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Massachusetts Examining Disability Access For Uber, Lyft

An anonymous reader writes: Uber and Lyft have been dealing with a host of legal and regulatory issues, and the Massachusetts attorney general's office is adding one more: disability access. No formal action has been taken, but the office has contacted the companies to see how they handle equal access. Uber says it often speaks with advocates about accessibility, and less than a week ago they introduced uberASSIST, which connects riders with drivers who are specifically trained to assist those with disabilities. Still, the inquiry seems to have been spurred by questions from disabilities rights groups, not to mention ongoing lawsuits. "[T]he National Federation of the Blind of California accused Uber in a lawsuit last year of discrimination by refusing to transport guide dogs. A San Francisco federal judge has said the case can proceed. ... In Texas, Jennifer McPhail sued Lyft last year, accusing the company of not having a wheelchair accessible vehicle operating in Austin."

155 comments

  1. a thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Uber drivers are truly independent contractors, do they have to abide by the ADA?

    1. Re:a thought by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      If Uber drivers are truly independent contractors, do they have to abide by the ADA?

      Maybe, but it certainly would seem to apply to Uber itself.

    2. Re:a thought by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      yes, they drive on public roads paid for by taxes

    3. Re:a thought by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Yes they are in business they have to abide by the ADA there are no exceptions.

      Brought to you by Big G

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    4. Re:a thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      taxes paid for my tax on gasoline (for the most part) - thus, more uber/lyft miles driven by people = more taxes paid...thus, perfect example.

    5. Re:a thought by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      mcdonalds's and other franchises are independent but they still have to abide by the ADA

    6. Re:a thought by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      That is NOT why the ADA exists.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    7. Re:a thought by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Most taxi drivers where i live (Phoenix) are independent contractors. Sort of like long-haul truckers.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  2. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by DMJC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes me me me me me and fuck the disabled, because the almighty dollar should rule everything. Uber/Lyft are examples of he worst of the free market system. Just bully your competition into having crap labour laws and screw anyone who falls outside of fit, high rate, low risk riders. Uber/Lyft are going to fire all their drivers as soon as driverless cars come in and they're trying to build monopoly empires right now. Americans are so gullible they'll fall for convenience for most at the expense of everyone else.

  3. BooHoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Deaf Dumb and Blind get all the breaks. Me, I just get free gin. By the bathtub full.

  4. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Right.

    And all the 4 door sedans that are used as taxis have a wheel chair lift and 20 sq ft of space to secure the rider.

    Most Taxis are not Handicapped friendly. They are just Grandma Cars that stink.

    This is nothing more than cronyism.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  5. Muslim drivers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they can and do refuse service dogs (against their religion) with no statuary legal repercussions

    https://www.google.com/search?... dogs

    1. Re: Muslim drivers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then there are drivers with dog allergies... Do you really want your driving sneezing while driving?

    2. Re:Muslim drivers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they can and do refuse service dogs (against their religion) with no statuary legal repercussions

      But can they refuse service in Massachusetts?

    3. Re:Muslim drivers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they can and do refuse service dogs (against their religion) with no statuary legal repercussions

      But can they refuse service in Massachusetts?

      I live in MA and yes, they do refuse, regardless of the laws. Muslim-owned bakeries also refuse to make wedding cakes for LGBT weddings, and Muslim-owned caterers won't cater LGBT events. Most Muslim-owned businesses also do not comply with ADA requirements.

      All this is completely ignored by TPTB. Because Muslims.

      Judging by recent history if one wants equal protection under the law in the US one has to either actually blow the right politicians or fly some airliners into skyscrapers in downtown Manhattan.

  6. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    >

    Most Taxis are not Handicapped friendly. .

    Most parking space are not handicapped spaces. You only need enough to serve. Taxi companies have handicap friendly vehicles that are dispatched to those customers, and they keep enough available to handle those requests. It would make no sense to outfit every vehicle, I am surprised you didn't think that through.

  7. So what is the answer? by hsmith · · Score: 2

    Deny access to everyone because Uber isn't ADA compliant?

    1. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Deny access to everyone because Uber isn't ADA compliant?

      They should apply the same answer they would with any other company not in compliance, unless you think Uber should get special treatment.

    2. Re:So what is the answer? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Troll

      Deny access to everyone because Uber isn't ADA compliant?

      There's a significant contingent of disabled people who believe precisely that. If they can't have it, nobody else should have it either. And if their demands put it out of business, then they're happy to have destroyed someone's livelihoods even if they never would have shopped with them to begin with.

      Making utilities and necessities accessible to the disabled is reasonable. Forcing everyone else to accommodate them is wrong. If we really gave a shit about the disabled we wouldn't build military aircraft which we never plan to use, etc. We'd spend government money to enable them, instead of forcing everyone else to do it. The fact is, the only things we really care about are 1) bombing brown people and 2) making the rich richer.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:So what is the answer? by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Making utilities and necessities accessible to the disabled is reasonable.

      So it would follow that when the disabled find it necessary to utilize a ride "sharing" service that it is reasonable for that service to be accessible to them. Glad we agree on this.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    4. Re:So what is the answer? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So it would follow that when the disabled find it necessary to utilize a ride "sharing" service that it is reasonable for that service to be accessible to them.

      Since a ride-sharing service is neither a utility nor a necessity, you're wrong as usual. If they had a monopoly on transportation, you'd have a valid point. You don't. As usual.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:So what is the answer? by Brulath · · Score: 2

      It probably depends. If you're wheelchair bound and are unable to move into a vehicle unassisted you're already utilising wheelchair taxis, not normal taxis, so it probably wouldn't apply in those situations. Refusing to have a guide dog in the car is problematic though, as they're permitted pretty much everywhere and are quite well trained. It's not unreasonable to require drivers to take a guide dog if a blind person hails a taxi, unless they're allergic, so why should ridesharing services be permitted to do so?

      In cases where it doesn't require much, if anything other than an attitude change, to support disabled people, it's more or less a no brainer. In other cases, if it should depend on the circumstances. If a person can't change the thing about them that's causing the issue (e.g. in this case, their disability) then requiring businesses to make reasonable changes to accommodate them is perfectly ethical. They're still human, and should be given the best chance to lead a normal life if they desire it.

    6. Re:So what is the answer? by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Since a ride-sharing service is neither a utility nor a necessity, you're wrong as usual.

      It's not a necessity? So that means they don't really need it. WTF are you talking about? What alternatives are there?

    7. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If uber, lyft, etc, didn't exist, what would they do? Oh, right, utilize the services mandated by the government that already has accommodations for them.

      Their handicap isn't OUR fault....

    8. Re:So what is the answer? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Since a ride-sharing service is neither a utility nor a necessity,

      Can we stop calling Uber a "ride sharing service" and just call it a taxi company?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many disabled people can't drive. They have to rely on the taxi system far more than non-disabled people. You don't want these people being forced to drive themselves by illegal taxi companies. Or do you prefer to pay significantly more in taxes for the government to independently provide disability only taxi service across the entire country? If they do that you'll get the normal taxi companies suing for unfair competition.

