Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
An anonymous reader writes: Evidence is piling up that sitting down all day is really bad for you. I work primarily from home, and as I grow older, I'm starting to worry about long term consequences to riding a desk full-time. We talked about this a few years ago, but the science has come a long way since then, and so have the options for standing desks. My questions: do you use a standing desk? What kind of setup do you have? There are a lot of options, and a lot of manufacturers. Further studies have questioned the wisdom of standing all day, so I've been thinking about a standing/sitting combo, and just switching every so often. If you do this, do you have time limits or a particular frequency with which you change from sitting to standing?
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I worked for one year at a company which offers standing desks. I found them to be pretty nice. It was hard to gauge productivity, because it was also my only time in an open office, so there were lots of other distractions I wasn't used to.
I'm in my early 40's, and I'm starting to run into a variety of back problems from poor posture / poor back muscle tone, as well as carpal tunnel and medial nerve (funny bone) problems from the way I rest my arms on the desk when coding. A standing desk helps with pretty much all of those things, if it can be easily readjusted over the course of the day to accommodate you need to both sit and stand.
The biggest problem is that decent standing desks aren't cheap, and companies treat them like a luxury. I seriously think there's a case for OSHA forcing companies to offer adjustable desks to office workers. Unfortunately, national politics don't currently favor such actions becoming reality.
If I have enough negotiating power, I'll make a standing desk a requirement for any future job I take.
It's a nice desk, fashionable, well-made, holds plenty of weight without complaint. It schedules when I should stand up and sit down, and the "breathe" gentle reminder is effective without being obtrusive.
The biggest downside is that the sensor that detects whether or not you are standing next to it is extremely picky about distance. Apparently I often stand too close and so it doesn't always recognize that I'm there and credit me accordingly. Also, it would be better if it integrated with Apple's HealthKit in addition to their own cloud stuff. Do I really want data about when I'm at my home office desk to even exist, let alone be stored in the cloud? No - that's pretty much a "Let's figure out the best time to burglarize my house" toolkit.
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I've been dabbling with standing desks a lot, and am getting to really like them, except that I find standing for extended periods considerably more uncomfortable than walking. I've considered doing the treadmill-desk thing, but don't really have the space for it. What I did find helps a lot is "rocker-bottom" shoes with thick curved soles such as Shape-Ups. The instability encourages me to be constantly moving and flexing my knees, drastically reducing the discomfort of standing still without requiring any expensive space-filling treadmills.
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I prefer the 135-degree angle slouch in a chair that can lean back over a standing desk. The ergonomics just can't be beat, especially when you consider what a standing desk does to your forearms (I see a lot of people with standing desks leaning on them).
I have a laptop where I work, and I periodically stick a cardboard box under my laptop and stand up at my desk. Maybe it's not ideal, but for the price I find it acceptable. You could always try this before you decide to shell out the 1k+, it's not like your body knows the difference. Also, as far as frequency goes, I did the whole 20 minutes/5 minutes thing, though I often forgot to sit down after five minutes.
your problem is possibly down to sitting around too much, one day you'll be stuck in that chair 24/7. Not good.
the answer is to get up and start using those muscles that have forgotten what they're there for,
I find it suspicious that sitting is suddenly mega-dangerous. I'm sure there are risks but they seem a bit exaggerated. Is this the new "fish oil" scam? A lot of the expensive standing desks and treadmills certainly look like a nice way to make money.
My company raised my desk (at my request) to a standing level a little over a year ago. I'm a generally healthy (10 lbs overweight) 48 year old guy and like most engineers, I get very little exercise. I was suffering from back pain a lot at the time. I made a really cushy thing for my feet (standing mat on top of plywood on top of 1x2 spacers so I get the extra flex from the plywood).
I keep a bar stool at my desk and alternate between sitting and standing throughout the day - averaging probably about half the time on each. When I try to stand more than half of my day, my feet start hurting.
