Samsung Nanotech Breakthrough Nearly Doubles Li-Ion Battery Capacity

The Korea Times reports that Samsung researchers have published in Nature Communications the results of research (here's the abstract) that could lead to vastly greater storage capacity for lithium-ion batteries. The researchers, by growing graphene on silicon anodes, were able to preserve the shape of the anodes, an outcome which has formerly eluded battery designers: silicon tends to deform over numerous charging cycles. From the linked abstract: Here we report direct graphene growth over silicon nanoparticles without silicon carbide formation. The graphene layers anchored onto the silicon surface accommodate the volume expansion of silicon via a sliding process between adjacent graphene layers. When paired with a commercial lithium cobalt oxide cathode, the silicon carbide-free graphene coating allows the full cell to reach volumetric energy densities of 972 and 700Whl1 at first and 200th cycle, respectively, 1.8 and 1.5 times higher than those of current commercial lithium-ion batteries. Also at ZDNet.

Comments

well then

[Anonymous Coward]

So when will I be able to buy an electric supercar for $20K? Until then, I'm not interested, and neither are millions of people.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

thankfully, there are billions of ppl that will be more THAN happy to buy EVs that costs more initially, since they know that to run it is a fraction of the price.
In the mean time, twits like you can go and beat off with your boyfriend.

Re:well then

[binarylarry]

I suppose it depends on the definition of "supercar."

However, I hope this means my android phones will start to get better battery life. Half the life of an iOS device would be a huge win.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

the op is right. we keep seeing "advances" in battery technology yet nothing trickles down at a great rate. with everything that's been discovered we should have wristwatch sized batteries able to power half the house for days. graphene batteries should be powering locomotives.

a friend is a marine electrician. his big thing is li-ion batteries for boats. the claim to fame? weight. they weigh nothing. and the amp hours are better. nothing too outstanding to be honest. and that was FIVE years ago. what's happened since, that i can go to the store and buy off the shelf?

Re:well then

[Rei]

Top commercial li-ion capacities are about 30% more than they were 5 years ago. And today's batteries include some of the "advances" you were reading about 5 years ago.

I'm sorry if technology doesn't move forward at the pace you want. But it does move forward when you're not looking. Remember the size of cell phone batteries back in the day?

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

Er,... I'm pretty sure that the GP didn't mean Marine as in the military, but marine as in dealing-with-water.

Re: well then

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't buy Samsung android phones. There are brands whose battery life is just as good as iphones.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

we keep seeing "advances" in battery technology yet nothing trickles down at a great rate.

Right, which is why smartphones and tablets still only exist in science fiction. Or you're an idiot. One of the two.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha, obvious troll is obvious.

Re: well then

[avatar avatar]

You probably aren't seeing efficiency gains because American consumers are more interested in a widget that does twice as much than they are in a widget that runs twice as long.

Re:well then

[Khyber]

-1 for not knowing marine batteries mean for marine vessels - you know - REGULAR BOATS that would be in port at a MARINA.

Re:well then

[mlts]

Problem with lithium based batteries, in general, are two things:

1: Puncture them, they go boom unless engineering is done to prevent this.

2: If they are not discharged and charged correctly, they go boom.

One place where lithium batteries are starting to make an impact (namely LiFePO4 batteries) is RV-ing. However, Silverleaf controllers tend to be expensive, so if you want this and you like off-grid camping, expect to pay upwards of $120,000 just to play in this ballgame. More useful setups (800-1200 ampere-hours) are available (Advanced RV comes to mind as well as Roadtrek), but expect to pay dearly for those.

What really is needed is a charge/discharge controller that can take a bank of lithium cells and make it appear to existing chargers and electrical loads like the battery is a flooded lead-acid or AGM battery. This would allow retrofitting without having to do major re-engineering of the rest of the electrical system. However, in reality, it will take a re-engineering of charging and discharging eventually because of lithium's different charging/discharging curves.

Re: well then

[mlts]

If you use JuiceDefender, you can prolong the life of almost any Android phone, just because you can schedule it to turn off all communications other than for a certain gap. This does help with some phones that have a short battery life.

Re:well then

[mark-t]

The problem with EV's that cost so much more initially is that it typically takes longer then the duration of the loan you would get for the car before it starts to pay for itself... so your monthly payments on the car are even more than what you would be spending on a conventional automobile *including* gasoline.

Re:well then

[AK Marc]

Remember the size of cell phone batteries back in the day?

Back when they lasted a week on a charge? Yes, they were larger. And lasted longer. Much longer. Of course the phones were lower-draw (though not as low as you'd think, as the radios were more power hungry).

Re:well then

[AK Marc]

My Oppo Find 7 is better than a friend's iPhone 6 of the same age.

