
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
What would we do without California to try stupid things so the rest of us learn good reasons avoid them?
Well, so you're saying that there is an upper limit beyond which a minimum wage becomes harmful. So there must be a mechanism that kicks in that imposes that limit. So, explain what it is.
(While you're at it, also explain why businesses would pay $15/h for a worker who doesn't increase revenue by significantly more than $15 for each hour he works.)
I get your point but there is another point people are missing.
what about those who are making 15 an hour now??? or those making 15.50??? will they get a raise??? or has their job that they worked hard for to get the pay they are getting now be considered a minimum wage job? While this *might* help the poorest of the poor (in reality those jobs will disappear) it hurts those who DID work hard to get above the bottom. That is unless they will be getting the same percentage raise as those making min wage now that is
somehow I think this is going to do nothing but devalue jobs in the 15-20$ range
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Some of us can perform work that is work $100 an hour or more. Some people cannot perform any task worth even $5 an hour. Life is unfair.
Real jobs don't pay minimum wage. Where I live one can survive on twelve dollars an hour. It's not fun but you can get by and even have cable tv. I'm glad to see LA jack up the minimum wage and I hope all those other cities in Cali do the same. It'll help solve the water shortage problem there as jobs migrate away from the state and the people follow. I occasionally watch some of these real estate shows that have people choosing from between different houses in places like LA and San Francisco and am blown away by the real estate prices there. For what you can buy here for less than 100 grand it often will cost half a million or more there. My electric bill here runs about $100 to $300 dollars depending on the season, a months water bill (including trash pickup) is usually around $30. The mortgage on my 3 bedroom 2000 square foot house is $590 including taxes and insurance. A dollar here is not equal to a dollar in LA.
The real minimum wage is always 0. I work in Seattle, where they recently did this. Entry level places where I live (not in Seattle), where the minimum wage is $10/hour, all have help wanted signs out. In downtown Seattle, however there was a wave of restaurant closings, and I don't see help wanted signs anywhere. Could be other causes for the difference, of course, maybe it's something else - but it's not a promising sign for teens looking for that first job.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
people need a minimum amount of money to live. if they are paid less, then they need public assistance. for example walmart employees who qualify for food stamps.
lower wages mean that employees will need more and more public assistance to feed and house their families.
you are a socialist if you don't believe in minimum wage, because you want the government to fund worker's pay.
If you really believe that a minimum wage can increase the welfare of poor people, why not raise it to $500/hour? Then we can all be rich!
Silly lad.
That's like saying that if the minimum wage is too high, and it hurts employers, we should just not pay anyone anything at all. and we'd all be wealthy
But let's get back to reality for a second. One of th ebaxtoipnzs of right thinking, God fearing economic rightness, Walmart (genuflect) Who just happens to be the largest employer in the country http://www.usatoday.com/story/...
http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/c...
looky who's on medicaid!
While we are at it: http://www.bloombergview.com/a...
Which is all to say, that if you support keeping th eminimum wage at present levels, you are an avbid and enthusiastic promoter of our tax dollars allowing them to pay that minimum wage.
Highly socialistic there, Tovaritsch. Are you going to the communist party meeting tonight, Comrade?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I'm normally pretty libertarian when it comes to issues like this, but it doesn't surprise me especially in a state like California where the cost of most things has become overinflated. Wages are typically the last thing to rise...but something is different here...
The government's "basket of goods" used to calculate inflation is blatantly false and misleading, as are its unemployment numbers (look at U3, not the cooked statistics you hear on the news that were called out by Gallup's top guy). Particularly in a state like California where most of the population lives in a few densely-populated areas with horrible traffic and ever-rising rents and house prices, inflation has already greatly impacted individuals. The federal government has already encouraged this by making the FHA loan conforming limit different for high-priced California areas. Between this and speculators buying and sitting on houses as investments, the average slug has zero change of owning a home and struggles even to rent due to the growing techie population.