I hate my standing desk. No doubt about it. Standing sucks. *BUT* I hated having backaches much more and those are essentially gone now. The only time my back hurts now is when I actually overdo it at home or I have a three day weekend and I spend a lot of time sitting in my recliner (like I did last holiday weekend). This tends to go away quickly and it's a pretty good trade-off.
At my last workplace I converted an Ikea desk (forget the model name) to something that would work as a standing desk. I have CP that affects my legs, so throughout the day I would alternate between standing on an anti-fatigue mat and sitting on a stool that approached the desired height.
What I found was that alternating between sitting and standing was ideal, but that I couldn't always focus on certain types of tasks while standing. Anything that required a lot of my attention caused me to sit down... Stuff like coding or deep troubleshooting. So I started sitting down more. Then I started developing some stiffness and pain in my neck and shoulders due to bad ergonomics caused by sitting on that stool.
My advice: Get a standing desk if you like, but ensure you get either an adjustable height desk (again, Ikea is now offering these with a turn crank or button press operation for a lot less than some places I've seen) or get a chair/stool that is the appropriate height. Also, don't think just because you're standing all day, you're getting healthier. You should still step away from your desk for a short break once at hour at the minimum, and walk around some.
I bought an electric adjustable height desk leg set (UpLift 900) from thehumansolution.com and bought a complete desk shell elsewhere for just the top (at quite a savings) in the size that I wanted. I like a deep desk and this one is 30". They've got even more options now for building your own desk including treadmills.
I found that standing didn't work out for me... however the adjustable height of the desk has made my sitting time far more comfortable and ergo.
I wouldn't go back. I have a standing desk at the office and my WFH space. At the office it was pretty easy because our cubes include adjustable work surfaces. For my office at home I built a standing desk with parts from IKEA for less than $250. It's basically a kitchen counter top on top of a bookcase. You need to make sure that you have the work space set up correctly with the keyboard and monitor at the proper height. With a standing desk you can't just keep slouching down.
Like any change a standing desk takes some getting used to for most people. I have been blessed with good posture and I have never had any back problems. Try it for a couple of hours at a time and work your way up. Make sure you're standing up straight, keep your arms at 90 degrees, and try to keep your monitor at a height where you can look straight ahead.
Beyond just standing, take frequent breaks to move around. Other posts on Slashdot have pointed out that frequent breaks and physical activity improve overall performance. Get off your ass, stand up straight and move.
I updated my work station about 2 years ago, and the wife wanted hers about 3-4 months later. I rarely use it in the sitting mode anymore, but I do really like being able to adjust the height to it isn't in the same position all the time.
I do have a nice mat because I like to roam around barefoot at home and more than a couple hours straight on hardwood without shoes made my feet unhappy. With decent shoes I never had an issue.
I went with an UPLIFT from http://www.thehumansolution.com/uplift-900-electric-sit-stand-desk-base-black.html I just got the base and made a table top out of 2x6 clear pine boards. I spent a little bit extra to get the undermount CPU holder...but needed to make some tweaks to get it to fit the desk like I wanted. I also just screwed a UPS to the underside so I only have one power cable. I think I found a coupon and free shipping and came in about $550 each, then bought a standing mat last year for $80 or so on amazon. I think I remember an email from them saying they have a cheaper option that doesn't have "memory" in the controller.
I have large monitors with lots of vertical real estate, so I like my eye level to be a couple inches below the monitor bezel, but I find I rarely adjust the monitor (it is connected to the desktop).
Good luck in your search, Oh, I have no association with the UPLIFT guys other than being a satisified customer.
For my setup, I got a cheap Chinese made standing desk frame and bought the table top from Ikea. I cut, sanded and stained the table to my liking. I also routed the wires and moved the up/down switch to where I'd want it. I previously had a Fit Desk stationary bike so I pulled the desk (it goes where the handlebars normally are) off and used under the standing desk. This whole setup was probably around $400 USD total. I could have done it cheaper buy buying the same stationary bike as the Fit Desk (can be found much cheaper at ~$70 USD)
I've always wondered about sitting on the floor with a pad and no back, and treating it like a meditative posture (so keeping a straight back is paramount). Has anyone tried this for work?
