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Fake Mobile Phone Towers Found To Be "Actively Listening In" On Calls In UK
New submitter nickweller writes: More than 20 Stingray fake phone towers which can collect data from passing devices and listen in on calls have been discovered operating in the UK. The Metropolitan Police have refused to say who is controlling the IMSI catchers, also known as Stingrays, or what is being done with the information they are gathering. Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said: "If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.”
Anyone here can comment on using a cellphone booster to nullify stingrays?
Translation: "It is important that we be completely transparent on this single fact: we are not transparent, and we will do bad things, because reasons."
"If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible."
Sure, we're doing a lot of bad illegal shit, but we don't have time to do as much bad illegal shit as you think we are.
Imagine if that logic were applied by a bank robber: Sure, I robbed the bank, but I didn't have time to steal as much money as you thought I did.
They don't do much intrusion but just a little. Now who could just a little intrusion really hurt if you have nothing to hide?
Categorizing people by various political and ideological inclinations, fapping, gathering "leverage", fapping, obtaining various bits of time and location data to avoid being caught in a web of lies by physical impossibilities when planting evidence to dispose of people "legally", fapping, enhancing and increasing their collections of various phone or IM sex, fapping, revelling in the very fact that they hold such unaccountable power over the worthless rabble they use it on, and general acts of genital self-stimulation.
What NEEDS to be done is a complete, and permanent dismantling of both the towers and their operators, all the way up the chain.
Physically.
I mean, good money was spent putting those up. Seems like it would be a waste to not "actively listen".
Just can't please everyone.
"If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.”
I'm confused. 20 Stringrays in the U.K. And no one should worry because the Chief of Metropolitan Police says they don't have the resources to do as much intrusion as "they" worry about. If that's right - how much less intrusion? Is that because of the 20% budget cuts - or because his area of command is not the entire U.K. (London only, excluding The City of London)? Or maybe because the Metropolitian Police don't have primary access to the Stingray traffic? Is that because the story is wrong - or is one of those Stingrays in The City of London? Is this just bullshit or maybe a ploy to increase funding so that the level of intrusion is something to worry about e.g. if it weren't for the budget cuts he could implement his plan for "total war on crime" and "total policing".
Given the past accuracy of some of the statements from his office I'm still cynical.
It used to be said that 'when America [meaning USA, sorry] sneezes the UK catches cold'. So, as a Londoner, I'm not at all surprised. Probably some of this data [because it's not information] is being 'exported' too, the data version of special rendition.
At the moment our 'imports' are TTIP, private healthcare, GMO crops, US banks, mall-shopping as an activity, cops as thugs, empty celebrity culture, reality TV, US payday lenders [quickquid, for example, is US owned] gangster rap and US style gangs etc. etc. probably because we share a language and to some extent a culture. Two thousand Met [London police] carry arms now too.
Before I'm jumped on, there's lots of things I admire in the US but they are not the things that are making their way into the UK.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.
Based on the fact that there are 20 operating Stingrays I would say that not only is it possible, but you have actually put your resources to good use doing exactly as much intrusion as we're worrying about.
"If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.”
This is still true if for instance the data are sent to the NSA for analysing.
"To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone - to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone: From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink - greetings!"
They probably don't really know. It's probably anyone in the UK or US with a security clearance or who works on the system as an engineer. And what they are doing with it? Who knows? It certainly seems like the politicians don't care, they only care about fake protections against terrorism.
Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
And if terrorists had the resources to do as he claims they would, I would reassure him that it is impossible.
Somehow I don't think he'd accept this reassurance.
So why should we his?
In other words, "
If people think we're trying to screw them as much as possible with the limited resources we have, I would reassure them we are."
The metropolitan police are not responsible for GSM interference
Doing so legally they would be run by Government Communications Headquarters ( GCHQ)
It matters not most UK communications are intercepted quite legally by the NSA and shared back to UK.
They are most likely test towers or towers created by individuals illegally
The British have always allowed intercepts legally
Regards
John Jones
I'm assuming that their ever-so-coy stance on whether or not the stingrays are their stingrays would evaporate rather quickly if somebody were to climb up, cut one down, and make off with it...
Feds have this funny habit of suddenly getting really possessive of things that previously didn't exist if you start touching them.
Last time I checked France was a republic
It has been going on ever since we had kings
The time France had a king was in the 1800's
How come you guys still allow draconian bullshits in your lawbooks??