The difference is that the gap in overinflated places like California has been extended beyond any reasonable means by expansion of debt. It's all about the monthly payment for a good, not the total amount out of your pocket for that good irrespective of repairs and devaluation. Between the large bank failures and the constant pumping of the money supply, it appears that the debtors will win and the savers will lose at the expense of substantial amounts of inflation simply because compensation for productivity has to be based on something somewhat tangible, even if it's intellectual property. That underpinning simply isn't there. This is a giant souffle that will be hardened into place from the top and pull the bottom up with it.
So yes, raise the minimum wage if you will. But those prices will be passed along to consumers. Those in LA and the rest of California and like places should get used to $9-$10 McDonald's meals and $2 cans of soda and $2.50 for a basic pack of gum. Other than austerity and contraction (which may cycle multiple times between inflation before all is said and done), this was the only possible outcome whose chickens appear now to be coming home to roost. Welcome to the new normal, with effectively no consolation for the minimum wage earners.
> We're trying to optimize something in a very complex system
Yes! You're starting out well.
> If I'm running a business, and my payroll increases 30% while sales remain flat, I have two options: 1) slow or stop hiring, cut staff, or even go out of business;
Aaaaand... you crashed into the water. Raising wages increases productivity, demonstrably so: http://www.raisetheminimumwage...
Of course, as said, this only 'works' if the wage was abysmally low to begin with (which is true in this case). If you're already paying your workers $100/hr, paying them $200/hr is likely not to do much, but going from $5/hr to $10/hr is going to do a lot.
There are many reasons for this. Low-paid workers often lose productivity due to working multiple jobs or making non-optimal life decisions to save money. Employee theft and misbehavior goes down. Job satisfaction (and the resulting increase in productivity) goes up. There are a lot of other positive effects.
> I think it will largely end up being a feel-good measure that well-off, well-meaning people can use to congratulate themselves about
I actually agree with you a little bit here. But that's life.
A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
It can be, but it doesn't necessarily have to. Probably the key aspect is whether it's merely a supplement, or something that is enough to live on by itself. As things currently are, people need to work to survive (at least in the USA). For the sake of argument, let's say there was a program that gave everyone enough to pay for essentials (basic food, basic housing, minor entertainment) - in that scenario, no one has to work, so they can easily tell businesses that don't want to pay them enough for their time to shove it. In such a scenario, you could freely do away with minimum wage laws, because everyone would be free to set the value of their time, in ways they can't possibly do now.
There have historically been two problems for achieving this, that are somewhat intertwined. One, where does the money come from, and two, what happens if too many people decide not to work. As technology advances though, both of these are going to become increasingly solvable as we replace human labor with automation/robotics as the primary source of production. Put another way, if robots do all the work, we're not worried that any number of humans aren't working, because the small number we need will be easily found in those who find it rewarding. As for how you pay for it, you take a portion of the money that each robot's activity earns, and use that to pay everyone, since we'll need people who can buy what the robots make. Market economies require demand as well as supply, after all.
Hope they manage it as well as illegal immigrate.....err yeah. Hope they manage as well as the electrical grid....oh wait. Hope they manage it as well as the highway system....hmmmmm. Hope they manage it as well as the water supply.......well fuck.
Texas.
I'm starting to think that it's by design because every misconception is in favor of 'government' and people being ruled by force.
Watch Tom Woods dispel these myths
and one more
Liberty.
While you're at it, also explain why businesses would pay $15/h for a worker who doesn't increase revenue by significantly more than $15 for each hour he works.
Work is fungible. Perhaps you had said worker hammering roofing nails manually and after the wage increase you decide to buy a nail gun to increase their productivity. In fact historically union shops have lead the way in increases in productivity for exactly this reason. This is well documented.
The reason is because only a relative few readers are qualified to discuss the latest in astrophysics, let's say, but anyone can jump in and talk about politics.
Therein lies the problem.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
the problem is mcdonalds are usually franchises, not corp owned. so while that establishment gets treated as big business, it in reality is a mom and pop business.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
In order to pay the McDonald's worker $15.00 an hour, they will have to basically double all of their prices.
hilarious
" In general, McDonald’s franchisees pay about 20 percent in labor costs, according to Richard Adams, a consultant out of San Diego who works with McDonald’s operators."
"Thus, doubling those salaries would push that Big Mac cost up 80 cents."