The problem isn't "android" but the phones you are looking at. Target longer lives and you'll find options. My Samsung Galaxy S3 would last less than 30 minutes with a graphical game, or movie playing. I'll never go Samsung again. On the car charger, the GPS with screen off, giving directions would drain faster than it would charge, less than 20 minutes of GPS (off charger, about 30-40 on). If you went somewhere an hour away, you'd have to get close before turning on the directions app, or you'd never make it where you are going. But my current, the Oppo, does much better, even using the same maps/directions app.

Re:well then

[Paradise Pete]

yet nothing trickles down at a great rate

By definition.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nothing, mine was powered by a potato. And it was evil.

Re:well then

[Barsteward]

is that why you've got a chip on your shoulder about it?

Re:well then

[Barsteward]

yep, i glad i've just upgraded to a blackberry passport, i now get upto 4 days before charging. but i'm not an app addict, just use the phone, email, contact, calendar, browser, camera.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you borrow money to buy something that only depreciates in value (such as a car)? Seems like a terrible idea.

Re: well then

[fonske]

Yeah, that and they've only got half the voltage on the mains.

Re:well then

[kenai_alpenglow]

loan under 3%, investments over 12%. I keep vehicles around 15-20 years, so depreciation is not meaningful. In fact the scrap value may go up it steel prices rise :-). Not everyone gets a new vehicle every 3-5 years...

Re:well then

[mark-t]

I assumed that we were talking about new cars here... since the issue at hand is price disparity between EV's and conventional automobiles. Not very many people buy brand new cars without getting a loan.

Re:well then

[tsqr]

Remember the size of cell phone batteries back in the day?

Back when they lasted a week on a charge?

"Back in the day" doesn't necessarily mean "the first mobile phone you had". Maybe he's referring to this, from 1973. Or maybe the Motorola DynaTAC, the first commercially available cell phone, from 10 years later, priced at $3995.. Both feature 30 minute talk time and 10 hours to recharge. At least the DynaTAC only weighed 1-3/4 lbs, down from nearly 2-1/2 lbs for the earlier prototype.

Re: well then

[Anonymous Coward]

3 modern flagship smartphones

Re:well then

[karnal]

But at least it was sorry for trying to murder you.

Re:well then

[Anonymous Coward]

In Latvia, is only potato.

And sadness.

Re:well then

[Coren22]

I thought a Marina was another name for a base that houses Marines...

Damn...my whole world view has changed...

Re:well then

[Coren22]

It also has a very nice singing voice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:well then

[petteyg359]

If it takes you that long to pay off a loan under $30,000 (for, e.g., a Prius), then you have no business owning a car at your income level.

Re:well then

[mark-t]

I think you misread my comment... I said that it takes *LONGER* than the duration of the loan for the money saved on gasoline to start to pay for itself in money saved compared to an otherwise comparable ICE vehicle. The example you gave, a Prius, which isn't even a full EV and requires you to still use gasoline, still costs nearly twice as much as some other new cars of similar size and quality. And even if it were a full EV, it would still work out to costing about $600 per month for just a 5 year loan compared to about $350 or so for a Corolla, for instance. The difference in monthly costs for the first five years being more than what you would spend on gasoline in that amount of time with a car of that size anyways. Saving money every month on gasoline doesn't really carry a whole lot of weight when the increased price of the car makes your monthly payments larger than what you would otherwise spend on a typical car *PLUS* gasoline.

Re:well then

[bemymonkey]

Have you looked at a smartphone lately? How about the ~100Wh battery I have in my 1.5kg laptop? A Tesla S?

Re:well then

[petteyg359]

The difference makes itself up quite quickly, hence, if you can't afford the up-front cost, you probably can't afford a new car in the first place, and a lot of people in that situation are too uneducated financially to even begin to understand the benefits of paying more up front instead of getting a lower "monthly payment" that'll cost you a lot more over time, and will jump on that $350 a month because they can "afford" it like they can afford spending $20 on fast food every single day instead of buying a microwave and some groceries and be saving money within a week.

Re:well then

[mark-t]

The difference makes itself up quite quickly only *AFTER* the car is finished being paid for.... The point of getting a loan to buy a car in the first place is to get some immediate benefit for some longer term sacrifice (you pay more money overall)... but paying more money every month for a car that costs more than what you'd pay for a similarly sized conventional vehicle even *after* you factor in the cost of gasoline doesn't offer any immediate benefit at all..

The alternative is to just buy a new car in cash... but not everyone has that kind of money lying around.... even if they haven't bought a vehicle in many years.

Re:well then

[Trogre]

Debian Potato?

200 cycles?

[Lumpy]

Wow very short life. Call me when it's 2000 cycles.

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. What's your number...?

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

(301) 688-6524
You do not need to leave a message. We will know that it is you.

Re:200 cycles?

[Dagger2]

That's not what it says. It says that the capacity at 200 cycles is 1.5x a current cell. No mention is made of the point at which the capacity of these cells drops below the capacity of regular cells, if indeed such a point even exists: it's entirely possible these cells have roughly the same performance vs cycle curve as current cells after 200 cycles, just with a generally higher capacity.

