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Ask Slashdot: Can SaaS Be Both Open Source and Economically Viable?

An anonymous reader writes: The CTO behind Lucidchart, an online diagramming app, recently cited the open source rbush project as an invaluable tool for helping implement an "in-memory spatial index" that "increased spatial search performance by a factor of over 1,000 for large documents." My question is this: what risks does a SaaS company like Lucidchart face in making most of their own code public, like Google's recent move with Chrome for Android, and what benefits might be gained by doing so? Wouldn't sharing the code just generate more users and interest? Even if competitors did copy it, they'd always be a step behind the latest developments. Have a question for Slashdot's readers? Take a look at other recent questions first to see if someone else has had a similar question. And if not, ask away! The more details and context you include, the more likely your question will be selected.

49 comments

  1. Don't you get it? by For+a+Free+Internet · · Score: 1, Funny

    Capitalism is not viable. Workers revolution is our only hope. Only the dictatorship of the proletariat can open the door to the communist future. Otherwise we are condemned to barbarism by the death agony of capitalism.

    --
    UNITE with the Campaign for a Free Internet because today, our future begins with tomorrow!
    1. Re:Don't you get it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Communism is not viable. Free market is our only hope. Only the dictatorship of the elite can open the door to the capitalist future. Otherwise we are condemned to barbarism by the death agony of communism.

      Cycled that for you.

  2. Fsck your hippy dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HTTP is open source, imagine the net without it. We end up with more not less.

    1. Re:Fsck your hippy dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Where can I download the source for HTTP? I have been looking all over for it!

    2. Re:Fsck your hippy dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you're kidding but, regardless, for anyone who reads this and asks the same question, there is no source. It's a protocol and there are many HTTP stacks that can use it but you cannot actually compile HTTP. There never has been source to compile and there never will be. It's not a program.

      The protocol is open and anyone can write a HTTP communications stack. For more information on the protocol, read the RFC 1945, RFC 6265, RFC 7230, RFC 7231, RFC 7232, RFC 7233, RFC 7234 and RFC 7235.

  3. GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by tepples · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The GNU Affero General Public License version 3 was designed to preserve user freedom and flexibility even when software runs on a leased server. It ensures that users can obtain and improve the software that they are using even when they are currently running it on someone else's computer. That way, if a particular service goes out of business, its customers can spin up an instance on their own servers with little interruption.

    1. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a reasonably good solution.

      But here's the thing with a GPL business model in general: if the code is really, really, clean and easy to understand, then it's probably also easy to knock off without violating copyright. So it doesn't pay for providers to make their source code TOO clean.

      BTW ever take a look at the glibc source code? You'll see what I mean... it looks like it was crafted by an army of programmers over 30 years, which it probably was.

    2. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by jopsen · · Score: 1

      But here's the thing with a GPL business model in general: if the code is really, really, clean and easy to understand, then it's probably also easy to knock off without violating copyright.

      I call BS... No non-trivial code base with 1M+ lines of code is clean... And a clean room rewrite if that is what you argue here is never trivial.

      That said, yes, if an existing SaaS project is too easy to deploy on your own what is the benefit of buying it.. To me zero maintenance is key. Either way, I don't believe there are many proprietary projects that are clean enough to be easily redeployed either...

    3. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by i.r.id10t · · Score: 2

      The "know it from inside out" support, etc.

      Same reason people use companies like 1and1 for webhosting or one of the companies that provide Big Blue Button instances - sure, anyone can get a VPS or a dedicated 'net connection and server machine(s) and install Linux, Apache, PHP, etc. and run a site or a mail server or BBB instance. All with Free (and free) code. But not everyone is an expert at doing it, or keepign it up and running, or configuring it just right, or integrating your authentication, or answering end-users support questions or ....

      And the same reason groups use vendors to host non-free stuff even when your license allows you to download and run a local version. The college I work for did it with our last learning management system - sure, we had a local instance, but it was used for testing API code, new features, confirming bugs and bug fixes the company announced, etc. Our students and instructors didn't even know about it - they only used the vendor hosted instance.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    4. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean knocked off by competitors, some with deeper pockets, not by the customers.