What happens to those who were making $15/hr or $16/hr? They're likely frequenting places full of minimum wage workers and their costs will now rise - inevitably - to at least some degree because of this. Further, they've all now been reduced to minimum wage (or close thereto) by the stroke of a pen.
Beyond that, how many jobs will now cost enough that automating them starts to make good financial sense? How many people with little to no skills - especially those without a good education who are most in need of steady legal employment - will find that their lack of marketable skills make them not worth hiring at this higher price point?
This is the kind of feel-good thing that bring down the middle class, raises some in the lower class (those lucky enough to ride the wave), and leaves behind large swaths of the most vulnerable people. What's going to happen is that people with little to no marketable skills in surrounding areas will get hired at the state or Federal minimum wage, gain some valuable experience, become more valuable employees, and then move or commute into LA to take jobs from poor, undereducated residents. This is an anti-poor measure masquerading as a hand-up. It will drive the middle class further down the chain (by negatively impacting their purchasing power), reduce the number of available jobs for everyone (and especially for residents), and drive many of the poor right into the ground.
Mark my words, within 5 years of this taking effect, all or nearly all indicators of poverty will worsen in LA.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
You know, when that story aired on Fox News, some people have actually went and asked the owners of those closing restaurants whether it's due to the minimum wage. And they have only found one place where that was a factor - and even that one has, ironically, not been in the original report.
At the same time, several new restaurants have opened, or are still planning to open, in the same timeframe.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ri...
You're right, let's get ahead of the game now and make the minimum wage in LA $1,000/hr. Better yet, do it at the Federal level.
That should solve all the problems, right? Everyone will be rich!
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
One item not discussed is how this is a benefit for tax collectors and a much larger hit on employers than just the hourly wage difference. Wages account for about 70% of employers labor costs (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm).
Consider just payroll taxes. A person making $8/hour working costs their employer $8.61 after the 7.65% FICA taxes ($0.61 goes to the taxman). Raise that wage to $15 and the cost to the employer is $16.15 ($1.15 goes to the taxman).
Then there's additional costs pegged to wages, such as UI insurance "premiums" and workers comp. In California UI insurance has a maximum cost, but runs up to 6.2% on first $7000 of wages before maxing out. In California, employers spend $3.48 in workers comp cost per $100 in wages paid.
Benefits employers paid (vacation, sick days) account for about $2.16 per hour worked on average (about 6.9% of average hourly wage).
Raising the minimum wage entails all those additional costs too, so jumping someone from $8/hr to $15/hr changes the costs to the employer from about $10.40 to about $19.50 (assuming 30% of labor costs are non-wage). It's not a $7 additional cost, but a $9.10 additional cost (of which the majority of the difference goes into the state tax coffers *before* the wages are subjected to the income tax and sales taxes).
Because the manager knows that if he fires that worker, he shrinks his own little empire by one worker?
Spoken like who has NEVER actually had an employee. Every small business owner I know hates having employees.
Employees add stress. The only reason a business hires people is because they either can't do it all on their own or
because employees make them more money than they cost. That spread doesn't have to be much. If you have 20
employees and each employee makes you $1/hour more than you pay them then assuming you are working yourself
you are doing pretty good. Now, if minimum wage jumps by $5 per hour then that $1 per hour profit is gone and you
either charge more or you fire that employee and figure out how to do it without. I've met many a small business
owners who have talked about getting rid of their employees and turning away work just because the amount of extra
money an employee brings in is barely worth the headache of having ermployees. A massive wage hike would
make that a lot easier. One such company that did just that was Churchill Trucklines from a town near me. The
workers went on strike and demanded more money and the owner said screw it I don't need this headache and
layed off all 2000 employees.
Yes, and the riots in the streets of Paris combined with debts so bad the EU is rejecting their budgets and forcing them to reduce their spending ought to tell us all we need to know about that brilliant example.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
meanwhile the government keeps paying for the meals of walmart employees
Maybe, if it stopped, Walmart would have to pay their employees enough to eat.
Just a thought.
(While you're at it, also explain why businesses would pay $15/h for a worker who doesn't increase revenue by significantly more than $15 for each hour he works.)
