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Belgian Privacy Watchdog Sues Facebook

Posted by samzenpus on from the take-them-to-court dept.

An anonymous reader writes: Belgium is taking Facebook to task – and to court – about the company's opaque user-monitoring frameworks. The country's independent Privacy Commission, which is partnered with equivalent institutions in the Netherlands, France, Germany and Spain, failed to obtain information from the social media giant about the extent and nature of its user-analysis network, and has now decided to take action. The commission is particularly interested in the use that Facebook makes of information about users who are not logged in to Facebook, and may not even be members. The ubiquity of Facebook "share" buttons, along with other popular widgets or modules, have extended the company's reach far beyond its own site. The court convenes on the matter this Thursday.

34 of 72 comments (clear)

  1. Re:I love Facebook. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How do I like this comment?

  2. Yay for Belgium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think people in Europe are not as blinkered and easily duped as the USAians or others. FB is very invasive and not welcome, it is part of the problem and not part of the solution (on privacy and digital rights).

    1. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think people in Europe are not as blinkered and easily duped as the USAians or others. FB is very invasive and not welcome, it is part of the problem and not part of the solution (on privacy and digital rights).

      Yea, we Europeans are really super extra great, not like Yankees... it is just that we like our goverments to treat us like babies who can't enter in to an agreement with a business, PLUS, we are stupid enough that we can't even decide what is the law!

      Facebook has its European wing in Ireland (EU member), respecting the Irish law, which says it's o.k. for Facebook to operate in this way, but some Belgians (also EU member) say it may not be o.k. - and EU rules say that if Ireland says it's o.k., then it's o.k. for the whole EU! Stupid Yankees, they can't understand our super extra great European ways...

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    2. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      Thing is, Ireland decided more or less for itself whether FB respects Irish law or not. Belgium takes it a bit further and if it's said it's NOT OK on EU level, Ireland has to respect it as well.

      No Sir, i don't think it's like that, since the EU rule is that If a company has its headquarters in a EU country, and that country says it is o.k. for that company to operate in that country, then ALL the other EU countries must allow the company to operate in their countries like it operates in the country that has its headquarters - the (European wing of) Facebook is based on Ireland (EU member), Ireland says it's o.k., for facebook... Belgium (also EU member) must respect Ireland's decision!
      note: i am Greek (EU citizen).

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    3. Re:Yay for Belgium by Calydor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      who can't enter in to an agreement with a business

      The commission is particularly interested in the use that Facebook makes of information about users who are not logged in to Facebook, and may not even be members.

      Facebook is essentially saying you don't HAVE to enter into an agreement with them in order for them to keep track of you.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    4. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      who can't enter in to an agreement with a business

      The commission is particularly interested in the use that Facebook makes of information about users who are not logged in to Facebook, and may not even be members.

      Facebook is essentially saying you don't HAVE to enter into an agreement with them in order for them to keep track of you.

      That is something i don't like either - BUT, (at least) in EU (note: i am Greek), it is perfectly legal to collect general personal data about people without their consent (except of special cases, e.g., health data - you can even do that in some cases, but you have to provide a way for people to be informed for this and/or check their own data).

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    5. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      ... in EU (note: i am Greek)...

      Enjoy while it lasts Zorba...

      EU != EUROzone

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    6. Re: Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      So ireland can dictate eu policy?

      No - it is EU policy that if a EU member country allows a company to operate in its country then ALL other EU member countries must allow that company to operate in their countries also... BUT all EU member countries must accept EU policies...

      Huh, odd system.

      Yes - even we Europeans (i am Greek) do not understand it... or at least i don't!

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    7. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      Operate: yes Breaking the law in individual countries: no

      I agree, BUT "the law in individual [EU member] countries" is the European Union's law!

      Unless you can provide a link to what you're talking about and how it applies to the privacy laws in Belgium *and* the EU, this is a he says, she says situation.

      Ha... if i could provide a link to make this clear, then much of the critisism of us Europeans about our Union would cease to exist...

      Anyway, you can try this (good luck my friend!): http://ec.europa.eu/justice/ci...

