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Robot Swarm Behavior Suggests Forgetting May Be Important To Cultural Evolution

Hallie Siegel writes: Can we learn about human cultural evolution by studying how group behaviour in robots evolves? Researchers in the Artificial Culture Project are trying to do just that. Prof. Alan Winfield from the Bristol Robotics Lab discusses his latest research on modelling the process by which cultural memes develop in robots when they pass learned behaviours to other robots in their group. Some interesting findings suggest imitation noise (ie. when the behaviour isn't learned perfectly) and forgetfulness (i.e. when the robot has only limited memory of the behaviours it is trying to imitate) lead to stronger cultural memes in the robot behaviour.

37 comments

  1. bring back the comments link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    good job iam not blind, no underlined links anywhere to this comment thread, who knew that the title was clickable ?

    who are the retard designers breaking all the ADA guidlines and putting 25years of usability UX/UI in the trash, have you learnt NOTHING ? , mind you if programmers had common sense SQL injections wouldnt exist anymore.

    so bring the link back jerks

    1. Re:bring back the comments link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an article on civility just before that - maybe you should look at that for advice. Other than that you are right. Amen.

    2. Re:bring back the comments link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if they are breaking ADA guidelines, they can be sued for that.

      The people suing don't even have to be handicapped, from what I understand.

      Just sayin'

    3. Re:bring back the comments link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not blind, and that's why I can see a big black speech bubble hiding a word in the title. What's the word? This has been going on for a few days, and people have commented on it. No fix yet. Why was it approved to begin with?

    4. Re:bring back the comments link by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      What's the word?

      The word is love

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    5. Re:bring back the comments link by belthize · · Score: 1

      Surely the Bird is the Word.

    6. Re:bring back the comments link by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      If you were not anonymous I'd suggest adding a [FUCK SHARE] tag to your .sig.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:bring back the comments link by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The bird is love...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:bring back the comments link by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      They though "websites-that-suck.com" was a training manual.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  2. Short answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No.

  3. So Hillarhea! is the most-evolved human? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    All the failures that Hillarhea! has forgotten make her the most culturally-evolved human possible then.

  4. Fanstastic! by Psychotria · · Score: 4, Funny

    The difference was clear and significant; with limited memory an average of 2.8 clusters of average size 8.3, with unlimited memory 3.9 clusters of size 6.9.

    Why is this clustering interesting? Well it’s because the number and size of clusters in the meme pool are good indicators of its diversity. Think of each cluster of related memes as a ‘tradition’. A healthy culture needs a balance between stability and diversity. Neither too much stability, i.e. a very small number (in the limit 1) of traditions, or too much diversity, i.e. clusters so small that there are no persistent traditions at all. Perhaps the ideal balance is a smallish number of somewhat persistent traditions.

    No shit that the unlimited memory will result in fewer clusters -- they have, well, unlimited memory so they have much more (unlimited actually) scope for creating new clusters.

    This study of some hypothesis (hypothesis) is literally begging the question by answering the question with... err the question itself.

    I guess this is why I dislike most models. This "study" demonstrates nothing. Absolutely nothing except that the model behaves according to the model. Maybe a new phrase is needed: "begging the model".

    1. Re:Fanstastic! by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      Further, "diversity" is not the same as species abundance (and number of clusters doesn't play a part at all, and to a lesser extent neither does the size of the clusters unless there is some kind of boundary). I don't have the data but I wonder if the people running this -- what is it anyway? it's not an experiment, surely -- computer program realise that.

    2. Re:Fanstastic! by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      Ok, I just read the how draft paper and I need to apologise: it's worse than I thought :/

    3. Re:Fanstastic! by belthize · · Score: 1

      You say no shit as if it's self evident and I agree it does indeed appear to be self evident but what they showed was that the hypothesis (you'd get clustering) was born out by the study (they got clustering). If you watch the video they even state that it's a testable and verifiable hypothesis.

      If you're omniscient it's probably ok to just skate by on assertions but us mere mortals need to start with a hypothesis and devise a test which either appears to support the hypothesis or clearly refutes it.