If your business requires paying wages that are so low that your workers can't make a living and to survive are still welfare and foodstamps (that my tax dollars pay for) despite working full time then your business plan is broken.
Or in many cases, the worker does increase the company's revenue by by more than $15 for each hour he/she works but they pay them less and pocket the difference (e.g. Walmart and other big box stores) and by paying lower wages and making other taxpayers make up the difference the owners of the company just get richer. That's why the Walton family has more wealth than 40% of Americans combined (that's 129 MILLION Americans). We're talking about a company whose executives take separate private jets to the same meeting just for fun to see who can get there faster. A company whose chairman (Sam Walton's oldest son) is only in the office a few times a month, and spends the rest of his time taking his private jet from his home in the Colorado mountains to go cycling in France, or hunting geese in Canada, or bio-safaris in South America, yet pays his workers so little that even though they work full time they can't afford rent and food. Are you still going to tell me that company can't afford to pay its workers a wage they can live off of?
When minimum labor costs get too high for valuable or popular work, we end up with a lot of "volunteers." This happens all the time in science and medicine. In general, minimum wage hasn't had an impact on this (yet). Young scientists understand that working on a high profile project or in a "real world" clinic is good for your career. There's already enough downward pressure on scientific wages to prevent even the most jaded PI from offering a minimum wage position to paid technical staff. That all said, the average (non-graduate, but paid) student lab worker at UCLA makes $14/hr, with a $9/hr minimum. $15/hr is above the minimum salary for graduate researchers on campus. (Not picking on UCLA, their salary info is public and easy to search.)
So, we're getting into territory where minimum wage laws are putting cost pressure on scientific work. Interesting and a bit sad.
Will this even apply to schools? The federal and state governments usually don't apply all labor laws to universities.
I suppose University of Washington has the same issues. It would be nice to think that some of the more bloated administrative budgets would take a haircut to pay the student workers a bit more. It would be very sad if it simply became normal for young scientists to "work" for free their first few years.
I'm saying it's crazy to pay someone 15 dollars an hour to ask someone if they want fries with their Big Mac. Kids hold most minimum wage jobs. People start at the bottom. If you're 50 years old and you're still slinging fries and soda pop then you're just not trying. The fucking deboners at the local chicken processing plant down the road where I live make 4 dollars over minimum wage. The guy changing tires at walmart does too. Minimum wage jobs are not meant for kids or people that have zero motivation. Hell, my lawn guy makes more fucking money than I do and most of it's tax free. My daughter straight out of high school got a job at Lowes making 50 cents over minimum wage. After two months they gave here a 2 dollar raise. She left there after 6 months more and got a job at Frito Lay putting chips in a box. Stuffing boxes with chips now for nearly 15 dollars an hour and that was back in 2002. I made almost twice that but I was in my 40's then and she had much better benefits. I don't really care if they jack the minimum wage up though as I've seen it done so many times over the years. Neither side's predictions come true. The people that say it'll make things better are wrong and the people screaming it'll destroy the economy are wrong. It always balances out after a little while.
their customers will have more money so they will be able to afford the price increases.
I disagree. Say someone earns someone earns $60 per day before the wage increase and $120 per day afterward. A product costs $60 before the price increase and $120 afterward. What can the customer afford in each case?
Are you willing to prove your point by taking a pay cut to 3 dollars per hour?
Probably not. The minimum wage will kill us is just as valid as trickle down economics, and job creator theory. As in not at all.
Very seldom is prosperity achieved through poverty. Do you have any examples?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Is where they indicated that neighboring cities must do the same or businesses will migrate away.
That, in a nutshell, just described democratic federal policy. It only works if there's no escape.
Bullshit article...
The minimum wage for Seattle isn't $15, it's $10 or $11.
It won't be $15 for several more years (between 2017 to 2021 depending on various thing like size of the company, type of compensation, medical benefits, etc.).
Source: http://murray.seattle.gov/minimumwage/
All government laws are ultimately enforced by violence or threat of violence, often referred to as "at gunpoint".
No voluntary, honest, harmless transaction between mentally competent adults should be prohibited by law.
No single person has the right to point a gun at me and say "you must pay him at least $15.00 an hour." A group does not gain new rights by adding members, so no group, howsoever formed, even if it calls itself a government, has the right to point a gun at me and say "you must pay him at least $15.00 an hour."