If not, has anyone spent a considerable amount of time meditating on the floor? I'm wondering if it's still stressful on your back a
Agreed. I found that static positions (no matter which kind, standing, sitting, laid down) are harmful in the long end. What I did to alleviate the issue:
- Got a wireless headset. During meetings, I walk around all the time, except when presenting something, of course.
- Got wireless mouse and keyboard. I can now shift positions in my chair easily
- Got used to above-mentioned position shifting. For example, I rotate my chair 180 degrees and lean forward on the back support, etc.
- Developed conscious realization of my static position. I learned to pay attention to what my body tells me. Whenever I get those signals, I shift position.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Like most desks-with-chairs, the ideal work environment is going to be unique to the person and to the task.
I find writing with a paper and pen or typing for less than a few minutes at a time easier to do if I don't have to change my standing or sitting mode. I find doing the same for between a few minutes and about half an hour somewhat easier to do sitting down than standing. If I'm writing or typing more than half an hour I'm probably going to take a break anyways.
I find it uncomfortable to stand more than 6-8 hours a day or more than 1-2 hours without a 20-30 minute sit-down break, but that's just me. When I was in better physical shape (read: when I was a teenager), I could do stand-up work in a restaurant all day with just a sit-down break for meals.
As far as which stand-up desk/workstation will work best for me? I'm not sure. Given my current job requirements, I doubt any would be as good as an ordinary adjustable sit-down office chair and a typical office computer desk. I'm almost certain your job requirements are not exactly the same as mine so your ideal work environment will very likely be different as well.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The science to it is basically this: When sitting, your metabolism slows, you burn less calories, and all the fun that goes with that - higher likelihood to be overweight, thus higher blood pressure, cardiac issues, and so on. We have studies that prove this too.
So, don't sit right? Well, standing isn't very good for you either, not for long periods of time. We're lacking any really hard science on what the optimal time period really is, although we know that it's variable depending on the person. We do know that you're more at risk for immediate health problems from long periods of standing rather than sitting (which results in longer term, less immediate issues). For example, even with a soft gel mat, after a few weeks, one stander ended up with medical conditions.. They're not just an anomaly either; back pain, carotid atherosclerosis - a circulation issue, varicose veins, pinched nerves, and more are associated with long periods of standing.
The fact is that we don't really know how much standing is enough to ward off the dangers of sitting, and worse, we don't know how much standing is too much and will result in health problems. There's probably an optimal healthy point, but we don't have any studies that show where that optimal healthy point is on average, much less how it needs to be adjusted for an individual.
It's also important to note that positive claims associated with standing desks that are not associated with physical well-being, such as increased mental capacity, creativity, memory, attentiveness, productivity and so on, are largely due to recirculating personal anecdotes, which we know carry a strong bias and use no objective measures for comparison. What few studies there have been show no evidence of benefit, nor of detriment. In a obvious note though, they show that treadmill or cyling desks DO reduce attention and productivity by a significant amount, and they haven't been shown to result in any impressive health gains either - users average weight loss of only about 3 lbs a year, for example, and that's about the only study you'll find on the subject!
What this all means is that, scientifically speaking, advocating for the health benefits of a standing desk is about the same as advocating for the health properties of barefoot running, clay cleansing (or really any cleanses, including charcoal, pickle juice, and others), and the whole genre of fad diets.
There's no scientific proof that shows they are a net benefit, which means you shouldn't assume they provide one. They are just standard junk science until then - taking a fact or finding and running with it past the point and on to speculation and pure fantasy. In fact, these are more akin to the fad diets, in that you're not only not gaining a benefit, you're that much more likely to cause harm to yourself. Standing desks are the new fen phen.
