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Sun Tzu 2.0: The Future of Cyberwarfare

An anonymous reader writes: Cyberwar and its ramifications have been debated for some time and the issue has been wrought with controversy. Few would argue that cyber-attacks are not prevalent in cyberspace. However, does it amount to a type of warfare? Let's break this down by drawing parallels from a treatise by 6th century military general, Sun Tzu, who authored one of the most definitive handbooks on warfare, "The Art of War." His writings have been studied throughout the ages by professional militaries and can be used to not only answer the question of whether or not we are in a cyberwar, but how one can fight a cyber-battle.

43 of 77 comments (clear)

  1. Imagine by invictusvoyd · · Score: 1

    If Sun Tzu had one of those shiny new laptops !

  2. Know thyself... by GoonDuIO · · Score: 3, Insightful

    and know your enemy's secrets and you will win a hundred battles. Or a hundred blackmails. You know what, forget about the 'thyself' bit, just know your enemy's dirty laundry.

    1. Re:Know thyself... by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The "knowing yourself" part is to know your own security vulnerabilities, capabilities etc. Knowing your enemy's dirty laundry is fine only if they don't know yours. The essence of that Sunzi quote is about winning decisively at little to no cost to yourself. Winning a hundred battles is hard if you have nothing to fight with after the first battle, and knowing where you stand (and that you can stand) after any number of battles is key.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    2. Re:Know thyself... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sun Tzu was saying exactly that.

      The rest of that goes something like "know your enemy but not yourself and you will always be defeated"

      His point was that you have to know your own strengths and weaknesses as well as those of your enemy.

      So you can exploit your enemies weakness while not wasting effort attacking their strengths head on. But at the same time protecting yourself by looking strong where you are weak and weak where you are strong so your opponent wastes their effort where it does nothing.

      If you don't know your where you are weak you can't protect yourself. And if you don't know where your enemy is weak you don't know what to target.

    3. Re: Know thyself... by Archtech · · Score: 1

      Indeed, looking at the current situation in China, I'd say the West is doing a pretty fine job of letting them wallow in their own corruption right now.

      Matthew 7:3-5 https://www.biblegateway.com/p...

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  3. Re:You don't fight "cyberbattles". by Visarga · · Score: 1

    You don't need millions of programmers, just a few good ones. There will always be some with courage (ex: Snowden).

  4. Cyberwar and how one can fight a cyber-battle .. by nickweller · · Score: 1

    "Cyberwar and its ramifications have been debated for some time and the issue has been wrought with controversy"

    No serious techie uses 'cyber' in a sentence. If you do want to go online and stay safe from hacking, then buy a computer that can't be compromised by opening an email attachment or clicking on a malicious URL (Uniform Resource Locator).

  5. If it is some kind of war by Lennie · · Score: 2

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's closest to a guerrilla war.

    It's hard to recognize the attackers before and after the battle, they are part of the crowd.

    With Anonymous and these other groups from for example Russia or Arabic countries, they might have no (direct) affiliation with any state. Just the 'cause'.

    --
    New things are always on the horizon
    1. Re:If it is some kind of war by steelwraith · · Score: 1

      "I wouldn't be surprised if it's closest to a guerrilla war."

      Exactly. Sun Tzu did have some aspects of asymmetric warfare in TAOW, but Mr. Herberger is making sweeping generalizations based on an out-moded concept of warfare. TAOW was based in a time where only larger entities (political or economic) had the capacity to project force at a scale larger than just the immediately local, if just for logistical reasons. In the space that electronic warfare will take place (because cyberspace is more then just the internet) we have the equivalent of redneck militias wielding nuclear weapons. One person with the right tools, at the right time, with the right information can bring cities to collapse from the other side of the planet and may never be implicated if they are skilled enough.

      Scaling that up to the nation state level you get things like 'cyber-kill-chain'. It actually becomes less efficient to conduct operations at that level due to a number of factors. Electronic warfare will be conducted by something akin to Operation Screaming Fist in Neuromancer.

  6. Poppycock! by Lurks · · Score: 2

    This really is a load of crap. Extract a bunch of fairly obvious stratagems from a received text, an English translation of generally dubious worth, and apply it to cyber warfare.... unsurprisingly it fails to stack up particularly well. Sunzi was almost exclusively fixed on the idea that armies were controlled by single entities and that virtually all actions under taken by them had cost, and thus could be factored in a set of trade-offs, or expert application of game theory, before game theory was a thing. It was insightful at the time, to say the least, it can still be useful to state the more obvious strategems of any conflict but to claim relevance today where the agents existiing in dramatically different contexts is weak sauce indeed. Sunzi, in particular, would be horrified that any engagement would essentially exist in perpetuity, if the sunzi bingfa (art of war) was indeed written by one person, then he would be horrified by the layout of modern cyber warfare, and would certainly be quite unable to add anything to the idea that one may have to defend against any number of actors, each of which potentially using different strategies at virtually no cost..