    5. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are valuing artificially scarce things. The code is not scarce, it is infitinely reproducible. What is scarce is the ability to create new code. That is not extremely scarce, but it is scarce enough to monetize. If my competitiors have to contribute to my own codebase then we are all contributing to our own success utilizing the scarcity of our (specialised) labor. We can all specialize in providing improvements that benefit the others, and monetize that labor.

      Itelectual Property is Artificial Scarcity and thus it is untennable in today's unfettered information economy. Intellectual Property (copyright and patents) are responsible for piracy. No piracy can exist if I arrange a payment agreement up front for my labor, like ALL OTHER labor industries do (like mechanics). Your move.

    6. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you've been reading Tech Dirt for so long you've lost the ability to think. Magical reality doesn't count.

      Google has a monopoly on its search engine, Amazon has a monopoly on its ecommerce software and AWS, MS has a monopoly on MS Office. Apple has a monopoly on the iPhone. Do they have competitors? Hell yeah. How effective are they? Go look at the market caps for GOOG, AMZN, MSFT, and AAPL. Untenable? Not if you're an investor in one of those companies.

    7. Re:GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Same reason people use companies like 1and1 for webhosting or one of the companies that provide Big Blue Button instances - sure, anyone can get a VPS or a dedicated 'net connection and server machine(s) and install Linux, Apache, PHP, etc. and run a site or a mail server or BBB instance. All with Free (and free) code. But not everyone is an expert at doing it, or keepign it up and running, or configuring it just right, or integrating your authentication, or answering end-users support questions or ....

      Well, the enlightened groups do.

      The un-enlightened see it as an opportunity to save money - why pay some company money to host the stuff when you can do it yourself?

      The downside is, of course, maintenance, and while you pay a vendor to do it for you, most "DIY-ers" budget $0 for it, which leads to all sorts of interesting security vulnerabilities. even today Heartbleed is still around, serving up production content by people who don't care, other than they're "beating the man" by taking 100% of the cut.

      Penny wise, pound (or dollar?) foolish.

  4. Not if open source, but how by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

    If you open your source, and leverage the community so they feel they have a voice, it can lead to better code, and wide adoption. If you lock down submissions so you can have a paid tier, then welcome to fork town.

    1. Re:Not if open source, but how by ranton · · Score: 1

      If you lock down submissions so you can have a paid tier, then welcome to fork town.

      Seems that MySQL did quite well even while obtaining ownership of most submissions so they could have their paid tier help fund further development. The forking didn't really start until Oracle purchased the software, and that was over a decade after open source developers had been contributing the a project with the type of license you seem to think can't work in the open source community.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    2. Re:Not if open source, but how by kaepspubes · · Score: 1

      And now that mariadb is a fork of mysql, monty can't close any part of the DB. Of course, no one should be using mysql or mariadb as they are horrible pieces of shit.

  5. sunk so low by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    now just another link aggregator to contentless technical marketing blog posts

  6. Customers... by MetricT · · Score: 1

    Software has zero intrinsic value. It doesn't generate a single cent (unless you've written a BitCoin miner, I guess).

    Customers, on the other hand, can generate lots of value if they use your software. Customers and the potential for more customers are usually the reason small software firms get acquired for Rockefeller money by the Google's and IBM's of the world (the other reasons are usually acquiring patents or the talent of the development team itself.) The software itself is rarely the target.

    Open-sourcing the software increases the odds of someone using their software, either because it's "free", or because having the code in hand keeps them out of trouble if the company were to fold. And even if they're using it for free, it increases the odds that they would be willing to use a paid version at a later date, which is valuable.

    And companies pay for reliability, both for necessity and so they have someone to pass the blame to if something fails. Even if someone got a copy of their code and decided to try their own business, are you going to trust them over the original creators when it comes to your job security?