I suppose you might raise the question of why they limited their testing to 200 cycles rather than more, but I note that if each charge/discharge cycle takes 4 hours then 2000 cycles would take almost a year to complete.

Re:200 cycles?

[WalksOnDirt]

Right, 200 cycles is too short. These don't even compare well with Panasonic's current NCA cells, which are reported as 675 Wh/l. After 300 cycles the Panasonics probably store more energy.

Re:200 cycles?

[William Baric]

I'd take a 200 cycles more powerful battery over a 2000 cycles less powerful battery any time. I'm not sure why you view changing a battery once or twice a year as such a big deal.

Re:200 cycles?

[sumdumass]

I saw that number written on the bathroom wall at the club I was at last night. You must get around.

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's entirely possible these cells have roughly the same performance vs cycle curve as current cells after 200 cycles

It's entirely possible that after 400 cycles they are worse than current cells.

Re:200 cycles?

[angel'o'sphere]

Because 200 cycles need about 200 days?

Re:200 cycles?

[Rei]

On the other hand, if they're doubling capacity, then you only need half the number of cycles (it actually even works *better* than that, as li-ion cells prefer shallow charges and discharges rather than deep ones - but yes, fractional charge cycles do add up as fractional charge cycles, not whole cycles). If you have a 200km-range EV and you drive 20 kilometers a day, you're using 10% of a cycle per day. If you have a 400km-range EV and you drive 20 kilometers a day, you're using 5% of a cycle per day.

Re:200 cycles?

[Moof123]

Keep in mind that for widgets like phones and tablets that they are not always cycling fully on a daily basis. Lithium Ion batteries degrade much faster being deep cycled from 100% to near 0% than if you are only going 80% to 20%, like an order of magnitude longer. Most applications do not ever fuly charge the cells, and shut down before hitting zero to trade off a little capacity for vastly longer useful lifetimes.

Re:200 cycles?

[93 Escort Wagon]

On the other hand, if they're doubling capacity, then you only need half the number of cycles

I'm pretty sure I saw an episode of Red Dwarf where they made a similar trade off... It ended up with Lister playing pool with planets.

Don't be like Lister.

Re: 200 cycles?

[abylund]

Jenny? Is that you?

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Victim of NCLB? Didn't get accepted by the Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too? Let me help.

At 200 cycles power density is 1.5x better than your current generation of lithium ion cells. 200 cycles is when the cells were tested, not when they failed.

Re:200 cycles?

[GigaplexNZ]

I'm not sure why you view changing a battery once or twice a year as such a big deal.

It's because it generally means replacing your whole phone these days.

Re:200 cycles?

[aXis100]

Because lots of devices don't have user replaceable batteries - eg most tablets and many phones.

Also, for lots of devices the cost of those batteries is very high, to the point that lifetime cycle cost is significant. Eg electric vehicles or off-grid storage.

Re:200 cycles?

[perryizgr8]

But if the capacity is double, won't each cycle last double the time? So 400 days.

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, because they will make the batteries twice as small for your shiny new ultra-thin smartphone (careful, don't cut yourself with those razor sharp edges)

Re:200 cycles?

[KGIII]

I learned something new. iPhones are seamless and this was touted as a *very* important feature. (Some stretching was made involving potential breakage and whatnot.) I wish I had thought about the sharpness of those seams. I could have helped them out by pointing out that, without seams, they would be less likely to cut themselves too. More so with them getting thinner and thinner all the time.

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Replacing batteries every year is wasteful and expensive.

Re: 200 cycles?

[laurencetux]

no jenny would be (301) 867-5309

Re:200 cycles?

[angel'o'sphere]

I would say, yes! But that might depend on the usage pattern.

Re:200 cycles?

[StikyPad]

You would need half the cycles to do the same amount of work, but how long would "the same amount of work" really happen though? I think manufacturers would probably add features that are prohibitively expensive from a power budget standpoint today. That's an easier and more distinguishing selling point for competition than battery life. I mean, a flip phone will go for many days without needing to be recharged, if that's someone's primary consideration.

Re:200 cycles?

[StikyPad]

Not really. Anyone with sufficient skill and patience can cheaply replace their own battery, and manufacturers and third parties both offer that service if you'd rather not DIY. Whether it's worthwhile, of course, depends on how new your phone is, and the cost of an upgrade, but for many people in a 2 year contract, it's much cheaper to replace the battery, even through a service, than to upgrade or replace the phone.

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is the raging dumb-fuck that modded "off topic?" It more on topic than any other freaking comment here.

Lumpy has a very valid point, 200 cycles is low, ALL Li-Ion batteries have a very low charge discharge cycle life. When the hell do we get decent life? 2000 is a good start.

Re: 200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I purchase a phone on a 2 year contract and the internal non user serviceable battery needs replacing several times in that timeframe, that's a serious warranty issue and the device is not fit for purpose.

Re:200 cycles?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do recall that Lister was absolutely plastered at the time ....

