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How Pentaquarks May Lead To the Discovery of New Fundamental Physics

StartsWithABang writes: Over 100 years ago, Rutherford's gold foil experiment discovered the atomic nucleus. At higher energies, we can split that nucleus apart into protons and neutrons, and at still higher ones, into individual quarks and gluons. But these quarks and gluons can combine in amazing ways: not just into mesons and baryons, but into exotic states like tetraquarks, pentaquarks and even glueballs. As the LHC brings these states from theory to reality, here's what we're poised to learn, and probe, by pushing the limits of quantum chromodynamics.

65 comments

  1. medium.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

    1. Re:medium.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, it's the Satan Particle.

  2. ask slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does this relate to string theory ?

    1. Re:ask slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more like G-String theory.

    2. Re:ask slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How does this relate to string theory ?

      It doesn't.

      This is real science.

    3. Re:ask slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So is String Theory.

    4. Re:ask slashdot by donaggie03 · · Score: 1

      Based on the the fact you called GP a "denier moron" it makes me wonder if you understand what the A in AGW stands for.

      --
      Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
    5. Re:ask slashdot by LaurenCates · · Score: 1

      Or maybe string cheese theory?

      Mmmmm...string cheese...

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    6. Re:ask slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, why? And how does calling the GP a moron lead you to that doubt?

      Oh, by the way, yes I do know what A stands for in AGW. So your doubt is falsely justified in any case.

    7. Re:ask slashdot by donaggie03 · · Score: 1

      Turns out it was *I* who didn't know what the A stood for. When I replied to your post I was thinking it stood for 'Anti' as in Anti-global-warming. Add that to the fact you called GP a denier moron and you can see my confusion. Note my emphasis was on your use of the word denier, not moron.

      --
      Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
    8. Re:ask slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You emphasised both, dearie.

      And why the hell do you think AGW was "Anti Global Warming"? When the hell was that EVER an initialism? Seems like you're a moron too.

    9. Re:ask slashdot by donaggie03 · · Score: 1

      Ok. I hope you feel better now.

      --
      Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
  3. Actually, you CAN'T do that by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At higher energies, we can split that nucleus apart into protons and neutrons, and at still higher ones, into individual quarks

    In one sense that seems to be something you really can't do. The force between free quarks increases with distance to about 10,000N, then remains constant (no, I have no idea how this makes any sense, but it's what I read). Any force sufficient to tear two quarks apart is sufficient to generate new quarks which then bind with the "free" quarks. So you never see quarks by themselves.

    IANAP, though. Does the above really mean that if you had two free quarks separated by a kilometre or a light year, that there would still be that constant 10,000N force between them?

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    1. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Carewolf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      At higher energies, we can split that nucleus apart into protons and neutrons, and at still higher ones, into individual quarks

      In one sense that seems to be something you really can't do. The force between free quarks increases with distance to about 10,000N, then remains constant (no, I have no idea how this makes any sense, but it's what I read). Any force sufficient to tear two quarks apart is sufficient to generate new quarks which then bind with the "free" quarks. So you never see quarks by themselves.

      IANAP, though. Does the above really mean that if you had two free quarks separated by a kilometre or a light year, that there would still be that constant 10,000N force between them?

      Plus that we are not even sure quarks are individual things. They might just be eigenvalues of particle properties, nice to calculate on, but not necessarily anything real in themselves.

    2. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Any force sufficient to tear two quarks apart is sufficient to generate new quarks which then bind with the "free" quarks.

      Sounds like the War on Terrorism in a microscopic edition. Fractal universe confirmed!

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's how they managed overflow in the simulator in which we are running.

    4. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The top quark can exist without hadronizing, so the properties of "naked" quarks can be studied. Not sure if just an eigenvector can explain that.

    5. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by fizassist · · Score: 4, Informative

      In one sense that seems to be something you really can't do. The force between free quarks increases with distance to about 10,000N, then remains constant (no, I have no idea how this makes any sense, but it's what I read).

      IAAP, and you can "separate" a nucleon into constituent quarks in a sense. You're right in that you can't take them a kilometer apart because of the range behavior of the strong nuclear force that you cite. Instead, you create extremely high energy density region that makes the nucleons lose their identity, and the constituent quarks are free to interact with each other (a Quark-Gluon Plasma). This is done by colliding heavy ions, which creates a high energy density region that has some extent to it (as opposed to proton-proton collisions). The quarks can then "condense" out of this plasma into exotic things like pentaquarks.

    6. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They might just be eigenvalues of particle properties, nice to calculate on, but not necessarily anything real in themselves.

      And how is this any less real than anything else in physics? Does the model work or not? If there is some way to distinguish the model from reality, than the model doesn't work. However, if the model can't be found to be wrong in any way, you're stuck with the philosophy 101 issue of "What is real?", but as far as science is concerned, it is as real as it can get within science.