    1. Re:Customers... by paulrrogers · · Score: 2

      Software has zero intrinsic value. It doesn't generate a single cent (unless you've written a BitCoin miner, I guess).

      Video games generate 20+ billion a year and downloadable ones are comprised entirely of software.

  7. It depends on the code by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Google's Chrome would be a good example. Google's business is not selling browsers. Their business is selling advertising. Many of the services they offer to attract eyeballs (and data) for their business require a good browser. So they don't lose any revenue by giving their browser away and letting other people build browsers based on the code, in fact the more modern browsers out there that're all compatible the better for Google. In that situation it makes sense to open-source their Chrome code. For any business, if the code's utility code that's necessary for the business but not a significant part of the parts that separate your offering from everyone else's it'd make sense to open-source it. You don't lose anything, you gain brownie points, and you may be able to use the bug fixes and enhancements others make without having to spend your own resources on them.

    You don't, however, see Google open-sourcing the details of their analytics algorithms, or the exact code that drives PageRank, or the other things that set them apart from other search engines. Those things they need to keep secret because if they got out Google would lose a competitive advantage. Open-sourcing code like that would cost a business revenue, so it shouldn't be open-sourced.

    1. Re:It depends on the code by paulrrogers · · Score: 1

      Google's Chrome would be a good example. Google's business is not selling browsers. ... they don't lose any revenue by giving their browser away

      There was a time when browsers were sold on store shelves where I worked; namely Netscape. Today we live in a world where people are accustomed to getting them for free. This is not necessarily better as one can see trying to use Chrome without sending private information to Google.

    2. Re:It depends on the code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netscape tried to sell browsers and failed. Failed due to free alternatives. One might argue that IE being bundled was the main reason, but all other OS had free browsers (maybe not as full featured as netsoape though)

    3. Re:It depends on the code by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      It's not that big a deal to set Chrome up to not send data to Google. A couple of minutes on the settings page does the trick. Of course if you go ahead and use Google for search or the like then all the tweaking in the world won't keep Google from getting your requests...

  8. Sell the Sevice by davydagger · · Score: 2

    Its simple, you use somthing like the Affero license so no one can make changes that you can't access. Since anyone can try, whatever good ideas other people have you can re-incorporate, so you can potentially have a far bigger unpaid developer base. If your product is known to attract hacker types as customers, they can act as force multipliers, easily. As compared to a closed program, you'll have more eyes on the code. Its also your code, and you know it better than anyone else.

    Then you simply focus on having the best quality of service. You can copy software, you can't copy quality of service.

    Combine these two, its not as easy as you think to compete against someone else with their own software.

    You also have your brand name and reputation. which is built on that quality of service. Despite the fact that CentOS is given away for free, people pay good money for RHEL subscriptions, and RH is an economicly viable company.

    The support is where the money is. The actual product is a loss leader.

  9. Apache HTTP server and client by tepples · · Score: 1

    Where can I download the source for HTTP?

    One well-known HTTP server is Apache HTTP Server. You can find source code and Windows binaries at Apache's web site. Apache also offers HttpComponents, which implements the client side of an HTTP connection.

    1. Re:Apache HTTP server and client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      pretty sure that's a whoosh...

      -different AC

    2. Re: Apache HTTP server and client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are implementations for a public protocol. Without interoperability, http would be useless.They are not examples of a private corporation opening up their source to spawn competitors. Why should a company share their secret sauce? That's just stupid.

    3. Re: Apache HTTP server and client by tepples · · Score: 1

      Without interoperability, http would be useless.

      And that's why it's useful to have a free reference implementation of the public protocol, to make sure third-party clients can interoperate.

    4. Re: Apache HTTP server and client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does that have to do with releasing code for a private and proprietary system? A reference implementation of a public protocol is one thing while releasing a reference for a proprietary system makes no sense except to foster copying of the business model.