    1. Re:Poppycock! by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Where do you get the idea that Sunzi was fixated on the idea of armies controlled by a single entity? He explicitly states, in one instance, that the generals on the field can disobey a prince. Sunzi's idea of war was about coordination of multiple entities each doing their own thing to win a war.

      And I contest that contexts are dramatically different. The contexts for tactics may be different, but overall strategies are still the same. Identify weak spots while hide or disguise your own. Borrow your enemies resources to attack them. Usage of spies. etc etc. The main reason why Sunzi was opposed to protracted warfare was the cost to the citizens. If what you say is true, that costs in cyberwarfare are negligible, then that concern of Sunzi doesn't apply. However, given how much money has to be spent on something like the NSA and still be completely ineffective, then your critique is wrong and the concern of protracted warfare does apply and the strategies to suit.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    2. Re:Poppycock! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      True. No single English translation will ever fully capture the "Bing Fa". ("Strategic methodologies" would be an alternative rendition.) The Denma group's translation is arguably the closest so far, but you need to read a few different versions, really.

      Plus there's actually another 7 ancient Chinese books on war and strategy, including the Sun Bin (possibly a descendent of Sun Wu) which was rediscovered in the early 70s. Just focusing on the Sun Tzu and shoehorning it into every situation is simplistic at best.

      That said, there's not really anything else that comes close to it. Clausewitz is a mess, Machiavelli's "Art of War" is of its time. (Musashi's worth a read, though.)

      Something else that's usually overlooked is that the Sun Tzu is a very Daoist text. Reading it without understanding such context is doubly simplistic. Change and adaptation is central to his philosophy. So yes, if he were alive today, he'd probably be first to point out that it's not going to apply to modern circumstances.

    3. Re:Poppycock! by gtall · · Score: 1

      "given how much money has to be spent on something like the NSA and still be completely ineffective,"

      And you know this? How? They've been sending you memos?

    4. Re:Poppycock! by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Why don't you read the news. Luckily, you're on a news site where I'm sure this fact has been reported many times.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    5. Re:Poppycock! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Luckily, you're on a news site where I'm sure this fact has been reported many times.

      Opinion. Not fact.

      Note that if NSA is doing its job properly, you'll never hear about its successes. So it could be 99.9% successful and fail 0.1% of the time, and you'd still hear about nothing but its failures in the news.

      Likewise, of course, for 0.1% success and 99.9% failure.

      Which is why any information about the NSA's functionality is an opinion. Even if it's promulgated by Congress, President, NSA head, whatever (since all of them have reasons to lie about it - if you KNOW it's doing it's job well, telling everyone it's not is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing)...

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    6. Re:Poppycock! by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      If they were doing a good job, Snowden would not have been able to leak.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    7. Re:Poppycock! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Note that if NSA is doing its job properly, you'll never hear about its successes.

      Don't we hear about foiled terrorist plots and infiltrated groups all the time?

      Also, one might argue that as an institution in a democratic society, NSA isn't doing its job properly unless you, the citizen, hear enough about its successes and failures to form an informed opinion about it. Because that's what democracy is: subjecting the institutions - both organizations and traditions - of the society to the will of the people.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    8. Re:Poppycock! by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 1

      Sunzi's idea of war was about coordination of multiple entities each doing their own thing to win a war.

      Exactly, that text was fixated in bridging the gap from second to third generation warfare and was still focused on massed maneuvers of infantry against well defined targets. The world saw first hand the pinnacle of that during the German Blitzkrieg and by the time the Cold War between the US and the USSR set in the it was done with it. Traditional war between super power states had set the barrier to entry too high for new players to enter in and so the Maoist model of warfare has become predominant. Everyone from the Viet Cong to Iran and ISIL have been following the doctrine of fourth generation warfare since then and "cyber-warfare" fits that strategy better than any other. This article is stupid because TAOW, although interesting enough to read, is no longer applicable in today's world.

    9. Re:Poppycock! by lhowaf · · Score: 1

      This really is a load of crap.

