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Lifting the Veil On Pluto's Atmosphere

New submitter Pedro Braganca sends an update on the New Horizons mission to Pluto, now less than four days to closest approach. While we're waiting, NASA has published the best images of Pluto and Charon yet seen. We're starting to be able to make out surface details: A high-contrast array of bright and dark features covers Pluto's surface, while on Charon, only a dark polar region interrupts a generally more uniform light gray terrain. The reddish materials that color Pluto are absent on Charon. Pluto has a significant atmosphere; Charon does not. On Pluto, exotic ices like frozen nitrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide have been found, while Charon's surface is made of frozen water and ammonia compounds. The interior of Pluto is mostly rock, while Charon contains equal measures of rock and water ice. A countdown to closest approach is present on the New Horizons mission page, as well as the raw image feed.

79 comments

  1. Frozen by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 5, Funny

    Charon is about 750 miles (1200 kilometers) across, about half the diameter of Pluto—making it the solar system’s largest moon relative to its planet.

    Sounds like someone at NASA is still not over Pluto not being a planet. Let it go... let it go...

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    1. Re:Frozen by turkeydance · · Score: 5, Funny

      but, but, Pluto identifies as a planet.

    2. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Charon is about 750 miles (1200 kilometers) across, about half the diameter of Pluto—making it the solar system’s largest moon relative to its planet.

      Sounds like someone at NASA is still not over Pluto not being a planet. Let it go... let it go...

      No issues. Read it as "... [dwarf] planet." and everything is ok.

    3. Re:Frozen by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Because it becomes a useless definition. Moons would be considered planets under the round definition.

      The only place a moon is a planet should be astrology, and fuck astrology. :)

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    4. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with being both a planet AND a moon? Phobos and Deimos are wirely regarded as moons of Mars, yet nobody could mistakes them for planets. "Moon" simply means "satellite" or possibly "natural satellite".

    5. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well Charon isn't a moon anyway. Since the center of gravity between the two isn't within Pluto (or Charon), it isn't a moon. So NASA, of all people, got that wrong too.

    6. Re:Frozen by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Because being imprecise with calling moons planets is astrology's job. Even the sun is called a planet in astrology, as would your definition. As I've already explained.

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      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    7. Re:Frozen by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      It is just a person using the most convenient terminology.

      I think we all understand perfectly well that a planet is, by established tradition, a very large object (by human measures) that orbits one or several stars, that has been shaped into a ball by its own gravity and that is ot a star itself. The use of the word "planet" in "dwarf planet" supports this point.

      It is probably fine if different people use different lower size limits for what qualifies as large enough to be a proper planet. All that amounts to is a value in the condition of a database search in a database of all the objects orbiting a star, and I think it's perfectly fine that different scientists would want to make different searches in such a database depending on what they are interested in.

    8. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see no imprecision in my usage of "moon". There are surely corner cases (such as Charon), but corner cases are going to be there with any other definition too.

      Instead i see imprecision in calling Pluto NOT a planet: it possibly was orbiting there since before Triton was captured by Naptune, did Triton stop being a planet at that point? Was it never a planet? Why should we look at the orbit of a planet to call it a planet? What about all the planets that likely smashed into the Sun during the great migration? Not planets because their orbits didn't survive for billions of years? Should we put temporal limits to the orbits of planets before we call them planets? It makes no sense, and complicates things for no reason at all...

      There are corner cases between stars and planets too, and you are just ignoring them: at which point does a brown dwarf becomes a planet? We just pick up a mass and stick to it, what else do you propose?

      I assumed the astrology stuff was a joke, should we pick scientific definitions in opposition to homeopathy too? Couldn't we just ignore it?

    9. Re:Frozen by myowntrueself · · Score: 5, Funny

      but, but, Pluto identifies as a planet.

      Are you saying that Pluto is a trans-planet?

      Maybe it can get some cosmetic surgery, oops sorry 'planetary status reassignment surgery'.