Re: 200 cycles?

[ceoyoyo]

That's why you get a free phone when you sign a two year contract.

Re: 200 cycles?

[GigaplexNZ]

Which doesn't help me if the phone doesn't last 2 years.

Re: 200 cycles?

[ceoyoyo]

I mean, that's why you don't "purchase" a phone on a two year contract. The company gives you a "free" phone when you sign a two year contract, or a discount on a phone if you sign the contract (but the phone purchase is independent).

Maybe it's different with your company, but no cell company I've ever heard of warrants their phones for the entire contract period (unless it happens to be 1 year and the manufacturer's warranty is also 1 year).

I usually replace my phone batteries around 2 years, or a bit earlier if they need a screen replacement (as mine does now). New batteries for iPhones usually cost about $20 and take about 10 minutes to install. Five if you've got some practice.

Wow!

[pushing-robot]

And battery capacity just doubled last week! It's amazing that they can keep releasing breakthrough after breakthrough!

Re:Wow!

[Krishnoid]

It was actually cost that decreased by 50% last week. So hopefully nobody remembers that, and they can double their battery capacity and their profits at the same time!

But at what cost?

[Anonymous Coward]

More costly to make? Stable? How many times can it be recharged?

Now Li-Ion batteries can burn 1.5 to 1.8x longer

[JoeyRox]

For those cozy nights by the fire.

That's Wh/l or Whl^(-1)

[Anonymous Coward]

Watt-hours per liter. Units, stuff that matters.

And to think they'll misuse that

[obarthelemy]

to make half as thick phones, instead of phones that last twice as long...

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[thinkwaitfast]

I won't be satisfied with my phone until I can shave with it.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[fustakrakich]

Where have you been?

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[peragrin]

I just want fm receiver, and dual sim cards in a smart phone in the USA.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Back in the late nineties I had a phone that lasted 2 weeks on a charge. I ended up buying a second charger to have at work because twice a month my phone would die in the middle of the work day. Now I charge my phone every night and that doesn't happen anymore.

I'll take the thinner phone, thanks.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[just another AC]

I hope you are not serious... if you are:
Plenty (and i mean literally hundreds) of generic android phones from asian brands (including reputable ones like Lenovo or Xiaomi) that fulfill this criteria. You just need to stop drinking the Apple/Samsung/... et al. Kool-aid.

Just go to chinavasion, dx.com, etc etc and look at their phone sections.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[Anonymous Coward]

So it takes a vastly inferior capacity before you even consider checking the charge?

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[Trogre]

You're joking, right?

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[mlts]

I had a HTC Wizard, with its dual-core TI OMAP puttering along at 200 MHz. Doesn't sound like much, but it did well with calls, and could run a week without having to be charged. This was about a decade ago. Now, most of my smartphones won't persist beyond 24 hours unless I have them plugged into an external battery, or like my HTC One M8, enable the extreme battery saving mode, which replaces the Android Launcher default, disables Wi-Fi, and cellular communication, and only runs the absolute minimum of processes. This probably would make the phone's battery last a week, maybe more.

I sort of wish the philosophy behind apps wasn't "lets make these as fast as a gaming computer or console", but the old PalmOS philosophy of "do the job done right, and if it doesn't need CPU cycles, don't do it." Because of demand for ever faster CPUs and GPUs, phones have to get bigger and bigger for heat dissipation reasons. It would be nice for CPU speed to lag a bit to allow for a better battery life, perhaps adding deeper caches. Adding more RAM to a phone might help things as well. This way, phone shape can be dictated by what users want, not having to have ever larger surfaces for engineering reasons.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[AK Marc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Not shaving, but does cutting a watermelon with a phone count?

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[AK Marc]

My Oppo Find 7 will run 3 days or so if the screen doesn't come on. That's with cellular on (And in range, I've never had it out of range, but my Samsung Galaxy S3 would last about an hour if you were out of coverage). And it has a fast charger, charge about 1% per minute, so it's usable at 1 hour charge every 2 days. I'm no longer tied to a charger, like my S3 which, even under very light use, couldn't last an 8 hour day without being charged, so it was plugged in nearly 100% of the time.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Nah, it takes me having a communications device I can do a lot more communication with so I see the power bar more often.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The heavier the phone, the easier it is to break. Meanwhile, standby time is overrated.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? What is the benefit of a thinner phone?

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[Muad'Dave]

I have a Moto G dual sim w/ FM radio. I use T-Mobile and pay $10/3 months or so ($3/month).

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Less pocket space. Not as heavy, so if dropped it's less likely to break.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like you still only see phones as a communication device, but for most people the phone died years ago. What we have and want now are hand held computers that can also make calls. While I still all it a phone, I only use actual phone or texting features maybe 25% of the time, if I'm generous.

Larger phones aren't for cooling purposes, though it does help with that. The current larger Phablet form-factor came straight from the market. The Note line was hugely successful and people wanted more screen so they could carry one device most of the time instead of two (phone and tablet).