    7. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Informative

      You can't ever get two quarks very far apart. That property arises because the gluon, the force carrier for the strong force, has a strong charge of it's own. That's as if photons were electrically charged. When two quarks exchange virtual gluons the gluons exchange virtual gluons with everything around as well. The bigger the distance between the quarks, the more space for colour charged gluons between them, so the stronger the force.

      When you pull two quarks further and further apart, at some point it's energetically favourable for a couple of virtual quarks to pop into existence and you end up with a couple of mesons instead of two free quarks. That's what happens in accelerators: nobody ever sees quarks, they see sprays of particles that indicate a hadron was blown apart and the constituent quarks then reformed into hadrons.

      It's called colour confinement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    8. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      "You can't ever get two quarks very far apart. That property arises because the gluon, the force carrier for the strong force, has a strong charge of it's own. "

      If you tried to separate "it" from "is", will the force generate new apostrophes?

    9. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The force between free quarks increases with distance to about 10,000N, then remains constant (no, I have no idea how this makes any sense, but it's what I read).

      According to Wikipedia it's because gluons, which mediate the Strong Force interaction between quarks, also feel said force themselves (that is, they carry color charge(. So rather than disperse with distance like, say, photons do, they tend to stick together and form "ropes".

      So it's analogous to how a flashlight loses power faster than a laser.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      What is a real individual thing? In the end, if we can model it and we can measure it, it's about as real as anything in our world can be.

    11. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      "You can't ever get two quarks very far apart. That property arises because the gluon, the force carrier for the strong force, has a strong charge of it's own. "

      If you tried to separate "it" from "is", will the force generate new apostrophes?

      Pedantry AND wit - what is /. coming to?

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    12. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by HiThere · · Score: 1

      No, because sometimes several different models will fit all the available information. E.g., I prever the EGW multi-world interpretation of quantum physics, but the Copenhagen interpretation fits all the data just as well, and so do a few others...including such useless ones as "SuperPredestinationsim", "Solipsism", and "God is doing at all, and fudges things whenever he notices you're doing an experiment".

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    13. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, because sometimes several different models will fit all the available information

      No, not sometimes, there are always multiple ways of explaining things. The issue of what is real or not is nontrivial and a major question in philosophy. That said, there is nothing special about the situation with quarks at this point that makes the more or less real than something like electrons and atoms.

    14. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Spinalcold · · Score: 1

      Interpretations of QM's is not science since they can not be tested (as of yet, I hope it can be some day). However the different models of atoms can and have been tested very well and QCD's has fit the data to an amazing precision. I'm sure there are competing theories but I have never heard of any that fit the data this well. btw, I'm a fan of the many worlds interpretation as well. Took me a long time to come around to it, thought it was just a curiosity at first, but eventually I saw the beauty of it. You don't need to add anything else to QMs it just pops right out of the science.

    15. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      IAAP and your mostly correct. However the force is no where near 10kN. However lets assume 1N, with 1m of seperation that is 1J of energy. Or enough energy to produce about a billion protons. So yea true separation distance are small before more quarks are created.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    16. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The satellite UFO privacy data remains classified, however the anonymous unclassified secure shell ionosphere data-haven remains invisible to cryptanalysis. According to our favorite chameleon man, the Zen encryption keyhole remains limited to only our unique echelon despite Black knights best efforts! The interception of the chaining codes was a small speed bump, but they have been played off as, “random radio bursts” and cannot be classified until NEO 5. On the Grey boy front we continue to fuel the rumors of strife, and all of the “leaked” information remains, and only reinforces, the propaganda fodder for the perception that is within the realms of “science fiction nut jobs”. Bubba the love sponges guppy mole protocol has successfully begun transmitting global memes based on the current terran zeitgeist by region. This timing is being handled by Reflection, and pink noise. Replay redhead has shown

      Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    17. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as of yet, I hope it can be some day).

      The reason they got labeled "interpretations" is they are all still based on the same math, that makes the same predictions. In order for there to be a testable prediction that would differentiate them, an extension to QM or a conflict with QM that still supports one of the interpretations would need to be found.

    18. Re:Actually, you CAN'T do that by smaddox · · Score: 1

      The Everettian interpretation is certainly better than the Copenhagen interpretation, since it doesn't raise the measurement problem; however, it's no where near as simple (in the Occam's razor sort of way) as the Bohmian interpretation.

      However, I think the history of physics should teach us that different interpretations are often different facets of the same thing. Compare Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics, for example. They are both accurate (at least for our universe), but quite different in their approach and interpretation. However, they are unified in that they are dependent on conservation laws. A unified theory should be approachable from both directions, and possibly other directions as well. It also turns out that one is often easier to apply than the other in certain situations, and thus both approaches are useful.