      --
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    10. Re:Frozen by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Your imprecision is allowing a moon to be called a planet.

      Pluto is called a dwarf planet. Your other points are non-problems. Yes, the planets that have been smashed up? They are no longer planets. Do you want to call the entire asteroid belt a planet just because it may have been one in the past?

      Giving similar objects different names in context is not strange to science. Do you also complain about the difference between meteor, meteoroid and meteorite? They literally are the same object but at different points in its life. Get over it.

      And yes, we should pick scientific definitions that at least tries to avoid confusion with pseudoscience. Like it or not, that is the reality of the world, and the average person has a much harder time telling the difference between the two. Leave the overreaching definitions to the quacks and the postmodernists.

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    11. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, we are on a satellite, orbiting the sun, which itself is another satellite, orbiting...what...some super massive black hole in at the center of our galaxy...?

      You diseased creatures love to argue over semantics. You probably argue over "global warming" vs. "Climate change" too, as you cruise around with the air conditioner and stereo both blasting blasting in your car, with its fossil fuel powered engine and after-market exhaust pipe.

      And by the way not that it matters one iota but astrologers are more concerned with gravity than semantics of "planets" vs. "moons". It is, they claim, the driving force that effects us, as the moon effects the ocean tides on Earth. Yes, and now I feel strangely compelled to tell you that I'm not an astrologer, and I don't believe in it at all. I do however feel that one should at least be precise in one's criticisms, when one is smacking the Twinkie out of the hand of the man who is restocking the vending machines.

    12. Re:Frozen by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      So they're both space stations? Some trap...

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    13. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe NASA is just following IAU nomenclature. From Pluto:

      The IAU has not formalized a definition for binary dwarf planets, and Charon is officially classified as a moon of Pluto.

    14. Re:Frozen by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      By the new definition of planet, the Earth is technically not a planet, nor is Jupiter, as they have neither of them cleared their orbit. The Earth has small objects in its orbit, and Jupiter has the trojan asteroids. So that is two fewer planets, that should make the astronomers that redefined planets more happy. Since it was a union of astronomers (star studiers) that changed the definition, and a small percentage of them at that, why do we listen to them, when planetary scientists such as the guy in charge of New Horizons disagree with them?

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    15. Re:Frozen by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      While we all like to think we can rationally debate things based on one phrase, the reality is the definition is a bit more precise than that one sentence. Don't judge a criteria by its headline.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    16. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Charon is about 750 miles (1200 kilometers) across, about half the diameter of Pluto—making it the solar system’s largest moon relative to its planet.

      Sounds like someone at NASA is still not over Pluto not being a planet. Let it go... let it go...

      That old argument again? To me it seems that you are the one who is unable to let it go.

    17. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Your imprecision is allowing a moon to be called a planet."

      I'm not imprecise. I gave a definition of moon, there is no reason to prevent a planet from being a moon, in fact Triton is a perfect example. I gave proper examples where no confusion could possibly arise. You didn't point out any problematic counterexample, and actually didn't propose any alternative definition, so i'm left with imagining your definition of "moon"...

      "Pluto is called a dwarf planet."

      Which according to common sense is still a planet (later on you appeal to the wisdom of the people, torned between science and pseudoscience because of bad scientific definitions), so according to you the story was correct and yet you were wrong while crafting your joke as first poster. Doesn't matter. I actually liked the joke, but wanted to comment on the problematic status of the definition of planet according to the IAU because of the orbit thing that shouldn't be there, many people still seems to not get the problem.

      "They are no longer planets."

      I asked if they were planets BEFORE smashing, when obstensively they HADN'T cleared their orbit, so i assume you prefer to ignore the issue...

      "Do you want to call the entire asteroid belt a planet just because it may have been one in the past?"

      The asteroid belt was never a planet in the past, but if it was it should have been called that before breaking up. Still no reason not to call Ceres a planet...

      "Do you also complain about the difference between meteor, meteoroid and meteorite?"