The market is defining all these changes and companies are just trying to keep up. Otherwise they'll end up like Palm.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[ToddInSF]

Screw that, I want a medical and physics tricorder.

Re:And to think they'll misuse that

[StikyPad]

The heavier the phone, the easier it is to break.

Did you mean "the lighter the phone," because if not, I've got a steel phone that begs to differ.

Re:Now Li-Ion batteries can burn 1.5 to 1.8x longe

[WindBourne]

Yes, but you have to start it with gas/diesel. That is the only way to get a real bang for the night.

Now answer these questions

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the power density? (Amount of energy delivered over time) What's the charge/discharge cycle lifetime? (How long until it loses ability to hold charge) What's the cost of producing each battery versus a traditional lithium ion battery?

Re:Now answer these questions

[GigaplexNZ]

What's the power density? (Amount of energy delivered over time)

That's not power density. That's just power. Power density is how much power (energy delivered over time) it can deliver per unit volume of battery. That's really only of concern for high power applications such as an electric race car. For most usages, energy density is far more valuable.

Tesla stock?

[DoofusOfDeath]

Any theories for why Tesla's stock price didn't pop on this news?

Re:Tesla stock?

[Mr D from 63]

Any theories for why Tesla's stock price didn't pop on this news?

Musk already had one big pop today.

Re:Tesla stock?

[Anonymous Coward]

Grue spoon!

Good. However....

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been scores of purported breakthroughs in this subject over the last ten years, but nothing dramatic has as yet hit the market. There have of course been noticeable improvements - but I still have to recharge my phone every night, and a decent range in an electric car will still set you back to the tune of nearly $100K. We'll see whether this is really becomes a breakthrough, or whether it is just another incremental step forward.

Re:Good. However....

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to recharge every night. Why not your phone? If it lasts a full day of use, what more do you want?

Re:Good. However....

[Anonymous Coward]

For it to last a weekend out camping. Or for it to last more than 4 hours while using it for GPS navigation (yes, even with a 2A car charger, the battery drains faster than it can charge).

Re:Good. However....

[AK Marc]

Stop using Samsung. My S3 sounds like that. But I switched to Oppo, and there's a world of difference. Put the phone in some reasonable power-savings for a weekend camping trip, and you'll be fine (at least I can do that with my Find 7). But my S3 wouldn't last 8 hours at work without a charge. Even if I never used it once in that time.

Re:Good. However....

[Cytotoxic]

I have a Samsung S6. It will charge from 10% to fully charged in a little over an hour on a car fast charger while navigating and playing podcasts. I learned this while driving cross-country last week, sharing a charger with 2 other s6 users. 30 hours each way - might not have survived without the podcasts!

That being said, there's no reason that I can see for keeping the batteries so small. Doubling or even tripling the size of the battery wouldn't seriously impact it's ergonomics, and it would allow you to candy crush your way from NY to LA.

Re:Good. However....

[AK Marc]

I gave up on Samsung with the S3. Given the claims and the reality, it isn't worth my money to try again after something so por and didn't do what they said. But other Android makers of the day beat the specs and weren't lying about them. But good to hear you have good experience with your S6

Re:Good. However....

[mattack2]

but I still have to recharge my phone every night, and a decent range in an electric car will still set you back to the tune of nearly $100K.

Your phone nowadays does way more than the one you used 10 years ago... and if you want to get a flip phone with a long battery time, you still can.

You are apparently one of the VERY few people who needs to drive a LONG distance every single day. Even removing the subsidy, you can get electric cars that easily do double the average commuter distance for 1/4 of your stated price. (Subtract $10K if you count subsidies for some states, e.g. CA + federal.)

Good math technique. 1.5 = 2.0

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The value of 1.5 is equal to 2 for small values of 2.0

Re:Good math technique. 1.5 = 2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

The value of 1.5 is equal to 2 for small values of 2.0

No, but 1.8 is equal to 2 for large values of 1.8.

Re:Good math technique. 1.5 = 2.0

[angel'o'sphere]

Yes, and 2.0 + 2.0 is 5 for large values of 2, we all know that!

Re:Good math technique. 1.5 = 2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

1.8 and 1.5 times higher than those of current commercial lithium-ion batteries.

The comparison to "current commercial" batteries is also suspicious. It's research. The comparison should be against the current state-of-the-art research.

Re:Good math technique. 1.5 = 2.0

[phantomfive]

You also need to ask, "How much will it cost?"

Let's not forget safety

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope that some internal protection can guard against fault conditions, so that these higher capacity batteries won't start a fire or blow up when shorted. A borderline part might be more likely to fail in transit due to being banged around, experiencing pressure changes with altitude, and perhaps seeing wider temperature swings (left in a hot car etc.).