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    8. Re: Yay for Belgium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dont forget in firefox to set this

      privacy.trackingprotection.enabled : true

      stops facebook code on webpages

      and privacy badger from eff

      rgds

    9. Re:Yay for Belgium by goarilla · · Score: 1

      I agree, BUT "the law in individual [EU member] countries" is the European Union's law!

      So any company can search for the EU member with the weakest national laws to get a foothold into Europe ?
      Doesn't this mean that if any country legalizes pot or prostitution it's legal everywhere in the EU ?

    10. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      Please explain the difference between an EU directive and an EU law?

      (PS: you can't google it)

      Without googling it i will surely fail but i will try: a directive is a EU "proposal/decision" that must (in theory!!!) become national law.

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    11. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      No, it is not !

      Under the Data Protection Directive , collecting and processing the personal data of individuals is only legitimate in one of the following circumstances laid down by Article 7 of the Directive:

      - Where the individual concerned, (the 'data subject'), has unambiguously given his or her consent, after being adequately informed; or - if data processing is needed for a contract, for example, for billing, a job application or a loan request; or - if processing is required by a legal obligation; or - if processing is necessary in order to protect the vital interest of the data subject, for example, processing of medical data of a victim of a car accident; or - if processing is necessary to perform tasks of public interests or tasks carried out by government, tax authorities, the police or other public bodies; or - if the data controller or a third party has a legitimate interest in doing so, as long as this interest does not affect the interests of the data subject, or infringe on his or her fundamental rights, in particular the right to privacy. This provision establishes the need to strike a reasonable balance between the data controllers' business interests and the privacy of data subjects.

      It shall be noted that Article 8 prohibits the processing of personal data revealing racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religious or philosophical beliefs, trade-union membership, and the processing of data concerning health or sex life unless one of the exception criteria is met.

      First of all: this is a directive (it is more than 2 decades old, and it become -some of its provisions- law in my country Greece just a couple of years ago), plus... read the the part in bold.

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    12. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      I agree, BUT "the law in individual [EU member] countries" is the European Union's law!

      So any company can search for the EU member with the weakest national laws to get a foothold into Europe ? Doesn't this mean that if any country legalizes pot or prostitution it's legal everywhere in the EU ?

      Not exactly - for that to happen (in theory) it must be compatible with EU's law or at least directives (i.e., "proposals" that must become members' national law... someday!), but even if that is not the case then a member state can not forbit that company to operate in the country it is based (so, for services that can be accesed without physical presence of a EU citizen -e.g. Facebooks case- it is o.k.! IN THEORY!!!)

      Please note: i don't understand it myself very well, PLUS neither most Europeans do, PLUS, NEITHER LAWYERS! I know 2 cases of Greek companies trying to operate in other EU member states, plus a non-Greek EU company trying to operate in Greece that are in EU courts because national laws forbite them to operate as they can IN THEORY.

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    13. Re:Yay for Belgium by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yea, we Europeans are really super extra great, not like Yankees... it is just that we like our goverments to treat us like babies who can't enter in to an agreement with a business

      I expect my government to protect me so that I can focus on my life. I thought this was one of the reasons I pay taxes.
      I would hope that keeping me safe from bullshit and invasive practices of corporations is part of that protection.

      Calling that kind of government activity "babysitting" is what an ultra-capitalist american corporate shill would do.

    14. Re:Yay for Belgium by moronoxyd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      if the data controller or a third party has a legitimate interest in doing so, as long as this interest does not affect the interests of the data subject, or infringe on his or her fundamental rights, in particular the right to privacy. This provision establishes the need to strike a reasonable balance between the data controllers' business interests and the privacy of data subjects.

      First of all: this is a directive (it is more than 2 decades old, and it become -some of its provisions- law in my country Greece just a couple of years ago), plus... read the the part in bold.

      Yes, and directives are the basis for national laws, meaning that national laws have to at least reach that level.

      Also, please explain to us how Facebooks interest in collecting data from people that are not Facebook members is more legitimate than the interest of said people not having their data collected by a company they have no contractual relationship with?