      Here's a good analogy: small rocks traveling in space (currently or in the past) are also called meteoroids and meteorites (a meteor could be better though as a phenomenon, but whatever), yet this doesn't stop being rocks.
      A bigger clump of rocks is an asteroid or comet. It shouldn't depend on where it is. An asteroid becomes ALSO a moon when it orbits a more massive object, it doesn't stop being an asteroid when it happens. There are asteroids that occasionally and temporarily orbit the Earth a few times before returning to their own orbit. They could also be called moons while they orbit the earth. It is all very clear and non confusing. Phobos and Deimos are both moons (simply according to the "moon" definition) and yet are still asteroids, just look at them...
      An even bigger one, in hydrostatic equilibrium, is a planet (a dwarf planet should just be a subset of planets below a certain mass or radius). A planet becomes also a moon when it orbits a more massive planet. Titan is even bigger than Mercury, it's a full planet (or Mercury is a dwarf one).

      Being in orbit around something more massive is a potentially temporary condition and doesn't change the nature or the origin of an object, so it shouldn't obviously change it from planet to non planet, or from asteroid to non asteroid, just like being in space doesn't change a rock from being a rock.

      "And yes, we should pick scientific definitions that at least tries to avoid confusion with pseudoscience."

      At the expense of general clarity? Not at all. And i seriously doubt the IAU used that criterium for picking their definition. I really don't understand your insistence with astrology, nobody mistakes the sun for a planet, who cares?

      "the average person has a much harder time telling the difference between the two."

      The average person also has a lot of trouble telling the difference between planet and dwarf planet, as abundantly demostrated in the past years. And scientists mistake moons too, as Charon in this story. I too have troubles with Pluto as dwarf planet, has it cleared its orbit? it's bizzarelly elliptical and intersects the orbit of Neptune, it doesn't make any sense... Do they count on it being in resonance? But resonance is a temporary phenomenon, so it could "unclear" its orbit? It's just a bad definition. Anyway people have no trouble at all telling that Mercury is a planet and Vesta is not. In fact, it feels natural to call our Moon a planet too because it is round: https://

    18. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhh, these don't look like planets:
      http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/soc/Pluto-Encounter/data/pluto/level2/lor/jpeg/029807/lor_0298079102_0x633_sci_1.jpg

    19. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The definition is bad. If it isn't sufficiently self explanatory it is the epitome of a bad definition. Their goal was to avoid an inflation of planets in the solar system, but for that you only need a much simpler mass or radius discriminant between planet and dwarf planet. They also wanted to include Mercury but exclude all the moons. therefore it's a mess, it ignores extrasolar planets, wandering planets (we might find some in the next few years), and all kinds of evolving conditions. Also note: "The IAU's definition does not attach specific numbers or equations to this term". Not very helpful nor self explanatory.

    20. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You refer of course to the laughably ambigious IAU definition. They should be ashamed of themselves for putting that out. Here's a better definition of a planet.

      Planet:

      An object large enough to acheive a spherodial shape through it's own gravity but too small to acheive nuclear fusion.

      Simple enough. Yes, I know that includes moons.

      Moon: A planet in orbit around a larger planet.

      Finally, to keep the school kids from having to memorize thousands of objects.

      Classical Planet: A planet other than Luna visible to the naked eye.

      The problem with the IAU definition is that it's just trying to do too much.

      Yes, Uranus and Neptune don't get to be classical planets. So what? It would be nice if school kids could at least be able to look at the stars and recognize what they see. But then again, it would help if they could see them (damn light pollution).

    21. Re:Frozen by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      "Is it round" is even worse because it doesn't explain anything. And no, that wasn't their goal. The goal was to actually define what a planet means, because there wasn't one, and the discovery of more Kuiper belt objects meant the word was becoming meaningless.