    10. Re:So what is the answer? by MisterSquid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Their handicap isn't OUR fault....

      Just because something is not our fault does not mean we cannot collectively make things better. You know, old-fashioned pre-21st century things like succor, empathy, and compassion.

      --
      blog
    11. Re:So what is the answer? by Shados · · Score: 1

      Can you hail a Uber as you see it go through the street by waving at it?

      No, you can't. Ride sharing service is not the right term for it, but neither is Taxi.

      Then you have the distinction between part timers using their own car to give rides every now (eg UberX) and then vs limousine service (eg: Uber Black).

      So how do you call UberX? Make up a name, it doesn't matter. But its definitely not a Taxi service. At best they should follow limousine rules, but they very well may be something else.

    12. Re:So what is the answer? by cob666 · · Score: 1

      Private clubs are exempt from ADA compliance, all Uber has to do is charge a one time 'Membership Fee' before you can use their service.

      User seems to only exist in places where there are already taxi services. Taxi service already have vehicles that service handicapped people. Why would a handicapped person insist on using a service that isn't equipped to accommodate them instead of just calling a cab that IS?

      This is like those lawyers that drive around small towns looking for businesses that aren't wheelchair accessible and then suing them.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    13. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure the membership trick would work. If it is available to the general public, it becomes quite murky.

      Maybe you'd like to be the one who chooses which companies must comply with certain regs, and which don't, but as a matter of public policy, it becomes very complicated once you start parsing regs based on those criteria. I think Uber is a great idea, but that doesn't really matter when it come to fairness.

      If you want to propose to do away with the regulations altogether, and let companies choose based on market demand, you'll need to come out and say it. That has nothing to do with Uber specifically, but it is one example you could cite. That is a legitimate position, and I'm sure the libertarian side would be fully behind you.

    14. Re:So what is the answer? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      That's how the law works. Blame legislators. They have but one tool, and wield it when they will.

      And the tool is force.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    15. Re:So what is the answer? by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 1

      The fact that handicapped people need food does not mean they don't need permission to rummage around in anyone's refrigerator and take what they want.

    16. Re: So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not every city allows for steet side hailing. That has nothing to do with being called a taxi.

    17. Re:So what is the answer? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Can you hail a Uber as you see it go through the street by waving at it?

      This strange techbro romantic notion that the Internet creates a magical world where there can be no rules.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re:So what is the answer? by Ostrich25 · · Score: 1

      Uber takes service animals.

    19. Re:So what is the answer? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      If it is available to the general public, it becomes quite murky.

      But that's the whole point. It's not available to the general public if you must pay a fee and register as a member.

      Unless you want to redefine words and terms specifically for Uber/Lyft?

      Which is even more wrong and corrupt.

      Uber/Lyft and similar services are a threat to the comfortable little crony relationship between taxi companies and politicians, and a threat to government's desire to regulate, monitor, and control every aspect of society and all social interactions.

      This is just another example of the fascist oligarchy at work protecting itself and it's cronies.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    20. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      But that's the whole point. It's not available to the general public if you must pay a fee and register as a member.

      I think you are making quite an assumption that a large company can skirt regulations with such a trick. You may want to see what other bounds there are on private club qualification besides just charging a member fee, and also what types of business can operate as a club and be exempt from certain (but not all) regulations. For example, a private club cannot violate fire codes.

      I'm sure the types of tricks you are coming up with have all been tried before in many different ways.

    21. Re:So what is the answer? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      I think you are making quite an assumption that a large company can skirt regulations with such a trick.

      That's the entire point. It would cease to be a company and become a private club.

      Again, you would have to redefine words and terms to get around existing laws in order to attack UberClub/LyftClub.

      Which you seem to be OK with.

      At least, until it affects something negatively that you specifically care about.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    22. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter if I am ok with it or not. The point is, there is simply no freaking way your trick will work. You might believe it should, you might want it to, I might want it to, but you simply don't understand it isn't so simple.

      Costco is a membership club, yet they must adhere to accessibility regulations. You don't see big companies skirting regulations by becoming 'clubs'. There is a reason for that.

    23. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Can you hail a Uber as you see it go through the street by waving at it?

      No, you can't. Ride sharing service is not the right term for it, but neither is Taxi.

      It is more like a Taxi service than anything else. You can schedule rides with Taxis or Uber. Just because Taxis provide additional services doesn't put the services Uber provides in a different category. It is selling rides. Call them a 'ride selling' company, and Taxis would also be considered that as well. The definition of a Taxi service is definitely not "a service you can hail on the streetside".

    24. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can you use the 'uber app' to hail a "ride share" (taxi) similar to how you can call a taxi company?

      If they are not going to the same place and carpooling it is not a 'ride share', it is an unlicensed taxi service. Uber drivers to where you want to go because you paid them, just like a taxi.

      The only difference is the input mechanism (hail on the street, call a taxi vs using an "app").

    25. Re:So what is the answer? by Shados · · Score: 1

      The definition of a Taxi service is definitely not "a service you can hail on the streetside".

      That is basically the only significant difference between a taxi and a limo service. You need a medallion to be able to pick up random strangers hailing you. You do not to pick up someone who has registered ahead of time and called you up. While you can call a taxi on the phone ahead of time, you can also call up a chinese limo service in NYC that is basically better in every way (you can also pick one up at designated, static locations). You, however, cannot hail one in the street. Because they are not a taxi service.

      There are other small differences, but that is the only relevant one here. You do not need to be a registered taxi to get hired as a driver ahead of time by someone on the phone. Cities and lobbies are getting their panties in the bunch because phone apps made ahead of time reservation even more convenient than waving on the street. They did not expect that to happen when the original rules were put in place.

    26. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually that is great idea, make specialized possibly goverment owned company for transport, stores and anything else specialized for 1% of people that need special acomodations, its waste of resources to have every taxi/limousine/bus have accomodations for people with special needs (i heard it can increase cost of wheicle up to 100%) better have 1% of taxis/buses/stores/services specialized for them, and if they cant work financially (are loosing money) any looses should be paid back by goverment trough medical/hospital system (forgot english word) its stupid wasting money making 100% of world capable of handling people with special needs instead of just 1%

    27. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      forcing every independent contractor working for Uber to equip there car for handicap accessibility is prohibitively expensive. The proper solution would be for Uber to do its thing, and the government can pay for its own travel service for the handicapped that for whatever reason can't ride in a normal car.

    28. Re:So what is the answer? by CptPicard · · Score: 1

      Guess what, an even better idea would be to put them into these huge institutions where everything could be centralized so there is not even a need for transporting them anywhere...

      And now that the cost center is well defined, the taxpayer can have complete control over the finances!

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
    29. Re:So what is the answer? by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      do they give them back, or do they keep them?

    30. Re: So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know how stupid it makes you look when you're suggesting it's stupid for Uber to be expected to handle disabled when the government forces taxi firms to? Why should taxis have to if Uber doesn't, what happens when taxis are largely replaced by Uber etc. Does it suddenly become OK for government to 'interefere' then.