If you're worried about staying healthy, skip the fads and just add an exercise plan to your day. Take a 40 minute walk at lunch. Maybe workout a few times a week. Eat healthy, but more important in most western countries, eat a proper portion size. That's all it really takes.
A couple years ago I got a demo of an Ergotron adjustable arm, and have been using it every since. I like it a lot, but it isn't without its flaws.
First off, make sure you have an anti-stress mat to stand on. When I first started to use the arm, my feet became really sore. Standing all day on what was essentially a concrete floor with a few millimeters worth of "carpet" was too hard on my soles. The anti-stress mat relieved that completely.
Second, once you stand and raise your computer screen, you now have to raise everything else with it. This likely won't be an issue if your entire desk surface is up high, but whereas I have an arm that mounts to a normal desk it is something I've had to deal with. My keyboard, mouse, and monitors are at standing level, but my phone and anything else on my desk is down where I have to reach for it. Being in IT support, my primary computer (Windows) is on the arm while my secondary (MacBook) is on a stand on a box.
Third, standing takes getting used to, and eventually you will stand most of the time. However, sometimes you will want to sit. You'll want to have an option to sit down, whether it's an adjustable desk/arm or you can go somewhere else and work for a time.
Finally, and this is an issue mainly for my current solution with a desk-attached arm, be sure your desk/arm can hold everything you want. My Ergotron arm model is capable of dual displays, but the 23" Dells I use strain the weight limit of the arm. If I add anything more with any appreciable weight, the arm sinks down to the desk.
Overall I like my solution, and will not go back to a sitting-only desk.
mr.nobody
--Don't you wanna go where nobody knows your name?
At 6'5" and two lumbar surgeries, I have long faced back issues.
I do have and occasionally use a Exerpeutic 2000 WorkFit High Capacity Desk Station Treadmill. I'm in a bit of an open space, so it's not that practical to use during the day since it makes noise, but I can use it at night after others have gone home. It has a laptop on a stand on top of it (so the screen is about eye level), and on either side is half teh keyboard of a very old Kinesis split keyboard. It works great: I can walk readily at 5-7mph and read and type at about normal speed.
As my main sitting setup, I use a Faulkner 48977 Laguna Style Dual Burgundy Padded Recliner with Plastic Armrests, X-Large, with a keyboard on my lap (which is not the most ergonomic thing ever, but I don't experience carpel tunnel) and a laser mouse balanced precariously on the armrest. The mouse falls off the armrest relatively often.
I have the opportunity to work standing as well as sitting at my desk since it can be elevated. However I don't think that standing is much better, the problem is non-movement.
Unfortunately working with computers is hard when walking around.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
You shouldn't need modern science to tell you that working all day every day, especially in your older years, is bad for you. Standing, sitting, laying, bending, reading, writing, seeing, listening, . . .it all doesn't matter. If you're concentrating on anything -- mentally or physically -- to the exclusion of all else, it'll be bad for you.
But you really ought to be thankful that you'll die sooner, since you're just working your life away.
Instead of trying to work in a healthier manner, you might want to try working less. Move thirty minutes farther from down-town, drop your cost-of-living by 50%, and start enjoying the kinds of hobbies that are effectively free.
I've been using a Lifespan 1200 walking treadmill with an appropriate height desk for about 2 years and did a standing desk for about 6 months before that. The walking desk is easier on your feet and burns more calories (directly from walking and indirectly via reduced 'resting state' time). Shoes required are very different - standing requires firm ankle support with a multi-layer sole & insole combination, while walking requires high quality shoes that limit your side-to-side foot roll.
Unfortunately, this program doesn't come cheap. You can spend $1500 for a desk & treadmill combination. (Much less if you want a crappy setup that you won't happy with, or with custom-built setup that you create yourself). Insoles replacements can add up, though shoe costs are not a problem long term if you buy high quality expensive shoes to start.