    15. Re:Yay for Belgium by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1, Troll

      No, not yay for Belgium.

      Don't these privacy regulators have anything else to do? Where is their input in the Snowden affair, for example? Suspiciously missing in action.

      Here's a good place to start when evaluating the utility of these investigations: a list of people who have been objectively harmed in some way by the alleged action. Can't find anyone who has been harmed by Facebook's actions in an entire countries worth of people? Then maybe that suggests the taxpayer money is better spent elsewhere.

    16. Re:Yay for Belgium by Lennie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "we like our goverments to treat us like babies who can't enter in to an agreement with a business"

      Let's be clear:

      This court case is, among other things, about the like- and connect-buttons Facebook uses to track people on other websites on the web even if they have NO agreement with this company.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    17. Re:Yay for Belgium by Lennie · · Score: 2

      Even Mark Zuckerberg likes privacy, who would have thought ?:

      http://www.businessinsider.com...

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    18. Re:Yay for Belgium by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      Doesn't this mean that if any country legalizes pot or prostitution it's legal everywhere in the EU ?

      Obviously not, as both are legal in the Netherlands. Well I suppose pot isn't technically legal, but you can buy it at coffee shops.

      Prostitution is legal in at least one state in the US, but not in all. Pot is also legal in a couple of states for recreational use, and even more for medicinal purposes. However it's illegal in most, and all use is illegal at the federal level.

    19. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      I agree, BUT "the law in individual [EU member] countries" is the European Union's law!

      No, it is most certainly not. National laws are national laws and are only valid in a particular nation. There are also EU directives that are supposed to be valid EU-wide, but the actual implementation is a national responsibility so it can and will vary between the member states.

      But since you are a Greek, it is understandable, that you don't have a clue about laws.

      You could include the "Operate: yes Breaking the law in individual countries: no" part of the comment you quote, which was someone's reply to some other comment i made and in which i reply, plus read that other comment, and have a better understanding of the discussion, and even read in other comments i made the same point you just made... but i guess you just wanted to inform me that i am a Greek without a clue about the laws!

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    20. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      Yea, we Europeans are really super extra great, not like Yankees... it is just that we like our goverments to treat us like babies who can't enter in to an agreement with a business

      I expect my government to protect me so that I can focus on my life. I thought this was one of the reasons I pay taxes. I would hope that keeping me safe from bullshit and invasive practices of corporations is part of that protection.

      Calling that kind of government activity "babysitting" is what an ultra-capitalist american corporate shill would do.

      Thank Zeus i am Greek then, so i can call that kind of government activity "babysitting" without being accused by some statist as "ultra-capitalist american corporate shill"...

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    21. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      if the data controller or a third party has a legitimate interest in doing so, as long as this interest does not affect the interests of the data subject, or infringe on his or her fundamental rights, in particular the right to privacy. This provision establishes the need to strike a reasonable balance between the data controllers' business interests and the privacy of data subjects.

      First of all: this is a directive (it is more than 2 decades old, and it become -some of its provisions- law in my country Greece just a couple of years ago), plus... read the the part in bold.

      Yes, and directives are the basis for national laws, meaning that national laws have to at least reach that level.

      Also, please explain to us how Facebooks interest in collecting data from people that are not Facebook members is more legitimate than the interest of said people not having their data collected by a company they have no contractual relationship with?

      The link included in my previous reply leads to an attempt i made to (badly) define a "directive" that you should read it, if you didn't already, plus read the reply you had from some anomymous poster - you quoted some parts of a directive, i put emphasis to a part i think it is relevant and told you to read it (it says something about "reasonable balance")... the rest is facebook's problem, i am not their lawyer my friiend!

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    22. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      "we like our goverments to treat us like babies who can't enter in to an agreement with a business"

      Let's be clear:

      This court case is, among other things, about the like- and connect-buttons Facebook uses to track people on other websites on the web even if they have NO agreement with this company.