Minimum wages laws are a moral obscenity, and have no place in a civil society.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
if you are very, very lucky. If _anything_ goes wrong your whole life collapses like a house of cards.
Oh, and Jobs won't migrate away. This is the first thing everyone who perpetuates the race to the bottom (tm) likes to quote. It doesn't happen because California is a _nice_ place to live and the rich like having services. But don't take my word for it, go look at Kansas' unemployment. It's twice the national average after all their "free market" reforms.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Poverty cannot be legislated away. Poverty can only be produced away. Did anybody here ask themselves a simple question, why is the government raising minimum wage to 15USD/hour BY 2020 AND NOT TOMORROW?
Because they KNOW it will hurt the economy, but it is a populous move (designed specifically for the economically illiterates, just like you), to make it look like the government does something, while the horrible economic effects of the actual increase will be disguised by being stretched in time over the next 5 years.
"Trickle down" economics means economics of savings and investment and "job creator theory" means that investments and businesses create jobs. That is how money is made, by creating it by production and production is business. Consumption is a trivial consequence of production, nothing else and without something being produced first it can never be consumed at all.
You can't handle the truth.
So the mistake your side makes is misunderstanding that at every incremental raise of the min wage, jobs are lost. It doesn't matter that workers have more money to spend, unless that increase in volume leads to inflation of prices, this resulting in Sally's output being worth $14+ from inflation. But your side insists min wage increases do not cause inflation and only lead to higher demand (volume). If volume demanded increases without inflation, that actually has no impact because Sally's company will not produce more units at negative margin. In fact Sally's company will produce less than before the increase in demand.
And if it does lead to inflation, Sally may not get canned, but that is a regressive cost that will hurt many lower wage workers and definitely the unemployed, whose benefits are not indexed to local inflation.
http://www.seattletimes.com/se...
http://www.cepr.net/blogs/cepr...
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
In a sense, minimum wage is just a best effort to re-balance the market distortion introduced by the social safety net. Were there no net, people being paid less than it costs to live would be forced to quit either because their health would decline from the privation or because they would be too busy dealing drugs and robbing people to show up for work. Then wages would go up to bring people in who won't quit, go to jail, or die or the business would fold up and go away.
Since we find high crime, shanty towns, and riots undesirable, we introduced the social safety net. A side effect is that it becomes possible to capture people in a situation where they are paid less than it costs to live and the taxpayers get stuck for the rest. The minimum wage seeks to patch that up to the extent possible.
The sad reality is that people were forced to accept minimum wage jobs in the big crash and many are still stuck there because Wall Street recovered a hell of a lot faster than Main Street.
the government collects 30 times as much in taxes in CONSTANT DOLLARS as they did in 1940
Bullshit the inflation from 1940 is already ~15 times. In fact looking at your next sentences:
Now, they ran a deficit in 1940 as well, but let's think about this for a minute. If $135 Billion in 1940 would have been enough to make ends meet, then how come with three times the population now, it takes $3.2 trillion?
Because 135 billion alone in 1940 is 2.2 trillion to 2.3 trillion of today in constant dollar. Any CPI calculator will confirm that baring a few % +/-. The delta of 900 million is from federal programs which did NOT exists in 1940. From environmental protection, drug enforcement, NASA, EPA, etc...etc...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
The ignorance of this one is strong.
Sorry bud, but the Unions had literally zero to do with Hostess problems.
1) Hostess had been on the verge of bankruptcy multiple times prior to them going under.
2) More importantly, the Unions had already taken multiple paycuts to keep the company afloat.
It wasn't till the management asked for another paycut and got it only to vote themselves a 300% pay RAISE that the Unions refused another paycut as the management had shown their hand and their intentions of just bleeding the company dry instead of working to keep it going.
Hostess Unions actually helped that company, it was systemic failure of management over the course of years over years that killed Hostess.
You're right, let's get ahead of the game now and make the minimum wage in LA $1,000/hr. Better yet, do it at the Federal level
You see often cited as conservative/republican mouth point. But this is an utter stupid viewpoint - why it is modded as insightful is beyond me. Interesting maybe at most.