      Absolutely! Applying The Art of War to cyberwarfare is pretty goofy. There are many actors with many motivations, targets, aspirations, strategies (or lack thereof) and tactics. The general principles can apply if you are focused on a particular opponent but are meaningless to "cyberwarfare" at large.

    10. Re:Poppycock! by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Again, no. The need for coordination does not necessarily translate to massed maneuvers. Sunzi was not concerned with tactics because they change with technology. Sunzi only discusses principles that applies regardless of the organization.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
  7. Re:not 6th century by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    That would in fact be the 6th Century (BC).

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  8. Re:You don't fight "cyberbattles". by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    A certain general would like to speak to you: http://www.brainyquote.com/quo...

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  9. Re:Depends on how you define warfare. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    Trust me, it reads better in the original Klingon.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  10. Only idiots trust computers that trust programs by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    If your operating system isn't smart enough to require a list of resources to feed a program you want it to run, you lose.

    If you built your entire civilization on such a stupid foundation, you lose.

    Anyone smarter than that can wipe you off the face of the earth, unless you can survive long enough to correct your deeply embedded mistake.

  11. Hasn't even begun to begin yet by Archtech · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer: Like many other, I abhor and reject all terms including "cyber" except "cyberspace" in its proper meaning (see William Gibson's novel "Neuromancer") which has very little in common with the Internet or any other present-day technology.

    That said, yes - "cyberwar" is entirely possible and would be immensely harmful. But no, we have not seen anything even slightly related to full-blown "cyberwar". If it happened, we would notice: trust me. It would blow the doors off computer systems most people have no idea exist: systems that give them power, light, water, network access (of course), banking, medical services, education, food, etc. etc. Our present posture in this respect is basically that of a person camping in the woods who has been told there are grizzly bears around, and whose response has been to tie himself up stark naked and hang himself from a tree at convenient nibbling height.

    It must have been about 20 years ago that I began lecturing and writing about the security risks of software systems. I always kept it as short and simple as I could, since I realize that security is not only very counter-intuitive but (to most people) appallingly boring. But I usually wound up with a warning: there were many threats, ranging from the trivial to the extremely serious; there was hardly any defence; and hardly anyone was taking the trouble or investing the resources to put up any defence at all. The only good news, I added, was that so far criminals had made no real efforts to exploit all the juicy vulnerabilities spread out before them. That wouldn't necessarily last, I warned.

    The same remarks, mutatis mutandis, apply to "cyberwar". It would cause far more harm than criminal exploitation, because the objective of war is to bring about complete defenselessness and unconditional surrender. Look at Iraq after the second Gulf war, and imagine that happening to all the IT infrastructure you know about (and that you don't know about). And, due to the design of the Internet and the amazingly insouciant carelessness of governments and corporations, our infrastructure is almost completely unprotected. What we have seen so far is analogous to a few spies and skirmishers probing the most obvious weaknesses. They have deliberately refrained from even hinting at what they could really do, because (as Sun Tzu pointed out)

    "Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where he has taken no precautions".

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:Hasn't even begun to begin yet by Archtech · · Score: 1

      As so often before, Henry Baker sums up the issue to perfection:

      "Once again, in our asymmetric world, people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks—especially at those who don't live in glass houses". http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks...

      It's quite certain that, of all the nations in the world, the USA has far more to lose from "cyberwar" than any other.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    2. Re:Hasn't even begun to begin yet by Archtech · · Score: 1

      Alas and dammit, that link should be http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks...

      Please pardon my incompetence.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    3. Re:Hasn't even begun to begin yet by Opyros · · Score: 1

      Like many other, I abhor and reject all terms including "cyber" except "cyberspace" in its proper meaning

      What about "cybernetics"?

    4. Re:Hasn't even begun to begin yet by MagickalMyst · · Score: 1

      "I abhor and reject all terms including "cyber""

      That reminds me of a business teacher that I once had. She told the class that any business with the word "cyber" in it would simply fail - which I found ridiculous.

      ...especially since I had just left a company who used that word in their business name and was a multi-million dollar e-commerce company.