    31. Re:So what is the answer? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter if I am ok with it or not. The point is, there is simply no freaking way your trick will work. You might believe it should, you might want it to, I might want it to, but you simply don't understand it isn't so simple.

      It probably won't work, I agree. I was not aware that operating under the existing laws governing private clubs was a "trick". I guess operating within long-established laws is considered a "trick" when it thwarts the Progressive government political agenda. The US government routinely ignores the Rule of Law and does whatever it damned well pleases regardless of laws or the US Constitution that contradict it's position.

      The US has for all intents & purposes become the world's largest "banana republic" where the law is whatever those in power say it is on any particular day which suits their current agenda. I guess that's fine if you like living in a banana republic. I do not.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    32. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I was not passing judgement on what is 'fine' or whatever. I was not endorsing nor defending Uber. I was simply analyzing the situation as it is today, and along the way making some devil's advocate points to some that seem to oversimplify the situation.

      And, by the way, the Uber issue is not only a US issue, just check out what happened in France a few weeks ago with the taxi drivers.

      But hey, never is a chance to take a shot at the US, right? I sure whatever country you live in is much better in every way.

    33. Re:So what is the answer? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      But hey, never is a chance to take a shot at the US, right? I sure whatever country you live in is much better in every way.

      I am a US citizen.

      I do not allow nationalistic pride to blind me to reality. The US is well on the way to being a full-blown authoritarian fascist oligarchy.

      And, by the way, the Uber issue is not only a US issue, just check out what happened in France a few weeks ago with the taxi drivers.

      I am aware. It's no surprise that entrenched interests try to protect their government-enforced monopoly and that the government works to protect it's partners in cronyism. That's pretty much what is happening here in the US regarding Uber/Lyft, nor will it be a surprise when other businesses who depend on government to protect their markets and business models from innovation and competition from newcomers use their partners in government to destroy those who threaten their incestuous relationship.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    34. Re:So what is the answer? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I see you can't discuss the particulars of a topic like this without dragging in your political agenda. And without getting angry at others who are not.

      Spare me your lectures. You don't do a very good job of making your points, some of which I actually think may be somewhat valid, because you engulf them in angry generalizations and doomsaying. Basically, you come across as they guy with a "The end is near" sign.

      I'm sorry to day that ultimately, Uber will disappoint you, as they care nothing about your political point of view, they are out to make as much money as quickly as they possibly can, and nothing else.

    35. Re:So what is the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If anybody can come in off the street, pay the fee, and become a member, it isn't a private club. I'm very confident that this has been tried before unsuccessfully.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    36. Re:So what is the answer? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      If anybody can come in off the street, pay the fee, and become a member, it isn't a private club.

      What, then, are the prerequisites for being a private club, if filling out an application and paying a membership fee are insufficient? That's pretty much all it takes to join private clubs such as the Elks Lodge and similar clubs who operate private bars. Do they no longer qualify, and has anybody informed them of the change in their status?

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    37. Re:So what is the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      What do the Elks do, specifically? Do they act like a business? I don't know what the legal requirements are. What I am sure of is that, if you want to run a business, and not comply with the laws that restrict businesses and not clubs, and so you try to be a private club with indiscriminate membership, the courts will nail you.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    38. Re:So what is the answer? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      What do the Elks do, specifically?

      Sell food and alcohol and are de facto bars/restaurants/nightclubs, for one set of examples, many of which operate at hours when a normal bar is forbidden to operate. Because they are private clubs, not public businesses.

      The only real difference is in whose ox is being gored. In this case with Uber/Lyft it is the incestuous relationship between the taxi service industry and the government.

      Politicians get quite testy when someone gets between them and their graft & corruption. Despite all the hand-wringing and fake concern they espouse, that is the core of the issue.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    39. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both of you are looking at the wrong thing. A club isn't defined by what it "does". It's about why the club exists. From wiki, a club is an organization that exists for promote a common interest or goal. Sometimes to promote that goal, a club may do business-like things, like sell drinks and run nightclubs. But those activities are done to promote some goal.

      So the Elks can qualify because their claimed reason for existence is like many college fraternities: community, brotherhood, and that all jazz. They justify what they do as helping them pursue their goal the same way college fraternities justify their parties. Selling drinks and food and having venues for them to hang out helps people socialize.

      It'd be much harder for Uber or Lyft to claim to be a club. By Uber and its defenders' own narrative, people join Uber because they like the tech and service. It's a product and/or service that people are paying money for, not to support some noble cause for P2P or ride sharing or whatever. Uber themselves may be about that, but that's not what people are joining and paying money for.

      Think of it this way: if some local school chess club holds a bake sale, I'm giving them money because I support their chess-related activities, not so much that I think their muffin is good compared to other clubs or for profit bakeries.

      But if I'm paying Uber to get a ride, and this is told to us many times by Uber's defenders, it is because I like the service Uber provides compared to the competition, the taxi companies (who are not clubs)

    40. Re:So what is the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm not familiar with the law, but Uber is pretty obviously a business, and judges are not going to be kind to people who try to misrepresent a business. It isn't a matter of whose ox is being gored, it's a matter of judges not being completely stupid. They're on to obvious attempts to avoid the law.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  8. Re:Why should everyone be forced to pay the cost? by siddesu · · Score: 1

    Not every disabled person is born that way. Sometimes people receive injuries later in life so that many more don't. Should we throw those people to the wolves as well?

  9. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by sycodon · · Score: 1

    You mean like UberASSIST?

    But the Government won't let that prevent them from shutting them down. Especially MA Government which is the closet thing the the USSR you will find in the US.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  10. Another transparent attempt... by Karmashock · · Score: 0

    ... to protect entrenched special interests from competition/audit/legal action/defunding/etc... using "health", "safety", and/or "the children" as the reason monopolies, cronycapitalism, campaign donors, and other shill like behavior has to be protected from... literally anything that would clean house.

    Name anything broken in government or the economy and I shit you not... every last bit of it is armored in babies.

    Baby armor.
    https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfro...

    And why does this work? Because voters/readers are lazy and don't look past the surface. They just see the baby armor and the guy taking shots at it. they don't look closely enough to see the babies are mostly plastic, and there is some cynical shit giggle in the middle of the babies that have been tied to his body while he's getting away with pretty much whatever he wants because after all... baby armor.

    I'd cite specific issues outside of the fucking taxi companies but then I'd endure endless comments from fuckwits that don't realize they're enabling systemic corruption/dysfunction because... baby armor.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  11. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by bloodhawk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most parking space are not handicapped spaces. You only need enough to serve.

    If this is a service that is needed by people, then it should be provided by government, and not forced upon private enterprises. Towns and cities themselves should operate transport for the disabled. Government should also foot the bill for wheelchair access and the like. I'm not against accessibility, just against forcing business owners to pay for it in cases other than necessities.