The reason why this is stupid is as follow : when you rise minimum wage you rise slightly the living of people but you also partially rise inflation. Rise too much and the inflation will eat most of it. So the economic of it is to rise only slightly and try to minimize inflation. Rise it to 1000$ or 100000000$ and you got hyper inflation and your $ is worth as much as zimbabwe dollar. That type of stupid argument (1000$ hourly wage) by the way is the same slippery slope argument republican make for gay mariage "but then after that they will want to marry horse or multiple people or children"
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
If your business requires paying wages that are so low that your workers can't make a living and to survive are still welfare and foodstamps (that my tax dollars pay for) despite working full time then your business plan is broken.
You assume those are the only two options...
Lets say the min wage was raised to $30/hr tomorrow...
Does this mean McDonald's is screwed? Does this mean that all current McDonald's workers get a GREAT PAY RAISE?
No, of course not... It suddenly would make sense to completely automate a McDonald's restaurant, you'd have one or two $30/hr managers and the rest would be robots.
Yes, yes, you say that people would be needed to service and maintain the robots. Yes, but most of the people losing their jobs aren't remotely qualified for that job and you won't need a million of them.
---
I challenge you to look up the number of people who work in fast food in this country, imagine if half of them lost their jobs to robots tomorrow.
What would they all do?
I am an employer and I actually like my employees a lot. They are smart, they work hard, coming to the office every day is basically a joy. I try to make their life as easy and as productive as possible, and I pay them as much as I can. They know this, and this works pretty well.
I believe that if every employer actually saw their employees as human beings who are doing the best they can, and treat them accordingly, the world would be a much better place.
Because any change in the minimum wage requires preparation by people it affects. You ignoring that fact and instantly leaping to the conclusion it's because "they" "know" it will hurt the economy only serves to make you look like a paranoid nutcase. Seriously. Tricke-down economics has been shown to not work. It's as if you are just saying what you've heard others claim. Tragic.
We need more of this around the world. It can't be that people work 3 jobs and barely get by why others buy a new car every year or a new cellphone or whatnot and do no more important stuff than the cleaning lady or the cook. ... And no, shoving around papers or hacking up the next bazillionth Twitter or IRC clone or setting up the next Wordpress installation that's going to be totally abandoned 15 months in is not more imporant than cleaning. Emphasis mine!
If it's not worth paying 15$ it's probably not worth being done by a human in the first place and should be left or automated. And if you're not ready to spend 15$ but insist you have cleaning personell you're an asocial *sshole and ought to clean up your own dirt.
My 3 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
There aren't that many high paying wage or wage that pay above 15$ an hour and there is already a fierce competition for them.
Companies cannot find enough people with even modest intellectual skills to hire (and retain) for even modestly skilled jobs with much better than minimum wages paid. Hell, there are landscaping companies around here who will pay $20/hour for anyone that will consistently show up to shovel. Costco hires even the most basic, unskilled shelf-stackers for well above minimum wage (closer to $19).
Are you one of those which think the poor are lazy ?
Actually, in many cases that's exactly the problem. But kids born in to families where doing the work needed to become a decent high school graduate is considered unimportant or too much trouble have lazy parents to thank for that - the kids themselves usually don't know better until it's already too late to form decent habits.
You need money for a proper education
No, no you don't. The taxpayers around you will pay for your education through high school. And if you've don't anything even close to working hard, you'll have the academic background needed to get anything from substantial subsidies to full scholarships in higher education. I worked while in college, to have money. Did you?
Frankly your kind of thought are so short sighted , you should get glasses for your brain.
You have no idea where prosperity comes from, apparently.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Poverty cannot be legislated away. Poverty can only be produced away. Did anybody here ask themselves a simple question, why is the government raising minimum wage to 15USD/hour BY 2020 AND NOT TOMORROW?
Because they KNOW it will hurt the economy, but it is a populous move (designed specifically for the economically illiterates, just like you), to make it look like the government does something, while the horrible economic effects of the actual increase will be disguised by being stretched in time over the next 5 years.