      And no, it doesn't ignore extrasolar planets or wandering planets. They'll get a category of their own when we find them. Like how adding the word "dwarf" to Pluto-class objects. There is absolutely NO trouble to add the word "extrasolar", for example, to denote the new category. It is simply not a problem. Adding an extra word as a qualifier has never been a problem. The world isn't going to end.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    22. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that "being round" is not a particularly useful property on which to distinguish objects in space. Objects juts above the mass limit for condensing into a sphere and objects juts below it frequently behave indistinguishably so there's no good reason to draw a distinction.

      Whereas an object that is by a wide margin the biggest thing in it's orbit will behave very differently from the smaller objects in it;s orbit (namely it'll throw them around and possibly deposit them in a Lagrange point, rather than be thrown around).

    23. Re:Frozen by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Uhh, these don't look like planets:
      http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/soc/Pl...

      But if it feels inside like all its life its really been a planet, who are you to judge. Insensitive clod!

      --
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    24. Re:Frozen by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Since the center of gravity between the two isn't within Pluto (or Charon), it isn't a moon. So NASA, of all people, got that wrong too.

      NASA, of all people, don't actually use the center of gravity thing as a criterion for planet-ness or moon-ness. Neither does the IAU (according to them, Charon is officially a moon of Pluto). It's a popular proposal, but that's all it is, and it has its faults.

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    25. Re:Frozen by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Uhh, these do.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    26. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those look photoshopped or underexposed or something, there's no stars. The real raw images look like giant starships either engaging or deactivating warp drives.

      http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/soc/Pluto-Encounter/data/pluto/level2/lor/jpeg/029807/lor_0298079821_0x633_sci_1.jpg

    27. Re: Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are all moons to the sun.

    28. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Objects juts above the mass limit for condensing into a sphere and objects juts below it frequently behave indistinguishably so there's no good reason to draw a distinction."

      "Clearing the neiborhood" is just as arbitrary, you have to decide on a cutoff on total mass of neighbors, and the current definition doesn't even do that.

      "Whereas an object that is by a wide margin the biggest thing in it's orbit will behave very differently from the smaller objects in it;s orbit (namely it'll throw them around and possibly deposit them in a Lagrange point, rather than be thrown around)."

      Well why not call it instead "dominant planet" or something to that tune? Dwarf planet is extremely confusing, because everybody thinks about the size or mass, while by IAU definition there could be a dwarf planet bigger than Mercury.

    29. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't care who discovered them. I'm not even American.
      I look at pictures of Mercury, Ceres, Pluto, and they seem like planets.
      I look at pictures of Vesta and Pallas, they seem like asteroids.
      Also i have no trouble calling our Moon a planet too (and all other big moons from Io to Triton), just like i have no trouble calling Phobos and Deimos asteroids. The ISS is as bright or brighter in the night sky as Deimos is on Mars, being an artificial moon doesn't stop the ISS from being a space station, just like being a natural moon doesn't stop Deimos from being an asteroid.
      Astronomers can make up as many useful categories as they like: giant planets, gaseus planets, rocky planets, super-earth planets, dwarf planets, orbiting or co-orbiting planets, dominant planets, extrasolar planets, wandering planets, plutoid planets, whatever, they still all look like planets. If there are 100 or more in the solar system so be it.

    30. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Clearing the neiborhood" is just as arbitrary, you have to decide on a cutoff on total mass of neighbors, and the current definition doesn't even do that.

      There are multiple measures of this that all show a several orders of magnitude gap between the objects labeled as dwarf planet and planet. The division is pretty clear. If this changes at some point in the future, the definition can be revised. The whole point is it is there to just easy communication of what set of objects is being referred to, and that can change as sets of objects grouped together in literature change.

      Dwarf planet is extremely confusing, because everybody thinks about the size or mass, while by IAU definition there could be a dwarf planet bigger than Mercury.

      It is still correlated with size, as ability to clear out the orbit scales with mass squared. Mercury is over 20 times more massive than Pluto and 400 times as capable of clearing out an orbit. For a Mercury sized planet to have a comparable orbit clearing ability to Pluto, it would need to be over 50 times further from the Sun.