It seems like any public transit of these batteries or products containing them must include safeguards to confine any fire that does occur, avoiding production of harmful gases, or secondary damage to anything important. Could it become practical to fill cargo areas with a nitrogen atmosphere? (bad news for stow-aways and pets)

Improved battery tech to allow household solar systems to meet night needs, or contribute to the grid anytime would be very welcome if the initial and lifetime cost, efficiency, capacity, and safety measure up. I'd like to see a new performance metric, the added cost per kw/hr for stored power. (figuring in lifetime, replacement labor, and salvage value of old batteries) What is the efficiency at non-extreme discharge rates? (100 * kwhout/kwhin) The losses certainly play a major role in choices of when to sell power with time-dependent rates.

It might be worth having neighborhood sharing clusters where energy can be sold or at least given within a group without a utility taking a big cut for transmission fees.

Con local interfaces to the grid be made smart enough to allow local pockets to stay alive during major outages? I'm thinking might be able to keep a neighbor or two up. The same sort of tech that selectively drops air conditioners offline unmet demand peaks could be extended to put a home in a low-energy mode. The scary part of that is that such a networking of things could carry serious security issues. (serious security flaws have already been found in the communications used by smart meters, what could possibly go wrong?)

Elon Musk

[Anonymous Coward]

Must be rolling in his grave.

Re:Elon Musk

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not dead.

Happens all the time

[grimJester]

There's news like this every week. None of these is clearly better cheaper or faster to market than any other breakthrough like it at this early stage. It all evens out to a fairly steady improvement over time. Battery weight and prices still keep halving every five years or so and that's already factored into stock prices, minus some risk.

Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[u19925]

Note that the paper says the capacity 1.8x at the beginning and 1.5x after 200 cycles. The smart phone batteries are rated at least 1000 cycles. Not sure what is the capacity after 1000th cycle. Until there are some numbers showing superior value at 1000th cycle, it will be hard to commercialize.

Re:Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[AK Marc]

They may be expecting an advantage to 1000 cycles, but have only tested to 200 because of the time involved, and released with 200, and are halfway to 1000 by now.

It's only your assumption that they aren't testing to 1000.

Re:Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[Dr_Barnowl]

Plus of course, 1.8x at brand new means that all other things being equal, you'll have many fewer charge cycles.

Would be interesting to see someone do the math, but the battery decay curve on these should be much shallower overall (until some doofus uses it to make a smaller phone - which isn't really very likely, they're already reaching the limits of what you can do in terms of structural strength if you can bend them by sitting on them...)

Re:Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[Anonymous Coward]

What if the numbers are the same, or marginally worse at 1000 cycles? Does that negate the advantage of having 80% better numbers initially, or 50% better numbers at 200 cycles?

This battery tech could well have a worse curve, but still provide more juice for your electronics longer than the current tech.

Re:Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[AK Marc]

Plus of course, 1.8x at brand new means that all other things being equal, you'll have many fewer charge cycles.

No, it doesn't.

a smaller phone - which isn't really very likely, they're already reaching the limits of what you can do in terms of structural strength

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Hmm, thinner than an iPhone, and they drive a car over it. Though I didn't see a bend test, they seem to be implying it's strong.

Re:Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[Dr_Barnowl]

That's at least the third time you shilled for that phone in this thread. You have an impressive array of marketing videos.

Re:Recharge seems to be bottleneck

[AK Marc]

Nope that's the first time for the R5 (the world's thinnest phone, or was last I checked). The other times were for the Find 7 (which I own), which was, at the time of purchase, the highest pixel density of any phone, though others have matched QHD, but in a (smaller) 5.1 screen.

Just because I'm happy with my purchase doesn't mean I'm a shill. Just trying to make the point that you can't judge every smartphone by the iPhone or Samsung de jour. So many complain about a specific flaw in a specific model, then generalize. Yes, thinner can mean weaker, that's why Oppo made a video of the world's thinnest phone cracking nuts, cutting apples and watermelons, and being run over by a car. If you still think that thin means weak, that's your insanity, not reality.

And yes, I watched all the marketing material and read many reviews before buying the Oppo, since I hadn't heard about them until I was looking for a replacement for my S3. The marketing videos seem relevant to the complaints here.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Advertizing hype

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been hearing about these "breakthroughs" for years. When are some of them actually going to become available? Yes there have been some minor improvements in battery tech over the years, but if you add up all these "doubles your capacity" claims, my cell phone should be lasting six months on a charge and be fully recharged in under three minutes.

old trick

[bigdavex]

Samsung Nanotech Breakthrough Nearly Doubles Li-Ion Battery Capacity

Without even reading the article, I can guess what they did from my own experience: use a hole punch and flip the battery over.

Tell us about "AlmostAllAdsBlocked+" Coren22

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & LMAO @ U, boy -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

FACT: "AlmostALLAdsBlocked+" is INFERIOR vs. hosts - hugely so!

AB+ doesn't even DO what it's supposed to fully anymore being BRIBED http://finance.yahoo.com/news/... not to!