      Perhaps there is a bit of truth in each of the QM interpretations.

  4. Not a summary by dinfinity · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is not a summary, but a teaser. Let's keep that kind of bullshit off Slashdot.

    Actual summary:
    "Recently, the existence of pentaquarks, predicted by quantum chromodynamics, was confirmed. This sortof validates quantum chromodynamics. [Intro to quantum chromodynamics]. We could find many more particles predicted by quantum chromodynamics in the future!"

    1. Re:Not a summary by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 2

      It's really irritating when you read these articles where the authors treat hypothetical particles and real particles interchangeably, worse when you get tables full of them intermixed.

    2. Re:Not a summary by tomxor · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...where the authors treat hypothetical particles and theoretical particles interchangeably...

      FTFY

    3. Re:Not a summary by LaurenCates · · Score: 2

      You got your hypothesis in my theory!

      You got your theory in my hypothesis!

      Alas, the end result isn't a Reese's cup.

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    4. Re:Not a summary by cgold · · Score: 1

      Scientists discover pentaquarks, and what happens next will blow your mind!

    5. Re:Not a summary by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Mmmm Reese's.

      Darn you!

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    6. Re:Not a summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not a summary, but a teaser. Let's keep that kind of bullshit off Slashdot.

      Indeed, lets.

      I did my share and voted it down in the firehose.

      Did you do your share and vote this story down? Or do you just expect computers and/or others with differing opinions to know yours and enforce it for you to your expectations? :P

    7. Re:Not a summary by Spinalcold · · Score: 1

      This is a 9 Sigma result, far FAR higher than the Higgs. The summary is stating that exotic matter does exist but we don't know what kinds. Can glueballs exist? What other combinations are out there to be found?

  5. Anyone know why this moron does this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there some internet meme I've missed at play here, or is it just a moron poster who *loves* cows??

    1. Re:Anyone know why this moron does this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's just a very lonely person, afaik.

    2. Re:Anyone know why this moron does this? by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Some researcher connected a cow's brain to the internet and gave it a Slashdot account.

    3. Re:Anyone know why this moron does this? by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Some researcher connected a cow's brain to the internet and gave it a Slashdot account.

      Well, that would explain the editors...

    4. Re:Anyone know why this moron does this? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Some researcher connected a cow's brain to the internet and gave it a Slashdot account.

      Well, that would explain the editors...

      Bit harsh on cows though.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  6. Oh no I got the glubola! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (La la la la la)
    (La la la la la)
    (La la la la la)
    (La la la la la)
    Rucka Rucka Ali

    I tell you where it's from
    Physics
    That's from where glubola comes
    West side
    It hides in the suitcase
    Two days later
    It lands in USA
    I get it from my girlfriend
    And give it to my dad
    I catch it on the subway
    And leave it in the cab
    I eat it at Subway
    I drink it at Starbucks
    glubola's everywhere
    And I give no fucks

    They scared
    It's bad
    glubola's gonna kill us all dead
    They mad
    How'd this happen
    Gotta make sure that nobody else gets it

    I'm sorry but you have it and I have it
    But you'll get it so forget it
    Don't sweat it just let it be
    I'm telling you glubola's not the enemy
    Listen

    I have glubo (La la la la la)
    And you have glubo (La la la la la)
    And we have glubo (La la la la la)
    Everybody has glubo (La la la la la)
    Selena has glubo (La la la la la)
    Justin has glubo (La la la la la)
    Taylor has glubo (La la la la la)
    Jesus has glubo (La la la la la)
    glubola

    Every shitty little collider in CERN
    Has glubola
    Every city in America is getting it now
    Just go with it bruh

    Airports
    Check if he's geek
    He could have glubola
    So send him back
    In fact keep an eye
    On the Marie Curie
    Mostly Curie
    Don't worry about Marie
    And the Hawking's
    Could have glubola
    Also Bill Nye
    Let's just close up Fermi
    Until this crisis is contained
    Don't let the Tyson's
    On the plane ...

  7. A model of a measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    "They might just be eigenvalues of particle properties, nice to calculate on, but not necessarily anything real in themselves."

    Well that describes the proton surely? Prior to 'deep inelastic scattering' experiment, the proton was believed to a fundamental particle and QM was applied and QM believers referred to the proton being detected as at a position. That "the proton is everywhere till we detect it at a location and that fixes its location" nonsense*.

    Post DIS, we know that its not fundamental, rather made of sub-particles, hypothesized as Quarks (to fit observed data) and later added to to better fit observed data. So the proton was never 'at' the detected location, it was only *detected* to be at that location by the effect of these quarks on the detector. i.e. a proton is " not necessarily anything real in themselves" as you put it.