    The government DOES provide it. They do so through legislation that requires hire car businesses to have a certain percentage of vehicles on the roads at all times that are accessible, the cost is then passed on through higher average fees across all vehicles. In essence this is one of the taxi industries complaints (and a justified one at that), Uber by ignoring the regulations avoids costs that legitimate businesses pay and hence can undercut the market.

  12. This is not about people with disabilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Does anybody really think the state of Massachusetts actually gives a flying fuck about disabled access to Uber and Lyft? This is about shutting down the competition and maintaining the giant fees associated with "legitimate" taxi services. All presented in a way of protecting the poor helpless disabled, because what kind of monster would be against helping people who really need it?

    TLDR: protect profits while maintaining political image

    1. Re:This is not about people with disabilities by FranTaylor · · Score: 4, Informative

      Does anybody really think the state of Massachusetts actually gives a flying fuck about disabled access to Uber and Lyft?

      Yes, I do. Massachusetts is very aggressive about disabled access. They put wheelchair access on EVER SINGLE BUS in the MBTA fleet. I see disabled people on the bus ALL THE TIME. The state mandates handicapped parking spaces. I see disabled people using these parking spaces ALL THE TIME.

      All presented in a way of protecting the poor helpless disabled

      Most of these disabled people use public transportation to COMMUTE TO THEIR JOBS. With public transportation they are NOT poor and helpless, they are active contributing members of the community. Take away public transportation and THEN they become useless.

    2. Re:This is not about people with disabilities by Rockoon · · Score: 1, Troll

      Why are you blathering on about public transport when the discussion is about private business?

      Oh, I get it. You think that there shouldnt be any private business. You wont admit it of course, but anyone that takes a look at your posting history will see that its true. You do not believe in free enterprise, private property rights, nor the liberty of ordinary people.

      You only assign liberty to government. Fuck off.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    3. Re:This is not about people with disabilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does every Taxi in Boston have a ramp?

  13. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Rhywden · · Score: 2

    Right. And then people like you begin to cry when the government raises taxes to pay for stuff like this.

  14. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

    Oh, you mean slavery.

    nobody is forcing anybody to be in business

    if you want to do business, you play by the rules

  15. Re:Why should everyone be forced to pay the cost? by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

    No, if our society wants to preserve those people, then our society should pay the costs, and not people who are just trying to operate a business.

    Our society IS paying the costs. We ARE paying more to accomodate these people.

  16. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by mjm1231 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If this is a service that is needed by people, then it should be provided by government...

    Aren't all services "a service that is needed by people"?

    --
    Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
  17. Disabled by fluffernutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have to say, I'm really shocked about insensivity towards the disabled seen in this thread. This further entrenches my opinion that the people defending Uber care nothing for others, and do nothing to appreciate the situation that others find themselves in. We don't have much of a society if we turn our backs on the weakest among us.

    You are not the center of the frigging universe, as difficult as that may be for some of you to comprehend.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Disabled by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      I have to say, I'm really shocked about insensivity towards the disabled seen in this thread. This further entrenches my opinion that the people defending Uber care nothing for others, and do nothing to appreciate the situation that others find themselves in. We don't have much of a society if we turn our backs on the weakest among us.

      "Turning our backs on the weakest among us" is bullet point #2 on the technobro-libertarian agenda, didn't you know that?

      "Libertarianism...IT'S A COOKBOOK!"

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Disabled by Shados · · Score: 2

      Not the disabled in themselves, but the Taxi vs Uber (and other similar services) shows what happens once you put regulation over regulation over regulation on a system. It eventually becomes so poor, that unless you have the resources and influence of New York City, the system eventually becomes useless and expensive to the point it may as well stop existing.

      Taxis were a luxury people would use to go to the airport if they couldn't find someone to drop them off, or if they were stranded drunk on a populated corner, and avoided at all cost any other time.

      The disability acts in many countries have created situations of "if the disabled cannot have it, no one can", like ebooks in schools, and this.

      It really sucks when shit happens, but is it really a better idea to make everyone lose out? If its we as a society needs to take better care of the weak, then its society (the government, taxes, municipalities) that should be responsible for doing it...not private entities that are trying to create new ways of doing things (beyond what they pay in taxes). You can give incentives to nudge them, sure...but don't go trying to kill services that are genuinely helping some people live a better life just because they're not helping EVERYONE live a better life.

      Contrary to popular belief, your life isn't perfect the moment you're not a black female blind paraplegic.

    3. Re:Disabled by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If Taxi's were completely a luxury then they wouldn't have been regulated in the first place. They are a service that are part of a community.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:Disabled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the center, but neither are those with disabilities, either. What did they do before Uber/Lyft came along? They can keep doing the same thing.

    5. Re:Disabled by antdude · · Score: 1

      It's not just /. people. It's MANY humans around the world. Humans suck. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    6. Re:Disabled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > This further entrenches my opinion that the people defending Uber care nothing for others

      "FUCK YOU, GOT MINE!"

      It's the American motto.

    7. Re:Disabled by nbauman · · Score: 1

      The disability acts in many countries have created situations of "if the disabled cannot have it, no one can", like ebooks in schools, and this.

      Point of fact: Disability laws in the U.S. require a reasonable accommodation.

      If a company can put braille numbers on elevator buttons for essentially no additional cost, they have to do it.

      If a landlord has a 6-story walkup building, he doesn't have to install an elevator.

    8. Re:Disabled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? reasonable?

      Have you seen the people spatulas every single fricking hotel had to install that 99.9% have never seen use.

      I call bull capital S with a hit.

      I had a hotel room last night where the shower is designed for, I dunno, nobody. At five foot nine I was way too tall for the showerhead. I find this unreasonable as well.

    9. Re:Disabled by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      I have a really bad disability known as "being born to poor parents". You can look at the research if you doubt the severity of this disability. Taxis are not compatible with my disability.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    10. Re:Disabled by Shados · · Score: 1

      Yes, the law asks for that. In practice, once every single group asks for a "reasonable" accommodation, sometimes pushing the limit of the definition (but even if it wasnt), it fucking adds up. A lot.

    11. Re:Disabled by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Yes, the law asks for that. In practice, once every single group asks for a "reasonable" accommodation, sometimes pushing the limit of the definition (but even if it wasnt), it fucking adds up. A lot.

      Actually, it doesn't cost a lot.

      Myth: Providing accommodations for people with disabilities is expensive.

      Fact: The majority of workers with disabilities do not need accommodations to perform their jobs, and for those who do, the cost is usually minimal. According to the Job Accommodation Network (JAN), a service from the U.S. Department of Labor's Office of Disability Employment Policy, 57% of accommodations cost absolutely nothing to make, while the rest typically cost only $500. Moreover, tax incentives are available to help employers cover the costs of accommodations, as well as modifications required to make their businesses accessible to persons with disabilities.
      http://www.dol.gov/odep/pubs/f...

    12. Re:Disabled by Locando · · Score: 1

      Or they can use Uber/Lyft, because we have laws that say that if you get to have a business and make profits, you don't get to cherry-pick as to who you provide service to, even if you have to spend some money to do so.