    31. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a better definition of a planet. ...

      Except if you look at how planet is actually used in written communication and literature, your definition would require a huge amount of reference to "the planets, not counting moons and ...". What makes a definition good is its ability to facilitate concise communication. If your definition requires people to attach qualifiers more often than not, it is not a good definition, and only increasing the amount of words people will need to use.

      Your proposal sounds like the people who claim one should be counted as a prime number, because it makes the definition more concise, when there is no reason a particular definition needs to be as concise as possible. There are a vast number of use of the term "prime numbers" in math that would become "prime numbers not including one" if the definition were changed, and very, very few theorems and references that currently refer to "prime numbers and one." Similarly in astronomy literature, there are very few references to 'round objects' collectively including moons compared to references to planets under current definition or minor planets or rocky bodies in general.

    32. Re:Frozen by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      If you think 100% of a planet's orbit needs to be cleared, roundness doesn't work any better. Earth has mountains, so it's not completely round, so it's not a planet!

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      This space intentionally left blank
    33. Re:Frozen by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      [half the diameter of Pluto--making it the solar system's largest moon relative to its planet.] NASA is still not over Pluto not being a planet. ...

      It's a "binary dwarf planet system" (perhaps "multi-" if you add the other moons.) Sorry, but still no capital "P". Deal.

      Enjoy the show regardless. Both are interesting worlds even if they were classified as "snarfpukers". They are beautiful worlds.

    34. Re:Frozen by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Hell, even Pluto wants to be a Kardashian gal? You'd think traveling that far out could get away from all that crap.

    35. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the photos that include a description stating they are long exposures for the purposes of looking for new moons and/or potential hazards from passing by Pluto very closely, and hence are way over saturated for Pluto and Charon, causing both horizontal and vertical lines due to how the detector handles over-exposure?

    36. Re:Frozen by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Moons don't orbit the Sun.

      We should just call Pluto SOL-9. Earth is SOL-3.

    37. Re:Frozen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moons don't orbit the Sun.

      Every single moon in the solar system orbits our sun. Or did you think they get left behind as the planets orbit?

      We should just call Pluto SOL-9. Earth is SOL-3.

      You forgot Ceres. Pluto would have to be Sol-10, until we discover more "planets" and it gets reassigned to Sol-284.

    38. Re:Frozen by allston · · Score: 0

      Simply, Please go fuck yourself. Pluto is the first planet discovered by an American and so therefore shall always be a planet!

  2. I <3 Pluto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  3. Premature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is little point in commenting on this stuff for the next few days. Just enjoy. Pluto is getting very big in New Horizon's field of view. The book on Pluto will be rewritten every few hours now. Strange to comment on the atmosphere which we cannot see, when terra incognita lies before us.

    1. Re:Premature by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      It's a plot to sell higher quantities of "updated" textbooks. "Oh rats, my book only covers up to 3 days out. You have 2 days out, and that day is on the exam."

      By the way, isn't the probe to be going into "silent mode" soon? It lacks the ability to point instruments and its main antenna independently (as Voyager had). Thus, to aim its instruments it has to stop talking to Earth. There is supposed to be a "final contact" before closest approach where the probe in incommunicado for a few days, storing data in memory for later transmission.

      It's scary because if it hits debris around Pluto and dies, we won't get the close-up data. That's why they took so many long exposures of the vicinity around Pluto, to see if there were any lurking moonlets or rings.

  4. Flyby or Orbt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pop-Sy Media coverage of this mission is generally piss poor, so I'll just ask here. Is the probe going to flyby the Pluto system or will it be entering orbit?

    While I'm at it, what would be the additional Delta V cost of the latter anyway?

    1. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Flyby. New Horizons is the fastest object ever launched. It is traveling at such speed that Pluto will barely deflect its course.