"Trickle down" economics means economics of savings and investment and "job creator theory" means that investments and businesses create jobs. That is how money is made, by creating it by production and production is business. Consumption is a trivial consequence of production, nothing else and without something being produced first it can never be consumed at all.
...and without consumption; nothing will be produced.
Standing by for the "No True Scotsman" arguments when we ask for the proof of how many jobs were created, or how much of that trickle made it to the bottom.
Trickle down is based on the idea that if you have ten dogs, and give the fattest one a hot dog, he'll share it with the other nine..
And it still doesn't change the fact that some employers are using the blatantly socialist tactic of having the government subsidize their employees.
Notice no one responds to that, merely spews out more neocon dogma.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
LOL! Wipes tear from eye. Wow. Just wow.
That is so wrong. This has been tried for the last number of decades. It absolutely does not work. This was justification for tax breaks for the rich. As it turns out the rich manage to pretty much stay rich by not spending their money. We see today more than ever before a disparity between the rich and poor. That whole 1% thing remember? They fact that you mention "Trickle Down Economics" and in the same breath call someone else "economic illiterate" is just marvelous. I bet you think that the invisible hand of the market solves all issues as well?
While you are right, in one sense, governments are pretty limited in what they can really achieve, they do have an important part to play in regulation, if only to try to prevent groups of people from gaming the system to further enriching themselves at the unfair cost of others. One can argue how successful they are in that, particularly in the USA, where the regulators are in bed with the industries they are supposed to be regulating, receiving monetary donations for favorable considerations.
As to the minimum wage increase. It has little to do with economics. It has more to do with the protection of the most vulnerable citizens. One might argue about the what the ultimate role of government really is, but generally speaking taking care of those people who make up the nation certainly qualifies. In a secondary way, it is also a cost saving measure if said government ends up having to pay for it one way or another, through welfare, or other programs. The whole story about the minimum wage workers at Walmart being the biggest food stamp users, where essentially Walmart is gaming the system for more profit at the expense of the general tax payer.
In summery: Trickle Down economics is complete BS, and you are either A) an idiot or, B) wealthy and it is in your best interests, and who cares about anyone else, the nation you belong to included.
No. There has to be a need before you get production. The need comes from customers, what customers can pay influences the prices of goods, what they pay is what they have in their pocket, what they have in their pocket is influenced by what they get paid.
It is a circle, but the driving factor is a need from a customer for a product, not the fact that a product has been produced. Customers have less need for non-essentials when they do not have the money to spend on them, then less money is there to pay the customer and its a downward spiral.
You can produce all the art you want, but if there is no need for the product and no expendable cash to buy the product then you will not be a 'job creator' no matter how much you produce or how efficiency (re: how little you pay your employees) you produce it.
Regardless of where minimum wage goes or does not go. Labour needs to be valued higher. Over the last few decades we have increased in efficiencies so that we need less labour to produce more, though we have not increased what we value labour at. So we have been able to produce more, from less (both labour and materials), but that trade off has not helped increase labour costs.
A re-balancing needs to happen where we value labour more than we do other costs of business, then maybe everything might slowly shift back into focus where Walmart employes can afford to shop at Walmart for the goods that cost very little to make in the first place.
It would be interesting to see the ratio of labour costs vs material costs it took to produce various types of objects in the past vs now... I realize its hard to compare on a quality perspective as many items we use day to day are much more productive than those in the past due to invention/inovation, but I'm sure there are some examples and I would think the ratio has moved towards more cost on the materials and less on labour than they did in the past.
The root of the problem is that low wage employees are often poor negotiators, and are not in a position of strength to begin with. They are easily taken advantage of by explotative employers, and landlords. Some checks and balances need to be in place to protect this class of workers, but there also needs to be incentives for the minimum wage worker to improve thier own marketability in the job market.
The biggest expense for a minimum wage worker is housing.
Just rasing the minimum wage will cause rents to rise as landlords will be in a position of strength. Some areas have rent control which would mitigate this,
but I would expect landlords would increase rents in the low end of the market to capture some of this money.
Minimum wage coupled with rent control might be workable if food and transportation costs are kept marginal.
All of this artifical control will mess with the markets, but markets can't be left to 100% capitalist control. There have to be limits.