      Or, using your logic, we can just as easily deny Uber and Lyft the right to do business. Users of said services are not the center of the universe. What did they do before Uber/Lyft came along? They can keep doing the same thing.

    13. Re:Disabled by CptPicard · · Score: 1

      The argument that "business" should not have to do anything with disabled people as they create costs is particularly concerning. It means exclusion from most of the workings of the world as "business" is what is supposed to run the world. Another problem is the rather nasty attitudes about placing blame and the hyperbole about wanting to deny others their ability. It's the sort of paranoia out of Ayn Rand really, and the most aggressive people might actually be able to justify things I'd rather not contemplate, if they come to the conclusion that we're living "undeserved" lives.

      It is quite a feat that it's nearly enough to radicalize me, and I'm a guy who is mostly interested in things "working" in general, and am even amenable to arguments that SOMETIMES it MIGHT be true that some of the complaints of the other side may have merit, and that not quite everything is necessary. But then again, I already give up on a lot of things, even though they may not understand it.

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  18. Bias... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ....Handicapped people want to be considered equals....except when it comes to access. Parking spots at the front....ramps everywhere...more big bathroom stalls...

    Some of those I get (ramps). Some I don't (parking at the front).

    However, if they want a service that caters to them, perhaps one of them should start Uberhandi. Or Handilyft. And give rides only to handicapped people.

    If I have a handicapped friend, and I invite them to go somewhere with me, they better be able to utilize my vehicle or arrange their own. It's not my responsibilty to accommodate them. Why should the rest of the world give in to everything?

    1. Re:Bias... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      If I have a handicapped friend, and I invite them to go somewhere with me, they better be able to utilize my vehicle or arrange their own.

      because its really all about you

    2. Re:Bias... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [quote]If I have a handicapped friend, and I invite them to go somewhere with me, they better be able to utilize my vehicle or arrange their own. It's not my responsibilty to accommodate them. Why should the rest of the world give in to everything?[/quote]Don't worry, you won't have that friend for long. Though, I don't think you actually were their friend in the first place.

      [quote]Some of those I get (ramps). Some I don't (parking at the front).[/quote]So you agree that many of these people have trouble walking then don't understand that walking across a large parking lot is difficult? Even harder if you have to carry or push something you just bought at a store? Also, maybe you should look at those handicapped spots again. Many are larger to allow for wheelchairs to be wheeled up along side the car and for those automatic lift things. You can't do that with normal parking spots. Do you really want your car scratched up because someone needed to squeeze a wheelchair past it? That's what you're arguing for. If the handicapped can walk across the parking lot why are you so lazy that you want the tiny chance of parking in the first few parking spots instead of also walking across the lot?

    3. Re:Bias... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      because its really all about you

      Looking at your posting history, we see that for you its all about government. You want the government into everything. You dont even believe in private property rights.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re:Bias... by Xenx · · Score: 1

      Looking at your posting history in this thread, you can't actually hold a real argument and just try to vainly invalidate everyone else. So get over yourself and grow up.

    5. Re:Bias... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ....Handicapped people want to be considered equals....except when it comes to access. Parking spots at the front....ramps everywhere...more big bathroom stalls...

      People want equal opportunities. For handicapped people that does require special arrangements and even then it's not fully possible. The reason most people agree with that is compassion but then there are those who lack compassion and only begrudgingly agree with it simply out of fear that they might be in a similarly disadvantaged situation some day and then there are idiots who think like you do.

    6. Re:Bias... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Some people recognize the benefit of having the government involved in regulating certain markets. Usually because they have a world view that is bigger then themselves, and can appreciate how regulation often helps people, if not being directly helped themselves. Lack of regulation is the true way to invite corruption. Unless you want to be living in a society more like they have in the lesser governed nations of Africa.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    7. Re:Bias... by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 1

      Strange that you use this as a rationale for handicapped parking places, which by definition are not equal-opportunity; they totally prohibit use by the non-handicapped. A shopping center near me does not get my business because they made all their few tree-shaded parking spots handicapped spots (though these are not nearer the stores). Why? I asked, and was told it was so their cars wouldn't get hot inside. Well, we can't have handicapped people's cars get hot just like everyone else's cars do, right? Even if it means the spots stay empty.

    8. Re:Bias... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      A handicapped parking spot allows the disabled person to use the business, a regular parking spot allows you to use a business. How is this not equal opportunity?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    9. Re:Bias... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you envy the handicapped so much I've got good news for you: There are plenty of ways for you to become wheelchair-bound if that's what you want.

    10. Re:Bias... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure about you, but whenever i go to the mall i dont even bother trying to find a 'close' spot as you know they are all handicap spots.

      While walking from the spot i did find, i cant help but notice all the empty spots that i cant park in unless i want a $255 fine.
      Most of the spots are first-come first-serve, except the handicapped spots, so equal but not equal?

      "A handicapped parking spot allows the disabled person to use the business, a regular parking spot allows you to use a business"

      How does a regular spot prevent a handicapped from parking it in? Do they get a $255 fine for parking in a non-handicapped spot?

    11. Re:Bias... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Some people recognize the benefit of having the government involved in regulating certain markets.

      Yeah but this guy in particular wants the government to regulate every market, completely.

      Dont make excuses for him. Don't try to downplay it. His belief system is based on the notion that the government rules and fuck individualism.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    12. Re:Bias... by Locando · · Score: 1

      His belief system is based on the notion that the government rules and fuck individualism.

      If you have to stoop to telling people that their belief system is some absurd caricature of the politics you disagree with, most people will usually interpret that to mean that you don't know how to form a coherent argument. There are lots of free-market cases against government regulation. Why don't you go learn about them before you continue commenting about politics?

    13. Re:Bias... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      You want the government into everything. You dont even believe in private property rights.

      You take the time to write something like that and yet you don't believe in correct punctuation.

      I do think it's funny that you infer that from what I say.

    14. Re:Bias... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      How is it that you don't get any cognitive dissonance by at the same time believing in private property rights and living on a stolen property?

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    15. Re:Bias... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does a regular spot prevent a handicapped from parking it in? Do they get a $255 fine for parking in a non-handicapped spot?

      Nothing prevents them and you know very well that they don't get a fine. But I think that understanding that is the limit of your intellectual capacity. Hence the need to make you think more: What is the purpose of parking? Usually not just to park and sit there but to also visit something nearby. The handicapped might not - due to them having difficulties moving that you don't have - be able to do that (in this case use the business) from other parking spots or only do so with substantial difficulty. If everyone could park in handicap spots, they would have to wait much, much longer than non-handicapped visitors to find any place to park from which they could do what non-handicapped people can do from non-handicap parking spots.

      All that aside, do you have no fucking compassion? I'm pretty sure that you don't consider the handicapped to have a better quality of life than you do simply because they can park closer. That's one of the few things we can make better in their lives. If you really considered their lives better than yours, you'd take the necessary steps to become handicapped but you don't.