Democratic institutions are still in place but freedoms are constantly shrinking
We do it for the Children
We strive all days and all nights to keep you and all your children safe
You can trust us, we are good people
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I know for sure there are a lot in South-West London and new Kew Gardens. How do I know that? Last time I was around there, I got slurry of spam messages. My phone is only used if my bank needs to contact me, so 99% quiet. I don't give my number out. So why does travelling across certain part of London result in spam SMS and nuisance calls?
"If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible."
Sure, we're doing a lot of bad illegal shit, but we don't have time to do as much bad illegal shit as you think we are.
Imagine if that logic were applied by a bank robber: Sure, I robbed the bank, but I didn't have time to steal as much money as you thought I did.
Actually, this is a quintessential part of the debate. The Supreme Court considers it now on technology cases that involve the ability to do dragnet surveillance on large numbers of people or over an extended time period on the same person. The idea is basically that what used to be okay because cops were practically limited by the cost of extensive surveillance might no longer be okay when they are able to collect a LOT of surveillance data cheaply.
This came up in a GPS tracking case a few years back.
The Met Police would not have the legal authority to implement such a network. They are bound by the law and require warrants for interception. The only two potential sources are MI5 and GCHQ.
GCHQ would have better options than mere IMSI catchers, so that would leave MI5 as the source. Again, these guys are meant to be bound by UK on telecoms interception.
The network is clearly illegal under UK law, so I am somewhat surprised that the Met Police has not moved to prosecute. Technically, that would be aiding and abetting, perhaps even conspiracy charges.
Given this has hit the media, no doubt it will be taken further.
So uproot and walk away with them. If the police don't want to tell you who owns them, I guess you own them now.
Who knows, perhaps they're worth a bit on eBay.
AC
The article MENTIONS THAT THE MET BOUGHT STINGRAYS, so we know who uses them.
Whether its legal or not, well UK is a joke when it comes to privacy protection and MET is at the forefront of pushing the boundary beyond even that the law, so who knows.
What we know is they're not confident its legal enough to explain to Joe public (and Judge Public) why they're using them and under what legal circumstances. His excuse is rubbish, explaining in vague terms the legal use so be what the public law does. Most likely its pre-crime, the MET hides an intelligence unit which is almost political in nature, going after political campaign groups like Occupy London.
http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Met-Intelligence/1400026793326/1400026793326
"Led by Commander Richard Martin this is a new command which was formed in order to deliver a single, joined up intelligence service to the Metropolitan Police Service.
"The service is uniformly professionalised and the command owns all the Metropolitan Police Service intelligence professionals, including those who work in covert policing.
"This enables intelligence support to be flexible and dynamic, enabling the organisation to receive up-to-date and comprehensive intelligence products.
"At local, area and Pan London levels (including connections to regional and national structures) Met Intelligence delivers products to drive police activity based on research, analysis and field intelligence development, as well as giving live-time support to local and specialist operations and investigations. Intelligence both from overt and covert collection is handled by the command and correctly progressed where action is required.
"Met Intelligence is a key contributor to the effective operation and tasking processes at corporate level, ensuring MPS assets are directed against the most pressing threats, harm, risks and opportunities. This includes support to Strategic Assessments and the setting of Control Strategies for boroughs and for the MPS, was well as the continued delivery of Tactical Assessments to internal tasking processes.
"Met Intelligence is strictly managed through robust internal corporate government and legislation including Data Protection Act, Misuse of Computer Act, Regulation of Police Investigation Act and Management of Police Information. "
All we have for evidence is the word of a for-profit company and a 50MB RTF log file of meaningless crap, no GPS locations, no photos, nothing.
its trivial to triangulate the location of them yet out of 20 "detections" no physical devices or their locations have been found.
“A Question of Trust”, the report of my Investigatory Powers Review under DRIPA 2014 s7, was laid before Parliament today. It is available here in print and web accessible versions, together with the accompanying press release and (so far as the authors were willing for it to be published) the evidence submitted to the Review in writing. https://terrorismlegislationre... which may be of interest to some who are viewing this thread.
Obviously since no one is admitting to setting them up, they must have spontaneously formed from the ether, and are fair game for whomever reaches them first.
Here's the public's chance to get a free Stingray. Just find, or make, a way to track them, and once you reach them they are all yours.
It was publicly demonstrated not long ago that it's possible to listen into a given persons GSM calls relatively easily with cheap, consumer grade, equipment. If there's a bunch of these impostor towers knocking about and the police's position is that it's not them using them then I'd quite like them to be making an effort to find out who they do belong to ASAP. Shrugging and saying “we don't have the resources to bother tapping your phones” is not an acceptable response even if it's true.
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.