  10. Chrome is a interesting example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "like Google's recent move with Chrome for Android"

    Chrome for Windows, Max and Linux has long been almost completely open source, known as Chromium for the free edition. It's only recently that they have done the same thing for Android. My theory is it's only been a time consuming task to create a easily accessible repo for the code they are allowed to open source while being able to compile their closed source equivalent just as quickly but I don't work for Google so I'm only guessing.

    Chrome and Chromium, on the other hand, has been long established and follows, virtually, the same rules and guidelines as Chrome for Android and the OSS edition that Google has just released. Google cannot release all of the code. Some of it rely's on access to proprietary aspects of Google and releasing the code for that would mean releasing details regarding other projects they don't want to open source. Additionally, they have access to third party projects that they are licensed and required not to divulge the details of how to access it from the same level that Chrome is able to.

    Chromium can be downloaded and compiled on it's own and run but run without the proprietary means that Chrome has access to. Because of this, there have been forks of Chromium. I don't know how many off the top of my head but I have remembered reading from time to time about specifically interesting forks of Chromium. Now on one hand, anything forked from Chromium does not have access to the proprietary areas that Chrome does which is one reason that Chrome has marketing advantages over Chromium. On the other hand, anything forked from Chromium will always be a step behind the development of the official Chromium repository. Another point of view would be that Chromium may provide a solid base but developers can now create new features compiled into their fork that Chromium / Chrome would not have immediately available. So Chromium may create the groundwork where developers can create new features without having to build a new browser from the ground up. if Google wanted to use that code than they would have to take the time to compile it into their mainline and test it, QA, debug, etc, etc before it finally made it into the official release and users could use it.

    None of this reflects as either a pro or con to your question nor am I attempting to answer your question but just pointing out some good aspects to consider.

    1. Re:Chrome is a interesting example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just as quickly but I don't work for Google

      "quickly, but".

      Chrome and Chromium, on the other hand, has been long

      "have been".

      Some of it rely's on access to

      "relies".

      proprietary aspects of Google and releasing the code

      "Google, and".

      downloaded and compiled on it's own

      "its".

  11. + User Good Will, - Easy Cloning by paulrrogers · · Score: 2

    Once the novelty of free and open source has worn off the only advantages I can see would be user goodwill and perhaps some modest community contributions. Disadvantages include enabling competitors, devaluing software production, and risk of community backlash should one change models or they disapprove of the license choice. My guess is such companies hope to overcome any competitors by executing well and retaining a first-mover position in the market. They are probably unaware of the macro effects of FOSS on labor, and oblivious to potential community issues.

    1. Re:+ User Good Will, - Easy Cloning by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      My guess is such companies hope to overcome any competitors by executing well and retaining a first-mover position in the market.

      Well, yeah. Isn't this what any company is supposed to try to do?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  12. MariaDB because Oracle does an excrement job by tepples · · Score: 1

    Even if someone got a copy of their code and decided to try their own business, are you going to trust them over the original creators when it comes to your job security?

    MariaDB is a fork of Oracle's MySQL. I guess people are trusting MariaDB in part because Oracle has done an excrement job of security, especially with its Java virtual machine. (Excrement is the opposite of excellent.)

    1. Re:MariaDB because Oracle does an excrement job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Excrement is not the opposite of excellent no matter how much you want it to be and using it as such just sounds puerile.

    2. Re:MariaDB because Oracle does an excrement job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe he meant execrable?

    3. Re: MariaDB because Oracle does an excrement job by corychristison · · Score: 2

      As someone who owns a web hosting business, and recently migrated all of their servers from MySQL to MariaDB. It was the easiest transition we've ever performed. On our cPanel boxes it was done in just a couple of clicks.

      MariaDB really is a drop in replacement for MySQL. They have done an awesome job ensuring its a dead simple upgrade.

      We are currently looking into upgrading our DNS network. We are toying with MariaDB Galera, and PowerDNS. Our initial testing has been very positive.

    4. Re: MariaDB because Oracle does an excrement job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > They have done an awesome job ensuring its a dead simple upgrade.