  19. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    yeah by that argument the government should sell food and build houses

  20. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Jiro · · Score: 1

    That's because when the government forces the cost on private businesses, that hides the source of the increased costs. When the government actually has to raise taxes to pay for it, people can figure out that it's too expensive. If the company raises its prices because of government mandates, people just say "greedy companies" rather than blaming the government. Making the government pay for these things directly is an important part of having checks and balances on the government because people notice taxes.

    In other words, "if you make the government pay for it, people will complain about raising taxes" is a feature, not a bug. That's the point--the government should make it obvious that it is taking the money, so the public can decide whether it's really worth it. And sometimes they won't.

  21. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the Boston area, Massachusetts also has a fleet of cab-sized and small-bus sized vehicles that it uses to transport disabled and elderly persons (The Ride) which seems to be directly competing with disablity-accomodating taxi services already.

  22. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, but when you call a cab, you call a company that provides the cab. In their whole fleet, they have a few capable cars. Uber on the other hand, has a lot of "contractors". Unless they have a few drivers that cater to that specific side of the market, they're going to fail this little test. Badly.

  23. Re:Why should everyone be forced to pay the cost? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    No, if our society wants to preserve those people

    "If"?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  24. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by MisterSquid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In other words, "if you make the government pay for it, people will complain about raising taxes" is a feature, not a bug. That's the point--the government should make it obvious that it is taking the money, so the public can decide whether it's really worth it. And sometimes they won't.

    The likely outcome of leaving a mostly able-bodied populace to decide whether providing transportation to the disabled is "worth it" is precisely why such matters are and should be handled by the government which, ostensibly, promotes the common good.

    --
    blog
  25. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

    You mean like UberASSIST?

    Yes, if Uber assist is making cars available for those that need them, that is, there is enough of them to serve that market adequately, then that would bring them in to compliance. But I sense that UberASSIST availability is severely limited, hence the complaints.

  26. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    If this is a service that is needed by people, then it should be provided by government, and not forced upon private enterprises. Towns and cities themselves should operate transport for the disabled. Government should also foot the bill for wheelchair access and the like. I'm not against accessibility, just against forcing business owners to pay for it in cases other than necessities.

    Have you ever complained about this before, or did this just become an issue for you now that it affects your beloved Uber? Its been common practice for a very long time.

  27. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    "If this is a service that is needed by people, then it should be provided by government"

    You do know this is about Uber operating in Massachusetts, right?

    It's popular to think "it should be provided by government", and wrong. Indeed, one of the most damaging changes in our nation is this concept that the 'government' should be providing.

    By this example, the 'government' should:

    - Operate supermarkets and other stores that sell food.
    - Build and manage housing of all kinds.
    - Produce and distribute clothing for all.

    Uber should be left alone on this if they disclaim availability of transportation for those who require significant accommodations. The alternatives are readily available, and cost is not a criteria.

    The ADA has been used to punish businesses enough. Time to at least once challenge the government expansion of control. At least in this instance..

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  28. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    "Most parking space are not handicapped spaces. You only need enough to serve."

    Actually, you only need enough to satisfy the requirements of the law. Whether that is enough to serve the need is not even the point.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  29. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by rickb928 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    No.

    If you drive a car in the U.S., you probably need to have auto insurance. You avoid insurance by not driving a car. You avoid driving a car by living and working where alternative transport is available. Yes, this means most of North Dakota is not a place to try and go without a car, while Manhattan or inner city Boston is a great place to go without a car, though Boston will challenge you with more hills and snow.

    If you lived in America more than about 6 years ago, you could go without health insurance, paying as you go for care if needed. I didn't see a doctor or need any care for more than 7 years at a time twice in my life, punctuated by a broken leg (soccer) and shoulder pain (occupational), during which time I had employer subsidized insurance for only a few years. The broken leg I paid for. Now in America you 'need' health insurance, because the government has decided you do. Lots of people disagree.

    Need. You may be using that word incorrectly.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  30. Re:Why should everyone be forced to pay the cost? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    Government pays for nothing. Taxpayers pay for everything.

    There you go again...

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  31. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Logic alone cannot determine how much private misfortune should be offset at public expense. That's why these conversations drift toward ideological cant. But the suggestion that the costs should be transparent (e.g., funded by explicit government subsidy) has merit.

  32. Sadly too common. by DerekLyons · · Score: 0

    This further entrenches my opinion that the people defending Uber care nothing for others, and do nothing to appreciate the situation that others find themselves in.

    Sadly, it don't think it's as much about people defending Uber (though Slashdot is populated with the self absorbed and self centered) as much as it Slashdot's demographic slants heavily towards ignorant self entitled assholes. (Read any article on diversity or women in tech, etc... for existence proof.)

  33. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right. Why should Uber or Lyft be forced to provide services for the undesireables? Blacks, gays, Hispanics and the handicapped should start their own illegally operating taxi company if they want to get rides.

  34. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    right - so have some handicapped person start up a service specifically for handicapped people.

  35. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The government does both of those things.

  36. Uber is Sanderson Farms for Taxis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I reference for your viewing pleasure the show "Last Week Tonight" with John Oliver whose expose on the practice of chicken farming is enlightening and pertinent to this conversation. Uber's only innovation is a scheduling application for taxis. The rest of the business model is "hiring" a bunch of "contractors" to be unregulated taxi drivers in violation of most local laws and regulations while collecting fees for taxi rides that Uber doesn't actually deliver - but are delivered by a bunch of rubes who have been convinced that if they take their family sedan and act like a taxi driver they'll make a lot of money. Push all of the things that cost money onto the "cab driver" and keep all of the things that make money for Uber. Just like the big chicken companies. As time progresses, the requirements on those "cab drivers" will increase and their costs will go up while Uber will continue to make their nice piece of the pie regardless of the costs on the "cab driver." There will be a turn over that comes into existence - much like the one that exists for Amway Distributors wherein a few people do well enough to encourage more suckers to sign up and keep Uber making money while they put themselves out of a car and violate the local laws. Uber is a nasty business that has wrapped itself in the banner of innovation while practicing the worst of capitalism an claiming to be an innovative underdog.

  37. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the USSR has a history of electing Republican leadership? You know, the majority of the past 26 or so MA governors have all been Republicans.

    Shit, recently, a bill requiring companies to provide earned sick leave passed a popular vote without much of a majority.

    This state isn't some crazy liberal bastion or socialist/communist republic that people think it is. So get the fuck out with your small-minded jabs about things you know little to nothing about.

  38. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Rhywden · · Score: 1

    Oh, sure. Because when we create yet another government agency, that will be sooo much cheaper.

    I could agree on giving them tax breaks or something if they buy disabled-fit cars due to regulations.

    But if the infrastructure already exists and only needs to be added upon, why create yet another totally unneeded agency? Don't forget, the government wouldn't just have to buy such cars. They'd also need drivers, they'd need callcenter agents, dispatchers, managers, IT,...

  39. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by nbauman · · Score: 1

    Right.

    And all the 4 door sedans that are used as taxis have a wheel chair lift and 20 sq ft of space to secure the rider.