AB+ doesn't do a FRACTION of what hosts do for more speed, security, reliability, + anonymity online!

AB+ EATS 128mb of RAM (vs. hosts @ 11 *maybe* tops via my program with CURRENT data, the important kind vs. current threats + ads) http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-conte...

AB+ adds messagepassing overheads!

AB+ operates in SLOWER usermode (vs. hosts in PnP kernelmode)

AB+ creates huge CPU consumption!

AB+ is also detectable by clarityray (via native browser methods) nullifying it (not hosts).

---

I use what you already have that works & does more with LESS, no less - you by way of comparison? Pile on "MoAr" that doesn't do as nearly as much & what it's supposed to do, massively inefficiently no less (see above)?

Ab+ NO LONGER DOES!

* AFTER ALL THAT?

AB+ = "better", Coren22?? LMAO - NO f'ing way!

If you say it is, you are *TRULY* stupid & I'd reply saying "argue with the numbers" & facts above, from reputable sources & analysis proving my points for me!

APK

P.S.=> Gonna go "cry in your cereal" now, boy?

(You ought to for being STUPID enough to use OR SUGGEST a blatantly INFERIOR solution! See above - it's fact & truth via reputable sources)... apk

Re:Tell us about "AlmostAllAdsBlocked+" Coren22

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, it's the HOSTs idiot again.

Dynamically assigned IP addresses makes a HOSTs file fucking useless.

Your solution is 100% inferior to SIMPLE COMMON SENSE.

Of course, someone as autistic and stupid as you can't even comprehend common sense in the first place.

Coren22: Questions 4u... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject, "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" - Can ab+ do 16 things hosts do for speed, security, & reliability:

1.) Protect vs. malicious sites/servers (past ads)
2.) Protect vs. fastflux botnets + stops C&C communique
3.) Protect vs. dynamic dns botnets + stops C&C communique
4.) Protect vs. DGA botnets + stops C&C communique
5.) Protect vs. downed DNS (adds reliability)
6.) Protect vs. DNS redirect poisoned dns
7.) Protect vs. trackers
8.) Protect vs. spam
9.) Protect vs. phish
10.) Protect vs. caps
11.) Get you past a dnsbl
12.) Keep you off dns request logs
13.) Speed up surfing by adblocks & hardcoded fav. sites
14.) Work on anything webbound (ie email programs) multiplatform.
15.) Give you easily controlled data
16.) Do all that & block ads more efficiently in cpu + memory usage vs. addons

* ANSWER ="NO" to each on ab+ doing it or as well + hosts = already on every device natively.

APK

P.S.=> Ab+ does less than hosts & less efficiently - hosts do MORE w/ less + Hosts start w/ the IP stack before REDUNDANT inefficient addons BEGIN to operate (as 1st resolver queried):

Ab+'s 128mb memory inefficiency -> http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-conte... (hosts consume 3-11mb using my program initially).

+

ClarityRay defeats it dumping addons in use in a browser via native browser methods to do so!

+

Ab+'s paid to not do its job http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...

Ab+ adds complexity + slower mode of operations (usermode = more messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode).

What's best?

APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-2 32/64-bit -> http://start64.com/index.php?o...

MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus http://www.av-test.org/en/news...

&

It's GUARANTEED safe & clean per it being checked by 57 antivirus programs recently in BOTH its 64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

+

In its 32-bit model also https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

... apk

Tell us about "AlmostAllAdsBlocked+" Coren22

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & LMAO @ U, boy -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

FACT: "AlmostALLAdsBlocked+" is INFERIOR vs. hosts - hugely so!

AB+ doesn't even DO what it's supposed to fully anymore being BRIBED http://finance.yahoo.com/news/... not to!

AB+ doesn't do a FRACTION of what hosts do for more speed, security, reliability, + anonymity online!

AB+ EATS 128mb of RAM (vs. hosts @ 11 *maybe* tops via my program with CURRENT data, the important kind vs. current threats + ads) http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-conte...

AB+ adds messagepassing overheads!

AB+ operates in SLOWER usermode (vs. hosts in PnP kernelmode)

AB+ creates huge CPU consumption!

AB+ is also detectable by clarityray (via native browser methods) nullifying it (not hosts).

---

I use what you already have that works & does more with LESS, no less - you by way of comparison? Pile on "MoAr" that doesn't do as nearly as much & what it's supposed to do, massively inefficiently no less (see above)?

Ab+ NO LONGER DOES!

* AFTER ALL THAT?

AB+ = "better", Coren22?? LMAO - NO f'ing way!

If you say it is, you are *TRULY* stupid & I'd reply saying "argue with the numbers" & facts above, from reputable sources & analysis proving my points for me!

APK

P.S.=> Gonna go "cry in your cereal" now, boy?