If you want absolute low cost, skip the desk and focus on frequent natural movements & a simple diet of the essentials. A rigorous exercise program can make you very fit, but won't give the long term cardio benefits of walking. Strength training will increase muscle mass that will increase your caloric load, but it doesn't give any cardio benefits at all. Diet only can eliminate the problems of weight and nutritional imbalances, but doesn't improve your cardio.
Combine a desk program with an intelligent nutritional plan (the correct nutrients at the correct time, with the correct caloric load) and you can lose a lot of weight. (I lost 100 lbs in two years.) After you reach ideal weight, you will likely find yourself consuming as much calories as what made you overweight. (If you do this, make sure you will stick with the the walking desk regimen long term for the health benefits, if you go back to sitting again, you just put yourself on the yo-yo diet program.
Standing all day is really difficult at first. It took me about two weeks to adjust, but it's still slightly uncomfortable if I stand in one place for more than about 20 minutes without moving. I consider this a feature, not a bug. Things I've noticed:
bad:
- I get frustrated more easily when coding. I often find that I have to leave my desk and pace around more often
- not comfortable
- I want to leave my desk a lot, which is bad for wearing headphones. get wireless headphones.
good:
- I don't feel tired after lunch. in general, if you're already tired, it's much easier to stand and be alert than sit and be alert
- my back feels great. I find myself unable to maintain even remotely decent posture while sitting, but I find it easier to straighten my back when standing
- I sort of absentmindedly wander around the room while thinking. This keeps me moving which is good, and I think better while pacing anyway, for some reason
- at the end of the day I feel like I've done actual *work* and I find it easier to get to sleep at a reasonable time.
Overall, it's definitely worth it.
I started standing about 15 years ago. At the time I was having pretty bad RSI issues with my hands and forearms. I stand all day, every day, it works great for me. I move around a fair amount from one foot to the other, sometimes lean on the desk. My RSI issues are history and I am generally very happy with the setup. I think part of the reason that it is so good ergonomically is that while slouching and standing _is_ possible, it isn't really all that relaxing, thus my posture is much better standing compared to sitting.
I have modified a typical sitting desk to fit my needs; it works quite well. I stacked up boxes and upside down flower pots to get everyting at the right height (keyboard so forearms are roughly horizontal and monitor at eye level). I stand barefoot on a foam camping pad (Ridgerest) folded in half so it is double thickness. Here is a picture of the desk (SFW):
http://i.imgur.com/S16AWp8.jpg
By all means, spend a $1000 on a desk if that is what works for you, your body is important and in the long term $1000 may be worth it. However, you might try a lower cost alternative at least to start out to see how it feels.
I'm a coder who stands all day ...and I've been doing it for over two years now. I used to experience back pain when I sat all day, but that went away after a month or so.
Interesting to hear your anecdote, but just wanted to make sure on something...do you keep your wallet in your back pocket? This results in a very significant percentage of men's back problems in office environments. My back pain went away when moving the wallet to the front pocket, no change in sitting/standing required.
Regular breaks is what you need, not a break where you go check some youtube videos, but a break where you do some exercises. When I worked from home, I had a elliptical in the other room and I aimed to do thousand steps every hour. It took a few minutes, but not long enough to start sweating. Other things I did was just some exercising like push ups, pull ups, squats, sit-ups. Not that many, but enough to get a burning feeling. It just takes a few minutes every hour, and you boost your muscle tone as a nice side effect. I also did some cardio training somewhere during the day. This would depend on how I felt, I planned to do this in the morning but I'm a real night person, so I ended doing it after work. This forced me to stop working on time, and do my 10 hours of work every day, of course 10 hours including all the breaks. I only worked like 6 hours a day, and I was more productive than before when I worked 9 hours straight, afraid of leaving my desk (I can not miss a IM or e-mail!).
So I suggest, first start to take regular breaks, and than start to wonder what desk would be better for your posture. Standing all day is also not ideal, but it feels good when you switch from 20 years of sitting to your first weeks of standing.