      Wow imagine that. They forked the code and it's almost like a fucking copy.

      It was an ethically shitty thing to do since no-one forced them to accept Oracle's dime in the first place.

  13. Canvas LMS is open source by JumpSuit+Boy · · Score: 1

    They provide support and hosting both of which you can do yourself. Some schools host it themselves for legal data reasons and some do it if they are in a geo location that Instructure does not provide support in. They explicitly that their business model is providing better support than you or someone else can. SO far they are doing pretty well and because you can host your own copy it is much easier to both test and build integrations. It is also helpful when trying to debug something.

    --
    Oh really?
    1. Re:Canvas LMS is open source by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Ah, not quite. The version you can download from their git repo is NOT the same as what is running if you have a hosting contract with them. And of all of the schools I know of that use Canvas (I'm the Canvas admin for the college I work for) none of them are using a self-hosted version. Not even the schools that have the resources to do so (University of Florida, UCF, etc - and I know the admins there too).

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
  14. Service, not software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hint: the key is in the second "S" in SaaS - Software as a SERVICE.

    If you're open source, that's fine - you're still providing a service to people, and you can monetize that if you're not a fool. If you're selling the service, instead of the software, that fits perfectly well with an Open Source model. Of course, you have to listen to your customers, and provide them with the service they want, too!

    1. Re:Service, not software by NotInHere · · Score: 1

      yes, but once your software becomes open source, your service can be replaced by that oss part and a off the shelf server. Usually, thats cheaper than your price. If its not cheaper, then you don't make money with your service, because your service will use that off the shelf server too. If you open source, you basically give away the additional value of your service for free.

      You can do what facebook and google do of course, and only publish parts of the technology you developed: google published protobuf, facebook a php compiler.

    2. Re:Service, not software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but once your software becomes open source, your service can be replaced by that oss part and a off the shelf server.

      Yes, which is why you continue developing new features and services to add, to retain customers and win new ones - instead of sitting on your ass expecting to live forever off a single piece of software you've written.

      That's where the "service" comes in. The software isn't what you're selling, the *service* is. If you think SaaS is simply about "slap a piece of software on an EC2 instance," then I submit you have know idea what the point of SaaS is.

    3. Re:Service, not software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but

      "Yes".

      and a off the shelf server

      "an off-the-shelf".

      Usually, thats cheaper

      "that's".

      If its not

      "it's".

    4. Re:Service, not software by TheGavster · · Score: 1

      I would think that open-source SaaS products would be, if anything, MORE viable than open-sourcing a traditional, locally-hosted application. The code only gets written once, so the provider isn't really producing a product afterwards. This makes it hard both to keep rivals from releasing the same product, or to charge for the product in the first place. With SaaS, you're providing maintenance, hosting, and reliability to your customer continually. Any competitor would have to do the same thing, keeping the bar to entry high.

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    5. Re:Service, not software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed: know idea Hand in your spelling Nazi card, UND SCHNELL.

    6. Re:Service, not software by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If its not cheaper, then you don't make money with your service, because your service will use that off the shelf server too.

      A few reasons why that's wrong: economies of scale, specialisation, capacity utilisation.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  15. Sounds so fun. by bhlowe · · Score: 1

    Yah, let me write the code, install it, host it, attract customers, maybe charge for it, give away the source code, watch my market share erode, then try to pay for tech support, or try to add value added features or "in service" purchases. Sounds like fun! Or you could do all of the above and not give your source code away. Hmm.. let me think about that.

  16. Other "cloud" hosts exist now by tepples · · Score: 1

    Amazon has a monopoly on its ecommerce software and AWS

    Amazon Marketplace, yes. AWS, not so much. AWS is just "cloud" in its original sense of rapid provisioning of server leases. True, Amazon pioneered the "cloud" category as it was trying to find a year-round use for server capacity that it uses for Amazon Marketplace during the American toy buying season every December. But there are plenty of other big scalable hosting providers by now, such as Microsoft Azure and Google App Engine.