      --
      Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
    5. Re:Hasn't even begun to begin yet by Archtech · · Score: 1

      OK, it's a fair cop guv'nor.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    6. Re:Hasn't even begun to begin yet by Archtech · · Score: 1

      The teacher's assertion was different from mine. I said that I don't like such words. She made a statement about what kind of business would succeed or fail. Her mistake was to neglect the published views of such luminaries as:

      "You’ll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public".
      - Phineas T Barnum (Barnum’s Law)

      "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public".
      - H. L. Mencken

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  12. Re:You don't fight "cyberbattles". by Archtech · · Score: 1

    I'm not convinced. History is full of instances to the contrary: cases in which a general failed because his army was too big for him to control. Indeed, there is a well-known story about a war in which the leading general of Nation A was warned that Nation B's commander-in-chief had 50,000 soldiers whereas Nation A had only 20,000. Nation A's general smiled and relaxed. "Why are you acting so pleased to hear that you are outnumbered two-and-a-half to one?" asked his alarmed subordinates. "Ah, I know General X," he replied. Given 10,000 men he is very competent. I think he could just about handle 20,000. But given 50,000 he will spend all his time trying to keep track and get organized. While he is doing that, we shall move in quickly and defeat him. It will be easy".

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  13. you can't win by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    if your enemy doesn't like you on their networks, they can always disconnect or turn off their machines.

    the only way to win is not to play.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  14. Re:You don't fight "cyberbattles". by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Cyber-attacks, cyberspace are just a fancy way for wealthy US contractors to get more/new no bid funding and enjoy decades of wealth creation with new terms and sales.
    It depends how a nations understands its strengths.
    The US hopes the other side will always have a cell/sat phone, voice print, home computer, travel, be in CCTV range.
    That political leaders can be contacted and make coup offers or let US "advisers" enter ie
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
    The Soviet Union, East Germany would study the outside life of the mil/gov staff members of interest and look for lifestyle choices that would make then open to some interaction or create their own Western staff over decades.
    Once established a turned person can stay in place for years, even selecting projects.
    The UK perfected both technical and human options thanks to its skill sets needed in Ireland and tracking all Irish funding from the US.
    Whats the best small nation, low cost system? GCHQ, MI6, SAS. That gives a nation the broad digital propaganda narrative, with that perfect personal covert in country touch when needed.
    Re the submissions "Few would argue that cyber-attacks are not prevalent in cyberspace."
    What is cyberspace to a nation, cult, faith, idea, flag? Propaganda, shills, sock puppets have to actually know what they are doing pre culture, pre coup.
    Most nations and their wider, educated diasporas are very resistant to such "cyber" efforts. Color revolutions with outside funding soon fail.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  15. He's trying to argue a specific side and failing by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

    He posts a point like "intended target must stay the same" or and then gives more support for the opposing side.
    I could easy take every one of his points and argue the exact opposite probably more effectively than him.
    Most of the cyber attacks today seem to be undirected from rogue disconnected parties with undefined or
    constantly changing goals and no way to achieve any sort of victory unless victory is defined as "causing chaos".

  16. Re: You don't fight "cyberbattles". by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

    There has been public outcry. People are talking about it. Laws are getting passed. Opinions are changing. Snowden is in exile for now but I don't think he'll stay that way forever.

    The US declared war on Germany on 12/11/41. It took two and a half years to land at Normandy. It's still 1943 and you're declaring Hitler victorious.

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  17. Re:not 6th century by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    Good thing you're a mind-reader, then, since I'm not.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  18. Out by a thousand years by bunbun68 · · Score: 1
    Minor (!) inaccuracy in the article: Sun Tzu did not live in the 6th century but the 6th century B.C.

    Off by more than a thousand years...

  19. Re:Cyber~ by GoonDuIO · · Score: 1

    We cyberneed to cyberallocate more cyberresources to our cyberwarriors cyberfighting these cybercriminals. Cyberwarfare is cyberserious cyberbusiness. CyberFTFcyberY. --Cyberdude

  20. Re:You don't fight "cyberbattles". by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    Ah yes, the "courage" to attack without warning and then run away and hide.

    It's only cowardly if the enemy or terrorists do it. If we do it, it's clever tactics.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  21. Re:Cyberwar and how one can fight a cyber-battle . by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    No serious techie uses 'cyber' in a sentence.

    That is the term being used by politicians and the military, so (as with "hacker") techies will just have to get used to the popular usage.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  22. Re:Depends on how you define warfare. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    Why didn't you just copy and paste the whole book? It would have been quicker and no one's going to read that wall of text anyway.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  23. Re:Cyberwar and how one can fight a cyber-battle . by nickweller · · Score: 1

    @tehcyder: "That is the term being used by politicians and the military, so (as with "hacker") techies will just have to get used to the popular usage."

    Only if you're happy to go into a room full of techies and sound totally stupid ..