    So much for QM.

    Quarks are IMHO too complex a model and given every particle exists with an anti-particle and the only difference is the charge, then you're better off looking for just two particles, a + and a -. But that's just my opinion.

    * Because its a way to explain a conflict in physics: single indivisible particles, that jump around randomly based on probabilistic math. But the basic model is comic, it assumes something special about *our* detection of the particle different from its interaction with every other piece of matter it interacts with. Of course there is nothing special about 'our' detection. Thus the model is flawed.

    The probalistic maths is from observation, so the indivisible particle must be the flaw, and that's already been shown with a proton. i.e. QM is just a flock of starlings seen through a detector that can only see the flock.

    1. Re:A model of a measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      * Because its a way to explain a conflict in physics: single indivisible particles, that jump around randomly based on probabilistic math. But the basic model is comic, it assumes something special about *our* detection of the particle different from its interaction with every other piece of matter it interacts with. Of course there is nothing special about 'our' detection. Thus the model is flawed.

      This isn't true of QM or particle physics, and the idea that a detector is special compared to other matter only comes up in pop-sci and other superficial misinterpretations of the actual theories.

      The probalistic maths is from observation, so the indivisible particle must be the flaw, and that's already been shown with a proton.

      Although thought experiments about observation produced the original uncertainty principle and some associated ideas, for decades now a lot more work has shown that the probabilistic nature is far more fundamental or that reality has to be much weirder in other ways.

      QM is just a flock of starlings seen through a detector that can only see the flock.

      Except that the same reasoning that shows the proton is made of smaller parts would conclude that other particles we look at are fundamental on any scale we reach currently, and that all present experiments would involve the interaction with the particle as a whole. If you don't want to believe how scattering and detection results say something like the electron doesn't have parts, you can't go around acting like the proton is so obviously made of parts, because it is the same reasoning you've already tried to discount.

    2. Re:A model of a measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh dearie me, it's Mr. "Qwark" Starlings.... What is it with you and starlings?

    3. Re:A model of a measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This gets modded up even though more than half of what is said is flat out wrong?

  8. Quantum Chromodynamics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My wife is a particle physicist, a staff member at one of the top physics labs in the world. We used to go to Lake Victoria in the Canadian Rockies every year for an international conference on that subject. I'd spend the day skiing. She'd spend the day in meetings! :-) Fortunately, the conference sessions were only in the mornings and evenings, so we had the afternoons free for cross-country skiing together.

    1. Re:Quantum Chromodynamics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So the fuck what?

    2. Re:Quantum Chromodynamics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Story would have been better if the afternoons were spent fucking. Or, at the least, playing with your hadron.

    3. Re:Quantum Chromodynamics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was there too. Those weren't physics meetings she did all day. Did she walk funny after these "meetings" and call out the wrong name during sex??

  9. Re:A is for anthropocentric. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Like "Soylent Green is people" I thought everyone knew that.
    http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/F...

  10. Re:Quantum Chromodynamics and Glueballs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My balls are glued for the continuation of this story. It could be made to a nice catastrophe movie, with developing characters, emotional content and all.

  11. 'Particles"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A bunch of waves knocked off a larger bunch of waves.

  12. I read all the words by raxtich · · Score: 1

    ..but I have no idea what any of it means.

  13. Re:Pentaquarks are for five cows. by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1

    THERE ARE NOT 5 QUARKS, BUT 20 QUARKS ROTATING THROUGH 4 24-HOUR DAYS IN THE 4 CORNER CUBE EARTH. SCIENCE EDUCATES YOU STUPID. YOU BELIEVE IN CHILD-KILLER GOD PARTICLE. LEAVE CHILD ALONE IN ROOM WITH GOD PARTICLE; CHILD DIES OF STARVATION. YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND 20 QUARKS BECAUSE YOU THINK 1+1=2 INSTEAD OF 1+1=8. THIS IS WHY GOD EATS YOUR CHILDREN AND SHITS YOUR 5 QUARKS INTO SCHOOL KIDS FROM THE SCHOOLTEACHER'S DIRTY MOUTH.

    --
    "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
  14. Gadgets by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    Early discoveries and hypotheses on small stuff have led to immense improvements in chemistry and electronics, and the development of nuclear power. Is there even a hint of a notion that this sort of work is going to lead to something practical? If so, what?

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    1. Re:Gadgets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. Keep in mind the discoveries you speak of, those that led to all those technologies, were essentially made in a few years in the 1920s-1930s. After the discovery of the neutron, you'd think we'd be up in our armpits in nuclear reactors??

  15. "Individual Quarks" by Pope+Raymond+Lama · · Score: 1

    TFS lost me right there. There is No Such Thing(tm)

    --
    -><- no .sig is good sig.