    2. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by tomhath · · Score: 3, Informative

      A Delta V wouldn't have anywhere near the energy needed to slow it down enough for orbit. Remember that the rocket engine and fuel would be traveling at the same speed as the probe, that's a tremendous amount of kinetic energy.

    3. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by Wyzard · · Score: 2

      Delta-V isn't a rocket. (You might be thinking of Saturn V.) Delta-V is change in velocity: in this case, how much the spacecraft would have to slow down in order to enter orbit instead of just flying past.

    4. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by rasmusbr · · Score: 3, Informative

      The delta v relative to Pluto is 11 km/s, which is not a whole lot in and of itself. My understanding is that fuel boil-off during the 10 years of transit to Pluto makes it very difficult and expensive to bring along enough fuel for a retro burn to put a spacecraft into orbit around Pluto.

      It would have been pretty awesome to have an obiter that could zip around Pluto and Charon and do observations. Maybe next time.

    5. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The delta v relative to Pluto is 11 km/s, which is not a whole lot in and of itself.

      On the contrary, 11 km/s is huge! The Space Shuttle Main Engines, one of our most efficient rocket engines, has an Isp of 4.436 km/s. By the rocket equation this means that, to change velocity by 11 km/s using this engine, a spacecraft would need a ratio of wet mass to dry mass of exp(11/4.436) = 11.9. In other words, to stop the New Horizons probe at Pluto, we'd need to have sent along an extra 10.9 times its mass in fuel. And that's ignoring the mass of the engine and tankage, which makes things worse.

      Fuel boil-off, as you mentioned, is an additional problem: it means we couldn't use the liquid-hydrogen/liquid-oxygen propellant used by the SSMEs, but some more stable (and less efficient) propellant, which further increase the required fuel mass.

      By the way, doing a rough comparison: New Horizons was launched on an Atlas V 551, which has a capacity of 19t to LEO. To send the probe plus 10.9 times its mass in fuel would therefore take an equivalent capacity of ~11.9*19 = 226t to LEO. The Saturn V, the most powerful launcher ever made, had a capacity of 118t to LEO. So you'd need two Saturn V launches, rendesvousing in orbit, to get a spacecraft with enough fuel to fly to Pluto and stop there. (Probably 3-4 launches, when you consider the other problems described above.)

      Another option is to use an ion engine, which has an extremely high specific impulse, so it requires less fuel. But that has an additional problem: ion engines require lots of power, and solar panels are useless out at Pluto, so you need a big, heavy nuclear reactor.

    6. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the probe going to flyby the Pluto system or...

      Fly by. It's going to fly by.
      Flyby is a noun. Fly by is a verb.

    7. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by hackertourist · · Score: 2

      He meant either a Delta IV or an Atlas V, the heaviest rockets available in the US today.

    8. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by hackertourist · · Score: 2

      My bad; Tomhath was referring to either a Delta IV or an Atlas V and making two errors in the process, the OP was talking about delta-V as in speed change. Serves me right for answering before reading the complete thread.

    9. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it is fairly fast, but as your calculations show, a 500 kg orbiter traveling to Pluto in 10 years is not unthikable using chemical rockets and the current budget levels of NASA. The only parameter that makes it impossible is the cost of launching and assembling stuff in orbit.

      You would be able to do a mission like that within the current budgets if there was a 20x drop in cost per unit of weight to orbit. That is assuming that you can build a rocket stage that can start (and/or restart) after 10 years and can function in a cluster with other rocket stages. Also, you'd need to figure out a cheap and reliable way for those rocket stages to dock in low Earth orbit. But it's not unthinkable.

      If the delta v for a 10-year flight to Pluto was 100 km/s it would be unthinkable.

    10. Re:Flyby or Orbt? by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      There was some discussion of using what is eupemistically called "lithobraking" to put a probe down on, or more accurately in, Pluto's surface. Apparantly you really can make a probe that has a reasonable chance of still sending back useful science after hitting Pluto at 15 km/s or so.