    4. Re:Fanstastic! by Psychotria · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, they showed that what their algorithm produced is what they designed the algorithm to do.

      There is no fitness function or anything.

      It's just... I'm not sure how to explain it. You can't form a hypothesis, develop and algorithm to mimic that hypothesis and then draw any conclusions because the algorithm does what it was designed to do. That just begs the question, as I initially said, and shows nothing.

    5. Re:Fanstastic! by belthize · · Score: 2

      A fitness function would be meaningless in this case. The methodology is for each robot to independently mimic as precisely as possible what it observed given the imperfections in it's imaging system.

      The goal isn't to train the student robot to perfectly mimic the teacher the goal is to let (and I can't believe I'm about to use this term) nature take its course and see what new memes arise and how they cluster.

    6. Re:Fanstastic! by Psychotria · · Score: 2

      You're correct, but aren't the robots:

      a) observing the scene;
      b) recreating the scene/trajectory as they see it; and
      c) watching again and repeating

      ?

      1) In the case of unlimited trials what will happen is that fewer clusters will be formed because the robots will follow the "average" trajectory of noise
      2) In the case of limited trials more clusters will form (and they will be closer to the original trajectory because the amount of noise contributing to the trajectory is less) and the trajectories they follow will more closely resemble the original "course"

      Maybe I'm missing something important. I'll read the paper again.

    7. Re:Fanstastic! by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      Ugh... substitute "trials" with "memory"... grrr.. i.e. more trials with less memory will more closely resemble the original observation; more trials with more memory will more closely resemble the noise in the observation.

    8. Re:Fanstastic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe a new phrase is needed: "begging the model".

      And that my friends, is something most of us have probably done at some point of our lives, even if the model hasn't been present.

  5. Meme's... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... are what happens to be the cheapest to select and are congruent with some property of some group of systems.

  6. Perfection is death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chaos is life. Everything interesting happens on the borders of order, not in the area of order itself. Order is static.

    1. Re:Perfection is death by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Chaos is life. [...] Order is static.

      You sound like you've read this but not understood it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  7. Are these European robots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I understand Europeans have a right to be forgotten now. How does that affect me, though, given that I have too many relevant things to do to have learned about a continent of stinky cheese eaters in powdered wigs in the first place? Very little to forget.

  8. Interesting. Ants have very poor memory by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    I recall an NPR piece about a post doc talking about ants. She said, "Ants can't be addled". She had a built a contraption that will pick an ant and place it back some 12 inches behind, making it retrace the last 12 inches of its path again and again. I think it was not computerized or robotized. Seemed like she was operating the contraption manually and after several dozen attempts (or a few hundred can't recall) she gave up. So it gels with this summary that says forgetfulness helps.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Interesting. Ants have very poor memory by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      How does it gel with the summary? I.e. how much memory do ants have -- none, 12 steps (maybe alcoholic ones do?), or unlimited? Do ants follow pheremones (unlike the robots in the summary, article and paper)?

    2. Re:Interesting. Ants have very poor memory by belthize · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They may have crap memory but they have good pheromone receptors. All she was doing was forcing the ant to strengthen the path signal.

      On a random side note, we have fairly large ants (1/2 inch) around here that make these 6 foot diameter circles cleared of all material. 30 or so years ago I sat with a six pack and watched them for hours on end. It was kind of fascinating.

      Some percentage (presumably >50%) of the ants seemed to be driven to take material from inside the mound and deposit it outside the mound.
      Some percentage (presumably 50%) seemed to be driven to pick up some material from outside and deposit it inside (probably MBAs).

      Some were lazy and would either drop or pick up material just a few inches from the hole, some a few feet and some adventurous souls would wander 10 to 20 feet away.

      The result was a net movement of material from inside the hole and a distribution of material that was maximized around the whole and tapering to nearly zero about 3 feet from the hole. Given monsoonal rains that tapering pretty much ensures the hole is high enough above the local ground level that flooding is rare.

      Bloody inefficient but they got there.