Given that there is a defence to a charge of criminal damage of preventing a crime - as demonstrated in the damage done to some jets on their way to an oppressive regime, break one and see who complains. The TLA that emerges will be upset, whilst the defence you proffer will force a discussion of their actual use in a court
Rather you than me...
Then our secret services said 'huh this is very strange ohmygosh. please move along'
Tear them down!
All the more reason that end-to-end encryption should be used for cell phones. Blackberry got this right on their [initial] messaging implementation. I'm guessing Uncle Sam would fight this to the death...
What surprises me most is that we haven't seen a comprehensive software solution for this yet. Sure, i've seen an implementation or two that only work on specific chipsets with Android, but where is the app that detects these stingrays, notifies all users in the area then triangulates the devices position and tracks it's movements using crowdsourced data? Maybe even an option to shutoff your phones radio or broadcast nonsense identification until it's gone.
It seems to me that if turning one of these on aways resulted in nearly instant identification of the vehicle carrying it, this nonsense would end pretty quick.
Lots of philosophical masturbation going on over this. Anyone bother to notice the election results? The people over there want this stuff and are more concerned about closing the border.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
And screw them up so they don't work anymore?
Those towers are only radios with computers, god knows how many computers get 'found' and screwed up every minute of every day.
crap was listed plain as day in the asterisks config file or Amp portal.
"If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.”
Basically this is dancing around actually answering "Is your department doing this?" and "Do you know who is setting these up?"
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
As far as I've heard, in the US Stingrays are used selectively in a given area from mobile platforms for brief periods. From the details in this story, it sounds like they're at fixed locations, which says to me that they're intended as a tool of constant and permanent surveillance. Since the legit tower IDs for an area are known, it should be a straightforward matter to build hardware (or maybe just run an app in a phone) that detects when a Stingray -- which will present an anomalous ID -- is operating and see exactly how much they're turned on. I'm guessing that something like this is how The Independent tracked down so many in such a short time. It also makes me wonder if a phone app could force the phone to use only a known-legit tower instead of allowing itself to be subverted by a Stingray.
On a related note, the British press is also pointing out how easily this equipment can make it onto the gray market and into the hands of criminal organizations. At least the Brits are being honest.
Frankly, some of what we need to do is intrusive, it is uncomfortable, and the important thing is we set that out openly and recognise there are difficult choices to be made.
But at least they get to debate those choices, rather than have law enforcement lie to the public and claim that they don't do these things. Trust us.
Have gnu, will travel.
Man learned to use fire a long time ago. Let's get back to our roots.
Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said: "If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.”
-> we're not doing everything that some people worry about, but I'm not claiming we're doing nothing, far from it
I am so totally reassured.
.. seriously, is this how surveillance is going to be presented - 'it's ok - just the tip'
Have you considered the possibility that this could be a private network for law enforcement(people who think of the children and care about us, those) to use for riot control/panics(situations when other towers are DoSed because of the sheer number of people connecting to them)?
I mean, In some countries, they have their own roads, their own phone models, their own whatever...
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
They told you to piss off it's non of your damn business, not where the data is going or how it's being used. If you believe anything that you are told by a Government which has a proven track record of lying to the public (and not giving a shit) you are a fool.
Your speculation that it's perfectly innocent because police are busy is worth the same amount as the conspiracy speculation of the next guy. You don't know what they are doing the the data, nor do you know who the collection point is sharing data with. It could be corporations buying information for profit, MI6 and Police attempting to find criminals, it could be MI5/MI6 digging up dirt on people they dislike, or it could be a mixture of all 3.
Most of us "hope" that the intentions are good, but until the Government proves otherwise you have to expect the worst scenario as well. The overwhelming majority of people in power did not get into power because they are nice and care about rules and morality. If you had not already figured that out without me telling you, I suggest stop believing everything you are told and use your eyes and head a bit.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
... and just recently re-discovered! It's the same in canada. Google stingray antenna images, then start watching the local constabulary vehicles. Chances are it won't take you long to spot a few. Here in Chilliwack, BC, Canada there are at least two, one at each detachment of the royal ukrainian mounted police (RUMP for short). Oh, and there is one more out at PRTC ... the former army base converted to JI, CBSA, and RUMP training facilities.
is "... Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said: 'If people imagine that we’ve got the resources to do as much intrusion as they worry about, I would reassure them that it’s impossible.' "?
Well then, Sir Douchebag, if you don't have the resources for that equipment, you're implying the equipment is not yours. If it's not, then shouldn't you be investigating who is eavesdropping on the public at large?