(You ought to for being STUPID enough to use OR SUGGEST a blatantly INFERIOR solution! See above - it's fact & truth via reputable sources)... apk

Coren22: Questions 4u... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject, "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" - Can ab+ do 16 things hosts do for speed, security, & reliability:

1.) Protect vs. malicious sites/servers (past ads)
2.) Protect vs. fastflux botnets + stops C&C communique
3.) Protect vs. dynamic dns botnets + stops C&C communique
4.) Protect vs. DGA botnets + stops C&C communique
5.) Protect vs. downed DNS (adds reliability)
6.) Protect vs. DNS redirect poisoned dns
7.) Protect vs. trackers
8.) Protect vs. spam
9.) Protect vs. phish
10.) Protect vs. caps
11.) Get you past a dnsbl
12.) Keep you off dns request logs
13.) Speed up surfing by adblocks & hardcoded fav. sites
14.) Work on anything webbound (ie email programs) multiplatform.
15.) Give you easily controlled data
16.) Do all that & block ads more efficiently in cpu + memory usage vs. addons

* ANSWER ="NO" to each on ab+ doing it or as well + hosts = already on every device natively.

APK

P.S.=> Ab+ does less than hosts & less efficiently - hosts do MORE w/ less + Hosts start w/ the IP stack before REDUNDANT inefficient addons BEGIN to operate (as 1st resolver queried):

Ab+'s 128mb memory inefficiency -> http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-conte... (hosts consume 3-11mb using my program initially).

+

ClarityRay defeats it dumping addons in use in a browser via native browser methods to do so!

+

Ab+'s paid to not do its job http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...

Ab+ adds complexity + slower mode of operations (usermode = more messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode).

What's best?

APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-2 32/64-bit -> http://start64.com/index.php?o...

MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus http://www.av-test.org/en/news...

&

It's GUARANTEED safe & clean per it being checked by 57 antivirus programs recently in BOTH its 64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

+

In its 32-bit model also https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

... apk

Tell us about "AlmostAllAdsBlocked+" Coren22

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & LMAO @ U, boy -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

FACT: "AlmostALLAdsBlocked+" is INFERIOR vs. hosts - hugely so!

AB+ doesn't even DO what it's supposed to fully anymore being BRIBED http://finance.yahoo.com/news/... not to!

AB+ doesn't do a FRACTION of what hosts do for more speed, security, reliability, + anonymity online!

AB+ EATS 128mb of RAM (vs. hosts @ 11 *maybe* tops via my program with CURRENT data, the important kind vs. current threats + ads) http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-conte...

AB+ adds messagepassing overheads!

AB+ operates in SLOWER usermode (vs. hosts in PnP kernelmode)

AB+ creates huge CPU consumption!

AB+ is also detectable by clarityray (via native browser methods) nullifying it (not hosts).

---

I use what you already have that works & does more with LESS, no less - you by way of comparison? Pile on "MoAr" that doesn't do as nearly as much & what it's supposed to do, massively inefficiently no less (see above)?

Ab+ NO LONGER DOES!

* AFTER ALL THAT?

AB+ = "better", Coren22?? LMAO - NO f'ing way!

If you say it is, you are *TRULY* stupid & I'd reply saying "argue with the numbers" & facts above, from reputable sources & analysis proving my points for me!

APK

P.S.=> Gonna go "cry in your cereal" now, boy?

(You ought to for being STUPID enough to use OR SUGGEST a blatantly INFERIOR solution! See above - it's fact & truth via reputable sources)... apk

You're ignorant of hosts' abilities dolt

[Anonymous Coward]

Hosts block malvertising, malscripted sites, botnet C&C servers + ads & much more for SECURITY!

Hosts also ADD SPEED speeding up access to your favorite sites where you SPEND MOST OF YOUR TIME ONLINE via hardcodes too which also aids RELIABILITY vs. downed or DNS poisoned DNS servers (via the kaminsky flaw of which 99.999% of ISP DNS are NOT patched against mind you).

Those hardcoded favorite sites of yours put @ the top of hosts as my program does -> http://start64.com/index.php?o...

Especially cached into RAM (as I do it, no context switch overhead to usermode, keeping it in kernelmode between tcpip.sys + the kernelmode diskcaching subystem) are as fast + efficient as it GETS!

That's since my program places your favorite sites WHERE YOU SPEND THE MOST TIME ONLINE @ THE TOP of hosts for fastest access FROM THE FASTEST RESOLVER THERE IS, hosts, LOCALLY since it's by default the 1st resolver queried by the IP stack itself in kernelmode unlike other BLOATED SLOWER "so-called 'solutions'" in "AlmostALLAdsBlocked" & its variants doing FAR MORE than those pieces of crap can too + MORE EFFICIENTLY BY FAR).

* So "Shoo, lil' troll" & LEARN A FEW THINGS before you shoot your ignorant piehole off here again, ok?

APK

P.S.=> What a BLUNDERING dolt I've just replied to, unbelievable... he ought to thank the merciful good Lord (of hosts) he was schooled as he just has been so he isn't as ignorant of what he spoke of here, in hosts... apk