  5. Not the fastest by sjbe · · Score: 3, Informative

    New Horizons is the fastest object ever launched.

    No it is not. Not even close to the fastest object we've ever launched. That honor goes to the Helios-A and Helios-B probes which traveled about 70km/s. Much faster than the 16km/s of New Horizons.

    1. Re:Not the fastest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Heliocentric velocities don't count. I should have said this:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Horizons

      New Horizons was launched on January 19, 2006, from Cape Canaveral, directly into an Earth-and-solar-escape trajectory with an Earth-relative speed of about 16.26 kilometers per second (58,536 km/h; 36,373 mph); it set the record for the highest launch speed of a human-made object from Earth.

  6. Still not the fastest by sjbe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    New Horizons was launched on January 19, 2006, from Cape Canaveral, directly into an Earth-and-solar-escape trajectory with an Earth-relative speed of about 16.26 kilometers per second (58,536 km/h; 36,373 mph); it set the record for the highest launch speed of a human-made object from Earth.

    Still probably not correct. I refer you to the manhole cover over the Pascal-B nuclear test. Basically we unintentionally (maybe?) made a nuclear powered potato canon. (which is AWESOME) The manhole cover was estimated to have been launched at 41,000mph - possibly being vaporized in the process.

    1. Re:Still not the fastest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can it be the fastest object launched if it becomes a non-object in the process? New Horizons was launched on the fastest rocket hot rod yet devised, basically an empty Atlas 551 with a kick stage.

    2. Re:Still not the fastest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The manhole cover was estimated to have been launched at 41,000mph - possibly being vaporized in the process.

      Your link states 41 mi/s which is equal to 147600 mi/h. And since it was never measured exactly, it couldn't set a record.

    3. Re:Still not the fastest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... possibly being vaporized in the process

      Ya think?

    4. Re:Still not the fastest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New Horizons is the fastest object ever launched.

      The original claim has nothing to do with specific technical records using specific protocols of measurements designed to set records and be repeated on other objects, therefore a counterclaim that does not use the same measurement procedure is appropriate. Also note: the Pascal-B cover estimated speed is the minimum it could have possibly gone to create the data that is available for it. The objective fact that the nuclear launched piece of steel could have gone far faster clearly makes the event even more awesome.

  7. For the anime fans - by Bookwyrm · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, the Gamilon advanced planet bomb base on Pluto is hidden with a concealment field, so it is unlikely the New Horizons probe will be able to provide targeting information.

    1. Re:For the anime fans - by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, we should be able to see the tunnels of the Bugger's forward operating base. For those of us that are Sci-fi fans.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  8. Doubting the color by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    color information obtained earlier in the mission from the Ralph instrument has been added

    Ralph has about 1/5 the angular resolution of the B&W camera so combining both images may give wrong results. I wouldn't be surprised if in reality Pluto had bright red and white patches instead of the uniform orange from the picture.

    1. Re:Doubting the color by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      If it had 1/50th the resolution, maybe. 1/5th isn't much of a difference. Downsample the B&W image to 1/5 and you'll still see some detail, and not just a one-colour blob.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Doubting the color by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Having said that, the colour was gathered at an earlier time, so may be even lower resolution.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  9. Heck, pre-planets: Comets! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since planets mostly formed out of the same stuff as comets did, why not call THEM "planets" too! Lets call EVERYTHING A planet, just so we don't have to stop calling Pluto a planet.

    Pluto isn't a planet. Coren you need to get over it. It's done. Stick a fork in it. It isn't a planet by IAU definition, and will, in the business not be called a planet.

    1. Re:Heck, pre-planets: Comets! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Since planets mostly formed out of the same stuff as comets did, why not call THEM "planets" too!"

      You are quite obtuse. Were those comets/asteroids so much big as to be in hydrostatic equilibrium? If yes, they were already planets and not comets/asteroids. If not, they were still comets/asteroids and not planets. What is so confusing to you? Suppose in 100 million years Mars is going to smash into Earth: would you stop calling them planets? Would you call them dwarf planets? That makes no sense...