      Yes, i agree Sir (since you keep it "straight to facts only")- BUT you may want to read some other comments i and other Slashdoters made about that (my basic point there is that it is legal to gather *general* personal data without consent).

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    23. Re:Yay for Belgium by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      Straw man - I didn't say financial harm. I said ANY meaningful kind of harm. Embarrassment, family problems, whatever.

      There have been a bunch of blowups like this over the years. The worst "harm" that anyone has been able to demonstrate was that some people, somewhere (who are nameless as none of them filed any complaints) might have seen a better targeted advert.

    24. Re:Yay for Belgium by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      Fair enough.

      Then, let me rephrase that statement:

      Calling that kind of government activity "babysitting" is what an ultra-capitalist greek corporate shill would do. :)

      AC comment above wasn't me... I wouldn't personally insult you because of disagreeing with you. Especially not in that kind of language.

    25. Re: Yay for Belgium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You keep saying that, that you're Greek. Near as I can tell, we can all claim whatever we like behind our pseudonyms here on these forums.

    26. Re:Yay for Belgium by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      How about sons outed as gay to their parents by their browsing history being used to target advertisements to the same IP address?

      Citation needed. No ad network I know of targets anything by IP address, exactly because they are so often shared.

      I know I've also heard of one pregnant girl outed in the same way.

      Prove it. Then go ahead and explain why the fix for this is Belgium and not, say, user profiles on the computer in question.

      It's not some nebulous thing that should require victim lawsuits before anything is done.

      It's extremely nebulous, poorly defined and yes - generally we would hope to see actual victims before punishing someone for a so far quite literally victimless crime.

    27. Re:Yay for Belgium by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      Fair enough.

      Then, let me rephrase that statement:

      Calling that kind of government activity "babysitting" is what an ultra-capitalist greek corporate shill would do. :)

      Now that we have this "Greek" thing right, let's deal with the other parts: i am "ultra-capitalist" (and/or ANTI-statist as you understand) BUT i am NOT a "corporate shill" (i don't even have a facebook account!) - so, you was 1/3 right, now you are 2/3!

      AC comment above wasn't me... I wouldn't personally insult you because of disagreeing with you. Especially not in that kind of language.

      Don't worry about that my friend, most of the times it is easy for me to understand "who is who" (and i never thought it was you), plus, i am used to it (i am a Greek NATIONALIST, most of this "love" i am getting from "anonymous" is actually from Slashdoters who don't like my "nationalistic racist/sexist ways" - most probably you don't like them either, but i am old enough to know how to make the distinction between people who just disagree with me and assholes!).

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
  3. Re:I love Facebook. by davester666 · · Score: 2

    By turning your computer off.

    Millions of people don't use Facebook, and Facebook ignores their privacy and rents their information to whomever gives them a dollar.

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  4. Re: Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Lol. The EU destroyed their good relations with Russia over Ukraine, obeying the US without questions. The economic damage is crippling the EU, destroying jobs left and right. The EU stopped hundreds of flights on the orders of the US when Snowden was suspected to be on one of those. Now the EU will sign a trade treaty with the US which will guarantee they'll be in thrall of the US forever. So much for you being "bigger", eurosluts. Obama made Europe our bitch. Now bend over and spread your ass wide.

  5. Re: Yawn by murdocj · · Score: 1

    Yeah, where's Neville Chamberlain when you really need him?

  6. Facebooks reaction by houghi · · Score: 1

    I heard it on the radio while in a car, so no source.

    Facebook said it anted to work with the police toi find a solution.

    My questions: why work with the police? They are not the ones who have a problem with it. They are not the people who have a solution for you. To me it is clear Facebook does not have a clue or is trying US tactics.
    There is a 'gerechtelijke politie', but they do investigations. They are not people who look for solutions. They are the ones take assets if the law requires to do so.

    This is basically an open and shut case. Even even easier than a person running a trafic light on camera.

    The other thing is: there is an easy solution: STOP DOING IT.

    If you can't follow the rules, fuck off.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  7. Re:Got 99 problems but facebook aint one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Except that facebook is one of your problems, even if you don't use it. That's the entire point of TFA.