    Most Taxis are not Handicapped friendly. They are just Grandma Cars that stink.

    This is nothing more than cronyism.

    I live in New York City. I have neighbors who are in their 80s and 90s, and I occasionally help them to get to medical appointments. We take a cab. One guy uses a 4-wheel walker. We hail a cab on the street, the cab pulls up to the curb, we put the walker in the trunk, and get into the cab. No problem. People who use wheelchairs do the same thing.

    There are some mini-cabs, which aren't allowed in New York City, which are difficult for handicapped users. I was at the physical therapy department of a hospital, and they had an automobile frame set up to help people with broken legs, arthritis and stuff learn how to get into a car. If the car doesn't have enough leg room, they might not be able to sit in it.

  40. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then let the government buy shuttles and deal with the problem directly.

  41. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by nbauman · · Score: 0

    Right. And then people like you begin to cry when the government raises taxes to pay for stuff like this.

    I just wrote the IRS a check for $4,500. In a strange way, I was glad to pay it. I compared what I was paying to the government with what I was getting from the government, and it was a great deal.

    I'd rather pay more in taxes to have the government provide the services I need.

    I sent my niece $4,000 to help her pay for college. When Bernie Sanders went to Brooklyn College, it was free (in return for our taxes).

    I pay over $400 a month for health insurance. In Canada it would be free (in return for our taxes).

    In a well-run country http://www.sanders.senate.gov/... , taxes, in exchange for government services, are the best deal you can get.

    In the U.S., unfortunately, the Republicans and centerist Democrats come into office, and say, "Hey, here's all this money in the government treasury. Let's loot it and pass it out to our corporate campaign contributors." http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07... http://www.propublica.org/arti...

    Then they say, "Government can't do anything. Let's cut taxes."

  42. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Rhywden · · Score: 1

    So, you want to the government to establish a taxi service when there already are several existing. Good to know.

  43. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you don't believe in the market place providing such services for those that truly need it?

    Great plan, until you're hit by an Uber car!

  44. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're actually liars and hypocrites:
    If government starts their own taxi services, one that will undercut everyone else, namely "private enterprise", they will complain about that and shoot that down too.

    We're seeing this in TV-space right now. Just too bad smart customers moved over to TCP/IP many years ago.

  45. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by jbengt · · Score: 1

    If this is a service that is needed by people, then it should be provided by government, and not forced upon private enterprises. Towns and cities themselves should operate transport for the disabled

    Towns and cities, those that have public transportation, already have accessible transport for the disabled. Why should the private companies that serve the public be allowed to pick and choose those who they want to serve?
    The "government" (the feds) simply legislated that businesses cannot discriminate against the disabled, then issued guidelines on how to do that to hopefully reduce the number of lawsuits about it. And local & state governments do have to abide by those guidelines, too, not just the private sector.
    While I think that some interpretations of the guidelines can be unreasonable as applied (e.g. adding elevators can be really expensive in existing buildings) most are good for everyone, including the business, and relatively inexpensive.

  46. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by KGIII · · Score: 1

    In order those would be:

    RideZ, rYdes, Rods, and OUBDPHOUDH{DOJJC:SJKBPIB

    I am sorry. Really...

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  47. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    The government DOES provide it. They do so through legislation that requires hire car businesses to have a certain percentage of vehicles on the roads

    Oh, you mean slavery.

    So first you whine that the government isn't doing anything, now you whine because it is pointed out they are doing something and doing it in probably the most tax efficient manner.

  48. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Rockoon · · Score: 0

    But I sense that UberASSIST availability is severely limited...

    And we sense bullshit. You know why and how we sense it? Because you are using "sense" as an fucking argument for your Statist Fascist belief system.

    --
    "His name was James Damore."
  49. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    So the USSR has a history of electing Republican leadership? You know, the majority of the past 26 or so MA governors have all been Republicans.

    You misspelled "Progressives".

    It matters not whether there's an (R) or (D) by their name. Progressives believe there is no area of the private sector that could not use more government involvement and control.

    Progressives are the reason the US is in the sorry state it is and why individual liberty and private property rights are going the way of the Dodo bird in "the land of the free, home of the brave".

    Here's the darling of the Progressive movement, George Bernard Shaw. What he espouses in this video is one of the core beliefs of their ideology. They will deny it as it shows them for who they really are, but this way of thinking is one of the principles at the heart of Progressivism. Progressives cheered for the Nazis and the Italian fascists.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  50. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by CptPicard · · Score: 1

    The problem with that kind of reasoning is that most services in society actually are provided by private businesses, and rightfully so, as that kind of an arrangement comes with various benefits that you are certainly aware of. Not only is access inclusive, it will, in the long term cause the services to actually improve according to just who happens to do things better. We can of course discuss what the actual market mechanism is that is used to send the appropriate signals -- it does not need to be as ludicrously heavy-handed as some slashdot posters would like to make it sound like.

    I fail to see how some separate government arrangement is, in the modern world, any different from shoving disabled people back into bureaucratic institutions -- and at that point it is all too easy to start reducing the so-called "necessary" tax amount to maintain even that.

    At least over here in Europe I mostly do not see this kind of concern from businesses or business-minded individuals. The attitude mostly is that this is just something that is taken out of competition by just agreeing to take care of it, if by some kind of agreed upon standards if needed, and that's it.

    --
    I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  51. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by CptPicard · · Score: 1

    I am not sure if, if one really seeks a solution that inclusively works in the real world, you can break up these kinds of costs into separate components that you could then just tax people with. They just need to be a part of the big picture in a way that you can't just constantly "re-evaluate" in terms of whether they in particular have now become "too expensive".

    Integration into the services on the overall market is just simply more efficient. Certainly the cost is passed on to the consumer, but the providers will just keep on improving how they do whatever they do... this improves the entire service, accessibility included.

    --
    I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  52. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by CptPicard · · Score: 1

    Not necessarily. If the majority of people agree that, say, accessibility is desirable, be it whether they pay through taxes or some "hidden" cost, then it remains to decide what is the best way to implement the goal.

    If it is then agreed that the best way to get disabled people included in the world is to make sure that competition does not mean accessibility is sacrificed, then they might not be interested in getting this "tax signal" at all.

    --
    I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  53. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    I also sense you cannot come up with a rational response for a world that does not fit your desires, so you come up with an emotional one.

    Exactly what is my belief system? Seem like you are working with insufficient information on that as well.

  54. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by CptPicard · · Score: 1

    There is a logic to it.

    - Pure market solution would not provide for this
    - Market solution with "guidance" is wrong as it interferes with the pure market solution
    - Government solution is wrong because it taxes people, but at least people see how they are being manhandled by government. It is also a worse solution, so we still prefer it because it is.... worse.

    --
    I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  55. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by CptPicard · · Score: 1

    What would you have done in case of catastrophic illness, or was that just a risk you were willing to take?

    --
    I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  56. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    If you lived in America more than about 6 years ago

    What would you have done in case of catastrophic illness, or was that just a risk you were willing to take?