  10. The definition is fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As can be shown by the efforts needed to take to make out there is a problem (namely, curtailing the definition into a single cherry picked claim). The definition is fine. There isn't a better one. NONE OF THE OTHER definitions did half as well (not mathematically proven statement) as the current one did.

    It isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more perfect than "Geophysical definition".

    Oh, to the other AC, may be you, the fact that people have a problem with it is irrelevant. They never knew pluto was a planet until discovered (and the mass expected was 10x as much as it actually had, so much for "discovered a planet": only 10% there!). If it had been called an asteroid then we'd not have the problem now.

    You DO know we have asteroids bigger than pluto, right?

    And in 30 years the kids won't have any problem not calling pluto a planet. Hell, millenials probably have no issue NOW.

    1. Re:The definition is fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Oh, to the other AC, may be you, the fact that people have a problem with it is irrelevant."

      The first one claiming that the definition must cater to the masses because of ramping pseudoscience was The Evil Atheist, and i disagreed. I don't like the current definition because it doesn't make sense to me.

      "They never knew pluto was a planet until discovered (and the mass expected was 10x as much as it actually had, so much for "discovered a planet": only 10% there!). If it had been called an asteroid then we'd not have the problem now."

      You should be reading more closely the definition of dwarf planet: there is no cutoff on mass or size. If Pluto had the mass of Mercury it most probably would still be considered a dwarf planet. If Mercury were to be in Jupiter L2 or L3 it would be considered a dwarf planet. That's how confusing it is. Ceres was initially called a planet, then an asteroid because it was apparently too small, yet when it was first imaged by Hubble it became clear that it's planet, and it was bound to be promoted. It is also terribly confusing because "dwarf planet" is not a subcategory of "planet". According to IAU you can be only one of those two, so they picked the least intuitive way possible to make their point.

      "You DO know we have asteroids bigger than pluto, right?"

      No, I have no knowledge of any such beast. Please provide more details. Anything bigger than Pluto is likely to be in hydrostatic equilibrium, so at least a dwarf planet, like Eris, or a likely dwarf planet candidate like some unnamed objects.

      "And in 30 years the kids won't have any problem not calling pluto a planet."

      I don't care about kids. I'd make every kid complaining about the Pluto demoting memorize all the solar system bodies greater or equal than Ceres, that would keep them quiet.

  11. We're #1! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The unassailable world speed champion is another US spacecraft, the Galileo Atmosphere Probe. It plunged into Jupiter's atmosphere at 47km/s.

  12. Lower bound by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Your link states 41 mi/s which is equal to 147600 mi/h. And since it was never measured exactly, it couldn't set a record.

    Typo. Forgot the 1 in front. And yes it CAN set a record because we can very clearly set a lower bound for its speed. Since it was only in the screen for one frame and we know how much distance it had to cover at minimum in the time between frames we know the lower bound of the speed with good certainty. Might be faster but it can still set a record because nothing has gone faster than its lower bound.

  13. Still slower by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The unassailable world speed champion is another US spacecraft, the Galileo Atmosphere Probe. It plunged into Jupiter's atmosphere at 47km/s.

    That's still slower than the manhole cover (66km/s) and the Helios probes (70km/s)

    1. Re:Still slower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How ridiculous.

  14. Yup. Dick waving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gotta get it shouted down, though, right guys?

  15. What benefit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is one of our very last RTG's we're throwing away. What benefit in the civilian sector can we expect for our tax dollars?

    1. Re:What benefit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What benefit could the civilian sector see from keeping a single RTG on Earth, especially when there are plenty of other RTGs still available on Earth using different fuels? The only thing special about about the Pu238 ones used on deep space missions is that they have a slightly higher power to mass ratio and a longer half-life.

  16. Pluto by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    Very, very cool.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.