Currently I've another job that doesn't allow us to work from home, and where we sit all day for 9 hours straight. After almost a year I am again suffering from old annoyances, like numb legs, lower back pain, pain in my shoulder... sitting all day long is the unwritten rule number one to be productive in this new culture... and it is not good. I even got an injury while exercising in the evening and apparently is was caused by being inactive for too long hours (9 hours office + 2 hours commute by car = 11 hours) followed by sporting too hard.
I am working at my desk for 10h+ per day. After I started my freelance work in my own office and a longer period of sickness due to back problems, I searched for the same topic. In the end, I got an electric standing-sitting-desk base for around 500 bucks and put a 2,5m tabletop on myself - the prebuilt and "professional" electronic tables were 1k+ for the cheapest and that was too much money back then.
I switch positions a few times a day between sitting, standing and standing/sitting on a bar stool (according to the research I read before buying, it's not the sitting that hurts you most - it's staying in the same position for too long). Also, I now put 3 small water bottles with magnesium on the table and try to drink them over my workday - helps concentration and creeping dehydration and forces you to move due to natural urges.
Also, I've just bought a new office chair due to my height, because the previous one simply did not support my neck in any way. With the new one, I also have a nice headrest and can really switch between relaxation through sitting and muscle activation through standing.
However, buying fancy furniture does not help by itself. You also need to do some sort of sport to train your muscles (preferably a team sport, because of the naturally diversified activation of muscles throughout your body) and you should do some reading on ergonomic desk setup. At one of my previous employers, I was sick for a few weeks due to a wrong combination of desk height and monitor arrangement. That lead to a wrong positioning of my neck, which in turn resulted in an inflamed nerve center - not nice.
TLDR: Do yourself a favor and get a matching chair and electric table matched on your height and weight, check your desk setup and remember to get into some sport-routine.
Humans are rarely really still. Crocodiles beat us handily in that department (and in no-rules mixed martial arts too, but I digress). "Thinking hard" also causes lots of semi-voluntary movements.
When sitting, in a chair with back support - these same movements largely get restricted to neck, feet, arms from elbows till finger tips, slight weight shift along the bottom. When standing, new possibilities open up.
It is not unusual to see standing desk people moving feet around - this feet movement is 20 times more energy intensive than sitting feet movement because the feet are supporting much more weight. Same goes for small bends in knee and ankle joints. Arms are also now free to move much more, even backwards. Torso bends when standing are more energy intensive too. People are also motivated to not keep paper, pen, odds and ends very close to the place of work, but arrange it at some distance such that it is 2-3 small steps to fetch them rather than "making a long arm" that people typically do in a sitting desk.
So simply switching sitting to standing does switch sitting issues to standing issues, but while moving larger parts of the body more frequently. Circulation and calorie consumption increase.
And yes, as you too agree, mixing these up and adding some walking is even better.
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I've been using this for years, since sudden onset of sciatica forced me to forego sitting more and more. It's really good.
I switch it with working on a couch, using a laptop in my lap (not for long periods, just an hour or so).
Both do wonders for me, but YMMV. I also find that even very moderate exercise (running on the spot for 150 steps, once a day) helps me a lot, too. I plan to get training more, but there's been a few things in the way..
I now stand up while surfing the Internet all day at home.
I an retired.
I stand up, because about a year ago I started to spontaneously bleed and found it very painful sitting down.
It was a pressure sore.
A lump developed under the skin as well as the bleeding.
I now stand at a computer desk with the laptop on top of my HP printer.
A bit high, and my bandaged feet are sore after 8 hours (don't ask), but better than the worry of GANGRENE.
It also puts an edge to your decisions, sitting down is more relaxing (unless you develop pressure sores), so you might be inclined to ignore problems you come across, or let insults go by.
Standing up to speak on a telephone, or now as it seems, muck about on the computer, leads to more alert mind that can respond to situations that you might make a wrong decision for, that you later regret.