    3. Re:Interesting. Ants have very poor memory by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      >Bloody inefficient but they got there.

      It's only bloody inefficient to you because evolution has spend a whole lot of energy in making you intelligent enough to realize it. You also have to consume massive amount of resources to keep realizing it. The ants on the other hand are exceptionally tough individually, require very little resources, and can be bred at exceptionally fast rates. If the ants could look back at us and speak they would probably say "Look at them move all the stuff around in circles, and they are going to burn up the planet doing it, ha".

    4. Re:Interesting. Ants have very poor memory by belthize · · Score: 2

      Agreed, I wish I'd phrased that better. It was a wonderful case study in complex systems emerging from very simple rule sets.

  9. OK, now time to fix icons over headlines. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Figured it was just me, but I've seen others comment on the icons/comments covering up the article headlines.

    Do you guys test this shit?

    C'mon, fix it!

  10. What they are sying by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Live in the now, not in the past...

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  11. Good and bad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd say it would be a pretty good skill to be forgetful.
    You can learn bad behaviours as well as good. And bad ones being forgotten either through memory or even straight-up death is useful to a species as a whole.
    Good simple example is an animal running around loudly at predators. Good way to get itself and probably its own herd / colony killed.

    Of course, you can also learn apparently good skills that later become totally useless, but they stick around anyway because there is no reason for them to evolve out.
    A predator could die out entirely and a species that was preyed on by them will still be deathly scared of a trigger that predator had (say, color of fur), even long after it died.
    So something that is completely neutral or harmless that may have a similar or even the same triggers to run like f@$! may be hurtful to something that could be good or beneficial to both species.

    In the case of humans, we are only JUST getting over our inherent "stick with your own kind" genetics, aka, genetic "racism", tribalism if you will, the very thing that most creatures evolve in order to not be killed by hopping over to say hi to the T-rex. (not so much racism, more racephobia, well, a bit of both and more actually)
    For millions of years this has led to infighting with our own species. It still happens today sadly. Humans are very still in the tribal species area even in most modern countries.
    I say we are just getting over it, it could easily die out and we will continue to be afraid and hateful towards each other until only one race remains. (or none!)
    Generally it is covered up in lies by tourism boards and government laws, but it won't change how people feel since it literally is our genetics to be with ones own.
    Even deep down, most people reading this will likely have a preference for a mate, that is still inherently related to it, even if it is without malice.
    I've talked to people in every continent on the planet (even Antarctica), and know god knows how many people from different races, religions and countries, but even I have that awful feeling buried deep down.
    Our intelligence saved our species, most likely, during the last ice age. We know we had relations with Neanderthals during those times, a branch quite different to all others in the homo line. Those pressures could even be what led to our openness and cooperative skills evolving much further.
    But it could have just been the ice age was anti-development. We don't know for certain.

    The horror of having an immortal memory is hard to imagine, but you could estimate how awful it would be.
    A million different things all competing for an action to occur.
    It would be like that experimental twitch stream that had every viewer play a game, except every millisecond.
    Millions of personalities all fighting for control.
    Safe to say that if any creatures that did evolve near-eternal memories occurred, they likely died out quickly.
    A creature like that evolving "without fault" would probably be even harder than general intelligence like ours evolving.

  12. In that case, frak Cher too by tepples · · Score: 1

    Better yet, frak both "share" and Cher.

    Along with Jack Valenti and other big names in the entertainment industry, Cher was among the "forever less one day" proponents of copyright term extension. Normally, copyright is designed to "forget" old works so that, say, songwriters don't run the risk of accidentally making a work too similar to an older work, getting sued, losing, and falling into financial ruin. Term extension interferes with this forgetting.

  13. Interestingly relates to Nietzsche by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nietzsche talks about the usefulness of forgetting in The Use and Abuse of History for Life, and of course the revaluation of all values is relevant to strengthening culture/customs. Imitation noise leads to a systematic revaluation.

  14. Makes sense by Boronx · · Score: 1

    In most species adults die off after reproducing, probably because it helps evolution if all the old experiments are cleanly washed away.