    Wasn't that the time of Theodoric of York, medieval barber? In case of catastrophic illness, break out the leeches.

  57. Re: No surprised in good ole Mass... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    Acceptable risk. At 25 you're immortal.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  58. Re: No surprised in good ole Mass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks for the link. Will try to give it a watch later.

  59. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

    It was the reactionaries like you who cheered for the Nazis and it was the big business who funded Hitler because of his anticommunist platform. And the first thing Hitler did after he rose to power, was to arrest all progressives (SPD and KPD members).

    You should stay with playing guitar and not talking about things you apparently have no idea of.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  60. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    It was the reactionaries like you who cheered for the Nazis

    No, history clearly shows it was the Progressives and their fellow-travelers in the US.

    and it was the big business who funded Hitler because of his anticommunist platform.

    IBM did business with Germany along with others, but "funded Hitler" as in supplying him with large amounts of cash donations as you imply? Fantasy.

    And the first thing Hitler did after he rose to power, was to arrest all progressives (SPD and KPD members).

    The SPD and KPD were socialist and communist political parties respectively, from the former Wiemar Republic.

    In the Weimar Republic the left consisted of the Communists (KPD) and the Social Democrats (SPD). The Center consisted of the Democratic party (DDP), the Catholic Center Party (Z) and the Peopleâ(TM)s Party (DVP). The right consisted of the German Nationalist Party (DNVP) and the National Socialist Party (NSDAP-Nazi). Unlike American political parties, German political parties had narrower bases of support generally based on class, occupation and religion. They were therefore less inclined to compromise and more inclined to have programs based on clear sets of ideas (ideologies).

    https://www.facinghistory.org/...

    They had nothing to do with the US Progressive movement. Unless you're saying US Progressives are actually socialists and communists, which does have more than a grain of truth to it.

    You should stay with playing guitar and not talking about things you apparently have no idea of.

    That *I* have no idea of!? You spout other people's history-rewriting talking points without any citations and without thinking for yourself.

    Go away with your juvenile insults. Adults are talking here.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  61. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by packrat0x · · Score: 1

    The government DOES provide it. They do so through legislation that requires hire car businesses to have a certain percentage of vehicles on the roads

    Oh, you mean slavery.

    So first you whine that the government isn't doing anything, now you whine because it is pointed out they are doing something and doing it in probably the most tax efficient manner.

    Are you saying that slavery is the most tax efficient manner to provide government services?

    --
    227-3517
  62. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

    No, history clearly shows it was the Progressives and their fellow-travelers in the US.

    Progressives like Henry Ford?

    IBM did business with Germany along with others, but "funded Hitler" as in supplying him with large amounts of cash donations as you imply? Fantasy.

    That only shows your lack of historical knowledge. Hitler was funded by Thyssen, Borsig, Krupp and several other German industrialists yearning for "good old times". There was also support from abroad, like donations from Vickers-Armstrong (UK) and Comitee des Forges (France).

    I am German, I know our history very well and all of this is even highschool-level stuff that doesn't go very deep. If you do go deeper, it gets far worse.

    The SPD and KPD were socialist and communist political parties respectively, from the former Wiemar Republic.

    Weimar, not Wiemar. Why do you Americans have such a large problem with the "ei" diphthong?
    And of course they were progressives. A progressive is someone who wants to change things for the better. All socialists are progressive. Ther opposite are reactionaries, who want to either keep the status quo or revert to what they consider "good old times".

    They had nothing to do with the US Progressive movement. Unless you're saying US Progressives are actually socialists and communists, which does have more than a grain of truth to it.

    Some US progressives are indeed socialists or communists. Never heard of CPUSA? Your Democratic party are kinda sorta social democrats of a very tame variety.

    That *I* have no idea of!? You spout other people's history-rewriting talking points without any citations and without thinking for yourself.

    No idea indeed. Now go and educate yourself first before you call others childish.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  63. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    I am German, I know our history very well and all of this is even highschool-level stuff that doesn't go very deep.

    Yet, you provide no links to citations.

    Weimar, not Wiemar. Why do you Americans have such a large problem with the "ei" diphthong?

    Auto-correct sucks sometimes. Sorry I did not catch it. Auto-correct insists it's Wiemar. It's not Americans in particular. Thanks for the sweeping generalization, though. Very Progressive of you.

    And of course they were progressives.

    There are more than one group who call themselves Progressives. Why do Europeans fail to realize that their political and ideological groupings and distinctions are not the only ones that exist? It's the same sort of difference that Europeans are so quick to point out between US and European understanding of Left and Right when they claim that Leftists in the US are far to the right of Europeans on the Right.

    A progressive is someone who wants to change things for the better. All socialists are progressive.

    Here you attempt to define Socialism as those who want to change things "for the better". Better for those in power, perhaps. Better for the common citizen? Hardly. History shows us that socialism assures equal misery for all by setting the "equality" at the lowest common denominator. Socialism and communism have resulted in the largest mass atrocities and acts of genocide the modern world has ever known, far outdoing the Nazis.

    The US Progressive movement has no relation to the dictionary definition of progress/progressive that you trotted out.

    Some US progressives are indeed socialists or communists. Never heard of CPUSA? Your Democratic party are kinda sorta social democrats of a very tame variety.

    Here we can mostly agree, although US Progressives themselves scream bloody murder if anyone actually calls them socialists/communists or socialist/communist-like.

    No idea indeed. Now go and educate yourself first before you call others childish.

    I would suggest you educate yourself before attempting to treat others as inferiors.

    *I* am childish and attempt to treat others as inferiors!?!? May I remind you who started the personal attack?

    You should stay with playing guitar and not talking about things you apparently have no idea of.

    I was not the one who reached for an ad hominem attack in my initial reply and came across as a pseudo-intellectual gasbag with delusions of superiority as you did.

    I am done with you, as it's apparent your ego and Euro-superiority complex does not allow you to participate in an honest adult discussion.

    Good day, Sir!

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  64. Re: No surprised in good ole Mass... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Except that everybody's covered for emergency medical services. If you show up at an emergency room with an expensive problem, they have to stabilize you before they can discharge you. They'll try to collect money for it, but in general they won't collect anywhere near their expenses.

    This drives up all hospital costs, since the hospitals have to build into their prices the idea that they won't get nearly all the money they invoice for. If you walk into the emergency room with a bad heart attack or get carried in with a bad injury, and you have insurance with a high deductible, the hospital is only on the hook for the deductible, which they have a halfway reasonable chance of collecting (at least a significant part of).

    Since there's a law that says you have emergency care, what's the problem with a law that says you have to cover it? Consider the penalty for not having an acceptable plan to be a replacement for that insurance.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  65. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    They can contract with, or employ, enough drivers to cover this. It will cost them a little more, most likely, but that's a requirement of running a taxi business.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  66. Re:No surprised in good ole Mass... by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

    slavery is actually very efficient. But that isn't what they are doing. Governments should not be directly engaging in business, the most efficient mechanism though hated by many is regulation as it puts equal requirements on everyone while not making the government a direct competitor to business.